PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4859, 18 October 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, : October' 17. : The Hon.' the Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock.- ‘ • NEW BILL. ':, ’ The Hon'. Dr. POLLEN moved for leave to ' introduce a Bill intituled “An Act to vest certain Lands in the; Little River District, in the Province of Canterbury, in her Majesty the Queen,, and to authorise the issue of Crown grants thereof to certain aboriginal natives of such province.”—Agreed to,, and Bill read a first time. PUBLIC WORKS BILL. , ■This Bill was read a third time. , ' debtors and creditors bill. The Hon,. Mr, HART moved;a series of amendments ,in sundry clauses,substituting “Official Trustee” for “Registrar.”—The Hon. Dr. Pollen opposed the alteration.—The Hon. Mr. Holmes supported the Bill as it stood, and the Hon. Colonel W hitmobe supported the alterations proposed, by,-,Mr. Hart. —Mr. Hart’s amendment was carried by 12 to 10. —The same -gentleman - then - moved to strike out clausa 15, which motion was carried. Some verbal -amendments and others in pursuance of the alterations already carried were moved by the Hoh. Mr, Hart. —The Hon. ‘Mr. Hart ' then moved the following new clause in pursuance of the amendments already made The Governor may from.' time to appoint some person- to ■ be the Official Trustee in each'district so proclaimed,-and the person so appointed shall' be subject to'the'Court in relation to any estate in respect of which he is or has beeni acting -as iOfficial’-Tfostee ; and for such purpose: shall be deemed to be an officer of the Court,- and he shalLbe entitled to retain out of the’ proceeds of: each estate administered by him a sum 1 equal to five per centum on all moneys- received by him on behalf of such estate.’-’—Tire Hon. Mr. Bonah moved a new clause, to follow clause 47 : “No appointment* of any trustee,.. made under .the. Debtors and Creditors Act, 1875. shall be deemed to be invalid by reason only of any irregularity or informality in any of the proceedings connected with such appointment.”— Both clauses were agreed to. ■ ; ; The Bill was then ’ reported with amendments. Third reading next Thursday. COUNTIES BILL., On the postponed clauses, the 1 Hon. Mr. Hall moved an ' amendment to insert ’ the words “ not being less than 200,000 acres in extent, and, containing not less than 100(1 inhabitants.”—The Hon. Mr. Robinson moved a further amendment to substitute “200 square miles” for “ 200,000 acres.” —A division was taken on Mr. Robinson’s amendment, which was lost by ■ H to10.—;On the question of inserting the words of ;Mr. Hall’s amendment, the Hon. Sir ; John, Richardson moved that “400 ” inhabitants should : be - substituted for “ 1000.”—Sir -John Richardson with- . drew his amendment; but it was moved again in similar terms by- the Hqh.'DhMKNZIES. —The Hon. Mr. HAUL suggeated the addition of the words “nor containing Hess--than 109 ratepayers’ to the amendment, which was adopted by Dr. Menzies, and on a division the amendment, with the addition, was carried by 19 against 4, The consent-of-one-half of ratepayers whs amended by inserting three-fifths. Clauses 115, 116, and 117 were struck out. Sub-sections 3, 4, and sof clause 130 were erased. Clause 135 was , amended :so as to meet the changes in the Bill owing to the excision of the loan clauses. ■ll j x

Progress was then reported; leayebeing given to sit again. On the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen, the schedules were referred- to the Waste Lands Committee, such" committee' to meet to-day, and report if possible. WASTE LAND" COMMITTEE.'

On the motion of the Hon. Colonel Brett, the name of the Hon. Mr. Acland was placed on the Waste Lands Committee, the name of the Hon.'Mr. Gray, who is absent, being removed. ' PALMERSTON (south) ATHBNASUM BILL. This Bill was read a- second time,'-and ordered to be committed’ next day. 'other "bills. The Dunedin Drillahed Reserve - Bill was--made an order of the’day for Thursday, ■The Auckland Provincial Library Bill was thrown out on the second reading by,,Xl to 3. The third reading of the Fraudulent Debtors Act Amendment Bill was made an: order of the day for Thursday, and the, second reading of the Riverton Harbor Board Land Bill was postponed until next day. ‘ / , BLUFF HARBOR BOARD BILL’.' The second, reading of this Bill was moved by .the Hon;: Dr. Meszies.- y■. TJ ; ■ The" Hon; i Colonel . WHITMORE said that at this period of the session it was quite impossible to give the Harbor Board Bills proper consideration fin his opinion it.was indecent that they should be asked to hurry such important measures througb, and lie had at one time thought of moving seriatim that - each Bill should be read a second time in six months. The Bills, however, were of two classes, one simply proposing; the formation of machinery for harbor management, but the other proposing endowments 'and borrowing powers. He was quite willing'" to assist the various districts iu obtaining a proper management for their harbors, but would not at the present time consent to deal with"endowmentS;Or borrowing • powers. In ' his. opinion .the" Government should bring -down t a general Harbor Board scheme next session, when the whole matter could be dealt with. He would except the Oamanx Harbor Board Bill from his remarks, which as a harbor of refuge was a work of colonial importance, but . be; wojild not have excepted even this Bill if an endowment of £IOO,OOO had not been previously granted. Their sympathies might be with those interested in these Bills, but still thatmust not interfere with their duty. Otago and Waitara asked for neither borrowing powers .nor endowment, but the Bill now before the House contained both of these objectionable features. He would only vote forjthe second reading on the understanding that the provisions as to endowment and borrowing powers should be struck out in commitee. „ The Hon. Colonel KENNY saidjie had nohostility against.'any particuTaFlocality ; butthe system of borrowing .proposed ‘was so objectionable, that he must oppose the Bill unless the clauses were withdrawn. ,

The Hon. j Mr. HOLMES supported Dr. Menzies. It had'been granted that it was necessary to give governing powers to the Harbor , Boards. He was not' in favor of granting borrowing powers ; ‘but' lie thought the endowment'should be given. • The Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL thought there was ample accommodation at the Bluff foe that portion of the colony- -He_ahould vote against the BillA 1 71 The Hon. Captain FRASER suggested the postponementfof the measure.until after the Camara Harbor Bill was ■ disposed of. The colony was going through a sanguineous transformation,and he was prepared to vote against alllborrowing powers. - .He. wouldnot make fish of oneißilltand<(flesh of..another. He hoped the horn member .would adopt his suggestion, ~i. , , • The Hon. Mr. HALL said that hon. mem. hers','should not throw out the Bill because It contained' berrowing powers.- * That was a,

- question for-committee, as was that of land ; endowment. ' In his’ opinion there was no better wajr pf utilising the land than by providing accommodation for exporting the produce of the land, and he was prepared to deal with all the Bills in thia spirit. ■ There ,-i , ,waa an ,objectionable feature tin-most : of the Bills, that pilotage fees and port dues formed portions of the revenues of the Harbor Boards. Hj they would , look , at the Estimates, they would see that the General Government had to make provision for pilot stations, &c. He would vote for the second reading. , ; The ,Hon. Mr. ROBINSON opposed the - Bill.:'; ■■ , i ■ The Hon. Mr. STOKES complained of the .epidemic of Harbor Board Bills. He should , ; . only vote for such of the Bills as related to districts where Boards were absolutely required, and then should oppose .the clauses as to endowments and borrowing powers. ; The Hon. Mr. PATERSON thought a number of the Bills might be shelved until ; next session. He would support the second

, reading. , : The Hon. Mr. BONAR was glad to see that the Council'had determined to deal with each Bill on its merits. The Hon. Dr. MENZIES said that he felt - it was -quite hopeless to urge 'upon, the Council to, consent to the borrowing powers, and he would withdraw the clauses. ■ ■■■■■ ' The Bill was then-read a second time. The second reading of the \Vaitara Harbor Board Bill was postponed, until to-day. ~ . The Council then (10.40 p.m.) adjourned. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. : Tuesday, October 17. ' ■ 1 The Speaker ’ took the chair at the usual hour. u ", LEAVE OF, ABSENCE. On the motion of Sir Robert Douglas, leave of absence was granteed to Mr. Tonks ' for the remainder of the session., Mr. SWANSON asked 1 the ’ Premier,—. ‘ Whether ■ any steps 'are being .taken to settle ... the. case ,of Mrs. Meurantand, if not, whether the Government • will consent to 1 authorise the Postmaster-General, on j his, return to Auckland, to,.inquire’ fullyrintO: the , i matter, with a view to a final settlement .with-, out further delay ?. , I ; : " The Hon. 'Major ATKINSON replied in the affirmative. ~ , ■ , la reply to Mr.BuiiXs, ~ The Hon. Mr.' RICHARDSpN said the 0 Government would haye i.no objection! to lay ... before the House a return showing the total cost of the Dunedin and Clutha raUway; also, the cost of the railway bridge at Balclntha. Mri’ SHIEEHAN, on.behalf of Mr. J. 0. rUßrown; ‘asked-if-’the Government, wouldlay !v» before thd Hbuse : a refrnrh 'bf the 1 cost iof cbn- , str.uction .to date, of the Tuapeka railway ; v also, the probable additional, amount required to complete the same ? ’ “ “ The reply, to thequestion was that information on the subject i had .been given to the House on two previous occasions. r,,--i a SHEEHAN ’asked the Government, — Whether they were taking, or intended, to take, active steps,with a view to opening up the Kaimai country, near Tauranga, for gold-, ■ mining? ■■■ ' The Hon. Major, ATKINSON said the. Go-.. verument were alive to the necessity of opening up thatcduntry, but,.thd.. difficulty of ‘''effectingthis desirable,object was'increased by ! ;'■ the eagerness of Europeans to get possession - ; of the‘district:' But. the.lGpyernment would

use every endeavor to open up the country as

soon as possible.• . -j. I Mr. SHKEHAN asked the; Premier,—

Whether any lands had been dealt with under ‘ r 'y the provisions of the; Resumption of Land for Mining Purposes Act, 1’873 and, if so, what ■a is the acreage and position of ", such lands ? The Hon. Major ATKINJ3ON replied that ’ his belief, was that nothing i of the kind had been done ;■ but he was' not possessed of.full f '. information on its subject, and .would let the hon; gentleman know on a,future occasion. . ,!■ -Mk-" PB'AKOE ■ asked: the Minister > for Public Whether; the Government *'('would give : effect-ito . the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee in the matter i of the petition of Peter'Stewart? ' ... '■ ’ The Hon. Mri, r BICHAKpSpN admitted that Mr. Stewart , was entitled to some consideration, but was not in a position to say to ' what "extent.' He 1 1 Should recommend Mr. • Stewart to apply.to theEngineer-in-Chief., . I - ■; / ■ -RABBIT NUISANCE BIEL. ' ’ The Amendments made by the Legislative 4 V Council in the above Bill were,agreed to. VALIDITY *OF ABOLITION ACT. j • c ’" jGKEy'i moved that this Sl/Hotwe do resolve itselfdnto a committee'of the 1 ’ ’’ "'whole to consider of An’ address--to his Excel-’ 1,0 ’Jehcyithe Governor" that- he be'reqnested to ,place;hp°n the supplementary .estimates a sum , ;.’i«of Alsooff,:for the purpose of defraying the cost sd r 6f-legMptpde'edings view of j (dptarmipingJ»iwhether,the,Abolition Act*. 1875,' rand its various provisions be vltra vires. •> ■J"HC , hontehded‘that the provinces l should be .‘■given-power, to-appoab to the Counts of the .country;/which they could-not do without tjle ' necessaty-funds"’ - - ' ! ■ ■' " ‘ ’ 1 The, Hbd. ll: Meier"; 'ATKINSON, took it : jfor : ‘grahted" tfiit. -,the, fr House, would rail ject- “thißw motion, i becaiise -ithe-- jSovem- ' ' -men; ' and 5 thh ! ” House were ; quite satisfied’ thit‘, the/pr&oeedinga , .which , had been 5 taken 'm reference ito.' the abolition of proUki vinces were' perfectly • legal;’.and it would therefore' be , absurd . to accept a' j JtwmSi. .of .which" were such as to stultify the action -which-tbe House-had already taken. It ’’ 'Vis’quite evident also that the Home Govern-' ment were satisfied of. the .validity* of the Act,' ~ (jj. they would never;have permitted, it to come into operation. " •. : ■' • >• ,’Vt. HOHOraNSOISr hoped ,tbe| House; ■ would jiot, reject the , motion,: and considered; that the qnestion should have been . introduced at,an earlier,period of the session."'The conduct'of the Mihisfey,throughout had not-been • 1 such as to inspire confidence,'the Premier him- ’ self bad caused tube-published a memorandum calculated to mislead the public.. . He was „ satisfied .that,' the . Atohtion ,;Act/,.was ultra vires, and took occasion to : remark that thfe ■■■’ House hail : oh r two 'former' occasions, exceeded Jte power, '.lie'hqh.' gentleman proceeded at . some length to argue, that the Abolition Act was not'worth .the paper it was printed ohj" ahd read many; Cxtrdcts' from . Parliamentary ' records, ' and some despatches, to prove that the ’Parliament'¥ad'acted contrary to lAw: The Government- Had nob had the courage to test the question openly, hut had-gajned their o bjeCt by issuing deceptive; memoranda, and had dragged the ' honor of his Excel- ’ lency the Governor into the dust. He V complained ' that the .power- which the Assembly actually did possess by the Constitu- ‘ ti on Act, viz., to make alterations in the boun- “ claries of , provinces froin time to. .time, was the result of secret plotting on the part of the central party, 1 headed bythe hon. member for ' Timatu, who had acted mere like a conspirator than a statesman. He denounced the Government sitting on those benches as a revoln..ionary committee ; in every way their conduct , had been most gross. , The secret of their ■ success was the possession of much audacity—that was all. He thought the Abolition Act " ’ should be ignored. 1 If, the Ministry opposed this motion, it would be another evidence of an evil, conscience, they knowing they dare’ not appealto the law courts. ■ 1 .. Mr. DONALD KEID said this question should be approached'with considerable gra- ' vity. There was a good deal of feeling thtoogni , out the country manifested in respect to it; in • .fact,so strong was the feeling, that in certain directions the people were considering whether ' they should not take steps to resist every effort on the part of the colonial Parliament to enforce the .canrying into effect of the Ahofi-. tion Act. He should vote for the motion, be-. ■‘cause ho believed an appeal to the layi'courts , would tend 1 to allay, this feeling. Of dissatisfaction.- In fact, he believed that abolition would he' • accepted if the Act Were proved in the Appeal Court of, New Zealand to . have been legally passed. The sum; was, not much considering ' the importance of the 1 object to which it was to be devoted. If it would bo the tneausgas he believed.lt, would he, of settling ; a‘ great’ —"difficulty*"the Government would do • well to > . accept tho motion.; ! i,- : ■ ■ , • Mr. REE 9 said that the question before the Hoilse was as to whether it

1 was within -the jurisdiction -of tho {House, , to pass the ■'Abolition Act.' A very large. ■ section ’ of- the people -of ' New..- Zealand, were antagonitio to it, and - desired that. i its validity should be tested. The very best , test of the sincerity of the Government! would , be found in their-supporting'the! proposal of thedion. member for the. I Thames; The)people had a right to be treated with the consideration ■ due ■to them- in justice, for -it'- 1 was absurd to suppose' that -’men possessed of reason and courage should: calmly submit to what theybelieved to be the infliction, upon ‘them of a great , wrong—a, gross! injustice. There was not a single instance in history when a Government had presumed upon-its-power to-heap in- : justice upon -a, people, where that Government had not come to grief. iThe Provincial Councils, as representing the people of- the provinces, should be allowed to test the question with the General Government, and thb'funds necessary to carry out that object‘should be provided out of the : revenue- ..contributed by the country. Ht was ' the ‘duty:‘of the corporate bodies to, defend ‘ themselves pgainat the attacks made upon them 1 for: thei purpose of utterly‘destroying them?: but‘the General Government had deprived them of the power to raise money to defray the cost of ‘testing the qnestionj-which in itself was a great injustice; but they would’be doing a still greater, injustice were they to oppose this motion. The proposition of the hon;'member for the Thames was the 1 only-means of calmly andquietly settling a question’ which had so far evoked such’a hostile'spirit between parties. The Hon'.' Mr. WHITAKER said so much had'been said regarding the validity iof the Abolition Act -that -it-was- impossiblej to say anything new; but he might be ‘excused for referring to -the speeches made during, -the ■ ■present debate.: He went on ’ to'say that Mr. Rees had contradicted hiinself, and was certainly mistaken as to the position of the Provincial Governments, because: he conic} see no obstacle to ‘ tbe> Superintendents of Otago and. Auckland going to the Supreme Court jif they r saw ’fit’; but Ihe -could not see that there was any reason ifi asking the Government to accept this motion; inasmuch as r they would (hereby bequestioning a subject: upon ; whiqh they in "reality * hadno ;, doubt, whatever, having J secured 1 , 1 ’the . best ; advice ‘obtainable as to the. legality Of the course; they had adopted. ‘To accept this proposition would be -. to 'create’a doubt where no doubt existed ; and -moreover, he did not Relieve that,a,ny. delay, in vhringing'- abolition intp' 5 * operation: , would-be acceptable tb-the House." {There- - fore he contended that the Government would be doing wrong/were,they,to accept the motion of the hbn. member for, the Thames. j Mr. SHEEHAN dwelt,,bittthe technical; view of the, question,, as to of the word, “any.jn,.the jConstitutipn Act, whether it '.iamnt > v^t“i^w : ic-;.waß given to s . abolish “all"; the provinces. . He contended that 'it was to give a, specific-power to deal; i with a particular case,,,and not to alter the whole Constitution. He thought there was no objection,, tp , the,; motion., ijpn, :.the score of financej‘because’ Otago, and Auckland were the, two provinces which mainly contested the validity of the: Act, and there could be no question of the need for the expenditure of the money for- the purpbse'named. The hbn. gentleman proceeded bn the lino of argument taken- up'-by-’ previous "speakers- on the Opposition side, namely, as to the illegality of the passing of theßiilpantl the neglect" of the Go--vemment in not-.seeking beforehand for advice : as .to whether’the Assembly had power, to pass that Act.’ 'IHe referred" to the promises made when the abolition resolutions were first ; brought’down, and how they had been 1 broken, , saying that ■' abolition was_ not _the -result of statesman-like deliberation. "’He thought that this/proposal .to enable the’ question to be properly tested should be accepted./’ The present Government, he contended}, would have been prepared to pitch abolition overboard iif i > it had.been" necessary to do so In order to;, secure a’majority of the House.,- But as it was the Government had lived ‘upon abolition for the past two years. Their power.was simply owing to their being identified - with, abolition, even while they had distinctly .shown themselves to be' incapable of grasping the large question implied in the, alteration, of the Constitution. Mr.. Sheehan proceeded, at great, length, and in conclusion expressed anj earnest' .hope,tha,t the House, would accept the motion ! before it,‘.adding that the people .need not necessarily obey a law laid down,-by {the Go-., vernihent, and' if the Government endeavored to enforce compliance , with.it, they would be responsible for the consequences that might ensue. If .the people were driven to.resistance, they would not be disloyal;. the essence of j loyalty was' obedience' to, the law, and I ,if, as they believed,'-the Abolition Act was ultra vires, the people were'upholding the Mr.; BOWEN said the motion was really a request’that the Government should allow the Itaxpayerslmoney, to_be..spent. in„ascertaining that .which had ,already been ascertained, viz., that the,. Xct ;l perfectly legalf'arid therefore it could not.be agreed to.

.v.’.Mrc DE /LAIITOUH 'took thefoppprtunity ‘ of denying statements : which had been made )to;tHe.effeot that MriMaoandfew'was Consulting: with; members of . the House as. to illegal action. That gentleman did not deserve such ■remarks" - aiid .he (MratDe'J Lautourj could assure the House that Mr. Macandrew would notbreafc the 1aw.‘.'...f.: . U--rV- j T .'’ A division ensued on the question that the House go into Committee of Supply..: Ayes, ;32 "“noe9y'i’!2o;-'"The~motionr”was“ therefore rejected. 1 ah 1.,,.. v; The House r then, wentvintol .Committee of jSupply, Mr;-Seymour taking the ehait on the motion of the Premier, owing to Mr. O’Korke being.unwelh; . .• Oo f". j ,j, ,, ~ i Native Department, £34,985; —Mr. SHJSEHANainehded his amendment- by rnaking his. pro-i posed reduction ' £SOOO instead " of-'£10,000.,' -Discussing the merits of Sir D. Mdjiean,Yhe ; said that gentleman had ff emoralised the natives; by rumV'and 1 bought'their lands while they, were . intoxicated. f _He ,then ..went; into a History of 1 a^number |of| land'-tranjsattions., —'the Hon. Mr. Bowen defended Sir i Donald 'McLean'; and Nahe and Tawitti said they - knew nothing wrong of the /Native rMinister. ’ —Hr. Hunter also warmly Native! Minister.—A division on the reductionj of the vote for the department took' noes, 38i-^Mf.-Rees.then moved that that; the vote be reduced by the" sum of £400,j having the JVahy.M&ori newspaper.—On a division the proposition was carried by 29 to-21. - i Considerable |discussion took place" on;,the vote for Militia and "Volunteers. On the item for Wellington “Officer commanding,also storeykeeper, 1 ”i amounting, t0,;£354 155., a division; was taken, when the item,was retained by 21i to 17. Ultimately the total vote for the colony was,-on, the suggestion of the Premier, reducedby £IOOO. ;,;Eurther, a reduction of £2o;.was carried on the . .voices, to be taken tJf an indication that the item, £3OO, for the officer,, commanding tho cavalry ;in the Waikato, should be dispensed with.—The items for j Armed Constabulary and for Contingent Defence and liabilities were passed pn the yeices.—rThe item for, Government Dpmains, ;was also passed ,and progrjesH was reported. j /The Ifoiise adjourned at 3.35 a.m. i