PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4828, 12 September 1876, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, September 11. The Speaker took the chair at half-past seven o'clock. PETITIONS, &C. Several petitions were presented and notices of motion were given. Amongst the latter was one by Sir George Grey to introduce a Bill to make abolition permissive in each province. Mr. Andrew gave notice of his intention to ask Ministers as to the correctness of their statements at various times in regard to the visit to England of Sir Julius Vogel. The statement made by each Minister was set out in each motion. RESIGNATION OF SIR JULIUS VOGEL. The SPEAKER intimated that he had received the resignation of Sir Julius Vogel as a member of the House. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that a new writ be at once issued for the vacant seat. Agreed to. POINT OF ORDER. Mr. ANDREW inquired whether to suspend the Standing Orders it was necessary twothirds of the members of the House should be present at the division? The SPEAKER replied in the affirmative. QUESTIONS. In reply to Mr. Woolcock, who inquired of the Government whether it was their intention to introduce a Goldfields’ Bill next session, having for its object the adjusting of goldfields’ charges, &c. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government would consider the matter during the recess. NEW BILLS. Mr. Bonny introduced the Wellington Gas Purchase Bill ; and Mr. Stout the Dunedin Wharves Bill. CIVIL LIST ACT AMENDMENT BILL. A message was received from his Excellency transmitting a draft of this Bill. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that the Bill be read a first time. This being agreed to, the hon. member rose and moved the suspension of the Standing Orders, in order that the Bill might be read a second time and carried through that night. He said he did so with a view of enabling the House to rectify without delay the technical difficulty which no doubt had arisen chiefly through his fault, as he had failed to observe the fourth clause of the Civil List Act. The AttorneyGeneral last week had promised that the Goverment would consider the question raised by the hon. member for the Thames. The Government had considered the question, and had come to this conclusion—that although the Disqualification Act had not been infringed in spirit, there were certainly doubts raised which it was desirable to remove. To remove these doubts the somewhat unusual course had been adopted of sending the .Bill down by message from his Excellency, and asking the House to suspend the Standing Orders, with the view of proceeding with the consideration of the Bill at once, in order to place hon. gentleman in a position to consider the advisableness of remedying what clearly was only a technical difficulty. The Government at the same time had no desire to hurry the Bill through; if the House considered it expedient to restrain action, they would throw no obstacle in the way; but looking at the period of the session, the work which had yet to be done, and looking also to what had been the practice in the English Parliament in respect to these technical matters —namely, that they were regarded not as party questions hut formal difficulties which gentlemen from all parts of the House might meet to remedy—the Government had thought they would be not doing their duty if they did not place the House in a position to dispose of the matter at the earliest possible moment. He did not purpose entering into a legal discussion, but the whole question at issue was whether “ allowance ” used in the Act meant an allowance in the sense of profit. There could be no doubt that it was not the intention of the Legislature, when it passed the Act, that the word allowance should be regarded in any such sense ; and he referred to the pecu-. liar construction of the clauses to show that such was not the case. Clauses 3 and 5. giving Ministers salary were appropriation clauses, and the Colonial Treasurer was entitled to pay the salaries, but the 4th clause, which provided that members of the Executive Council should be paid travelling allowances, was not an appropriation clause, and could not be acted upon during the session, as travelling expenses would not be allowable then. The allowance to an Executive Councillor could not be regarded as a salary. The whole question was of a technical character, and the Government hoped the House would proceed with the Bill at once ; but of course if hon. members were of opinion that the breach of the law came within the real meaning and intent of the Act, it was certainly very desirable to pause. He might say that the Government were exceedingly anxious that nothing should be done to place in the House an unreasonable number of salaried officers ; but at the same time, they were not prepared, nor did they think the House was prepared, to delay the business of the country on mere technicalities. If the House did not decide to pass the Bill at once, he should take the second reading next day.

Sir GEORGE GREY said he should be sorry to see the House allow this matter to be hurried on. It had no relation whatever to proceedings of a similar kind which might have taken place in the British Parliament. He looked at the Ministerial benches, and he thought of benches in another place, and he saw that there were members who now occupied them, as another had occupied them, despite of warnings that they had no right to sit there. He had over and over again complained that the gentlemen on these benches were in truth not members of the House, but his remarks had been met with taunts. On one occasion they had been challenged to meet the Attorney-General in the Supremo Court or in the Court of Appeal. On several occasions the Premier had told them, as the late Premier had toll them, that they would not allow these questions to be settled by the House. [The Hon. Major Atkinson reminded the hon. member that he had expressed his willingness to have the matter settled by a select committee, or in any other way that the House might desire]. They had, ho repeated, been on more than one occasion told that even in the House of Commons such a question was not allowed to be considered. They had been told distinctly that it was the duty of some members of the House to appeal to the Courts of the country to get a decision on such a subject, and, in Compliance with that demand, he had intimated to the House that he. should so appeal. His words were that such statements having been made, some individual must sacrifice himself for the public good ; but now they were anxious not to meet him in the Courts of the country, but to have their action indemnified in that House. He contended that it was not fair thus to interfere with him and the Courts in an action which had already been commenced. Such an appeal should, in fairness and justice, be allowed to go on. Hon. gentlemen, though warned not to sit on those benches, continued to deal with public moneys and offices and to transact business as if their

right to sit there was perfect, whereas he' was satisfied that if they turned to the law they would feel convinced that - they - had no right whatever to sit there. Since these doubts had been raised the Premier had with the late Premier undertaken iu some way that the one should go out of office"—that he should recommend his Excellency the Governor to send for another gentleman, who was the present Premier, and that the present Premier should confer on the retiring Premier a high office with great emoluments. Nothing of the kind had ever taken place in the British House of Parliament. He (Sir George Gi-ey) felt justified in going several degrees further than this, and in saying that what had been done was nothing but a manifestation of a determination to care but little for the laws, if these laws stood in the way of transactions which they desired to carry out. The AttorneyGeneral should have known that he really had no right to sit in that House considering the interests he had iu connection with the Waikato swamp. To his mind it was not right that an hon. gentleman interested in so vast a property should have run the risk of some individual coming into the law court to displace him from that House—that he should use his position in that House to force on a transaction against the laws of the colony as affecting both Europeans and natives, and then attempt to make it legal by legalising the seats which he and others held iu that House. There was another very grave question connected with this matter. The greatest constitutional question which had ever been agitated within the last century in this Empire was now being debated here. Above all times and above all places, this country and the present period were the last in which the Government should have endeavored to force through a measure of this kind. If his Excellency’s advisers were so ignorant of the law as to advise what was contrary to the law, his Excellency should have withstood such a proceeding, and his advisers should not have endeavored to take the House by surprise as they had done. What was the position of those who acted with him in the present public emergency ? He said this that they were a harmless people. They had endeavored to take nothing; they had endeavored to take no Constitution from the people ; they had endeavored to take no lands from European or native ; they had endeavored to take no funds to which they were not entitled ; their struggle rather had been that the people should not be deprived of their rights and liberties. Last session they had implored this House not to force the Abolition Bill uutill an appeal had been made to the country; but Civil Servants, and those who had no right to be there, had forced though a measure which had no right to be passed, and in the despatch in which the measure had been forwarded Home no candid statement was made showing what their rights really were. Their struggle for this ought not now to be interfered with wrongly; they ought not to be deprived of their advantages by those lately occupying those benches until the Courts had decided whether they should return to their constituencies for re-election —a contingency which was in some instances more than doubtful. He heard some hon. members laugh, but at what he could not tell, for he felt assured that some of these gentlemen if sent back to their constituents would not again see the inside of that House. That which was just and righteous would be gained; the Abolition Bill would be made permissive ; those who estimated it a benefit would be enabled to adopt it, and those who regarded it as a curse would be allowed, under their own forms of legislature, torejeot it. Another reason why the constituencies should be appealed to was the fact which they could not conceal that these hon. gentlemen, in pursuing their dogged determination iu taking from the people their rights, were forcing on disturbances which once raised it would be impossible to quell. They had a right to ask that these hon. gentlemen after illegally holding office should take the opinion of their constituents as to whether they would or would not support them iu their conduct. They had deliberately set at defiance all the laws under the Constitution, arid now again they were setting the law at defiance. Let them send in their resignations to the Speaker. Let them come to him and talk to him about the actions which he had commenced, and let them honorably say “We shall send in our resignations.” How long would it delay business ? Other hon. gentlemen could conduct the business, and the elections would only occupy a few days. Let the actions proceed against them, and have the matterdecided. In consideration of all that he had urged, he was strongly of opinion that the law should take its course, and if Ministers had the slightest regard for their own pledges, they would adhere to the course which he proposed. The Premier bad distinctly told him the .other night that if it was considered they had no right to their seats some member should proceed in the Courts. Let the Attorney-General who the other night had been so triumphant, who had spoken so disparagingly of that House, who in a kind of native war dance challenged them to meet him in the Court of Appeal—let him do that which he said he would do. Let them find out first whether he had a right to sit as member for Waikato. Then let them know whether he had a right to sit as AttorneyGeneral. Let them know also whether he had a right to sit as one of nine members of an Executive. Do not let them go to the Governor to help them out of their difficulty. Nothing more unfair could be done. He would have felt glad if they could have said “ We feel that our constituents will again return us to this House, and we ask the House to make arrangements until the elections are over.” But of all possible courses they had taken the; worst. That they should have dragged the Governor further into the matter, and had used the Queen’s name in connection with what it should never have been mixed up with, was the worst course they could have adopted. For himself, he would resist this Bill to the very uttermost. All the forms of the House he would avail himself of, and he implored them not to force this Bill through, but to withdraw it, and adjourn to consider what other course they should pursue. Mr. REES said that he himself had during the session moved four times in this very matter of disqualification, and had been met by rebuff on all but the last occasion, when a, select committee of the House was appointed to consider it ; and now the Ministry proposed to anticipate the report of the committee by suspending the standing orders and passing the Bill brought down. He would oppose the suspension of the standing orders.

Mr. MONTGOMERY considered that the question involved in the Bill had been referred to the Disqualification Committee ; but that committee had not met, and therefore had not reported ; and now the House was asked to pass an Act of indemnity for an illegal act. Though he thought those acts had not been done with intention, still he condemned undue haste, and therefore proposed an adjournment until this day, when the committee could report, and the House could act upon that report without giving an injurious and wrong precedent. Were his suggestion not carried, he thought a sufficient number of members to carry the suspension of the standing orders would not remain in the House. He moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr. KELLY opposed the adjournment of the debate.

Mr. WAKEFIELD supported the adjournment, and considered the conduct of the Ministry a deliberate attempt to reverse the action of the Legislature in 1873. Major Atkinson was the last member he expected to see connect himself with this trumpery measure. Mr. Wakefield argued the question of the legal status of Ministers at some length. He would oppose both the suspension of standing orders and the Bill brought down by the Ministry. He was as anxious as anyone for, the despatch of business, but they might purchase despatch too dearly by purchasing it at the cost of a most vicious precedent. The Hon. Mr. Whitaker was alone responsible for the position in which the Ministry found themselves ; ho was as fatal an addition to the Cabinet as the wooden horse had been to the resources of the Trojans. Mr. Wakefield attributed to the desire of the Ministry to strengthen themselves by the assistance of Mr. Whitaker without at the same giving up any of their seats the breach of the law which they had committed.

' The Hon. Mr. WHITAKER had never remembered more inaccuracies being stated in the same number of words as had been stated by Mr. Wakefield. "Mr. Whitaker trusted to be able to show when the second reading of the Bill came on that no great illegality had been committed, and asked the House to suspend its judgment until then. He asked the House to negative the adjournment of the debate, when he would propose to make the second reading of the Bill an order of the day for next day, when he would be prepared to fully justify and explain it. Mr. READER WOOD, after the exhibition of law recently given by Mr. Whitaker, would have more confidence in Mr. Wakefield’s law than in that of the former gentleman. The action of the Ministry was like that of a big bounceable hoy at school who when resisted by a small boy took refuge by his mamma’s skirts. Mr. Wood said he would oppose not only the suspension of the standing orders, but any attempt to rush the Bill through before Sir George Grey had an opportunity of testing the question at issue in the courts of law. Mr. STEVENS advocated referring the Bill to the Select Committee bn Disqualification which would sit at 11 o’clock next day, when it could be reported on by that evening’s sitting. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said that Sir George Grey, Mr. Wakefield, and Mr. Wood had treated the Government unfairly. When he brought down the Bill he had expressly stated that there was no intention to force the suspension of the standing orders, but that the Government considered it right to give the House the opportunity of considering the question. He acceded to Mr. Stevens’ proposition to wait for the sitting of the select committee, and read the Bill a second time next day. Mr. MONTGOMERY withdrew his motion for adjournment. The Hon. Major ATKINSON withdrew his motion for the suspension of the standing orders, and the second reading of the Bill was made an order of the day for next day. APPEAL TO CONSTITUENCIES. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply Mr. Murray moved the amendment of which he had given notice, providing that on a change of Ministry the members of the new Cabinet should go before their constituents. After discussion, Mr. Murray’s amendment was declared lost on the voices. A division was called for, and the amendment was lost by 26 to 22. The House went into Committee of Supply, and after putting a vote for the Customs Department, reported progress. The House adjourned at 2.15 a.m.