SIR G. GREY’S LETTER TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4860, 19 October 1876, Page 6

SIR G. GREY’S LETTER TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

The following '/copies of despatches: and telegrams relative 'to - and arising out of the-above was on October 12 presented tojbpth Houses of the General Assembly by command of his Excellency:—r,,-,- ,■ . > Copy of a Despatch from Governor the Most ?Hon. the Marquis of NORMAiIBY to the Eight Hon., the Earl df Carnarvon • ’* Government House, Wellington, I u .. .. .. June 21,1875. , Lord,—l have the honor to. enclose a letter which - has been addressed.to your Lordahip;by.Sir George Grey. . ’■ "2. This letter was - received by me about an hour before, fjh? sailing of the last mail, and after hqy, despatch-bag had been closed and sent to -the Post Office, and as it was one which could not be forwarded by me without comment, I was of course obliged to hold it over till this mail, ! 3. Sir George Grey is pleased to state to yojpr Lordship that “Np such opportunity, as la a free country is allowed to its inhabitants of expressing their .opinion upon the destruction of their Constitution, and the substitution of pnother fqr it, has yet, - in this case, been .Warded to'ihe inhabitants of New Zealand.” !L'am'perfectly aware that it is hard to conl 'Cfeorg9 Grey that any decision can not coincide with'his fm pre-conceived opinion, but undoubtedly 0 jjuesldon piyabolitioh, or non-abolition, was e distinct' issue raised at the last election, and there was no one who pressed the matter ! mbre strongly, 'or used his influence .more streuuausly, than Sir. George Grey; he having consented, to be put in nomination for the . Thames district after be had been returned for ' Auckland City West, with the view, by his own personal influence, of preventing the return of a second abolition candidate by that constituency. • ~ 4. Sir George Grey then goes on to compare the subordination of the Provincial Councils to, .the Colonial Legislatures to that which 'exijsts between tho "latter arid the Imperial •.’Pjhrliamerit,’ arid claims, therefore, that the !- Provincial Councils should be consulted before

thjsir privileges can be taken away by an Act of) the General Assembly. ■ ‘,',,'5. It appears to me, however, that he qptirely omits a circumstance which utterly ' destroys'the parallel' which he attempts to .‘'draw. The Parliament of England,Although ■ uUdoubtedly supreme, very wisely, while legis? ■ dating on colonial matters, refrains from enforcing the regulations which it has passed until;, confirmed by the Legislature of the colony affected ; but what Sir George Grey entirely overlooks is the fact, that the Imperial . parliament is elected by constituencies who are . .unconnected with the colony, and, probably to . a great extent, are ignorant of its feelings and requirements ; whereas the General Assembly .andthe Provincial - Councils are elected on l] -exactly the same franchise, the former representing the general interest of the whole ..colony, while the latter are elected to manage ! purely local matters, and are in their nature chiefly of a municipal character. . 6. That the proposed change in the Co'nsti- ' tution of the colony is a matter of general policy.ia a point which admits of no question, and to suppose that the legislation of the General Assembly on a matter of this importance should be subservient' to the will of - one or more of these local Councils appears to

me to be utterly untenable ; but admitting for the sake of argument that such a thing 1. were possible, how could it be carried out in i practice? There are in this colony nine provinces; supposing that five or possibly seven of 'these local Councils decided in favor rf abolition, and the remainder opposed it,' . •.. how is the question to • be decided ? -,. Are the majority of the Councils to carry the day, or is the population of each province to be taken , into consideration ; or is the provincial system' to be abolished in those provinces which agree to the proposal, and retained in those which oppose it? With all deference to Sir George Grey’s experience, it appears to me that he has taken up a ground which is entirely indefensible. 7. The General Assembly is elected by the people of this colony under a very liberal franchise, and without in any way wishing to prejudge the decision at which it may arrive on the subject of abolition, I believe that it is as well able to express and carry out the general requirements and wishes of the community as the Assembly of any other colony .in the .world ; . and at any rate, in my opinion, , it is the best and only constitutional mode by whieh the real feeling of the country can be obtained. 8. It seems to me, also, that the calculation into which he has gone, with regard, to the relative population of Auckland and Otago, and the rest of the colony, is equally unsound. Whether such a system, may be right or wrong, equal electoral districts'form no part of the British Constitution, as evinced by numerous constituencies in England, especially in London. By the Constitution of this colony, the Legislature has full power to alter or’increase the representation of the colony, but they have not. seen fit to adopt equal electoral districts ; and what, I would ask, would be said of any one in England who would venture to deny the power of Parliament to carry out such changes as it considered desirable, upon the ground that one portion of the country was not as fully represented according to population 1 as another. 9. Sir George Grey also omits to inform yeur Lordship that although possibly the majority of the members from the province of Auckland are opposed to the abolition of the provincial system, that feeling is' certainly not unanimous, 1 except perhaps in the city of Auckland and its immediate neighborhood; neither does he state that in May, last year, a resolution in favor of abolition was carried by a majority of five in the Provincial Council itself, and was only rescinded the next day by a majority of one at the direct instigation and dictation of Sir George Grey himself. _ ;I think,, therefore, he is hardly justified in claiming the whole of the province as adopting his views.' 10. That the Legislature has power under the authority of the Imperial Parliament to make the change proposed by the Abolition Act, is, I think, amply proved by the fact that your Lordship has informed me that, her Majesty will nbt be’ advised to disallow it. 11. As regards the concluding portion of his jetter, were it not that Sir George Grey most emphatically asserts his belief in the report to which he alludes, I should. certainly have treated it as a bad joke, and even now I hardly , know how to treat such a preposterous idea in a serieus manner. That Sir George Grey . should seriously inform your Lordship that he believes that there is the slightest foundation for the report which he says exists, that opposition to. the Ministry might involve the bombardment of the city of Auckland iby her Majesty’s ships, or that he should consider.it incumbent upon him to ask your Lordship to send a telegraphic message to me to dispel all apprehension of her Majesty’s forces. being used for such a purpose, is, I think, a sufficient proof of the spirit and tone in,which he has • entered into this controversy. 12. Sir George : Grey contents himself with indorsing the truth of the report, without stating the source from which he obtained it. I can only say that ! never saw it, and if I had I should have looked upon it as a pure invention, circulated for party purposes, and should have treated it with' the same contempt that I am convinced it will receive from every man, woman, and child in Auckland, except, I am bound to say, upon his own assor-’ tion, by Sir George Grey.

13. Were I as much'inclined to take alarm at absurd rumors and newspaper canards as he seems to he, I might indeed inform your Lordship that, on more than oiie occasion, Sir George Grey himself has been reported to have indulged in dark and mysterious hints at the possibility ,of armed resistance to the law being resorted to by those who are opposed to the abolition of , the provinces, and the’ same tone has been more frequently adopted by the Erening Star,- a paper. in Auckland which strongly supports his views ; but placing, as I do, entire 'reliance on the loyalty and good sense of the inhabitants of this coleny, I have hitherto' treated them as' empty threats. As, however, Sir George Grey has seen fit to make this formal complaint to'your Lordship, I now distinctly charge him With’Being himself the first to give currency to a report similar to the

one he has brought • under your Lordships notice, and in support of this accusation I enclose to. your. Lordship the copy of a letter which has been addressed ,by Mr. Dargaville, to my Private Secretary for my information; 14. Mr. Dargaville was at the time a mem-, her of the Provincil Council of Auckland, and the occurrence he narrates, occurred about a, year ago, before the meeting of ;the General Assembly,,and consequently before the Abolition Bill was before the public. The circumstance came to my knowledge soon after it took place. 15. The conversation narrated by : Mr. Dargaville is so identical with the language used in Sir George Grey’s letter to your Lordship, that there can be little doubt that it must have been the origin of the report of which he now complains ; ;it is therefore not surprising that he should state, “I am so entirely satisfied of the honor and good faith of the paper from which I quote, that I feel sure there substantial grounds for the statement it contains but, in my opinion, it would have been more ingenuous on,his part if he had stated at the same time that he himself had been the first, to give expression to such an idea. 16. Sir George Grey, when he. wrote this letter to your Lordship, must, from his long experience as a colonial Governor, have been perfectly aware of the fact that the Government of a colony have no control whatever over her Majesty’s forces, and that they could under no circumstances be brought into action,.except through the intervention of the Governor himself. To suppose, therefore, that it could be possible for her Majesty’s ships to be used for the purpose of cannonading the city of Auckland, he must, in the first place, have presumed that I had entirely lost my senses before I could be induced to make such a requisition to' the officer in command of her Majesty’s ships; and in the second, that that officer must have been equally mad to comply with it; 17. I beg to append a memorandum from imy Government, to whom I submitted Sir George Grey’s communication.—l have, &0., Normanby. . The Right. Hon. the Earl of Carnarvon, &o. J. M. Dargaville, Esq., to the Private Secretary. l Northern Club, Auckland, June 8, 1876. My dear Maling,—l was surprised yesterday, when reading in the Herald Sir George Grey’s letter to Lord Carnarvon, to find the following passages:— “I heard that in two parts of the colony reports had been circulated that her Majesty’s seamen and marines are to be used to put dowi by armed force all opposition to the Ministry, &c.,” and “that opposition to the Ministry might involve the city (Auckland) being cannonaded by the men-of-war in the harbor;” also, “I feel sure there are substantial grounds for the statement.” Now, I can assure you that this monstrously absurd canard, which every intelligent man in' the province treats with ridicule, was first given currency to by Sir George Grey himself some twelve months ago. ' During the last session of the Auckland Provincial Council, Mr. Reader Wood, the Provincial Secretary, intimated to the Council that it was the intentiori of the Superintendent to assume control of the police force within the province. Upon hearing that, I as member for Auckand City East, gave notice of a motion affirming the desirability of the police remaining as they were, i.e., under the control of the General Government.

This motion was subsequently carried by a large majority ; but one evening just before the debate upon it came on, I remember holding a long conversation on the subject with Sir George Grey, who endeavored to dissuade me from going on with it.' In the course of that conversation he expressed himself in, as nearly as I can recollect, the following words :—There may come a time when, in some conflict of authority between the Provincial and Central Governments, I should find myself seriously embarrassed by reason of the control of the police being out of my hands and upon my expressing astonishment at what his words implied, he went on to say, “Yes; and what’s more I can easily believe it within the range of possibility that we may yet see a British man-of-war in that river (the Waitemata), with her guns pointed towards the city, to coerce us into submission to some intolerable measure of the Government at Wellington.” I could not help laughing at the outburst, which, however, was uttered with apparent sincerity and much earnestness. That evening and next day I related what had occurred to severa gentlemen,'who all ridiculed Sir George Grey’s notion.

During the last session of the General Assembly a telegram front the Wellington correspondent of the Auckland Evening Star appeared in that paper, attempting to give further currency to the canard which Sir George Grey affects to have heard now for the first time.

I cannot find that any section of the Press so far has attempted to justify Grey’s conduct in this matter, and every supporter of his here with whem I have spoken oh the subject expressed regret that he should have magnified what at most could be only idle street gossip into a matter of sufficient importance to treat it as worthy of communication to the Imperial Government. I think it only my duty to write you this letter. You can show it to Lord Normanby if you think fit.—l have, &c. J. M. Dargaville. Captain Maling, Government House, Wellington. Memorandum for His Excellency. Wellington, 12th June, 1876. Ministers have considered the letter to Lord Carnarvon from Sir George Grey, dated June 5, which his Excellency has been asked to forward to the Secretary of State, and which his Excellency has referred to his advisers for any remarks they desire to make. ‘ 2. Sir George Grey more and. more gives way. to an irrepressible desire to write,long despatches, threatening legal proceedings and harping upon fancied grievances and baseless rumors. • 3. It is scarcely necessary to assure the Secretary of State that there is no ground whatever for the rumors, to which Sir, George Grey refers. ; ■ ! 4. Ministers hope his Excellency will express to. Lord Carnarvon their, regret at the annoyance to which he must feel himself subjected by haying to : take notice of these long and purposeless letters written to him by: a colonist of New Zealand.; The general feeling in the colony is certainly averse to giving to the Secretary; of State, needless trouble, or asking him to interfere in matters relating to the internal affairs of the colony. Julius Vogel. . Copy of a letter from Sir G. Grey to his Excellency the Governor, forwarding copy of telegram to the Eight Hon. the Secretary of State (already .laid, on the table of the House). ’ ’. ‘ , Memorandum for His Excellency, , Wellington, October 12, 1876. Eeferring to the telegrams addressed to the Eight Hon. the Secretary of State for the Colonies by the Superintendent of Auckland and the Superintendent of Otago—copies of , which.were forwarded by their Honors to his Excellency, and by his Excellency were transmitted for the information of the Government Ministers respectfully advise his Excellency to telegraph to the Secretary of State that in their opinion there is no reason to fear, upon the coming 'into operation of the Abolition of Provinces Act, 1875, any such consequences as'those predicted by the two Superintendents. The Counties ’Bill, intended to provide machinery for really local government, with which to replace provincial institutions,, has been, passed by the House of Eepresentatives by large majorities ;' and in the Legislative Council the Bill has been read the second time without a division. ' ' H. A. Atkinson. Copy of Despatch from Governor the Most • Hon. the Marquis of Normanby, to the. Eight Hon. the Earl of Carnarvon. j . Wellington, October 12, 1876.:, Superintendents of Auckland and Otago, have sent telegrams to your Lordship direct,

forwarding copies to me. Copies laid .by me before Parliament. Ministers advise no reason to fear the consequences predicted, in which I entirely concur. . Counties Bill to replace provinces passed Lower House by large majority. Second reading passed Council without division. ’

(Signed) : Normanby. Earl Carnarvon, Colonial Office, London,