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CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

The quarterly meeting of the Chamber of Commerce was held yesterday afternoon. There was an unusually large attendance, and the chair was taken by Mr. Joe Drausfield, Chairman of the Chamber. MINUTES. The minutes of the previous meeting were read and confirmed. WHAM' EXTENSION. The Chaiuman: This is a quarterly general meeting, and it is my duty as Ohairmau to appi-ise you of the matters which have engaged the attention of the committee since the last meeting. There have been three questions considered. The first was that of the arrest of absconding debtors, and a proposal has been made that the Chamber should urge on the Government such legislation as would allow of absconding debtors being arrested by the agency of the telegraph. Then there has been a question raised on the law of bills of sale. This is. now in an eminently unsatisfactory state, because it allows a debtor to give a till of sale to one creditor to the prejudice of his other creditors. A motion on this subject will be submitted to you, which I hope will meet with your approval. The next is, perhaps, the most important question—that of additional wharf accommodation in connection with the Wellington and Masterton railway. I may say the committee learned that the Government were anxious to hear the views of the mercantile community of Wellington, and as representing that body a deputation from the Chamber waited upon the Hon. the Minister for Public Works. Perhaps before any discussion commences I sliould state what the deputation found to be the position of things, because there has been, I think, some misapprehension on the subject. I have here the Times report of what passed at the interview we had with the Government, and I will read the following extract to show the feeling of the Government:— Mr. Johnston said the deputation, first of all, would like to know whether the £25,000 voted for a railway wharf could he expended in reclaiming the land; whether, if the money were spent in connecting the wharf and the railway, that would be expending it within the spirit of the vote—in fact, whether if the present wishes of the Chamber were to be complied with the vote must lapse, and a new vote be taken? The Chamber of Commerce, if this were the case, would rather see the railway wharf gone on with—anything to prevent further delay. Mr. Ojimond: I should like to be perfectly plain on this point. I have made it my business to enquire as to the probable return from a railway wharf, and I am bound to say from the enquiries I have made such a wharf would not bo used to an extent that would result in its returning anything like an adeqxiate sum, or at least a sum which would justify the Government in spending the money. Although the money has been voted, the Government may not feel itself justified in spending the £25,000 unless there be a prospect of its being profitably expended. And I do not think if the present idea of the Chamber of Commerce were carried out that the £2s,ooooughttobo touched except topay thecostof reclaiming the extent of land actually required for railway purposes. He did not know what extent of land must be reclaimed alt gether.

Therefore the deputation gathered that, under any circumstances, the Government would not make a railway wharf, and the question sesmed to narrow itself down as to whether the suggestion made by the Government engineer for a reclamation from a point near Mills' Foundry to the first T of the Queen's wharf should be adopted, or whether the reclamation should proceed from the same starting point to the second T. This was the whole question, and the deputation decided in favor of a reclamation to the second T ; and after all that has been said I am still of opinion that it was the best course—that the committee acted wisely. Apparently there is a good deal of difference of opinion on that point, and the question must be fought out. However, I thick it can scarcely be gainsaid that if the plan recommended by the deputation be carried out, the block upon the wharf will be reduced, because on the reclaimed land will be erected distributing sheds into which the goods discharged from vessels will be shot, and there sorted for the merchants. The block upon the wharf is caused mainly by the aggregation of goods on the wharf, and these sheds would relieve us of this difficulty. It has been said there would be a loss of five berths, but the committee have had a plan prepared, and if any gentleman can show how that would occur, I shall be glad.

After some conversation as to the mode of discussion,

Mr. Waltek Johnston said : I will at once express my opinion upon the subject. I may say the deputation had no particular views of their own, but that a committee meeting was called, and after the whole matter had been discussed at length, it was decided to recommend the plan of reclaiming to the second T. Perhaps a review of the whole circumstances may not be out of place. We learnt that the first idea of the Government was to construct a railway wharf opposite Mulgrave-streot. The next thing we heard was that the Government instead of stopping the railway at that point proposed to connect it with the present Queen's wharf—a proposal which the committee of this Chamber thought would, if it were carried out, result in great advantage to the city. Then it was suggested that it would be an exceedingly good thing if the present breastwork were carired out to deep water. It is quite true that wharfage accommodation is now found at this breastwork for small coasting vessels ; but the accommodation is not of the best description, and it was thought that if the breastwork were carried out to the line between the second T and Mills' foundry excellent accommodation would be afforded for vessels of a larger class ; in fact, we should have 1000 feet of breastwork, with an average depth of water of 16 feet ; while the land lying within might be reclaimed, and utilised for the purpose of buildings sheds thereon, for the terminus of the railway, and for receiving and distributing the goods lauded on the wharf. It was also suggested that the laud so reclaimed would be more than sutficieut to meet the requirements of the Government, and that after all necessary conveniences had been secured in the shape of sheds, there would still be a surplus quantity of laud left, so valuable that it might possibly repay the whole cost of reclamation ; so that the charge upon the public in respect of the new accommodation would be exceedingly small not an unimportant consideration. It can scarcely be questioned, I think, there are many advantages to be derived from reclamation. As the Chairman has suggested, everyone who is in the habit of going on to the wharf will have seen the blocks that frequently occur, and I think he would have recognised, moreover, that those blocks arise from the fact that the wharf up to the first T is, so to speak, merely an approach to the wharf, and that this narrowTneck does not afford sufficient room for the traffic to pass on and off the wharf. If, then, the laud was reclaimed as proposed, the goods when lauded would be removed from the wharf with much greater facility and despatch. These wore the considerations which the deputation were appointed to urge on the Government. I confess it seems to me that it would be a good thing if the breastwork were carried out as proposed, and the railway and shipping connected in the centro of the towD. Therefore, to test the feeling of the Chamber, I shall move, —That the

Chamber approve the proposal of the Government to extend the reclamation to the middle T of the wharf so as to connect the railway and the shipping. Mr. Joseph Nathan seconded the proposition. He said it was unnecessary for him to make any lengthened remarks, but he entirely agreed with Sir. Johnston. Captain Molntyke : Before moving the amendment which I hold in my hand, I will say a few words as to why the question was taken up by myself and other gentlemen, members of this Chamber, and why we waited upon the Government. After the letter appeared in the papers written by the Minister of Public Works it was said that a majority of the members had no knowledge that a resolution which was previously passed at a full meeting of the members of the Chamber had been cancelled or rescinded. I believe you will find that resolution recorded in the minutes of a meeting held on the 10th November, 1875, and it is to the effect " that a deputation be appointed to wait upon the Minister of Public AVorks and urge upon him the desirability of at once proceeding with the erection of the railway wharf." That resolution was agreed to. The deputation waited upon the Minister of Public Works, who promised to consider the matter, and there is no record of any change of opinion on the part of the Chamber. That was one of the reasons that influenced myself and several other members of the Chamber in waiting upon the Minister of Public Works and requesting him to postpone any definite action until there had been a discussion in the Chamber upon a matter so important to the port of Wellington. Having given that explanation, I will make a few reremarks with reference to the proposed reclamation. It has been said that the proposed reclamation would increase the facilities. I have given the matter some careful consideral tion, and I am sorry to say I cannot come to the same conclusion. I find that we lose from four to five berths which we have at present, and that although reclamation will be carried farther out, the extent of accommodation at the new breastwork would not be increased in length—in fact, the distance from the second

T to Mills' foundry would not be any longer than the present line of breastwork. Now the present breastwork is quite capable of admitting vesselsjdrawing up to Bft. of water, for the purposes of loading aud discharging, aud the breastwork is invariably occupied, but if if you are goiug to drive them away from the breastwork you must find them accommodation elsewhere, at the Queen's wharf, from which you have already taken five berths. This seems to me very absurd. If we have accommodation for these vessels at the breastwork now, why go to an enormous expense to reclaim further out, when by doing so you can only give an average depth of 16ft., which is scarcely sufficient for the ordinary colliers which trade between this port and Newcastle? But it has been said that it will afford no accommodation for vessels, owing to the strong north-west winds which prevail in Wellington. It seems to me that the new. breastwork will be very unsafe, because the vessels will be placedin such a position astooffer themselves to the full force of the winds which generally prevail in Wellington. Certainly they will be more exposed than they are when lying at the present breastwork ; and even there last Saturday, during the north-west gale, it was found necessary to haul the vessels off. Then, again, the swell will be more severely felt; and if, as is proposed, the vessels are put against the sea wall, it will be more dangerous still. It has been said that the reclamation will relieve the present Queen's wharf materially, aud prevent the blocks that occur from time to time. What is the cause of the blocks. It is simply this : if you put 500 men on the pathway and let them go all one way there is no block ; but let twenty men meet the 500 and attempt to pass them, and there is a block immediately. The wharf is a simple medium of communication between the shipping and the shore, and the fault of our wharf is that it is not large enough for the purpose ; but if you make a railway wharf it will relieve the Queen's wharf considerably of the traffic, and there will be plenty of room. There is another thing to be considered. The City Council are increasing wharf accommodation, but this will only give extra berths for two large ships, and the effect of the enlargement will be quite done away with by the proposed reclamation. Now, in contrast to this, gentlemen, I would point to the benefit which would be obtained by carrying out the railway wharf to 800 or 1000 feet. 800 feet would, I consider, afford accommodation to about four English ships, besides coasters, and would meet all the requirements of the city for many years to come. I should call this wharf, the construction of which I advocate, a railway terminus aud export wharf for the purpose of receiving goods either coastwise or by railway from the country. Steamers would come alongside the wharf and discharge their goods into receiving sheds at the head of the wharf, thence into wool-presses, if necessary, aud as much work could be got through, with less labor but greater efficiency, than at present on the Queen's wharf. Moreover, I am perfectly satisfied, if the Government choose to construct this railway wharf they can recoup themselves by transferring it either to the City Council or to private individuals ; so that no difficulty presents itself in the direction of risk. I may say that sooner or later it will be necessary to have a second wharf, if the present proposal were gone on with, as it would appear fiom statistics that the shipping trade of Wellington is rapidly increasing, aud has increased at the rate of from £25,000 to £30,000 per annum during the past six years. Therefore I contend that it is absolutely necessary something should be done in the way of providing additioual accommodation for shipping immediately. I may also state that the plant necessary for carrying out this wharf is now on the reclaimed land ; aud if a bonus such as that offered by the Government for other public works in Wellington were expended on this work, I have no hesitation in saying, that the wharf could be made available for the incoming wool season. I think, therefore, gentlemen, that we should give our very careful consideration to the matter, particularly as it is desirable to encourage others at a distance to come to our port. That is the best course we can adopt to benefit ourselves after all. Another matter I wish to point out is this, that all the wool-pressing apparatus could be made to pay on the railway wharf, whether in the hands of private individuals or the City Council ; but that of course is a matter for after consideration. It does not matter, however, whether we receive a revenue from one wharf or from both. I have had considerable experience in matters such as we are now considering, and I have found in most parts of the world that it has been found necessary as shipping trade increased to have import and export wharves, in order that there should be no clashing in the work of discharging aud loading, and I am of opinion that the same necessity will be experienced in Wellington, whatever may be the result of the present discussion. I have, I think, pretty well expressed my views on the matter no w,and"unless any gentleman desires further explanations from me, I shall be prepared at once to move an amendment to the resolution proposed by Mr. Johnston. Mr. Andrew Young : Could vessels lie alongside the proposed new breastwork ? Captain Molntyke : Not with safety with a strong north-west wind blowing. I know personally that vessels cannot at times lie conveniently at the present breastwork, which, as I have explained, is very much more sheltered than the new breastwork would be.

Mr. Yocno : Could vessels come alongside 'and depart easily ? Captain Mclntybe : I should think not ; it is even difficult for steamers to_ get away from the present breastwork in certain.weather. Mr. YooNG : In the event of a railway wharf, as advocated by you, being constructed, what would be the effect in connection with the Queen's wharf ? Captain Mclntvhe : The effect would be to render the water smoother at the Queen's wharf. In fact, it would form a sort of dock, almost from the old wharf to the new ; and this would be an additional advantage. I will now move my amendment, which is as follows : _lst. That the proposed reclamation in the city of Wellington, as described in the letter dated 31st May, 1877, from the Minister of Public Works to Joe Drausfield, Esq., is

inadvisable on the following grounds :— (a). That it would greatly curtail the existing accommodation for shipping at the Queen's wharf, {b). That it would also render \iseles3 a considerable part of the improvements contracted to be made in that wharf under agreement with the City Council. (c). That it might entail the risk of silting up the outer end of the wharf. (d). That the proposed breastwork would be unsuitable for berthing vessels, (e). That the Queen's wharf, even when improved as contracted for, will only afford two additional berths for large ships, and would be quite inadequate by itself to meet the augmented ; traffic brought on it by the rapidly in creasing.traile of Wellington. 2nd. That the Government be requested to proceed as soon as possible with the construction of the railway wharf as authorised by the Legislature.

Mr. Bcbne : I beg leave to second the amendment, and in doing so I do not think it is necessary that I should say much, as Captain Melntyre has so fully explained the position which I should take up. The cry in Wellington for the last three or four years lias been for additional wharf accommodation, and there is no doubt that the cry is a just one, for no one who is in the habit of visiting the Queen's wharf can have failed. to see-that the accommodation which we at present have is totally inadequate to the demand. I*may say that I was one of those who formed a deputation to the Minister of Public Works on the subject, requesting him to delay taking action in regard to the proposal for a new breastwork until the opinion of the whole Chamber had been taken; and I am still of opinion that the action of the deputation was correct, as tending to promote the interests of the city, as there can be no question but that the proposal of Mr. Johnston would-not, if carried, have the effect of increasing the accommodation. On the contrary, it would reduce the accommodation, and we should be in a worse position than at present. The effect would, in short, be to deprive us of five berths now available on the Queen's wharf, besides shuttingout the coasting vessels from the breastwork. It has been publicly stated that the deputation who waited on the Minister for Public Works and urged delay in this wharf question, were interested parties. Well, gentlemen, for my own part I simply disclaim that; and I think I may do so on behalf of the others who formed that deputation. I believe, if the breastwork were carried out as proposed, it would certainly be an accommodation to the New Zealand Steam Shipping Co., which I have the honor to represent, because our own steamers could come opposite our own doors, or nearly so. I think, therefore, I may with confidence disclaim having been actuated by interested motives in the course I, with other gentlemen, thought it desirable to adopt. Our only object was to improve the harbor accommodation of Wellington ; ami it seems to me that there can be little difficulty in seeing that there were good grounds for acting as the deputation did. If you adopt the proposal of Mr. Johnston, you will have to wait three or four years before the work is finished, and during that time the shipping interest will have to suffer the want of necessary accommodation ; whereas, on the other hand, the railway wharf could be constructed within twelve months at the outside. These are my views, gentlemen, and I therefore beg to second Captain Melntyre's amendment. Mr. George : I think the whole of the arguments adduced by Captain Melntyre and the last speaker were answered by the Chairman in his preliminary remarks. Those gentlemen appeared to proceed on the assumption that any action taken by this Chamber would induce the Government to construct a railway wharf ; but you, sir, explained at the outset that no action of the committee would have had that effect, and therefore you have really answered all the arguments brought forward against this proposal. No doubt Captain Melntyre was quite right in referring to the resolutions passed by this Chamber respecting the railway wharf, aud he scored a point there, so to speak. But thS'fesolution he referred to was passed a long time ago, and the circumstances of the case have entirely altered since then. I think it is a very great misfortune for Wellington that members of this Chamber should have taken it upon themselves to wait upon the Government to induce delay in a work which so the welfare of the city, because it will be remembered that the vote of £35,000 will lapse on the 30th of the present month ; and now there is scarcely time to take the necessary action to proceed with the work before the session commences. The limited time at their disposal was one of the reasons which induced the committee to take immediate action in the matter, for the purpose of inducing the Government to proceed with the work of providing additional wharf accommodation in the manner proposed. I do not think much weight should bo attached to the argument that certain berths would be lost by adopting the proposal of the committee. The only vessels affected would be small coasters ; aud as to the statement of Captain .\ 1 clntyre that vessels drawing eight feet can be accommodated, I may say that there is only one berth of such a depth, and nearly all of the vessels that lie alongside the breastwork are aground except at high water. As to the management of the wharf, I may say that I, as a Councillor, have some knowledge of the matter, and I have come to the conclusion from personal observation that a good deal of difficulty in the management of the wharf is due to the want of proper facilities for removing goods from the wharf after being landed from the vessels alongside ; and the benefit of this proposal is that it would provide additional freedom for this traffic, and goods could be removed very much more quickly than at present. Ido not think much of the argument of Captain Melntyre on this point, his illustration of men walking on a footpath seeming to have no bearing on the point. I admit that there, is a good deal in that gentleman's objection as to the effect of the solid breastwork upon the water. It was not proposed, however, to allow vessels ■ to lie directly alongside the breastwork, but to erect a narrow wharf in front of the breastwork, for the accommodation of vessels ; this at once removed Captain Mclntyre's objection. So far as the silting up is concerned, I do not think we need trouble ourselves much about that, because the committee also had it in view that this reclamation would form part of a complete scheme. It was suggested if all the land were reclaimed in a straight line from Pipitea Point to the Te Aro foreshore, it would make a very satisfactory reclamation, and that part which it was proposed to proceed with according to the resolution of the committee would, as I have before stated, form part of a complete scheme. On the other hand, if this railway wharf were constructed, it would be so much money thrown into the sea, because a great part of the space occupied by such wharf would have to be "filled in. With regard to what Captain Melntyre "said as to the title he would ' give the nevf wharf, I do not think its would be well to make a division between exports imports. I am of opinion that if the'work oj. discharging and loading at one wharf can be accom plished the interests of trade would be better suited than by having separate wharfs for imports and exports, beGause it stands to reason that not only is a saving of time and labor effected, but it is a great convenience for purposes of transhipment. I acknowledge that whilst this reclamation is going on the smaller coastal vessels will have some difficulty' in finding berths ; but Captain Melntyre appears to forget that in a very small time indeed there will be the whole of the frontage of the Thorndon reclamation available, .li I think it is much to be regretted that those- gentlemen \vU» formed the deputation to the. Minister of Public Works should have taken the action they did . in this matter. There can bo no doubt that they have done more harm than good. I xm. quite prepared to believe that they were actuated by the best motives, but nevertheless they made a great mistake. Captain Williams said : I have sailed round New Zealand since the year 1860, and daring that time I have necessarily seen a good deal of the ports of the colony. In Auckland, many years ago, vessels used to land their goods in cargo-boats ; now, however, Auckland has a splendid wharf ; and if persons unacquainted with the progress made in the principal seaports of the colony could only see the accommodation they have in Auckland, lyttelton,

Port Chalmers, anil even the Bluff, and then look at the accommodation for shipping m Wellington, thev would be surprised. We have here the best harbor in New Zealand, and yet we are supplied with the worst wharf accommodation ; simply, I believe, because we cannot get the people to work harmoniously together in the direction of improvement. I feel convinced that if a railway wharf were constructed to-morrow, it would prove profitable; and if the Government did not enre to retain control of it, there are many gentlemen in Wellington would be glad to take it off their hands. I would, for one, I can assure you. 1 now make a few remarks as to the proposal for extending the breastwork to the deep-water line, and in the first place, I am of opinion that vessels could not conveniently lie there, because even now certain prevalent winds endanger the small vessels which are accustomed to discharge at the breastwork. In proof of this, I may state that quite recently I had occasion to get up verv earlv one morning and visit the wharf, when'some'of the vessels lying against the breastwork found a great difficulty in holding on, as the water was rushing over their bows. This heiug so, at present I am of opiuion that if you take the reclamation further round, the position of vessels lying there will be infinitely more uncomfortable. These are my views, gentlemen, and I think we should best serve the interests of the city and shipping trade by accepting the proposal to have the railway wharf constructed. Captain Thomas : I should like to ask one important question, Mr. Chairman. When does the present vote lapse ? The Chairman : It lapses on the 30th of tho present month. Captain Thomas : And what then. Are we likely to get it agiin. Do we lose the £25,000 if the vote lapses ? The Chairman : According to my experience of Parliaments it is not wise to risk asking for a revote if we can avoid it. Mr. E. W. Mills : Are not the Government committed to the vote by reason of their having sent for about one-third of the timber for it ? The Chairman : 1 do not know. Mr. Mills : I should think so. Mr. Greenfield : This is the first time I have seen this plan, and I should like to say a few words. I agree with the original motion in so far as furtht. r reclamation is concerned, but I have my doubts as to whether it should not be carried from Mills' Foundry to the first T. The present depth of water is inconveniently low, because it is only vessels of a light draught which can get to the breastwork, and when they are there they are merely lying upon the " hard " all on one side, so that the wharfage accommodation it affords practically amounts to nil. The breastwork at any rate ought to furnish the accommodation required for the small craft which visit our port; and I think our object would be achieved were we to carry the reclamation to the first T only. So far as the amendment goes, I cannot agree with it, because I do not see the necessity of a railway wharf in Wellington. The position of our port is very different to the ports of Christchurch and Dunediu (Lyttelton and Port Chalmers respectively), er even the Bluff, where everything is clone by the railway ; and what we want is a large accommodation for our shipping, and the railway brought into the middle of the town. Mr. F. A. Keull : As one of the deputation, I would like to say a few words. When the question came up for consideration at the committee meeting, a good deal of attention was paid to it, and there were a great many different opinions expressed; but we came to the conclusion that a reclamation would be best; and since then I have heard nothing to affect my opinion. Our idea of the plan was that it would relieve the wharf of the blocks which occur so frequently,because provision would be made for large distributing sheds; and this feature I still think is quite enough to induce us to adopt the plan. At these distributing sheds the goods discharged from the vessels would be sorted for the merchants. But there is another point. That the reclamation should be carried to the second T was considered desirable, because there would be thus afforded plenty of room for the erection of one large bonded warehouse, an advantage one cannot be too urgent in seeking for, as the concentration of work must necessarily le39en the expense to merchants. I was exceedingly sorry to see that four gentlemen had taken it upon themselves to wait upon the Government in order to thwart the action of the committee of the Chamber of Commerce. I never heard of any other gentlemen having cast such a slur upon a Chamber of Commerce of which they were members, and I think it is a great pity that so unusual a course should have been adopted od this occasion. If the Chamber means to do any good it must be a united body, and if it is united it will be powerful ; because I am. convinced there is no body with greater strength than a united Chamber of Commerce. Why did these gentlemen not act through the Chamber ? If we have any difficulty, let it be decided by a vote of the Chamber, but let us not show to the outside public that we are at war with one another. It is a well established rule among Englishmen that the majority rules, and it was for those who were discontented to have taken the very simple course of calling a meeting of the Chamber, and so have secured a full discussion. Seven or eight members could have done that, and it would soon have been seen who were in tho majority. I can only say, if we do not increase facilities for shipping, the ►blame must be laid on the shoulders of these [four gentlemen. For ray part, I cannot see why there should be any opposition to the proposed x>lan. One gentleman says coasters can now lie at the breastwork. It is true that small craft can go there, and the discharged cargo is allowed to remain lying on the breastwork for four or five days without its being charged with wharfage ; but is that any reason why we should not carry out the reclamation to deep water, so that accommodation may be provided for large vessels ? So far as the objection against vessels lying against the sea wall, I may state it has always been intended that there should be fenders, so that vessels should not be hurt. We did not come to a decision in this matter without being guided by men of experience ; we took the advice of experienced men. For instance, Captain Rose quite Agreed with us ; and many other gentlemen, quite able to form an opinion, say it is an exceedingly good plan. There had been a cry about taking away five berths. As a fact, we do nothing of the kind ; but even so, matters might be arranged so that these five berths should not bo lost till compensating accommodation was secured by the breastwork. There was no necessity for the reclamation being closed in at the inner part of the T till within the last two or three months. As to a railway wharf, I think it would be a great mistake in Wellington. The great object is to lessen charges ; but two wharves entail two staffs of clerks, and these increased charges must add to the expenses of the port. I do not mean to say that we must for ever be bound to one wharf. I have no doubt that in time to come, as our trade ad vances, we shall have a timber wharf and a coal wharf, and so forth; but at the present time we do not require a railway wharf, nor are we likely to require one for a considerable time ; and I hope the motion before the meeting will be carried by a large majority. (Applause.) Mr. Howard Wallace: In listening to the remarks of several gentlemen who have spoken it struck me that there was one little matter entirely overlooked. It 13 said there will be greatly increased facilities in the shape of distributing »hed3 and goods warehouses; but we hear on the other hand that the Government propose to recoup themselves the expenses of the reclamation, £25,000, by the sale of the land. If this is the case I think there will be very slight additions to the facilities. The advantage of the reclamation will be taken away by the sale of the land. That is rather an important point, and I shall be glad if the Chairman will let me know if I understand the matter correctly. I would also like, to know what amount of. the £25,000 the Government have already expended in timber for the railway wharf, and how far the timber is capable of being used in the reclamation. The Chairman : In reply to Mr. Wallace, I rnay say Mr. Ormond was of opinion that there would be Home land for sale after tho requirements of the public had been met—including sites for store-sheds, railway terminus,

&c. There would be five acres in all, and it was anticipated this would not all be used up in buildings. Captain Mclntyre : I should like to say— The Chairman : You cannot speak again. Mr. Wallace: The mover of an amendment has the right of reply. The Chairman : It may be presumptuous on my part to dispute the dictum of a gentleman who has held the high office of Chairman of Committees of the Provincial Council ; but even with that excelleut authority, I cannot allow that the mover of an amendment has the right to reply. Mr. W. Bishop : It seems to me that it has not been shown that we shall have increased wharf accommodation if the proposal of the committee be carried out ; in fact, I rather I think it will be decreased. For instance, there is no doubt five berths will be lost. j The Chairman : Will you show 113 the berths? , , . Mr. Bisnor : There are the berths on eaoti side of the T, the two lying between, and the inner berth ot the second T. That is five berths. They are in use now, being occasionally occupied by the Nelson steamer the Kennedv, the Napier, and the Tin ; and we want them at all times. In fact, during the last three weeks there has not been a single berth at the wharf. The other day the Manawatu steamed right round, and was unable to find a berth. Nor do I think there has been any answer to the proposition that vessels would not lie safely at the new breastwork. Are we then to put vessels at a spot where they would be more affected by the wind, less sheltered by the houses, and more liable to the swell of the surface waters than thev are at present ? It has been said that the "block on the wharf is owing to the narrowness of the entrance to the wharf ; but any person who has beeu accustomed to visit the wharf will know that the blocks do not occur at the entrance to the wharf, but between the middle T's ; therefore Mr. George, who used this argument, is wrong iu his assumption that the wharf will be relieved by the reclamation. I shall support the amendment, because I cousider it would be a premature step, in-the interests of Wellington, for an embankment to be made which will certainly close up five of the'present berths, and probably be unsafe for vessels to lie at. As to the argument that we may not get the .£25,000 if we do not snap it up at once, surely Wellington is not in such a position. If the expenditure is absolutely required in the interests of the city Parliament will not refuse it. Mr. Harcodrt : The opponents of the committee's plan seem to run away with the idea that the proposed breastwork will not be safe for vessels to lie against; but I do not thiuk that any one who has visited the wharf at times when there is a strong wind will attach much weight to the argument. On several occasions I have seen vessels lying almost broadside on to the wharf, and I caunot believe it is less safe for vessels to lie in a position where they will be much more head to wind. But if the execution of the proposed plan would result in an unsafe breastwork, there is no reason why there should not be a modification, so that the reclamation should be done in steps, as suggested by Captain Holliday. . I quite agree that two wharves would require two staffs, which would be expensive not only to owners of vessels but also to the port. Mr. Roxburgh: I have waited to hear what argument would be brought forward to induce me to change the opinions I entertained in favor of the resolution arrived at by the committee, and I must say that I have heard none. We have heard a great deal about this breastwork, and that vessels could not lie there safely ; but Mr. George has distinctly stated that the intention is to put a platform in front of the breastwork, so that vessels lying alongside shall not be subjected to danger. We are all agreed that it is necessary to provide such wharf accommodation as will enable vessels speedily to discharge and load, and it seems to me that the scheme proposed by the committee fully provides for that want which is acknowledged at present to exist, the intention being that railway trucks can go alongside the vessels and receive their cargo, which may immediately be carried into sheds on the main land. The reclamation of the Te Aro foreshore will provide berth accommodation for the smaller vessels, and this is a feature claiming consideration, because I think I am safe in saying that the outlet for very much of the heavy goods that lumber up our wharf is at the Te Aro end of the town, and not at Thorndon. We shall, in the course of time, require further wharf accommodation than that now proposed; but we have now to consider present requirements, and the course suggested will relieve us of many of the difficulties which now present themselves, and X am perfectly confident that the scheme will commend itself to the consideration of the Chamber.

Mr. Tolhukst said: I would not have ventured to obtrude my opinions on the Chamber after so much had been said on the question at issue" but that I feel one or two points have been overlooked in matters of detail. In connection with the proposed alteration of our wharf frontage, the objections raised were that it would diminish the number of berths, and that the frontage to the sea would be one from which it would be almost impossible to get away. Now lam quite satisfied that these are mere matters of detail, and that the Government will be quite able, after hearing the opinions of those gentlemen who have had some experience and possess considerable knowledge of the winds of Wellington, to amend their plans, and not only make it possible for their vessels to get away from the breastwork with ease, but also they can make the reclamation and water frontage no less than they now are, with this great advantage, that the water will be much deeper, and vessels of large size coming to this port can lie there. An extraordinary advantage in connection with the scheme is that the railway trucks will run on to the T at which the English vessels load. Not only will the wharf be relieved of a considerable amount of railway traffic, but the truck system will enable the goods to be delivered in sheds on the land which is to be made by the reclamation at a cost which, comparatively speaking, is quite inappreciable. In other places where wharves have been extended to afford additional accommodation for shipping, vessels twice the size of any of those which come to this port have been unloaded in the course of 48 hours, and the cargoes placed in sheds, to be distributed as people required them, no charge being made for the unloading, in consequence of the great facilities afforded. lam quite satisfied, if the gentleman at this meeting will only consent to Mr. Johnston's proposal, that the result will be of great benefit to the city of Wellington, and I hope, if Captain McIntyre will not"withdraw his amendment, that at all events a large majority will be found to agree to the resolution. Mr. Bahnett : I am strongly inclined to support the original resolution, because it possesses a doubleadvautage. Its effect willbe to give to the city additional wharf accommodation, whilst the very necessary work of reclamation will be considerably advanced, at the same time that it will not in any way interfere with the original design for reclaiming the whole of the foreshore. I carefully listened to what Captain Mclntyre said as to the convenience of having wool-presses, sheds, &c, on the railway wharf, for the construction of which he was an advocate ; but I would point out to that gentleman that to have these works on the reclaimed land would be much easier to accomplish in the first place, and, in the next, would be productive of far greater convenience to the public. The railway wharf in a few years would only stand in the way of the work of reclamation which, in my opinion, has done more for Wellington than anything else.

Mr. JOHNSTON : I should like, Mr. Chairman, to make a few remarks regarding the speeches which have been delivered in the course of the discussion on this subject. The principal reason which I have heard urged against the proposal of the committee is that, to a certain extent, it cuts off our present wharfage accommodation, principally because the present breastwork will be included in tho proposed reclamation. I admit that coasters and a small number of other vessels may be deprived of the accommodation they now enjoy ; but we must not overlook the fact that by extending the breastwork to deep water we

provide accommodation for a larger class of vessels. To complain that we will not have the present breastwork after the reclamation is carried out to deep water is as reasouable as for men of our age to complain that we cannot wear our boy's jackets. Having out"■rown them, of course we cannot. Turning to another aspect of the question, it has been stated that it would be a positive advantage to have two wharves, and divide the export and import business of the port; but lam quite unable to see that such would be the case. In the first place, the imports would come to the present wharf, as they do now ; nearly the whole of the exports are brought here by sea; and I think there can be no doubt in the minds of expeiieuced men that it would be of the greatest advantage to the mercantile community at large that steamers and vessels bringing goods to Wellington for exportation should be enabled to discharge at tho wharf where they will load the goods to be carried on their return voyage. Then it has been said that even with the additional wharf accommodation to be acquired by the extension of the Queen's wharf, which is now being contracted for, aud also the extension of the breastwork to deep-water line, there will be an insufficiency of accommodation. I myself believe that we shall in time require to provide additional facilities for tho convenience of shipping frequenting this port. Surely that presents no reason for asking the Government to terminate the railway at Mulgrave-street, and that is precisely the effect of Captain Mclntyre's amendment. The whole of the Queen's wharf are now devoted to its maintenance, aud to the extension of wharf accommodation, the Corporation having no power to expend the money in any other way ; aud as I believe the revenue derived from the wharf is very much more than what is necessary to keep it in repair, the money required for the further extension of wharf accommodation is being annually contributed. There can be no doubt that if this amendment is carried, and the Government determine to stop the railway at Mulgrave-street, and construct a wharf there, we shall lose the opportunity of having the railway brought into the centre of the town. With regard to the harbor frontage, I may mention that Captain Williams in a private conversation expressed fear that the Government would sell portions of the frontage, and thus furnish people with private wharves to compete with the public ones. At his request I went to Mr. Ormond, aud asked him if the Government had any idea of selling the frontages of the land to be reclaimed. Mr. Ormond replied, " Certainly not; the frontage will be reserved as a public quay." As to Mr. .Greenfield's suggestion, that .it would answer the purpose of bringing the railway to the centre of the town if the reclamation were limited to the first T, I would point out that we should thereby gain less than by the present proposal, inasmuch as we should not sufficiently increase the depth of water to admit the larger class of vessels, which it is especially desirous to accommodate. I think I have now said all that is necessary in support of the opinions I expressed at an earlier stage of the meeting, and I hope the considerations I have (mentioned will induce the meeting to arrive at the conclusion that they will best serve the interests of the port of Wellington by supporting my proposition. Mr. Dranseield said : I desire to take advantage of my privilege of speaking to the amendment on one or two points only. With reference to the statement so repeatedly made, that five berths would be taken away, I say distinctly, and it can be proved by other gentlemen, that the statement is erroneous. We shall only take away about 400 feet of wharf accommodation, and give 800 feet, with a much increased depth of water. I agree with Mr. Krull in his remarks regarding the action of the four gentlemen who formed a deputation to the Minister of Public Works. I think it is unfortunate that they did not take what I consider would have been a constitutional course, and ask that a general meeting of the Chamber should be called to discuss their views. I hope that in future the latter course will be followed. If we have differences of opinion amongst us, we should confine them to our own battle-ground, and not take them outside. Mr. Duncan said : I have listened with great attention ■to the arguments I have heard on both sides of the, question. I very much regret that private business prevented my being present at the meetings of the committee and hearing the reasons which induced them to recommend the plan they submitted to the Government. I never felt greater difficulty in deciding on the vote I.should give as to any question, and I regret, that it is not possible to take time for further consideration. A great deal has been said on the side of those who object to the original resolution, but the weight of argument is certainly in favor of the recommendation of the committee. The amendment was then put, and negatived by a large majority. The original resolution was unanimously carried. BILLS OP SALE. Mr. JOHNSTON said he had had placed in his hands a motion relative to the law relating to bills of sale, which was admitted to be very unsatisfactory as it at present stood. The motion was as follows :—That in the opinion of this Chamber the following alteration in the law is desirable with respect to bills of sale given by traders over stock-in-trade : —That such a bill of sale should be absolutely void as against the claim of any creditor existing at the date of the bill of sale. That it should cease to have any force or effect at the expiration of twelve months from its date, unless registered. That-a copy of this resolution be forwarded to other Chambers of Commerce, and their co-operation invited. Mr. Dransfield supported the motion, and mentioned that the "Victorian Parliament had found it necessary to introduce a Bill embodying the proposals contained in the motion before the Chamber. Mr. Kkull seconded the motion, and hoped that Mr. Walter Johnston would take charge of the Bill giving effect to the motion. The motion was then put to the meeting and carried. PROSECUTIONS BY A TRUSTEE IN BANKRUPTCY. Mr. Roxburgh said he had a matter of some little interest to bring before the Chamber. During last week tho creditors of a certain person had found it necessary to take criminal proceedings against him for having fraudulently made away with his goods. The trustee of the estate had endeavored to get the Crown to prosecute; but the request had been refused, and the whole of the expense therefore fell upon the creditors. It was absolutely necessary that proceedings should bo taken, therefore the creditors had to indemnify tho trustee from all consequences. This was rather a hardship, aud he hoped the Chamber would endeavor to have a change made iu this respect. An the hour was late the meeting took no steps in the matter. FINANCE. The Chairman said there was other business to bring before the meeting ; but, as the time was getting on, it must be postponed. However, he might Bay that Hie financial state of tho Chamber was highly satisfactory. There was a deposit in the Trust and Loan Company at interest of £2OO, aud they had £lB2 in the bank. This was probably the most satisfactory statement any Chamber in the colony could make. The meeting then adjourned. NEW MEMBERS. The following gentlemen were elected memj bers :—Messrs. C. 15. Zohrab, W. T. li. Travcrs, M.H.K., L. Moss, A. Boardman, and Wm. Booth, of Taratahi.

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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM18770621.2.11

Bibliographic details
Ngā taipitopito pukapuka

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5068, 21 June 1877, Page 2

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8,780

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5068, 21 June 1877, Page 2

CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. New Zealand Times, Volume XXXII, Issue 5068, 21 June 1877, Page 2

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