PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4858, 17 October 1876, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

legislative council. Monday, October 16.. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m.

QUESTION. ... The Hon. Mr. NGATATA asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary,—To what extent, if at all* the Ohinemuri ■ Goldfield Agricultural Leases Validation Act will affect lands owned by natives (within the boundaries of the OhinemuriGoldfields) who have not signed the deed of cession to the Government, part of which land has passed the Native Land Court, and for. which the natives hold certificates of title, and for other portions thereof applications for hearing have been sent in? The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said he had caused inquiry to be made, and all necessary protection would be afforded to the natives. OTAGO RAILWAYS. , The Hon. Mr. NURSE moved,—That this Council is of opinion that the Government should cause inquiry to be made into the particulars connected with the contracts and partial construction of the railways in the ■western district of the province of Otago—namely, from Riverton to Otautau, Wallace Town, and Orepuki ; and that the report of the result of such inquiry be laid on the table at as early a date as possible. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said of course the inquiry could not take place at present. The motion was agreed to. PUBLIC WORKS BILL. A motion was on the Order Paper on the part of Dr. Menzies, to move, on the third reading of this Bill, the addition of a new clause. The speech of the hen. doctor was listened to with impatience by some members of the Council, and forcible and nncourteous words passed between him and the Hon. Mr. Robinson.— The third reading of the Bill was postponed till the evening sitting. Subsequently the Hon. Dr. Menzies said that his sharp words were brought out by interruptions to which he had been subjected, and did not arise from any desire on his part to offend Mr. Robinson., ; . NEW BILLS. Several Bills were received from the Lower Chamber, (amongst them a crowd of Harbor Board Bills), read a first time, and the second readings variously fixed. ’ ANIMALS IMPORTATION PROHIBITION BILL. This measure was read a second time without opposition, committed, and reported. COUNTIES BILL. ,In committee on this Bill the Hon. Mr. Hall moved that clauses 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, and 59 bo struck out, and the following clauses substituted —“ The council shall, at its first meeting, and’ thereafter at the annual meeting to be held on the fourth Wednesday in November in every succeeding year, elect one of its members to be chairman of the county.—The chairman shall come into office on his election, and shall hold office until the election of his successor.—The chairman may resign his office by writing under his band, delivered to the council or the clerk of the council, and in such case, or in case of his death, incapacity, or ouster from office, his office shall become vacant, and the clerk shall forthwith call a meeting of the council, who shall elect a chairman in his stead.” Some discussion ensued,- during which the Hon. Mr. Stokes stated that much as he wished to see the Bill passed he would rather it was thrown out than'that the chairmen, of the ■ county. - councils should be elected to Parliament. He considered these chairmen should virtuie officii be ' ineligible for seats in Parliament.—The Hon. Mr. Bonar spoke warmly in-favor of the chairmen being elected by the body of the ratepayers, and not by the councils.—Captain Campbell, Colonel Whitmore, and Captain Eraser followed (the latter saying that in every instance the people had elected the best men for Superintendent).—The Hon. Dr. Menzies would support the Bill as it stood.— The Hon. Mr. Robinson opposed the election of chairmen by the people. He would vote in favor of the motion of Mr. HalL—The Hon. Mr. Holmes was in favor of election of chairmen by the councils.; He would place it on record that the councillors should not be paid, and instanced a late case where a council had voted itself two guineas a day.—The Hon. Mr. Johnston would not vote, for chairmen being elected from outside the councils. On a division the striking out of the clauses was agreed to by 15 to 11.—The first of the new clauses was agreed to. , • - At the evening sitting the Bill was further considered—The Hon. Mr. Stokes proposed; an amendment in clause 60, to disqualify county chairmen from being called to the Upper ■ House or sitting in the House of Representatives, and said that the pressure which had been put on the Government by Superintendents had been most objectionable ; and if the chairmen were to have seats in the Assembly, this evil would be considerably increased.—After some remarks from the Hons. Captain Eraser, Mr. Holmes, Mr, Bonar, and Colonel Whitmore,' the Hon. Dr. Pollen said that he was not afraid that any of the log-rolling which had been suggested would take place if county chairmen were elected to the House. He would oppose the amendment, because he thought it would deprive the county councils of the choice of the best men as chairmen.—Sir John Richardson opposed the amendment, stating that he had been chairman of two road boards, and it had not interfered with his Parliamentary duties. He thought they ought not to disfranchise so large a body as would be the case if the amendment was carried.—The Hon. Mr. TT .r r, supported the amendment, which was carried on a division by 19 to 9. Clauses 115, 116, and 117, dealing with special rates, and 130 and 135 were postponed. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE moved that clauses 142 to 155, dealing with loans generally, be excised from the Bill. This would leave the counties the power only of anticipating their income by one year, which in his opinion was quite sufficient. — The Hon. Dr, Pollen opposed the motion, stating that the proposal really was to take away from the people the right of taxing themselves for useful and reproductive works. The Hon. Capt. Campbell, the Hon. Mr. Holmes, and the Hon. Colonel Kenny supported the motion.—The Hon. Mr. Hall pointed out that there were two classes of borrowing sanctioned by the Bill, viz., with the consent and without the consent of the ratepayers. The Council had adopted a principle with regard to corporations sanctioning loans, with the consent of. the ratepayers, and they, ought to be consistent.—The Hon, Mr. Robinson supported the motion, and the Hon; Mr. Bonar took the same view as the Hon. Mr. Hall. The Hon. Dr. Pollen hoped that the Council would sanction the special loans. —Clauses 142 to 145 were excised on the ; voices.

Clause 146 went to a division, to test the question as to special loans. This clause and all the special loans clauses were excised by 15 to 11. Clauses 156 to 161 were excised. Clause 162, dealing with overdrafts, was amended so that the amount of overdraft should hot exceed-one year's revenue, exclusive of special or separate rates and Government grants.; . Clauses 163 and .164 and 105 to 178, inclusive, dealing with, the repayment of loans, were struck out. All the other clauses were agreed to with slight amendments, "when progress was reported, leave being given to sit • again. ■ •

animals importation prohibition bill. This Bill was read a third time, and passed. The third reading of the Public Works Bill was postponed until next day. The Council adjourned at 10.35. p.m.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, October 16. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. , . petitions and notices. , A petition was presented by Mr. Sheehan in relation to native matters, and several notices of motions and questions were given. Sir GEORCE GREY gave notice that he would move that it was a breach of privilege for the Government to prefer .charges against any member of the House, without conveying to the House the nature of the charges made, and giving such member an opportunity of replying thereto. • Sir GEORGE GREY also gave notice of his intention on a future occasion,; on the House going into Committee to move that the House resolve itself into a committee for the purpose of considering an address to his Excellency the Governor, requesting that a sum of £SOOO be placed on the supplementary estimates, to defray the cost of proceedings to be taken with the object of determining whether the Abolition Act 'was ultra vires, such sum to be charged as a provincial liability of Auckland and Otago.’ ministerial residences. Mr. J. C. BROWN asked the Premier,—lf the Government are willing to sell the Ministerial residences ; and if not, if he will explain to ! the House why they do not consider' it' advisable so to dispose of them? The Hon. Major ATKINSON answered in the negative, explaining that it was the opinion of the Government that - these residences supplied a necessary want. Sir GEORGE GREYgave notice that on the proposal to go into Committee of- Supply that day he would move that the Ministerial residences be disposed ef by sale. Mr. LARNACH asked the Government, —Whether they will lay before, this House a return showing—l. The name of each officer (if any) in the Civil Service who is allowed private practice outside the duties of his office?, 2. The amount of salary any officer allowed private practice is receiving from the Government? 3. The real or estimated value of any private practice to any officer per annum during the last three years? The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that a return had already been placed on the table which would probably give the information required—that return having been furnished in response to a motion by Mr; Murray. LUNATICS—A QUESTION. In reply to Sir George Grey, ‘ , The Hon. Major ATKINSON stated that the provision made for Auckland lunatics had been made' in accordance with the estimates of that Provincial Government, but that further provision would be made if found necessary. In answer to questions respecting the Auckland gaol and public schools, an answer to the same effect was made by the Hon. Major Atkinson. THE LOAN AGENTS. Mr. MURRAY moved, in accordance with, notice given on a former occasion,—That, as the colony should know on what footing it stands with regard to any loss that might arise through its Agent-General or Loan Agents, who, without securities of any kind, will: be constantly in a position of large liability to this colony in respect to the custody of money and securities, and as the audit of the accounts is of an insufficient nature, this House is of opinion that, without implying anything against the honor of the Agent-General or any other gentleman who may be associated , with him as Loan Agent, the Government is not justified in continuing to place such responsibility in the hands of any two gentlemen without having very substantial securities. The Hon. Major ATKINSON hoped the House would not agree to the motion, which simply meant a very much larger expenditure without any commensurate good being derived. They had the experience of a large number of years to show that no harm could accrue from the present system. As a matter of fact, the Loan Agents had no power of dealing with the funds, nor had they any control over the debentures. THE ESTIMATES. ' ■ .1 The House then went into Committee of Supply, to consider the Estimates. Postal Department.—Some discusion arose on the subject of the ocean and interprovincial steam services, Mr. Sheehan remarking that in Auckland at least the latter had'done much towards opening up the north country", more, in fact,. than ’ anything else, and hoped the subsidies for'these steamers would, be continued.—The Hon. Mr. 'Whitaker staged that the Government did not regard the interprovincial services mentioned as necessary.—Mr. Reid was of a contrary opinion, as also was Mr. Babpe, who dilated on, the benefit of the steam service on the West Coast of the Middle Island.—Mr. Hunter thought caution should be exercised in striking off the subsidies for these steam services, which had done much towards developing the country. —Mr. Whitaker moved that the item for interprovincial services, £1750, be' reduced; by £250. If which were carried he should understand that the opinion of the House was that the services should be discontinued at .the conclusion of the financial year.—The amendment was - carried.—The Hon. Mr. Whitaker then proposed that the item .of £4OOO for steam service, West Coast of Middle Island, bejreduced by £100; and if that were carried; he should .take it as.'an intimation by the committee that the whole of the subsidy should be discontinued. ‘ Mr.' Donald Reid objected to the style of reasoning disclosed in the last motion. He was of opinion that the item referred to might be reduced £IOO, or perhaps £SOO, but he should ,be sorry to say that the service should be done away. Under these circumstances he thought the PostmasterGeneral was putting members of that House in an unfair position.—The Hon. Mr. Whitaker explained that the whole of the vote would be absorbed by the service up to the end, of the present year, and he could see ho other mode of arriving at the opinion of the committee as to whether or not the service should be discontinued as soon as possible.—A long discussion ensued, in which several Southern members pointed out the advantage of the service to settlers. —The Hon. Mr. Whitaker said, as there would naturally be a long discussion on all the items for these services, he would ask the House to accept the assurance on the part of the Government that they would during the recess make every effort to effect reductions in these services, not specifying any, and then the matter would come under the consideration of Parliament next session.—This was agreed to, and the amendment was withdrawn.—The sum for the Postal department, £142,947, was then passed, with the reduction of £250 on the item for interprovincial services.

Telegraph.—The estimate for this, department, £79,477, was passed; also £SOOO subsidy payable to Eastern Extension, Australasia, and China Telegraph Company for Australian cable. ■ • ■

A discussion took place on the vote of £3OO for Wellington Botanical Gardens.—Mr. Larnach moved that it be struck out. —Mr. 80lLESTON hoped it would not, for the sake of the health of hon. members, as it was the only place to go to get away.' from the stinks of the city. He hoped in, future provision would be made for all gardens.—The Hon. Major Atkinson suggested that the vote should be allowed this year, promising ; that the question of gardens generally should be taken into ; consideration.—Mr, Swanson, said he had visited; the gardens five years ago, and they seemed no better now than they were then. The £ISOO or £IBOO which had been spent;had been wasted.—Mr. Burns considered the hon. member for Newton had gone too far. The fact was the gardens were exceedingly well looked after, and did ‘ those engaged in i the work infinite cledit,—Mr. Montgomery opposed and Mr, Fyke supported theyote.—Mr. HdNter said Mr. Mantoll, Dr. Hector, and other., .gentlemen had taken great pains with ~ the ; gardens, and he was quite sure that they would bo . able to give a good account of their stewardship. —Several other; members urged that all gardens should be supported by the Government.

—Mr. Ormond . thoughtthe gardens should be supported by the people of Wellinglington; but at the same time it must be remembered that the gardens I 'had been placed under the management of a board of governors, among whom were the hen; member for Avon and the' hon. member for Timaru. - 'He believed the people of Wellington were quite prepared to support the gardens, provided they were handed over to them. —Mr. Brandon regretted there was so much jealousy of Wellington, and went on to explain that they had been supported by’ the people until the Government asked for the land and it was handed over. —Mr. Rolleston said the gardens were very necessary in connection with the Colonial Museum, and sincerely hoped that for the sake of the small sum it would not '--3 struck out.— Mr. Rees spoke of the Auckland gardens, and said the Wellington gardens could not he, compared with the Auckland gardens. The latter had a menagerie. (Mr. Ptke : And one of the beasts", has, escaped,) (Alaugh.)—The Hon. Major Atkinson pointed out that the gardens had been taken possession of under a special Act, and therefore that they, were in a peculiar position. He hoped the House would agree to the vote, and he would see that before next year they .were handed pvjer to a local body.; Under any circumstances it would take some time to arrange for new control, and.it .would throw, matters into confusion to stop the vote this year.—A division ensued on the question that the item be struck out. Ayes, 30; noes, 26. The vote was therefore disallowed.!

Maintenance of road between Hokitika and Malvern, £3OOO.—A long discussion took place on this item, it being objected toon the ground that, like other roads, it should be maintained’ by the local authorities; and the Westland and Canterbury members urging that, owing' to its peculiar character, and the peculiar circumstances under which it had been constructed, it was essentially a colonial work, and should be kept in repair at the expense; of ‘the*colony.— I The item was struck but'by 31 to 28. . ;

New Zealand Institute, £SOO.—A division called for by Mr. Burns resulted as follows : —Ayes, 38 ; noes, 20. Item carried. On the estimates for the Native department coming up, Mr. Sheehan said that it was customary for some explanation to he given by the Minister at the • head of the department, and as that gentleman was ill, ; he hoped that the Minister in charge of the Estimates would give some explanation.—-After some remarks from Mr. Burns, Mr. Sheehan entered into a lengthened criticism of the Native • department, and moved! that the , expenses of the department,’ set down at £34,985, bo. reduced ; by £IO,OOO. —'The Hon. Major Atkinson defended the conduct of the Native department, and said, it was 'veryi well now for hen; members ( to get up and talk; of the Native Minister having done nothing. The fact was that during the < last five years the Native Minister had done his work efficiently. Peace had been maintained, and native schools established all over the colony for the. education of the natives, and as far as possible the assimilation of the two races. ‘A great’ deal had been done, a great deal remained tq be done, and any attempts to reduce expenditure must be of a gradual character. . The expenses of the department had been reduced year after year till it was now under: £35,000;. but ft sudden reduction of £IO,OOO would be very dangerous, and members would regret their . votes if they agreed to it. <

After a lengthened discussion progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again next day. The House adjourned at 2.50 a,ra.