HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4867, 27 October 1876, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday, October. 26. The Speaker took the chair at half-past tWo o’clock. LEAVE OP ABSENCE. " Oh the motion of Mr. o’Rorkb_ leave of absence was'granted to Captain -Morris for the remainder of the session. MESSAGE PROM THE GOVERNOR. The Sartoris Downes Claims Bill was introduced by message from his Excellency, read a first time, and its second reading fixed for next day. - QUESTIONS. ■ , Mr. NAHE asked the Premier,— If the Government will give effect to the recommendation of the Native Affairs Committee on the petition of Meha te Moanauui and others, referred to the Government on the 20th September 1 ■ \_ The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government approved of the recommendation, and would issue instructions accordingly. Mr. KOLLESTON asked the Government. _What provision they have made for payments for railway works and building in the province of Canterbury, after the railways become colonial property ? The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said provision had been made in the estimates of the Provincial Government of Canterbury for these works, and would so continue until the 31st December; after that they would be taken oyer as provincial liabilities. Mr. J. C. BROWN asked the PostmasterGeneral, —When it is intended to occupy the late courthouse at Lawrence as a post office ? The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said so soon as the new courthouse was ready for occupation. THE WELLINGTON LOANS CONSOLIDATION BILL. A message from the Legislative Council notified that they had passed this Bill with amendments.—Mr. Pearce proposed that the amendments be agreed to, except a new clause proposed for clause 18, and that the Hon. Major Atkinson and Messrs. Pearce and Hunter he appointed managers to draw up the reasons for disagreeing with this clause. The motion was carried. new bill. Mr. LARNACH obtained leave to introduce a, Bill to enable the residents in the interior of Otago and Southland to make a loop line of railway from Gore to the Elbow, for the convenience of the population in those districts, and to facilitate their communication with Dunedin, which was read a first time, and its second reading fixed for Tuesday next. PROVINCIAL ABOLITION PERMISSIVE BILL. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the second reading of this Bill in a speech of some length, in which he stated that for several years, by means of a most improper nature, the Government had been destroying the people of New Zealand, and trying to degrade the mass of the colonists by depriving them of their liberties. A spurious -aristocracy had also been created by giving illegal grants of large tracts of land to favored individuals. A Civil Service of an unusual character had been created in the colony, and the non-elected Upper House had been filled by civil servants, who had then been made Ministers of the Crown. The consequences of this were most disastrous to the colony. An unlawful title of “ Honorable” had been bestowed on members of Parliament here, under letters patent from Home, which were clearly illegal Sir George devoted some time to discussing the question of life peerages. This was all part of the plan by which the Government had endeavored to deprive the people of their rights and privileges. Sham titles were borne by members of Parliament here, which Parliament should refuse to allow them. Efforts were also made to deface the people. The last effort now was to; centre absolute power and dominion over every part of the islands in Wellington and the Civil Service. In order to accomplish this, the Government had carefully provided that the country should be unfairly represented in Parliament. The rotten borough system, which had been swept away in England, had been restored in New Zealand under a more aggravated form. With sorrow Sir George had heard the Premier once say,-“Let those laugh who win.” The Ministry had mounted to power by means which honorable men would despise, and that was not winning. Such a sight as giving Sir Julius Yogel £SOO the other day in Wellington had never before been Seen in the history of the civilised world, and was a most melancholy one, which would only win infamy from the future historian. The present Bill desired the rights and privileges which all the people of the Empire were entitled to. Mr. MANDERS considered Sir George Grey’s speech unworthy of himself and the occasion. As a man who had worked in the colony as a miner, a sawyer, and in other capacities, he repudiated Sir George Grey’s revolutionary appeals to the people, whom he insulted: by doubting their loyalty. ; - The Hon Major ATKINSON briefly stated that the Government would oppose the Bill. Such arguments as Sir George had used had been answered over and over again. Abolition was not the result of the machinations of any Ministry, hut was, the consequence of the action of "Parliament, approved by the people of New’Zealand, and he was proud of having taken part in that action. He was quite satisfied that the people of the colony could mould the Constitution to a satisfactory end. The power to do this had now been really placed in their-hands.

Dr. HODGKINSON thought that no man who had a respect for his character would countenance the Abolition Bill. Mr. TOLE said that if the Government would adopt the present Bill they would retrieve their reputations. It was discouraging, however, to speak in the matter, seeing so little apparent interest taken in it. Mr. REES reviewed the constitutional history of the colony and the proceedings of the session. He asked the people of the country to consider the advantages of provincialism, on which he dilated at length. Sir' GEORGE GREY having replied, a . division was taken, when the second reading of the Bill was lost by 36 to 23. The following is the division list:— Avis.—Brown J. C., Bums, Be Lautour, Dignan, Fisher Grey, Hamlin, Hlslop, Hodgkinson, Joyce, ' Lnmsden, Lush. Hahe, O’Eorke, Bees (teller), Eeld, Kolleston, Seaton, Sheehan, Swanson, Thomson, Tole (teller), Wood W. Nobs.—Andrew (teller), Atkinson, Barff, Bowen, Brandon, Bryce, Button, Carrington, Curtis, Douglas, Fltzroy, Gibbs. Hunter, Hursthonse, Johnston, Kelly (teller), Kennedy, Kenny. Handers, McLean G., Montgomery, Murray, Ormond, Bearce, Reynolds, Richardson, Eowe, Stafford, Stevens, Tawitl. Teschemaker. Tribe, Wason, Whitaker, Williams, 'Woolcock. MEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY ACT AMENDMENT DILL. On the motion of Mr. Andrew, this Bill was discharged from the Order Paper. - NATIVE GRANTEES' BILL. On Mr. Button moving that' the House go into committee on this Bill, Mr Sheehan moved as an amendment that it be discharged from the Order Paper; and after discussion the amendment was carried on the voices. MILTON ATHEN-CTM BILL. This Bill was read a second time, committed, read a third time, and passed. TRIENNIAL PARLIAMENTS. Sir GEORGE GREY moved that this Bill be read a second time. He said the change was necessary, as public opinion bad much advanced, and questions arose in such quick succession that it was desirable for the people to have an opportunity of controlling their representatives. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER said the question of the duration of Parliaments did require consideration, but the matter could not be fully gone Into this session. Electoral reform generally must bo considered early next session, but on the present occasion he must move the previous question. Mr. STEVENS said he was in favor of the Bill, considering a change desirable owing to the new order of things about being inaugurated. Changes in public opinion were frequent, and it was desirable the changes should he reflected in the Parliament. He did not approve of the objection generally taken, that the public mind should not be disturbed, for he thought it desirable the people should he educated to take a lively interest in politics. Dr, HENRY opposed the Bill on the ground of expense to the country and inconvenience to members representing scattered constituencies. Mr. BARPP said for one argument in favor of triennial Parliaments a thousand could be

urged against. He objected to the change because of * the inconvenience andexpenae.and said it wouldleadtothe introduction of a system of pocket boroughs. , Practically the people had the power of getting nd of an improper representative by asking him to resign, because the effect of a request to resign coming from a majority of his constituents would place a member who continued to hold his seat beneath the contempt of his fellow-members. Mr. MONTGOMERY thought a system of triennial Parliaments the only means of giving the people a potential voice in the affairs of the country. More changes occurred in the colonies in three years than took place in five years at Home. After a few remarks from Dr. Hodgkinson, Mr. Manders, and Mr. Fhzrot, Mr. TOLE said he should vote for the Bill, because, owing to the rapidly-increasing population, it was necessary to have frequent elections. He quoted the increases which had taken place while previous Parliaments had been in existence, and argued that owing to the increase from 1871 to 1875 a large number of persons had been unrepresented when the Abolition Act was passed. Mr. SWANSON said the -people would be content with nothing less than annual Parliaments in future time.

Mr. FISHER supported the Bill. Sir GEORGE GREY in reply accused the Government of acting unfairly. They were afraid to stand up manfully and oppose the Bill in the face of the country, and in a cowardly manner moved the previous question. On a division the Bill was thrown out by 32 to 22. The following is the division list;— Ayes.—Baigent, Bo Lautour, Bignan, Fisher. Filaroy, Grey, Hamlin, Hodgkinson, Joyce, Kenny, Lusk, Montgomery. Nahe, O’Korke, Bees, Seaton, Sharp, Sheehan, Swanson, Talaroa, Thomson, ana Noes.—Andrew, Atkinson, Barff, Bowen, Brandon, Bryce, Carrington, Douglas, Gibbs, Henry, Hunter, Hursthonse, Johnston, Kelly, Kennedy, Lumsden, Manders, McLean G.. Murray, Ormond, Reid B„ Reynolds, Richardson, Rolleston, Shrimski, Stafford, Tawiti, Tesohemaker, Wakefield, Wason, Whitaker, and Woolcock, BOTANIC GARDENS LEASING BILL. This Bill was read a second time and committed. In committee the Hon. Major Atkinson said the Bill probably was the outcome of the disallowance of the vote in aid of the gardens ; but he had seen the Deputy-Superinten-dent of Wellington, who was prepared to place the sum on the Provincial Estimates, and therefore he would suggest - that the Bill should be laid aside.—The Hon. Mr. Stafford said he should much prefer that course should be taken,. but he; could not do anything without consulting the governors. The Bill might be passed through committee pro forma, and he would not press it further unless it became necessary to do so. —Mr. Hunter said he should not oppose the Bill, but he thought the money might have been raised in Wellington without cutting up and leasing part of the gardens.—The Hon. Mr. Reynolds objected to the leasing of the gardens, as did also Mr. Walter Johnston, who said the citizens would rather pay the money than see the gardens cut up.—Mr. Hamlin moved that the Chairman leave the chair.—Agreed to. —The Bill was therefore shelved. 1 OTAGO EDUCATIONAL RESERVES MANAGEMENT BILL. This Bill was considered in committee, amended, read a third time, and passed. WELLINGTON CORPORATE LANDS BILL. This Bill was considered in committee, reported with amendments, read a" third time, and passed. THAMES AND WAIKATO RAILWAY BILL. Sir GEORGE GREY was about moving the second reading of this Bill, when the Speaker said the third section imposed a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue, and the Bill, therefore, should he introduced in the ordinary way, after the consent of the Crown had been obtained. After" some little discussion the Bill was laid aside. CIVIL LIST ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The House went into committee to consider his Excellency’s message No. 22, transmitting the draft of a Bill to amend the Civil List Act. Mr. SHEEHAN objected to the introduction of this Bill, which provided for the addition to the Civil List of a salary for a Minister of Education. He thought the work could be done by the present Minister of Justice; and it was too late this session te consider the Bill. Mr. BRANDON also opposed the introduction of the Bill. Dr. HENRY said if there was to be a new portfolio it should be that of a Minister of Mines.

Mr. WOOLCOCK spoke to the same effect. Mr. BEES said the provisions of the Bill were contradictory to those of the Disqualification Act passed the previous evening, and it could not be proceeded with. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER explained that the objection taken by Mr. Bees was untenable; and speaking to the general question, said another Minister was necessary to overtake the business of the country, in consequence of abolition. Sir GEORGE GREY opposed the Bill, and said there were more Ministers now than were required. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS also hoped the Government would not press the Bill, for this continual increasing of expenditure would be very unsatisfactory to abolitionists themselves. Besides, owing to the lateness of the session, there was a small House. - ■ Mr. ROLLESTON said the hon. member for Port Chalmers must have known that more expense would be necessary. He (Mr. Rolleston) affirmed that -more Ministers and more clerks were necessary in consequence of the harura scarum abolition scheme. One thing required explanation ; that was, who was to carry on the business of the country during the recess? The House had been told that four Ministers were going to retire. _ Then who was to carry on the administration ? The great thing now was good : administration, and he hoped the House would get some information on the subject; but he should support the Government on this matter of another Minister, because the Government’, who had to administer the Abolition Act, had a right to ask'for more assistance if they required it.' The hon. member for Port Chalmers wag one of the last who should have opposed iL. The Hon. Major ATKINSON' said he was: satisfied the business of the country could not be properly carried on without the aid of additional Ministers, particularly seeing that there was so much to be done in the immediate future. It the House were content to ( allow the country to be governed by clerks, it would refuse to increase the staff of Ministers; but if it was to be governed • by Ministers, more gentlemen must be placed in i office. The great difficulty was ■ to get Ministers' who understood New Zealand.; Plenty could be got who knew all about par-: ticular places, but that was not sufficient, and Ministers required time to visit various parts of the colony to get information for the purpose of reorganising. However, the House seemed to be against the proposal, and he should move; that the Chairman report progress. Mr. SHEEHAN said his opinion was that Ministers did too much clerks’ work. Mr. LDMSDEN thought the Premier hasty in proposing the motion. He (Mr. Lumsden) should have been inclined to support the Bill. Progress was then reported. CONSOLIDATED STOCK BILL. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved the second reading of this Bill, and explained its provisions. Mr, MONTGOMERY complained of the inopportune time at which the Bill was introduced, and went on to quote what had been done by the Government of Victoria in reference to this matter, as showing that it was to be anticipated the advantages would not be so very great as was supposed. The value of stock would depend upon the opinion capitalists formed of our resources, and not merely upon any scheme for the inscription of stock. On the whole, he thought the Bill might very well stand over till next session. It was a largo transaction, and required much consideration. Mr. STEVENS earnestly supported the Bill, and said no barm could result from it. Mr, BEES did not see what good could come out of the measure, but saw very plainly the process would entail a great deal of expense. He suggested that the Bill should be held over till next session, when the pro-

hable consequences of it could be enquired' Into, and reported upon by a committee. - - The Hon. Major ATKINSON, in 'reply, pointed out differences between the circumstances of Victoria and'New Zealand. The second reading was. then agreed to. The Bill was passed through committee, reported, read a thiid time, and passed. The House adjourned at 12.15.