PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5115, 15 August 1877, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 14. The Speaker took the chair at halfpast two o’clock. ' PETITIONS. Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition from the Thames that no Bill might be introduced into the House during the session to legalise the sale of intoxicating liquor on SunPetitions were also presented by Messrs. Wood; Mncfarlane, Sutton, Russell, Brown, Fox (from borough of Cromwell, in favor of Local Option Bill), Dr. Wallis, and others.- - Mr. SHEEHAN: presented a petition from Mr. G E. Barton, barrister, praying for an enquiry into the administration of justice in the Supreme Coiirt at Wellington, and that; should it be found .that rjustice had not been done in certain matters set forth, Chief Justice Brendergast and Justice Richmond might be removed from the Bench of the Court of New Zealand. He presented it with no feeling of bias in favor of the petitioner, but Hmply as a member of the House, and felt it his duty more especially as this was the only tribunal through which- a bsrristerqonld obtain redress in an, appeal from the Supreme Court. NOTICES OP MOTION. ■ The Hon. Mr. EOX gave notice of his intention to ask for the production of all instructions , in. reference to the suppression of gambling in public-houses. . , , Mr. REES gave notice that he would ask the Government for returns relative to the amount of interest payable on the public debt of the colony. A number of other notices of motion were given. . QUESTIONS. In reply to a question put by Mr. BURNS, as to when the return he had asked for, relative to rolling stock, would be forthcoming, the Hon. Mr. Ormond said it would occupy the staff, fully, twelve months, and then it would cost something like £2OO. Mr. THAYERS asked the Government,— Whether they propose to alter the representation'during the present session, more especially with a view to ascertain whether they would concur in increasing the number of members for the city of Wellington to three ? In putting the question he referred to the large increase in the population of Wellington —The. Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said it was not | the intention of the Government to act in the direction indicated this session. The Govern-, iment would -give its consideration to the question next year, as a census of the colony would be taken in the interim, The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE asked the: Minister for Justice,—Whether the Government will introduce during this session a Bill, as requested by the Senate of the University, of New Zealand in March, 1876, for the purpose of westing in be agreed upon : by the Government and the Senate —the lands reserved for promoting higher education in' -certain provinces, and pi enabling the same.to bo administered for the purposes for which they were reserved ? ' . The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said the matter had been under consideration; but it was a question how the trustees should be appointed to secure the object desired. The Geyernmentdid not propose to introduce a Bill this session.- : The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE asked the, (Minister for Justice,—Whether the Govern-: .ment have defined, as required by law, the University ; endowment reserves in the pro-; vinces ..of; Taranaki and Wellington, referred to respectively in the University Act, 1874, rieotiori 30, and the University Reserves Act, 1875, Schedule B; and, if not, when they will: do so? , ..,1 The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said a Bill bad been prepared, and would be introduced, to effect tbe object desired. : The Hon. Mr. GISBORNE asked the Minister for Justice, —Whether the Government recognise the claim submitted to them by the Senate of the University of New Zea-' land for an equivalent educational endowment in place of the reserve of 20,000 acres in the parish of Tahawaijin the districtof Tauranga, set apart by the Resident Minister at Auckland, in or about June, 1869, as a University endowment, and . afterwards appropriated by. the Government for another purpose ; and, if, the Government recognise that _ claim, how; they propose that it should be satisfied ? : The' Hon. Mr. BOWEN said no reserve was actually made for this particular purpose. The land had merely been withdrawn from, sale ; but if it should be deemed desirable an addi- • tional*endowment would be made. ' In reply to the Hon. Mr. Reynolds, the ■ Horn Major -Atkinson said be would lay before tbe House a return showing tbe names of all provincial officers whose services have been: dispensed with under tbe Abolition of Pro-. - vinces Act, their duties and salaries; also, a return showing the names of all new officers, not being provincial officers, appointed during the recess, their duties and salaries. In reply to Mr. Reynolds, as to whether the Government intended taking any steps with a view of establishing another training school, similar to the one "existing at Kohim'arama, the Hon. George McLean said the encourage- 1 ment received up to, the present had not been sufficient to induce them to establish another school. He expressed a hope that .the New Zealand Shipping Company would take over some of the boys at present in the.training school. , In.reply to Mr. Bastings, the Hon. Mr. Bowen said the Government were considering the advisability of establishing a reformatory for the colony, and as soon as they ascertained in what part of the country the demand for such an institution was greatest, they would take steps to establish one at once. At present the industrial schools were in some measure taking the place of reformatories. bills introduced. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time :—The Christchurch City Be-: serves Bill; a Bill to provide for a Site of Land for the use of the Tapanui Pastoral and Agricultural Association ; the Oamaru Athemeum and Mechanics Institute Reserves Bill ; a Bill to alter the Name of the Town of Havelock, in Provincial District of Otago, to Waitahuna. adjourned debate on the native lands COURT BILL. , . The House then proceeded to the next business on the Order Paper, namely, adjourned debate on the question,:—That the Bill be now read a second time, and the following amendment proposed to that question:—That the Native Lands Court Bill now before the House is unsatisfactory, and should be withdrawn, with a view so to alter its provisions as to make it more in conformity with the expressed wishes and real interests of the people of both races, and to ensure (should the Government abandon the p olicy of acquiring native land as a public estate), that any measure under which purchases by private persons may be permitted, should be of such a character as to encourage the acquisition and settlement of native lands, in limited areas, by small settlers.. When the order was called on in the ordinary way, The Hon. Major ATKINSON rose and -said i On Friday last the House kindly consented to the proposal for the postponement of this order of the day until this afternoon, so that the Government might consider how they should deal with the amendment proposed by ■ my hon. friend the member for Rangitikei. X : rise now, sir, to submit for the consideration ' of the House the manner in which they propose to deal with the question. (Hear, hear.) But before doing so I desire to recall to the .' minds of hon. gentlemen the ■ circumstances : which have led to the present position. My hon. colleague the Attorney-General, in moving the second reading of this Bill, showed " indisputably that the three leading character- ■ isticH of bur legislation on this subject were.the abandonment by tbe Crown of the right of pre-emption, tbe admission of the native title without especially entitling the Maori to the ■ fee simple of the laud, and third that the natives could, by abandoning the native title, deal either by sale, leasing, or retaining it, as could 1 the Europeans. It is true, sir, that the first of those principles was limited to some -extent by a clause in the Immigration: and Public .Works Act which gave the Government certain rights to debar the sale of parti-

cular blocks of land for a period of three yearn, when the right of the .natives became absolute. It-is-very-true that the second characteristic or principle running l through our legislation was limited to this extent, that wo always claimed a certain percentage to be paid by the natives upon! the conversion of Maori title into a Grown grant;' and that, the third right we have given them, of dealing freely with their lands, was' limited to some extent by the very complicated Acts which Ave have provided to give them their title. " But,'sir, these three principles had been accepted by the country, had been repeatedly laid down by this House, and had been undoubtedly received by the whole- of: the native ■ population with great satisfaction. ' That, then, was" the state of matters "relative ,to the native larttls when the Government last session undertook to submit a Bill to simplify, as I understood at the time, and clevelope the principles laid down and accepted. A Bill was very- carefully prepared .with the . qbjecit of ; carrying out the_ principles ’to'which I have just referred ; it was translated into Maori, and largely circulated among both tbe Europeans and natives. ’ Among the European population it met with very considerable resistance for various reasons.- Chiefly,.lt .became evident that a party had, grown up who. thought that in any fresh legislation on this ..subject.it was our duty to reconsider the principles upon which we had been legislating for the last fifteen yeas. The natives accepted the principle of the Bill, bnt objected to the limitations and the machinery. They said, for instance, that if. we had admitted the absolute ownership of the land, it was uhreasonable in us to demand any percentage for converting their title from Maori into English. They also objected to the Bill on the ground that the constitution of the Court was unsatisfactory. But the principle of the Bill they bad accepted, and always adhered to, and this is a very important consideration to ha borne inmind by hon. members when they come to consider, the course proposed by the Government. It is necessary to ’consider that there are two conflicting interests in this matter, and that this House and the European population have admitted certain rights; and before we attempt to take those rights away again or limit them further, it is necessary that the natives should be consulted upon the subject. When the Bill, then, came on for consideration by theV House, it became evident'to a large section of hon. gentlemen who were supporters of the Government that the time had. arrived when it was our duty to reconsider the provisions upon which w had been ’ legislating, And that opinion was given .expression to, by,'my hon. friend the member for* Rangitikei in the amendment he. submitted on the motion for the second reading of the Native Lands Court Bill. This having become evident, as I say, certain hon.' gentlemen who are opposed to the; Government seized upon the fact, and determined to make it a party question. 1 Fortu-i nately for the country, however, the,Govern--ment were strong enough to resist this. (Laughter from Opposition members.) Well, I am quite willing that the hon. gentlemen! should laugh ; but l am stating facts which they know as well as I, do.. I say fortunately i for the country we are in a position to resist, 1 this attempt to make the’ Native' Lands Bill j a party question—an attempt which has never! before been made in this House. And, sir, not; only are we in a position to successfully resist that attempt, but we are in a position to; consider calmly and dispassionately the amendment of my hon. friend the member for; Rangitikei. Therefore, sir, I repeat that it was a fortunate thing for the country that; the Government occupied a position of strength on that occasion. (Mr. Rees in spasms of laughter.) Ido noUexpect to carry the hon. gentleman with me. I merely state that for the information of the House, and not for the gratification of the hon. gentleman opposite. The position of affairs being as I have stated, ■ the Government carefully considered what; course it would-be best to pursue—whether it; would he advisable to accept the amendment of Mr. Ballanoe, and produce a Bill giving effect to it, or whether they should take some other course. Isay the Government very carefully considered the matter, and while they were very anxious to give effect to the principle which I understand Mr. Ballanoe asserts in his amendment, they came to the conclusion that, looking at the manner in which _we have legislated on this question before, looking, too,' at° the great interests involved and the large; changes it was proposed to make —they earned to the conclusion, I say, that it would be iu-j advisable to attempt the consideration of so important a measure during the present session. (Hear, hear, and derisive laughter.) Sir,! hon. gentlemen , laugh, but to my mind the subject of altering our,, relations with the; native people is not one that serious men would laugh at. The question involves interests too lar-e and important to be treated lightly. (Hear, hear.) We came to the conclusion, then, sir, that it would neither be right nor politic with the interests that we had at 1 heart, viz., the settlement’of the country, to attempt legislation in the direction which my : hon. friend Mr. Ballanoe has proposed during: the present session. It would probably be resisted by the natives, and even if we sue-: ceeded in passing such a measure, it would be, purely inoperative 'for that very reason.’ Therefore, sir, believing in the principles of the amendment proposed, we bad to consider bow we. could best give effect to it, and the; conclusion we came to was that we would ask the House to discharge the present Bill, and: to-morrow I shall ask permission of the House! to bring in a Bill to prohibit all private deal-; in" with native lands until the end of next; session of ’Parliament. (Hear, hear) In the meantime, sir, I shall put myself in communi-! cation with the natives, and during the recess we shall endeavor to frame a Bill which X trust will provide for the free dealing with native lands in such a manner as will prevent the land falling into the hands of speculators ; —(hear, hear)—and offer advantages to bona fide settlers with limited means. As have said, the Government have all along absolutely declined to make this a party question, and I am not going to be moved by the jeers of the hon. gentlemen on the Opposition benches from steady adherence to the course which the Government have decided

upon. I now move, sir, that order of the day No. 1 be discharged. Mr. STOUT aose to, a point of order. He submitted that the motion could not be put, as the question before the House was the amendment of Mr. Eallance. The order of the House had been complied with, and the question before tbe House was the amendment; and as the Premier’s motion was really in th« nature of another amendment it could not be accepted. Mr. Hon. Mr. GISBORNE supported this view of the case, and contended that the motion could not he put consistently with the standing orders. The SPEAKER, said it was very clearly laid down in the standing orders, rule Noi 103, which provided that an order of the day might be read and discharged. The order was not withdrawn. from the consideration of the House, and therefore the objection to the withdrawal of a measure trammelled with an amendment could not be taken. The observations of the hon. gentleman who had spoken to the point of order had not impressed his mind witha senseof the validity of theobjection. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS thought it would be extremely inconvenient if the Speaker’s ruling were not accepted, as the business would be materially delayed. Sir GEORGE GREY submitted that the rule which the Speaker relied upon had relation to an order of the House, and not art order of the day. Referring to the remarks of the last speaker, he contended that the, mouths of members should not be shut up on a motion of this kind. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD pointed out that there Wis nothing in the motion of the Premier to prevent the House discussing the question .for three weeks, and criticising the whole policy of the Government in reference to the subject of this Bill, if they felfso disposed. ' , Mr. REES objected to the motion, on the ground that it was contrary to the principle of “ May’s Parliamentary Practice.” Mr. MAC ANDREW suggested that Mr. Ballance’s amendment should be put, and then the Government could bring on their motion afterwards. The time of the House was being wasted.

' The lion. Mr. FOX contended that the i. motion was a perfectly'legitimate one, and 3 quite in accordance with the "rales by which i the’House was supposed to be guided. ;, :> b Mr. TJtAYEKS said , this question of 3 order ' was one 1 of ' very great importance > to the House, inasmuch as there was a s possibility of a" very dangeroiri s prededent c being established, the motion of. the Hon. r Major Atkinson being clearly inconsistent I with the standing orders; and he should there- ; fore have, to vote against the. motion bn that ; principle. ’He quoted from the records of the , House of Commons in support of his conten- ! t’jori.'■ But fori this objection he should he (}is- ; posed to favor the motion for the discharge of : the order; as proposed by the Premier, s 1 The Hon! Major ATKINSON submitted that ; hon; members entirely mistook the question. The order of the day,;was made a compound question by reason of'.the' amendment attached to it, and. there was” nothing contrary to estai Wished precedent in a motion for the discharge of. the order. , , \ 1 Mr. STOUT’raised another point—as to whether it was, competent for the Premier to move such :t resolution, he having .already spoken to 1 the,,amendment. ' 1 ' - Mr. PYKE said there seemed to he much ado about nothing in the proceedings of the House just .then, and . suggested that the question 'should be' put to ■ the vote: ’ He regarded the discussion as frivolous, and Hoped that the Legislature would bring itself to be actuated by something approaching at. least to common sense. ~ ,- - ' - The SPEAKER ruled against the objections, and said as to Mr. Stout’s last, he had no recollection of the Premier having spoken to the amendment. He also pointed out that should his decision be deemed to be erroneous it could be brought’ forward again and its merits discussed. Mr. STOUT asked that reference should be made to Hansard, in order to ascertain whether the Premier had spoken to the amendment. This request was complied with, and after the lapse of a few minutes, occupied in referring to the journals of the House, q'he SPEAKER said his impression was confirmed, the Premier having merely taken advantage of his privilege as Minister, in moving the adjournment, to state what the intentions of the Government were in reference to the Bill The question that order of the day No. 1 be discharged from the Order Paper was then placed before the House. , Mr. LUSK, in speaking to the question, said he desired, to make a few remarks as one of the members residing in that part of the colony which was most deeply interested. He then referred; to . the delicacy of the subject with which the Legislature had to deal as between the natives and Europeans. In : 1861 this question was not a social one, but a matter upon which Ministries went in and out ; and .now it was a .question of life and death to the people - of the North Island., The whole of their interests depended upon their relations with the natives ; and above all things it was necessary the natives should be treated with absolute justice; But it was not absolute justice to create machinery by means of which the native lands would be placed to a great extent at the mercy of speculators. This the Bill did. It was not free trade in land when it was' abs&lutely -necessary for ;a native, before he could sell his land, to mortgage, it to obtain 'the means to pay for survey fees. It was free trade when persons, even those of small capital, could purchase ; but this the Bill did not encourage ; on the contrary, itjforbad it. It was a capitalists Bill, and no worse principle than that which it contained could probably be introduced into any. Bill! The’proposal made by the Premier was on the face of it reasonable ; but when looked into it would be seen that his course was tortuous in the extreme. If it was well that the principle of the amendment of the hon. member for Rangitikei should be accepted, it was well that it should be given effect to at once, and not be put off for a year. It would seem that the Government wished to consult the officers in native districts. That was a good reason why; there should be no delay, for it had been the curse of the country that, too much deference had been paid to “native doctors”—men who from their position, and often their antecedents, were incapacitated from acting -fairly and - properly. No delay should be! granted, for So long as the House refused to deal with .this matter definitely the country would be liable to another native war. There-: fore he wished, to move an amendment to the hon. ’ member’s motion. The motion before; the House he understood to be—“ That the order of the day be discharged.” He wished to add to that the following—“ To enable the! Government to'give effect during the present: session to the amendment of the hon. member; for Rangitikei, now pending, as an amendment to the order for the second read-' ing.” : He did not wish, to see amend-, ments quietly burked, and he believed a great majority were with him.: (Opposition: cheers.) It was an easy. matter to deal’ with the question, and he hoped the Government would follow their better'instincts, and: not only sympathise with the amendment. of; the hon. member for Rangitikei, but endeavor: to give effect to it. Mr. SUTTON said the monopolist* had been: made a stalking-horse of ; and he looked upon the Bill as a great improvement upon the existing law in that respect, and referred to, instances on the East Coast, where largo tracts of land had lately passed into the hands; of monopolists under the Act of 1873. Many, of the petitions presented against the Bill were, really in favor of it ; but it was not until thej Opposition began to work the ropes that peti-i tions of a different character began to find, their way into the House. No doubt there were defects in the Bill—such, for instance, as ■ ; the enormous power given to the chief judge, the appointment of j udgea and assessors. The assessors he thought should be placed in a better, position, and should be endowed with 1 power analogous to that held by registrars of the Supreme Courts.' In further remarks, he said the natives suffered because of the iujudi-; cious advice given them, -and stated that the natives in Hawke’s Bay had had to , cry “Save me from my friends.” He could name

some gentlemen who had been . busy. (Mr.; Sheehan : Name.) No, ho should not give names, because he had to complain of the iron. l member for Rodney having used his name on the floor of the House at a time when he (Mr. Sutton) was not a member.of tile House. The Hon.' W. FOX said he had not' such qualifications to speak on 'the subject as were possessed by the hon. member who had last spoken, in that he had never bought an acre of native land, but he had had great responsibility resting upon him in connection with native affairs. In 1862 he had resisted to the last gasp the abandonment of. the Crown’s right of pre-emption, and he had felt ever since it was a wrong step, ; but it was-no use attempting to resuscitate the right. He reviewed what had been done last session in this matter, and said it seemed ,to him that the present Bill was drawn carefully to meet the wishes of gentlemen like Messrs., Rolleston, Sheehan, and Lusk, who last session pleaded hard for on? thing only—that there should be greater faciiityforthe individualisation of title to native land. That was what there seemed to be in the Bill. (lilr. Travers : No.) It seemed ah exceedingly well drawn Bill, and upon its face showed exactly what it meant; but, notwithstanding all that could be said in favor of it, he quite agreed with many of the objections made against it by hon. members, who had preceded him. The power in the hands of. the chief judge, for instance. Still’ the -chief judge was ' in 1 a' position which required a good deal of power. What made the large powers proposed to be given, that officer appear more indefensible was that the assessors were So much reduced in position’, importance, and power. The true policy, should bo to throw as much responsibility as possible on to the assessors—the natives ■ themselves. (Hear; hear.) He disapproved of the insecure tenure upon which the judges held their Office’, though he could not altogether agree with the remarks^ of Mr. Travers, who had’seemed: to wish that the judges should be placed above any control, forgettingthat the large majority of the European Judges—District Judges—-were under political control, seeing that, they might bo dismissed by the Governor on the advice of his Responsible Ministers. (Leaving this part of

'from acolouising point of: view,-he had no doubt it was a very-fine thing to draw-up but when the test came-for 'a man to sit’dbwn and prepare a Bill embodying the principles so easily laid down, it was a different matter. There the difficulty came in., It was easy to say the Government should take steps to secure the land and survey and break it up for cobuiratios.";' hut the natives would greatly'object to anything of the kind. He took the many i petitions against the Bill not to be Opposed to the; machinery of the Bill, but tolts. colonising provisions. ‘lt had seemed remarkable to him that while the native members had opposed the Bill’they, had never Raid a word in the way of suggesting, what course legislation should take. The fact Was the House had no knowledge, 'of fwhat; the’(natives wanted,‘.and they were no,(further forward , in. .the matter than they were .when a Native Land Bill was last year withdrawn--for want of information. He therefore,. ’considered they would be, doing a. very wrong thing to rushithrough : the(House the Bill or any other Bill which had not first received .the sympathy of the natives. It was a pity that something..could not be done too, for the'fact ,wa3 that . under the Act.of 1873 the lauds were .being ravished'from the people of New Zealand; in-proof of which he in : stanced recent purchases,■ of lands by .speculators,. Then whatmust bij done ? If; this Bill were not passed then.a short Act must be possed stopping the operation of the Act of 1873. He quite approved of the course the Government had taken, and he should support them. ' ' ■ ‘ . ’ Mr. GISBORNE twitted the Government on their change of front, and said .while, they professed the utmost valor they’ran away and refused: to come to a vote. As'to the alleged sympathy with the amendment of the hon. member for Rangitikei, of ‘what was it born but of the long list of votes,that the hon. member for Rangitikei would carryinto the lobby with him, and on Avhat did it exist but on the breath of a Government whip. (A laugh.) If their' professions of sympathy l were’ earnest, why did they want another yeas to consider whether they would give practical "effect to it? He should oppose the Bill, because he considered it would, if passed, endanger the peace of the country, and retard settlement and progress. He criticised some of the provisions of the. Bill (complaining first that. it had omitted some of the necessary restrictions contained in the Act of 1873), contending that those in reference to surveys, reserves' to natives, and other points were faulty. How- : ever, his great objection to the Bill was that , strife between the tworaoes would ensue, audho pointed out that the reports of Mr. Woou and Mr. Clarke seemed to show that the warlike feeling was still in the native mind. Both of ' these gentlemen were known to be trustworthy i men of high repute (indeed it had been ru- : mored that the Government had offered the latter the position ’ of Native Minister, and it would have been well had the offer been ac-

cepted), and such reports, shjuld make the House careful what it was about. It was on these . grounds that he opposed the Bill—he did not wish to'see New Zealand' divided among principalities and powers —he did not wish , to see her lands parcelled out by land speculators and monopolists—he wished to see her overspread by happy homes of industrious settlers—he wished to see her teeming with a population which should subdue her wastes and develop -her resources ;—but if this Bill become law, then farewell, a long farewell, to these things; He appealed to each Minister in succession to rise to a sense of his duty, and expressed- the opinion that Sir Donald McLean had he been alive Avould have cut off his right hand rather than have affixed his approval to such a measure. He hoped the House would reject the Bill. Mr. TRAVERS related a conversation which he had had with one of the greatest land speculatorsintheNorthlslandthatmorning. He had been told at ten o’clock that morning that the Government had decided to withdraw the Bill; that they intended to bring in another Bill to stop all speculatipns’for a year. He said he would be very glad, of, it,' because while others could not speculate it would enhance tenfold his property. That conversatio i had strengthened the opinion he held as to the necessity of definite legislation this session. Any delay would largely benefit'the capitalists, and would., greatly injure the natives. He said he had been in the confidence of Sir D. McLean, and he knew that that gentleman, having found out the, weak point in the Maori; character,—their want of, pre-, vision in dealing with their lands, —had deter-: mined to throw, the; restrictions of the law around all transactions between natives and; Europeans. It was’ a wise and necessary policy, and it was a policy which had been followed by the United States for two hundred years in respect to the Indians. If such restrictions were not put upon transactions the result would be that the whole of the North Island would fall into the hands of capitalists and speculators. He spoke at some length of the evils of the capitalists in New Zealand, alleging that 112 persons held about a tenth or twelfth of - tho whole lands of the colony, and went on to point out how easily this evil would be increased by the provisions of the Bill. He pictured the ! -efforts of the' landsharks to obtain - possession of the laud, and asked if the House would (countenance a Bill which would pauperise'the whole of the; natives, just as Tai7eha,*'the great-chief, had ’ been pauperised, and- plunge the colony into a war, in which the natives would fight for their existence., If the right of pre-emption could not be resuscitated, 1 let proper provision be! made to protect the natives.in their trausac- ■ tions, and let the Native Land Courts be placed , in a purer position. It! was boasted this was a ; Court into which the lawyers had not pene-; trated, but it was' a Court into which had riot i yet been let the light of public opinion, owing to the absence of the lawyers. It was riot a | Court similar in position to. the. Resident! Magistrate’s Courts’ arid District Courts.; These Courts were not subject to direct poli-! tioal influence like the Native Land Courts were l —and which influence, judging by events; he had witnessed, was, not an unused influence; —but if they were, there was a right of I appeal from their : decisions—(arid .there was 1 no such appeal from the Native Land Courts) —j to five Judges, who, thank God,.were above all such influences, and who were above all sus-! pi cion, .notwithstanding the miserable petition: which had found its way bn to the table of the House. The hon. gentleman continued at great length, instancing several nefarious trans-; actions in which natives had been, robbed of their land, and said he would never be a party; while bo was in that House to allow a free-and-: easy system of land alienation, but should contend for every protection for intellects that' were'not equal to those of the men who wished to rob them of their land, for a law l , thaij worild’throw’.upon the Native Land Court responsibility for the bona fidea of every transaction—responsible for a fair price being given; The district; of - Hawke’s dsay had been the arena of the most infamous transactions that had ever occurred in; the world, because Judges of the Native Land Court’ had neglected their duty, and had allowed a parcel of miserable savages to divest themselves of’their property for tbe, benefit of men of greater 1 intellect but less probity. He concluded with a strong appeal to the House to affirm the amendment. (Applause.) . : Captain MORRIS said this was the one Bill upon upon which he must have voted against the Government had they persisted in it, because his Maori constituents were so completely opposed to certain clauses in it. This was, of course, unless it could be'amended in committee. A few members had met in caucus, and had decided to attempt to get the Bill passed with certain amendments. Among those who had so agreed -were the hon. member for Auckland City East, Mr/Rees, and the hon. member for Franklin, Mr. Hamlin. , Mr. REES : I never made any such promise. - , : : , Captain MORRIS : The House must decide whom it will believe. Mr. REES : I never gave you or anyone else such a promise. , , ; Captain MORRIS : Very well,- I am not going to argue tho matter. The llouso will judge between us. ■ He then went on to remark on the effects .of the Bill, and said he should support tlie Government in the .course they were taking. Referring to some remarks of the speaker who had preceded him, he denied

there'was such a thing as a Maori pauper. He :: deprecated any hurry.' in' .legislation, because ; the' Maori ' would'"Hot abide, by such 'laws, i' Give a Maori time to express an opinion on a i i Bill, let his opinion bejespecjied, and he would . i abide J>y its provision'sbut he, would, regard ■with 4he greatest suspicion' anything which i was forced'upon him hurriedly.' Mr. Travers had been greatly “had,and if the East i Coast ‘ speculator happened to be present, he i would chuckle greatly. The best course which , could_be taken now' would be to leave the whole question over tilF next session, and let the. Maoris know,;what the principles of legislation would be ; and if the Government accepted. ’advice it would bring down a Bill giving every,,facility for dealing with the land and individualising title.' ; ' Mr. THOMSON,'in referring to the, speech qf Mr. Travers, said he had experienced, surprise that'the'hom Minister for'Public Works had hot : risen to speak & to.-the transactions alleged to have taken place'iri the provincial district, of Hawke’s Bay,, it being supposed that he was to a certain' ,extent mixed up, in those, .transactions., Speaking' to '.the, main question, he said it was very evident the present Ministry would riot remain’ long on those benches, therefore he would .not,- say much about the Native Lands Bill, as, he- believed the '.suqccssors of the (Jqvernineht would riot bring down such a measure, it being unworthy of any Ministry., He was not surprised that the Attorney-General had ,-prepared the Bill, inasmuch as it bore favorable comparison with other. Bills brought down by the Government, and it'was-not ia: matter of wonder, that it should have been the cause of dissension in the Cabinet. The Government, he continued to say,-should endeavor to educate the natives on this'question, which they displayed no desire'to, do ; but even this debate, he was glad to know, would dosoine good in that direction. ■ Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS rose with a view of endeavoring, to put the question in such a position that the business of the Government might be proceeded with. Some very excellent speeches had been made during the debase, and he. thought it would be a pity if the people of both races had . not an opportunity of studying, them. The speech of the hon. member for ■ Eangitikei especially should be .-carefully considered by the natives, among whom there were differences of opinion on the subject. Time should be allowed to consider the question, and he would therefore move as an amendment that the words “during the present session” he omitted, and the words added “to enable the Government to give effect to the amendment of the hon. member , for'Rangitikei.” . | Mr. REES, in speaking to the amendment, made special reference to the Hon. Mr. Ormond, and expressed surprise that that gentlemen had not then taken an opportunity of addressing the House in reference to native land transactions in Hawke’s Bay in which he was known to have largely participated. He (Mr. Rees) then followed in the wake of Mr.

Travers, by telling, of a case in Hawke’s Bay in which land was improperly dealt with, and a part of the block of land so obtained from a Maori named Kawatin had passed into the hands of the Hon. the Minister of Public Works. He ridiculed the idea that natives who endeavored to get back their land should be called “ repudiationists.” The natives had been plundered right and left, under the eyes and sometimes with the connivance of those who should have been their protectors. In the course of a lengthened speech Mr. Bees incidentally mentioned the New Zealand Times as “that blot upon colonial journalism.” Captain Edssell having addressed the House, : Mr. Eabaitiana moved the adjournment of the debate until Friday, subequently, however, naming Thursday.—The Hon Major Atkinson- moved that half-past 7 o’clock should be named as the hour.—Mr. Stout moved an amendment that no hour should be named. On a division, the Premier’s motion was carried by 37 to 26. The House adjourned at 12.49 a.m.