PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4830, 14 September 1876, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, September 13. . The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. • On the Hon. Dr. POLLEN rising to make his statement the attention of the Speaker was called to the fact that an insufficient number of members was present to constitute a House. This defect being remedied, the Hon Dr. Pollen said that he rose in fulfilment of the promise he had made at the afternoon Bitting. The Governor had accepted the resignations of the Ministry, and had been pleased to make the appointments mentioned in a iped&L Gazette issued that evening He then read the appointments made, which appear at length in our report of the proceedings of the House of Representatives. He then gaid that the number of the Ministry had been reduced to seven, and he believed that now they were in a proper constitutional position and could proceed with the business of the Council. MESSAGE, ETC. The SPEAKER then read a message from the Governor, notifying that the Hon. John Hall had resigned his seat in the Council. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL gave notice of his intention to move for leave of absence. ' '! ■, THE MINISTRY. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said that he had noticed one important omission in the statement of the Hon. the Colonial Secretary, viz., that nothing was said as to the Ministerial policy He presumed that they took their seats as a new Ministry, and were unembarrassed by the pledges or ties of the late Government. It was a cause for congratulation that they were in this happy position, but he would like to know what was to be the fate of the two gentlemen who had retired from the Government. The Hon. Mr. Hall had been promised a seat in the Ministry, and he would like to know if this promise was ultimately to be performed. He and many other hon. members thought that Mr. Hall's accession to office would be a cause of strength to the Ministry, but he objected to seats in the Government being held as it were on commission. It was a bad principle, and Messrs. Hall and Ormond should not act as acolytes to the Ministry, to receive full orders at the -end of the session. Anyone to whom such a promise was made at once ceased to be a free agent, and was in a similar position to a man who was bound over by law to keep the peace. Some time ajro there had been a report that a Minister of Mines was to be appointed, and of some thirteen gentlemen every one had considered ;himself predestined to fill the office. They had each labored under this idea throughout a whole session, and then found it to be an ignis fatuus. He would like to see an assurance given that there was no promise expressed or implied of the nature referred to to the members who had retired from the Ministry. He for one regretted what had taken place, but thought it would teach them a lesson which augured well for the future. To put himself iu order_ he would move the adjournment of the Council. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said that in his opinion the attractions of office would not have such a corrupting effect as was imagined by the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse. Sufficient for the day was the evil thereof, and he hoped they would accept the situation, and without so much discussion of great constitutional questions proceed to work, [The light which had been very bad all through the sitting became worse, and a general conversation ensued on the subject, the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse remarking that the new Ministry had come in under a cloud.] HEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY ACT ' AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was introduced by the Hon. Mr. Stokes, and read a first time, the second reading being made au order of the day for Friday. NATIVE GRANTEES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

This Bill was introduced by the Hon. Mr. G. E. Johnson, and read a first time, the second reading being 1 made an order of the day for Friday. MOTIONS. The Hon. Mr. "WATERHOTJSE moved,— That the provisions of the Disqualification Act, 1874, as amended by the Civil List 1863. Amendment Act, 1873, having been violated by the Hon. J. Hall, his seat as member of thi3 Council be declared vacant ; —and said that after the message received from the Governor it might appear that there was no cause for proceeding with his motion, but it was impossible for a man to resign a seat already vacant, and he thought the proper constitutional course to adopt was that which would be effected if the motion were carried. The Hon. the SPEAKER then said that a question had suggested itself to him as to whether it would be competent for the Council to deal with the matter, the Governor having gent a message to the effect that the seat was vacant.

The'Hon. Mr. WATERHOTJSE then proceeded, and said that the Council was the guardian of its own privileges. The Hon. Mr. Hall's presence in the Council or his resignanation were not necessary, as the Disqualification, Act was quite clear on the subject, and the seat was vacant by operation of law. The Hon. the SPEAKER expressed an opinion as to the desirability of adjourning the debate. , The Hon. Mr. STOKES then moved that the debate be adjourned. The Hon. Dr. MENZIES spoke against the adjournment, and said that it would be better to shelve the motion at.once. , If they proceeded they would, in the words of an old poet, " Thrice rout all the foes, thrice slay all the slain." The Council could do nothing more than express an opinion, and could not act judicially in the matter at all. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN supported the adjournment, that hon. members might take a little time to consider the course which it would be best to adopt. The. motion for the adjournment was carried on the voices. •

The Hon. Mr. PATERSON moved for leave to lay on the table of the Council a statement by the Council of the city of Dunedin with regard to the Wharves and Quays Reserve, and said that he had already presented a petition on the subject. He would like to lay the statement on the table, that hon. members might make themselves acquainted with the subject. . The motion was earned on the voices. . The Hon. Dr. MENZIES, in the absence of the Hon. Mr. Nurse, moved that the motion Standing in the tetter's name—for leave to lay on the table reports on the roads and works department in the province of Otago, including construction of branch railways ; and that the report on the branch railways by Messrs. Bewa and Dennison be printed—be discharged from the Order Paper, and made an order of the day for Friday. # ■ The motion was carried on the voices. The light continued to be so bad that the Council adjourned at eight o'clock, on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wednesday, September 13. The House met at 2.30, and after a short statement had been made by the Hon. Major Atkinson as to the position of the Ministry, adjourned till 7.30. At 7.30 the House resumed. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. The Hon Major ATKINSON said he had since the House last met formed a new Government, and the members of it had been sworn in, he also having again taken the oath as Executive Councillor. The Ministry was now constituted as follows : himself, Premier, holding the offices of Treasurer, Minister of Immigration, and Secretary for Lands ; Dr. Pollen, Colonial Secretary ; Mr. Richardson, Minister of Public Works ; Mr George McLean, Commissioner of Customs ; Sir D. McLean, Native Minister; Mr. Bowen, Minister of Justice and Commissioner of Stamp Duties. As the Disqualification Committee had reported that there were doubts as to the appointment of a political Attorney-General, and it was desirable to remove Buch doubts, Mr. Whitaker would for the present hold the portfolio of PostmasterGeneral and Commissioner of Telegraphs.

Sir GEORGE GREY rose to a question pf privilege. He apprehended that the mere divesting themselves of one oath and taking another would not make the hon. gentlemen members of the House. The Hon, Major ATKINSON was anxious that the Speaker should give his ruling on that point. Ministers claimed to be members of the House. * The SPEAKER said it was not part of his duty to give a ruling on the .subject. : NEW BULL. By leave, a Bill was. introduced by Mr. Stoot to make provision for-leasing certain reserves at Port Molyneaux. CIVIL LIST ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that this order of the day be discharged, arid the Bill allowed to be withdrawn. ' ! Sir GEORGE GREY rose to a point of order, and inquired whether a Bill brought I down by message, as this had been, could be disposed of in such a manner. ' i The SPEAKER saw nothing irregular in the motion. ! Motion agreed to and Bill discharged. UNOPPOSED ORDERS OP THE DAY. The Thames Domestic Water Supply BUI, Roxburgh Recreation Reserve Bill, and the Moa Flat School Reserve Bill were read, a second time. The Otepopo Athenaeum Reserve Bill, Masterton and Grey town Land Management Bill, and Lawrence Recreation Reserve Bill were pissed. LAW PRACTITIONERS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. WHITAKER opposed the Bill, because he considered the receipt given by Mr.; Smithies covered the whole claim he had ever had, to say nothing of the circuuistances of the' case which would not bear being talked about.: He moved that the Bill be read that day six months. Mr. S WANSON urged that the receipt only covered the damage done to Mr. Smithies in the past, a claim he would have had if a.Bjll had been passed enabling him to apply again. He had not sold away his right to practise, but had accepted a certain sum for the damage he had sustained by the operation of an improper law. Mr. MACANDREW regarded the Act which had been passed some years ago affecting Mr. Smythies as a disgrace to the Statute Book, and hoped the House would pay some regard to the reports of the Public Petitions Committees of both Houses, which bodies had reported favorably to Mr. Smythies. Mr. T. KELLY supported the Bill. Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS said the legal profession was an honorable profession, and people trusted a lawyer in practice without inquiring into his antecedents. If this Bill were passed the public might be taken in. Mr. DE LAUTOUR pointed out that the Bill would not admit Mr. Smythies to practise ; it merely gave him power to apply to the Supreme Court, the Judges of which would see whether he was a fit person to be admitted. The great object of Mr. Smythies was to redeem his character. He had spent a large amount of money in visiting his native land to collect evidence to prove that he was not guilty of the charges made against him, and now he wished to make use of the evidence. He hoped justice would be denied to no man.

The Hon. G. McLEAN said ample justice had been done -Mr. Smythies, and when he was previously before the House it was understood that the sum granted should at once and for ever dispose of the case. Mr. J. E. BRO WN said that was not his recollection of the matter.

Mr. REES thought Borne deference should be paid to the decision of the Public Petitions Committee. That committee hadconsidered the matter and had taken evidence, and upon that evidence had brought up a report recommending that this Act should be passed. The hon. member reviewed the whole circumstances of the case, and said the moral turpitude of the crime of which Mr. Smythies had been technically convicted was such that the presiding Judges declined to sentence him, and would never have sentenced him if he had not foolishly demanded the judgment of the Court before leaving England for the colony of New Zealand. As to the receipt, he contended that it was to be regarded, not as an acknowledgment of compensation for loss of his profession, but for IdSs of time in practising his profession. The Judges of the Court were quite capable of guarding the precincts of the court, and the matter should be left to them. It was a man's birthright to go into the courts of his country. Mr. MURRAY and Mr. TOLE supported the Bill.

Sir GEORGE GREY said Ministers had, come to their masters and asked for con-, donation for breaking the law, but took their suppliants by the throat and declined to forgive them. He instanced several cases in which persons after living a life of disgrace had eventually cleared their characters. He hoped the Bill would pass. Mr. ROLLESTON said he could not see any analogy between the case of the Government and the case of Mr. Smithies, and he must deprecate mixing up political questions with a matter of this kind. He referred: to the compensation of £IOOO as being a very unworthy offer, but he thought on the meritß of the case Mr. Smithies had no right to be admitted. He would not have gone into these matters had not the hon. member for Auckland City East raised the question of merit, and the hon. member for Waikato had done well in not opening up the question. He quoted the opinions of the Judges and of Mr. Fox as to the moral position of Mr. Smithies, and said he hoped the Government would 'be supported in their action on this occasion, as it was very clear it would not he to the interests of justice that the Act Bhould be P Mr. BURNS defended the Act of 1866 as right and proper, and said he considered the House had made a mistake in 1871; but if this Act were passed a still greater mistake would be made. He should support the Government. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said Mr. Smithies had practised in Dunedin once, and there was not an honest man in Dunedin who would support his re-admission to the Bar. Mr. BISLOP quoted the resolution passed in 1871, to show that there was at that time no intention of debarring Mr. Smithies from again applying. ; A division then took place on the question that the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question. The ayes were 30, the noes 29. The Bill was therefore read a second time. It was ordered to be committed next day. MAOBI XEPRESENTATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr. TAIAROA moved the second reading of this Bill, which is to provide for an increase of Maori representatives'from five to seven—five for the North and two for the South. He based the claim on the large Native population. The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER did not oppose the second reading of the Bill, but hoped it would get no further than committee. The Maori Representation Act would expire next year, and the Government in the meantime proposed to consider the whole question of representation. Captain RUSSELL did not see the use of going into committee on the Bill if it were to be rejected on the third reading. He quite disapproved of the principle of the Bill. In 1867 it was desirable to give Maoris special representation, but it svas not desirable now, especially seeing that within five years, as he believed, the Maoris would be able to control nearly the whole of the elections for country districts of the North' Island. He was quite willing to see the law assimilated as regarded the Europeans and Natives, but was opposed to special representation. By the increase Maoris would be represented who did not contribute to the taxation of the country.

Mr. ANDREW quite agreed with what had been said by the two preceding speakers, and moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Mr. HAMLIN though the mover of the Bill should have been entitled to ask for fourteen Maori seats, so as to make the position of Maori and European somewhat equal as regarded representation. The Maori special representation had worked well in the past, and would work well in the future. If the Waikato district were given representation, he believed Tawhiao himself would soon appear in the House, and

many of the present difficulties would be cleared away. . , . . ..,,-.- Mr. ROLLESTON thought .the Maori; re-' presentation had worked, pretty well "on the whole; but if the Maori representation came to influence materially;. the legislation of the country there would be jealousy. He should not like to see the namberqf membersincreased, and would prefer the establishment of a Maori Council. In the interests of the Maoris he should oppose this sham Bill. Captain MORRIS supported the Bill, because he thought the Maoris were inadequately represented, while increased;; representation would be productive of good. , He quite concurred with Mr. Hamlin as to representation for tho Waikatp leading to a better state of things in regard to the King country. Mr. NAHE said no four members could care for the whole of the Maori people, arid more representatives were necessary. < Mr. STOUT supported the second reading of the Bill, because as the Act of 186? woujd expire next year, Maoris would, unless some, parts of this Bill were adopted,-be dependent upon the- Ministry for ;their seats next; year. Maoris were amenable to the same influences as Europeans. The result would be unfortunate. He thought representation should be given to them because they asked for it, if for, no other reason. People who valued politioal privileges were the proper persons to be entrusted, with these privileges. ;He respected the Maoris, because they did not.come to the House pleading, for ; a vote 'for a road and a Treasury bill for a bridge, but came first iof all to ask for the rights of manhood. A question of taxation had been raised, but he. considered the Maoris'had paid more taxes than the Europeans. Look at the large tracts of land which had been handed over to the State at a nominal cost; and then they con-, sumed dutiable articles just as Europeans did. The basis of representation in New Zealand originally: had been. that of population, and it was because that principle had not been carried out that there had been- so much wrangling and so much heartburning in the country lately. By reason of population the Maoris had a right to increased representation, and it was only by holding out to them these political privileges, and by inducting them into the system of parliamentary government, that the race was to be preserved, and that the difficulties of the past were to.be avoided. It was to the interest of the colony that the race should be preserved, and he trusted that the Bill would be passed. ■;. Mr, WAKEFIELD opposed the second reading. He would prefer to,Bee all special representation abolished, and the Maori race placed on the same footing as Europeans. He agreed with the hon. member for Dunedin that the Maoris,: contributing as they did to the general revenue of the colony, should have a. fair representation in the: House. . But at present they had all the advantages and privileges ef Europeans, and as much chance of voting at elections. He believed the reason the natives did not avail themselves more fully of the ordinary means of representation was in' consequence of special legislation regarding them. He desired to see the Maoris educated up to register on the ordinary electoral rolls of the colony, and they should be encouraged to do so. There were several gentlemen in the House whose election was largely influenced by Maori votes. Mr. ROWE supported the second reading of the Bill, and would be glad to see it carried through the present session. It was simply ah instalment of justice to the native race. He believed that the Maori representation in the House had a great influence for good on the native race.

Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS supported the Bill, but would like to see the 4th clause amended in committee.

Mr. W. WOOD also supported the measure, but would like to see a difference made between those , districts which were loyal and those which were in a state of semi-rebellion.

The Hon. Sir DONALD McLEAN spoke in favor of the Bill, and said that during the recess the Government would take the whole question of Maori representation into consideration. '

Sir GEORGE GREY cordially supported the Bill, and would do his utmost to carry the Bill through in all its stages. The mover having,replied, the Bill was read a second time. DISQUALIFICATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

Mr. MONTGOMERY moved the second reading of the above Bill. Messrs. Woolcock, D. Reid, Pyke, and, Lumsden opposed the measure, and Sir George Grey, Messrs. Reynold!), Stout, and S wanson supported it. A' division was called for, and the second reading, was carried by 87 to 15.; The Bill was referred ty) the Disqualification Committee. , .. The House adjourned at 1 a.m. ■ . ,