PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5112, 11 August 1877, Page 1 (Supplement)

PARLIAMENT.

' LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 9. The Hon. the Speakek took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PAPERS AND RETORTS. Certain papers were laid on the table by the Hon. Dr. Pollen, and the hon. Captain Baillie brought up an interim report of the Select Committee on Public Petitions. DESTITUTE PERSONS BILL. This Bill had not been distributed, and required various alterations ; the Hon. Dr. Pollen therefore moved that its second reading be discharged from the Order Paper, and made an order of the day for Tuesday next.— Carried. OTHER BILLS. The Misdemeanants and other Offenders Arre3t Bill passed through committee, was reported with amendments to the Council, and its third reading made an order of the day for next sitting day. The Forest Trees Plautiug Encouragement Bill passed through committee with the exception of the Bth clause, which was postponed for further consideration till Tuesday next. The Auckland Highway Districts "Validation Bill passed through committee. It was reported to the Council with amendments, and its third reading made an order of the day for next sitting day. The Crossed Cheques Bill was further considered in committee, but the Council shortly after (at 5 p.m.) adjourned, the further discussion of this Bill beinj> fixed for next sitting day. Friday, August 10. The Hon. the Speakek took the chair at 2.30 p.m. • PAPERS. Certain papers were laid on the table.by the Hon. Dr. Pollen. NOTICE OP MOTION. The Hon. Mr. PHARAZYN gave notice of his intention to move, on the re-committal of the Forests Bill on Tuesday next, that all clauses after clause 2 be struck out. QUESTIONS. The Hon. Mr. MILLEK, by leave of the Council, asked the Hon. Dr. Pollen, without notice, whether, the Manawatu not having arrived in harbor, the Government could not send Bome other steamer in her stead to the scene of the wreck of the Queen Bee at once ? The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that he did not know of the Government having taken any steps to send another steamer, but that the Council must not conclude that the Government had not taken any further steps in the matter simply because he did not know of their having done so. The Hon. Dr. MENZIES asked,—Whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in, during the present session, a Bill to amend the Counties Act, 1876 ; and, if such is the intention, whether it will inform the Council in what way it proposes to amend the Act ? The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that he could, give no information on the subject at present, but that as soon as possible he would privately give the Hon. Dr. Menzies any information in his power. The Hon. Mr. "Whitaker had charged himself with the amended Bill, and the county councils of the colony had been invited to express their opinions on the working of the Act, and, to make suggestions as to any alterations they might wish. ORDERS OF THE DAY. The Misdemeanants and Other Offenders Arrest Bill and the Auckland Highway Districts "Validation Bill went through their third readings (having been certified to by the Chairman of Committees), and were passed. CROSSED CHEQUES BILL. On the discussion of this Bill in committee being resumed, the Hon. Mr. Buckley asked for and obtained leave to withdraw the clause which he had asked permission to insert, and which ran as follows :—After the first day of December, 1877, it shall not be lawful for any person to give a crossed cheque under ten pounds to any person in payment, of wages or small contracts. Any person bo giving a crossed cheque, shall, on conviction thereof, for every such offence forfeit and pay a penalty of five pounds, to be recovered on summary conviction before one or more justices of the peace.—The Hons. Col. Brett, Sir F. D. Bell, Mr. Robinson, Captain Fraser, Mr. Hart, and Dr. Pollen having spoken, the Bill was repoited to the Council without amendment, and, having gone through its third reading, wns passed. The Council then (at 3 p.m.) adjourned till the usual hour on Tuesday next.

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. [Friday, August 10. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. PETITIONS AND NOTICES. A number of petitions were presented and notices of motion given. A notice of motion by Mr. Curtis, on behalf of Mr. Gisborne, -was as to whether the Government purposed devoting certain lands to the purposes of higher education under the educational system of the colony. THE QUEEN BEE PASSENGERS. Mr. REES asked, without notice,—Whether the Government had requested the man-of-war in harbor to go in search of the missing boats belonging to the wrecked vessel Queen Bee? The Hon. G. McLEAN said if the vessel had not already gone she was going imme- j diately. QUESTIONS. In reply to Mr. Montgomery, the Hon. Major Atkinson said he would as soon as possible lay before the House the account promised in the Financial Statement, showing particulars of the expenditure on account of provincial liabilities charged on loan of 1876. ' j A number of questions affecting local matters in provincial districts throughout the colony were put and duly answered. BILLS INTRODUCED. j The following Bills were introduced and read a first time:—A Bill to amend the Law with reference to Bankers' Books Evidence; a Bill to amend the Conveyancing Ordinance Amendment Bill; the Dunedin Wharves and Quays Reserves Bill; a Bill to extend and alter the provisions of the Crown Redres3 Act, 1871. The House then proceeded to the orders of the day. NATIVE LAND COURT BILL. Adjourned debate on the question,—That the Bill be read a second time, and the following amendment proposed to that question:— '■ That the Native Land Court Bill now before the House is unsatisfactory, and should be withdrawn, with a view to so alter its provisions as to make it more in conformity with the expressed wishes and real interests of the people of both races, and to ensure (should the Government abandon the policy of acquiring native land as a public estate) that any measure under which purchases by private persons may be permitted, should be of such a character as to encourage the acquisition and settlement of native lands, in limited areas, by small settlers. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday next, in order that the Government might consider the amendment of the hon. member for WanMr' STOUT: Does the Government intend to accept the amendment? Because, I under-; stood that the Government were adverse to the The Hon. Major ATKINSON said he desired that the House should now agree to a postponement of the question, and on Tuesdays next ho would bo able to tell hon. gentlemen exactly what the Government proposed to do. Mr. SHEEHAN submitted that the Government should be in a position to tell the House- now what their intentions were on the subject. This Bill had been before the country for the last three months ; had been alluded to in the Governor's opening Bpoech, and on coming on for discussion" before the House the debate upon it was adjourned. During the interim, there had been ample timo for the consideration of-the subject, including the amendment -of Mr. Ballance, and .he (Mr. Sheehan) was certainly of opinion that that the Government should have come down to them on the present occasion with some determination as to the .course they intended to pursue. .. ... "

Mr. REES spoke in the same strain, contending that the Government should acquaint the House with the course which they intended to pursue on the question under discussion. Mr. J. E. BROWN considered the request of the Government perfectly An amendment adverse to the Bill they had introduced had been moved, and under - these circumstances he considered it only fair that they should be allowed time duly to consider what course they should adopt in reference to so important a question. The Hon. Mr. FOX quite agreed with the member for Ashley. The subject under consideration was one of very great importance, and one which should command the attention of every member of the House. He supported the adjournment. The motion for the adjournment of: the debate was then put and carried, and immediately afterwards there were cries of "Adjourn." - Mr. BBOWN moved the adjournment of the House.

The Hon. Major ATKINSON said that members appeared to misapprehend the position altogether. It had been distinctly stated that this was a social Bill, and not of a party character. Certain hon. gentlemen had thought proper to look upon it as a party movement ; but he must distinctly state that the Government declined to. look upon this question in that light. With regard to the necessity for an adjournmsnt, if hon. gentlemen opposite were averse to the postponement of the question, the Government would be perfectly willing to face them and debate the matter. Mr. STOUT remarked that the position which the Premier had now taken up was entirely different to that .which he had assumed a few moments ago, when the Hon. Major Atkinson stated that the Government required time to reconsider their position. ['* No" from the Government benches.] Well, if that were not the case, what did they require time for, having introduced a Bill as to the provisions of which they were entirely ignorant ? The fact of the matter wa< that the Government had been placed in a difficulty by the amendment af Mr. Gisborne. The House was told, however, that this. was not a political question, but was of a social character pure and simple ; they were told that the Government would not look upon it as a question in which a want of confidence could be involved. Under these circumstances he could see no reason why the debate should not proceed. Unless the Government required time to consider, their position, he could see no reason for adjournment. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said the amendment of the hon. member for Rangatikei involved a very important matter, and the Government were desirous of giving it their earnest consideration. If hon. gentlemen would only consider the difficulties met with by the Government in getting through the mass of business they had to transact, and the small anlount of time they had at their disposal,, they would understand that therequest made for the postponement of this particular question was in no way unreasonable. The Government were asking nothing unusual whatever; they simply said that, an amendment had been proposed, with which the Government had a good deal of sympathy—(laughter from the Opposition benches) —and they required two er three days to consider, it, the more so as it involved a complete change in the system which had been hitherto adopted. s Mr. REES spoke at some length in reference to the position which" the Ministry had taken up, remarking that they appeared to be in a very undecided state, he having heard outside that the Government had endeavored ' to get Mr. Ballance to withdraw his amendment. One of the members of, the Government laughed, but nevertheless there was .ground for the statement.

The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said he had heard jiothirig of any such action. Mr. REES denied that he had made any special reference to the Hon. the AttorneyGenefal. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER understood that the member for City East had alluded to him, because he looked at him while in the act of making that observation respecting the Government.

Mr. REES would set the mind of the last speaker at rest—he had not referred to him, but to the Hon. Mr. Bowen, the Minister for Justice. As a matter of fact the Attor-ney-General was rather winking than smiling at the time, and seemed to bear a lachrymose air. Setting all that apart, however, he challenged the Ministry to deny that they had endeavored to persuade the hon. member to withdraw his amendment. If the amendment to the Native Land Court Bill were carried (it mattered not by whom it was proposed) the Government were bound to go out of office. • '

The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS hoped the time of the House would not be wasted. There was not anything at all unusual in what the Government asked for, because they had not had sufficient time to consider what they should do'in regard to the amendment. They were simply asking for a privilege enjoyed by hon. members of the House when they introduced Bills there, and he could' see nothing to reflect upon the Government in their having requested an hon. member to withdraw his motion in regard to a, Bill introduced by them, in order to meet his views and theirs also. Mr. READER WOOD said it was the general impression of the House that the Government required time to consider the amendment, but at the same time they opposed the motion for the adjournment of the House. It was understood by a number of hon. gentlemen —whether "rightly or wrongly—that the Government party had collapsed, that their supporters had left them "altogether. They, now desired to gain a further delay in reference to the Native Lands Court Bill, and wanted to introduce the question of education; but if they wished for the confidence of the House they should settle one: thing at a time. Mr. BUTTON would make a few observations on the question before the House, and remarked that the adjournment asked for was a matter of convenience; as members were not in a fit frame of mind to discuss the Education Bill, and he would be happy to support it therefore. He could not shut his eyes to this fact, that although the members of the Opposition sought' to have an adjournment on the ground that they required more time.to conj. eider the Education.Bill, yet what they really wanted to'do was to coerce the Government into taking up a position which they very properly declined to take. Those members, in fact, wanted the Government to regard this question of the Land Bill and the amendment proposed upon it as a question upon which their position as a Ministry depended. : The Government had declined to take up this position, and it would be open to the- House to accept that determination or not. He should oppose the adjournment, because ho did not approve of the motives which had called forth the motion, namely, the desire to force the Government into an unfair position. Mr. GISBORNE thought they should proceed with the business of the House. The Government, as they understood from the Hon.; the Premier, wished for time to consider their position; but had not, it appeared, considered it necessary to consider their position until an: amendment to this Bill had been proposed. While however he was surprised at the action which the Government had taken up, he quite agreed that this was not a. political question upon which the House could adjourn, and he should therefore give his vote against the ad-: journment of the House. . • Mr. THOMSON said the first order of th : day was the Native Lands Court Bill, and no doubt up till one o'clock the Government had intended to go on with it; but suddenly, finding .the feeling strongly against, them on the Bill, they desired to go on to the next order of the day. He was glad to find they did sympathise with the amendment, because the Bill, if carried, would be a great evil for the country. . The Hon. W. FOX remarked that if their constituents could just look in upon them all then, they would be much inclined to knock hon. members heads together, just as was done with naughty boys at school. It was literally playing with the business of the country to go on squabbling on such a point, and he trusted that the good sense of the House would prevail,' and that tho vote would at once be taken.

Mr. SWANSON said it was very well for the hon. member to talk that way, but what would their constituents say to the Government ? ' .

Mr. MONTGOMERY said that he i and other members had come to the House that afternoon expecting a long debate on a very important question, the Education Bill ; but from what had occurred immediately before the House met, and during the course of the afternoon, many members found themselves in too excited a condition to discuss properly a matter which so deeply affected the interests of the colony, and for these reasons he should support the adjournment of the House. Mr. MAC ANDREW quite agreed with what had fallen from the last speaker. There wasnonecesaityjustthen to consider the position of the Government with reference to the. Native Lands Bill. The course they , had taken was a reasonable one, and there was an end of it. But it was quite impossible to; discuss the Education Bill, or any other important measure.

• Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS expressed himself as quite incapable of comprehending the position into which the Opposition were endeavoring to force the House. They were seeking, it seemed to him, to take advantage of an amendment proposed by one who had no sympathy with them, and he (Sir Robert) wished to know what would be the outcome of the matter if the amendment were carried. A great many would be quite willing to, follow, the hon. member for Rangitikei if the sole consequence were the rejection of the Bill. Butit was quite .a different matter if a cori-" current result was the installation of the Opposition in power. The Hon. Mr. BOWEN, after some few preliminary remarks, in which he said the hon. member for Totara '(Mr. Gisborne) had. put the matter very fairly indeed, and he was surprised that any discussion had followed it, proceeded. There had been a great deal of talk about letting the natives know all about this Bill before itjwas passed; and as the Government had recognised that the Bill was pne which the natives had aright to discuss among themselves, they had adopted the unusual course of printing it two months before the session and distributing it throughout the native districts of the colony. It was now supposed that the Government were to decide in an instant, without any reference to the natives at all, whether they should retain the Bill or not. He could scarcely understand the position the Opposition took up. It was a Bill which must be considered not only: by those inside the House, but by many persons who were not inside the House, but yet were' deeply interested in it. As to the motion for the adjournment, he quite agreed with what the hon. member for Hokitika had said, and the question was, why should they not go on with the business of the. country. One hon. gentleman had said the Government supporters had dissolved away into nothing. Vevy well, let the House go to a division and see. He believed it would be found that the Government supporters were as numerous as ever, and as desirous as ever of getting on with the work. That being so, it was the absolute duty of the Government to go on. It had been Baid the House was too much excited to discuss the education measure. For one, he should.be sorry to see them discuss education that afternoon ; but there were a great many other subjects on the Order Paper which they might discuss. He hoped the adjournment would not be agreed to. Sir GEORGE GREY said he remembered that in his young days theatre managers when they got into trouble with an audience generally adopted the device of. putting forward an old lady to sing. The Government adopted that plan this afternoon, and though the last speaker, who was the old woman of the Government, had attempted to sing very sweetly, the effort had not been successful. However, there were very grave questions before the House, and the Government was in a very remarkable position. The supporters of the Government themselves were absolutely moving amendments which in effect declared want of confidence in the Government, and it was not to be wondered at that members on the Opposition side should lend their assistance to a fair consideration of matters which they themselves had brought forward, time after time, and endeavored to get a fair consideration for, but unsuccessfully. But what he wanted to point out was this : that the. Opposition having grauted the time asked by the Government to consider their position in reference to the Native Lands Bill, it was only fair that the Opposition should be granted time to see what course they intended to pursue. He did not think the hon. member for Totara had considered the whole circumstances of the case; if he had, he would have remembered that there was not only one motion affecting the position of the Government before the House, but three. For instance, there was a motion on the paper, pnt there by another of the usual supporters of the Government, attacking their financial position—the question of taxation. That was a matter which the Government ought to have insisted upon being debated straight out; and if it had been, he ventured to say that 1 some facts would have teen brought out showing the dreadful position of the colony at the present time'. The Treasurer had not told them in his Financial Statement all the facts concerning the: position of the colony. He had not told : the country that he had been obliged to raise money at six per cent, interest, and he had not told them that within eighteen months it wpuldbeabsolutely necessary to raise five millions of money for the purpose of paying outstanding debts and administering public works. Neither the colony nor the colony's creditors knew that, but they ought to know it. Then this question of the incidence of taxation ought to be settled at once. The Government talked much of subsidies; but if they would alter the incidence of taxation, they might in one week relieve the working classes of taxation to the extent of £375,000 per annum, or,in other wordsigrant; to every family from the North Cape to Stewart's Island a subsidy of £5. It was most iniquitous ■ that hundreds of thousands of pounds should be spent upon public works, to make the rich' richer and the poor poorer. Let those who had benefited by the-public works bear: the cost of them. But that question had been postponed, as had also the debate on the Wate Maori. He asked the House to give the Op-, position fair play, and allow them (the Oppo-j sition) an opportunity of consulting among' themselves, and determining-the course of; policy they Bhould pursue. Mr. MURRAY, as a compromise, moved i that the House should adjourn - until halfpast 7. • : The Hon.'Mr. STAFFORD disputed that; it lay in the power of the Opposition to consult' and determine .what was a vote of want of con-: fidence. That was entirely the, province, of i the Government. As long as the Govern-1 rhent led the Houso they were responsible for the conduct of it, although it was quite tru6 that occasionally the House might get into such a position that it would be a wise and judicious proceeding on the part of the Government to postpone any business until hon. members got a little more cool. Itwas most absurd, however, for the Opposition to ask for time to consider what they should do. The Government alone had a right to determino what was and what was not a vote of want of confidence. And the position of the Opposition was even more absurd when it was remembered that as yet there had been no test of feeling whatever on this Bill. Even if the Bill were rejected that did not necessarily impose on the Government the necessity; of resigning. He r ■' mentioned the .case of an'English Government which had been told to take the whole of its financial proposals back, 'and yet did not reßign ; in fact, they had remained in office three consecutive sessions afterwards. He did not intend to say that he would remain in office after suoh an occurrence ; but still it proved the constitutional rule that a Ministry alone had the power of interpreting votes of ' the, House. With the Opposition, however, rested the course of moving a direct vote of want of confidence. After some few further remarks, in which he expressed the opinion that the Government should have had the taxation motion disposed of before proceeding further, he said it was well for the Government to consider the temper of,the House in a case like this. However small a minority might be, he had soon last session that it could reader itself

very obstructive, and it might be a question for the Government to consider whether it would not be better to grant an adjournment on the ground of expediency, and he counselled them to accede to the request for an adjournment. The Hon. DONALD REID said of course the Government received with very great deference all that came from the hon. member for Tiinaru,; but in this case that hon. gentleman scarcely recognised the position of affairs. The Opposition had attempted to force the Government into a false position, and the effect of acceding to the adjournment would be that a cry! would raised that the Government had not sufficient strength to lead the House. As to the Government having , placed the financial debate so low on the Order Paper, it had been done to accommodate the Opposition, who expressed inability to .discuss finaace until the Public Works Statement had been brought down. Mr. Rees' motion, too, would have been-proceeded with,- but the leader of the Opposition could net be brought to discuss it. The Government were scarcely to blame in these matters therefore ; and their only reason for wishing to proceed with the business was that there were a number of members ready, to go on with the work,. and that constant ad-, journments on every conceivable subject was frittering away the time, so that, as on previous occasions, all the business would be postponed till the end of the session, and then.rushed through. The hon;' member for the Thames had stated that "the Financial Statement did not faithfully show the condition of > the country. A vague charge ; but the hon. gentleman was always vague. Why had he not come down, with definite charges, and proved his statements by figuresthat might be. quoted and- relied upon. That would be a much' better course than making vague statements 'so damaging to. the country, but which from the positionof the gentleman who made them ■ received a" certain amount of credence outside the colony. .- Mr..REES said, if. the hon. member forthe Thames had made vague statements, he would be particular, and he would show the House that eighteen months £5,000,000 of money would be required to repay borrowed money; and to provide for public works. One million had been borrowed from the banks, which had to be paid in December, January, and February; there were £823,000 worth of Treasury bills, of which £400,000 has to be paid in November, and the balance within eighteen months, not a word about which had been said by the Treasurer. There were £525,000 worth of guaranteed debentures, and over £2,000,000- would be required for public works. For some of the money borrowed they had to pay 6 per cent. If these figures had been included in the Financial Statement it would have shown a deficit of £IIO,OOO, instead of these false or misleading balances that the Treasurer brought out. . > The. Hon. Major ATKINSON said he felt a considerable amount of pity for the'hon gentleman who had just sat down. Before he occupied tlie position of a man who'prophesied some [years ago—manyhon. members would remember the wonderful book—that there was a coming crisis. The crisis had been coming for along! time; but it was not here yet, and seemed to be a, long way off:; so that the hon. gentleman was rather disappointed. His book had proved . a failure,. because first the hon. gentleman knew nothing jof book-keeping, and nothing, of statute-law. For the same reasons he had fallen into grievous error on this occasion,- and'there was this curious fact, that while he complained the Financial Statement did not disclose the information he had alluded to, he himself had got that information from the statement, so; that his-charge absolutely fell to the ground". The Treasurer then proceeded to explain that there were three accounts—the Public Works account, the Land Fund account, and the Consolidated Revenue account—each of which had to be kept separate, a fact which the hon. "member had quite ignored. As to the allegation that 6 per cent.: was being paid as' interest, that was true to a certain extent. A sum appropriated by special Act, for the Tiinaru Harbor Board, had been raised at 6 per cent, owing mainly to the fact that there .had been an error in the Act; but the money was by an arrange-. ment placed at interest in such a manner that there was a positive gain on the transaction. A small sum had been raised.by the Government at 6 per cent for a special purpose,' but, it was to. prevent the necessity for selling the bills outright, which was not considered necessary in view of the proposals of the Government. He regretted he had been compelled to make long explanations for the benefit of the hon. member (Mr. Rees) when he came to the Treasury bench; but it was, an absolute necessity for the information of the House, who might otherwise be misled. The Financial Statement was perfectly clear to those who wished to understand it. , "

'. Mr.' De Lautouk followed ; and Mr. Sheehan was speaking; when the House adjourned for refreshment, and Mr. Murray's amendment fell to the ground,',..'' ', When the House resumed at half-past seven o'clock, Mr. Sheehan taunted the Government with a desire to retain their seats under any circumstances, profiting neither by experience ior advice. The Government had for several sessions past been a sickly Government, and had to call in the advice of Mr. Stafford to, put them on their legs again ; but in this last instance they had rejected that gentleman's advice. Despite the fact that the Hon. Donald Reid liad deserted the Opposition and joined the Ministry, rely, should that Ministry go down, that the Opposition would not desert him as an old friend. Mr. Sheehan: concluded, however, by announcing that the Opposition would no longer urge the adjournment. . PUBLIC WORKS STATEMENT. The Hon. Mr. ORMOND then delivered the Public Works Statement, which will be found in another column. l On !the adjournment of the House being moved,.Mr. Joyce called attention' to there being no provision made for the line fronvOre- 1 ,puki to Riverton.—Mr. Barfe expressed regret that no provision had been; made for carrying out the line from Hokitika to Greymouth,— Mr. Macandrew gave, his endorsation to what Mr. Joyce had said as to the necessity, for a railway between Riverton and Orepuki, The House adjourned at 8.55, p.m.