PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4823, 6 September 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, September 5. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. i THE CABINET. The Hon. Captain FRASER moved, — That this Council take into consideration the constitution of the Cabinet. In making his motion Captain Fraser referred to the four million loan, and characterised the statements made elsewhere, that it would have been as well negotiated by the Crown Agents though Sir Julius Vogel had not gone Home for the purpose, as “ flapdoodle.” It was very wellknown that the foreign banks were prepared to put on the screw, and that great commercial disaster was avoided by the negotiation of that loan. He (Captain Fraser) had had a conversation with Dr. Featherston, who had remarked that Sir Julius had done nothing hut what he was quite warranted in doing. Dr. Featherston had further remarked : What a fuss they are making about this money ; look at the amount he has saved by the marine cable. He (Captain Fraser) was pleased to hear that Sir Julius Vogel was to he appointed Agent-General (hear, hear). Referring to his hon. friend Mr. Hall, Captain Fraser could only hope that thev would see him occupy the position he did for the next ten years. As to Mr. Whitaker, he had known him for many years, and valued his abilities at a very high rate. Whatever was the position or place of that gentleman in the Cabinet he would be the guiding spirit. Sir Julius Vogel and Frederick Whitaker were the two brain powers of the colony. In speaking of the Land Fund, Captain Fraser thought that Otago and Canterbury would yet say, in a similar spirit to the saying of Cromwell: Frederick Whitaker, Frederick Whitaker, the Lord preserve us from Frederick Whitaker. Look at the manner in which the value of land was increased by the Public Works, the railways, &o. Why should not the Government reimburse themselves ? Why should the landowner have his income increased and not the professional man. Assessors, concluded the speaker, should be appointed to assess the value of the land, according to the money laid out by the State. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE did not see that a practical result could follow the motion, but thought such a result ought to follow, and should move an amendment. There was one matter to which he would call the attention of the Council—this was as to the position of two members of the Cabinet. The fifteenth clause of the Disqualification Act distinctly provided that “ no person, except as hereinafter defined, shall be capable of being elected to Parliament, or of holding any office permanent or temporary under the Government to which any fees, allowances, &c., are attached.” The exceptions were mentioned in a subsequent clause, and consisted of seven persons. The hon. member went on to show that the fourth clause of the Civil Service Act gave certain travelling allowances to members of the Executive Council travelling within the colony. Mr. Waterhouse contended that these clauses made it doubtful as to whether the two extra members could properly be part of the Cabinet. He moved that the matter should be referred to a select committee.

The Hon. X>r. POI/LEN took the opportunity of alluding to the essentially fair manner in which Mr. Waterhouse had always criticised the affairs of the Government of which he (Dr. Pollen) had lately been a member. In pursuance of that view he thought the motion of the hon. member should be taken as the expression of a desire to elucidate the matter. He should offer no opposition to it. However, he did not agree with the view taken by Mr. Waterhouse. Although the Civil Service Act provided for certain allowances, it was not necessary to cUm them. Referring to the speech of Captain Fraser, Dr. Pollen was glad to hear his testimony to the services of Sir JuliusYogel. As to the influence which Mr. Whitaker was likely to have in the Council, he (Dr. Pollen) could assure the hon. member that there were other members of the Cabinet who had decided opinions. There was no fear, concluded the Colonial Secretary, that the Government would be moved by any influence, within or without, to depart from the broad lines of policy which he had laid down in his speech on the previous evening. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE, with the permission of the Council, extended his argument by showing that the Act simply mentioned one of the grounds of disqualification as offices to which salary, &c., was attached. He instanced the Chiltern Hundreds. Members of the Imperial Parliament who accepted the Chiltern Hundreds never intended to take any emolument whatever, yet the acceptance of the office was sufficient to render their seats vacant.

The Hon. Dr. MENZIES did not agree with the view taken by Mr. Waterhouse. After speaking to the question shortly, ho concluded by expressing a hope that the Government would receive the support of the Council.—The Hon. Colonel Whitmore dwelt upon the point that there was no mention in the Disqualification Act of receipt of allowance, fees, &0., simply “any office to which fees, &c., were attached." He thought the subject deserving of enquiry.—The Hon. Colonel Kbnnx would give a guarded support to the Government

The motion for referring the matter to a committee was agreed to. THE RATING BILL. The second reading of this Bill was moved by the Hon. Mr. Hall, who explained the measure. The Bill has just been fully discussed in the Lower Chamber.—The Hons. Colonel Whitmore, Waterhouse, Peacock, Chamberlin, and G. R. Johnson criticised the Bill ; and in reply the Hon. Mr. |Hall thanked lion, gentlemen for their suggestions. In committee they would doubtless receive proper consideration. The second reading was agreed to, and the committal of the Bill made an order of the day for next day. SECOND READINGS. The Renwick Lease and Conveyance Bill was read a second time on the motion of the Hon. Hr. Grey. The second reading of the Warehoused Goods Bill was also agreed to on the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen. The measure has just gone through the House of Representatives. The Diocese of Christchurch Lands Bill was withdrawn. The second reading of the Land Transfer Act Amendment Bill was discharged from the paper, and made an order of the day for next day. WAREHOUSED GOODS BILL. The Council then went into committee on this Bill, which was reported -without amendment,—Third reading next day. PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE BILL. Clause 4 was amended by adding the following words:—“But no estate shall be dealt with under this provision, except with the consent of a Judge, who may make such order

as to him may seem fit.” Clause 10 was verbally amended, and the third reading of the BUI was made an order of the day for next day. : \ _ ! PUBLIC HEALTH BILL. This Bffi' was further considered in committee.' Clause 33 was erased. The postponed clauses were then considered. On clause 56, the Hon. Dr. Pollen moved that the provisions of sub-section 4 of the clause should only apply to places containing over 5000 inhabitants. On clause 20 au amendment was moved, giving the Governor power to declare from time to time by proclamation what are deemed to he infectious diseases; and upon publication of the proclamation, the diseases mentioned shaU be deemed to be infectious accordingly. Clauses 85 and 103 were verhaUy amended and agreed to. REGULATION OP LOCAL ELECTIONS BILL. This measure was considered at the evening sitting, and a discussion ensued upon a message from the House of Representatives as to an amendment by the Council in clause 52,. which the House of Representatives were prepared to accept if the foUowing words were added—“ Unless the contrary be proved.” BUILDING SOCIETIES BILL. The amendments made in this Bill by the House of Representatives were considered and agreed to, with the exception of clause 20, which was postponed for further discussion, _ MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed next day. The Council adjourned at 9 p.m. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES.. Tuesday, September 5. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. . PETITIONS AND NOTICES. A number of petitions were presented' and notices given, amongst others by. the Hon. Mr Whitaker, to introduce a Bill to repeal the Attorney-Generals Act. REPORTS. The Public Petitions Committee brought up reports on a number of petitions, one being upon a petition by Mr. H. W. Farnall. This gentleman, it appeared, had been dismissed ! rom the Agent-General’s department in England without notice, and claimed compensation. The committee reported him entitled to £139. Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS said there had been serious charges made against Mr. Farnall during the enquiry,.but they had not been gone into. Therefore he moved the suspension of the standing orders to enable him to move for a select committee to investigate the matter.

The SPEAKER having counted the House said there was not a sufficiently large House to allow o£ the standing orders being suspended. Sir ROBERT DOUGLAS then gave notice of motion for the appointment of a select com* mittee. Some little discussion then ensued as to the report upon a petition from Southland, complaining of the action of the Provincial Government and its officers. It transpired that the persons petitioning had been telegraphed to, and asked to come forward and substantiate their allegations, but had failed to do so, and had not furnished any information further than that there had been a rumor of improper acts having been committed. QUESTIONS, Several questions were asked of Ministers. In replying to one. the Hon. Major Atkinson mentioned that the report of the Royal Commission upon the Brunner bridge was in the hands of the printer, and would be placed on the table of the House as soon as the Government had considered it. In reply to a question put by Mr. Montgomery, asking if the Government would place upon the table all telegrams and correspondence in reference to floating the debentures in England recently,. The Hon. Major ATKINSONsaid the Government were not yet in full possession of all the facts in regard to the placing of this loan, but as soon as they became possessed of the information they would place everything before the House. THE AGENT-QENERAXiSHIP.. Mr. ANDREW moved, —That this House does not approve of the office of Agent-Gene-ral of New Zealand being offered to Sir Julius Vogel. He explained that his action was not taken from any want of personal sympathy and personal friennship for the hon. member for Wanganui, but he had taken the course he had adopted' from a sense of duty, and in opposition to personal regard for that hon. member. The hon. member no doubt possessed many noble qualities, and he (Mr.. Andrew) appreciated those qualities; no one did so more thoroughly perhaps ; but still the hon. member did not possess qualities fitting him for the office of Agent-General any more eminently than did many other gentlemen. He believed that both in the House aud out of the House men were to be found who were fully equal to Sir Julius Vogel, if not superior; and holding that opinion, he should deal with this question purely upon its merits, without any regard to ulterior consequences. There was a point to be touched upon first which he willingly would have omitted touching upon, if he could conveniently have done so,, and that was the ill-health of Sir Julius Vogel. For a long time past Sir Julius Vogel had been suffering from illhealth ; he had told them so ; there were medical certificates to that effect on the table of the House ; his friends could see it; and yet it was proposed to translate him from the Government benches to perform arduous duties at a great distance from the colony at a moat critical time in the colony’s history,— duties which he possibly, even probably, might break down under, —duties which last year,according to his own statement, had aggravated his illness, and which, according to his physicians, it was dangerous for him to continue performing. It was painful to refer to these matters ; but it was necessary. It was pleasant to study personal feeling ; but it was the duty of the House to study the interests of the country, and it was his deliberate opinion, that it was not for the interests of the country to appoint to the responsible and hardly-worked . office of Agent-General a gentleman who was in such a state of health that he might break down under it; neither was it fair , to expect him to undertake the work. On this point no more need be said. It had been stated that Sir Julius Vogel, from his abilities aud good qualities, was eminently fitted for the position of Agent-GeneraL He (Mr. Andrew) held no such opinion of Sir Julius Vogel. As he had stated before, there were within those walls and without those walls persons quite as capable. As the king in olden time was related to have said, “ I trust I have within my realm five hundred good as he,” and- what, had been true then was quite as true in New Zealand now. The hon. member for Wanganui had in many ways shown himself to be a most capable man ; but there were men in the colony as capable as he was,, and if necessary, men even more capable could be mentioned. There were political reasons why the hon. member should not be appointed; but before proceeding to state what those reasons were, he (Mr. Andrew) desired to clear himself from any charges of inconsistency which might be brought against him,, though he could not recognise that charges of inconsistency should be allowed to invalidate argument. True, he had since he had been in Parliament given Sir Julius Vogel a general support, and had at critical limes backed him with his vote when a vote was of value ; but on many occasions he had not shrunk from disagreeing with the way in which the political affairs of the country were being managed. To go no further back, he had done so last session, whenhe expressed his opinion, in Committee of Supply, upon the conduct of Sir Julius Vogel in reference to his trip to England. And here he would add he was sorry, both for the sake of the hon. gentleman and for the sake of the credit of the country, that Sir Julius Vogel had not on his return cleared away the clouds which hung about that matter. It would have been well if these clouds had been dissipated and left behind a brightened sky and a clear atmosphere. That had not been done; and he with many others was disappointed. It seemed to him that it would be a bad thing

for the interests of the'country if Sir Julius were taken out of it and from the Ministerial benches, where he should be responsible to public opinion, and placed uncontrolled iii London as the Agent-General of the colony. An Agent-General must be possessed of several qualifications: he ought to be capable of acting in a subordinate position, he ought to be economical, and he ought to be a man who could work readily with others. He was not one of those who recognised that Sir Julius Vogel possessed these peculiar excellences. As to his being economical, ' no one could claim that for him. As Premier of the colony, he had ordered, on behalf of the colony, £3OO worth of Mr. Darraud’s pictures, for which the House had not made an appropriation. Many other instances of the kind might be adduced; but it was not necessary to go on, as Sir Julius Vogel had himself placed it on record, within the present year, that he did not pretend to be economical. As to his inclinations to work amicably with other people, they were not visible in the bank correspondence, in the correspondence with the Crown agents, nor in the correspondence with the late Dr. Featherston. In all these instances Sir Julius Vogel had not shown himself possessed of facilities for agreeing with those with whom he was officially connected. Neither did he show any aptitude for acting in a subordinate capacity. There was at least one instance in which this was proved—he had acted in a kind of subordinate capacity in the Ministry under Mr. Waterhouse ; but he had not so acted vary long, for in fact he ousted Mr. Waterhouse from the Premiership. He had again been in a subordinate position when Premier, so far as the House was concerned. It was ‘ supposed a Premier should act in submission to the representatives of the people ; but what had been the fact? The House had not been master of the Ministry, the Ministry had been master of the House, and very sorry he (Mr. Andrew) had been to see the House set at defiance. In illustration of this portion of his remarks, the hon. member referred to the mail service, and Sir Julius Vogel’s visit to England. In the first case, the hon. member for Wanganui had, the day after the session, authorised Mr. Russell to make what contract he pleased, irrespective of the decision of Parliament ; and in the other case he had, after leading the House to believe he had no intention of going Home, called a Cabinet meeting the day after the session closed, and got himself appointed to go first to Sydney, and then to England. One who had shown so little respect for the will of the House was not the man for the subordinate position of Agent-General. He believed he had shown that the hon. member for Wanganui did not possess the requisite qualifications for the office; but there were other reasons why he should not be allowed to take the position. It was not desirable in a young country like this to train up a class of professional politicians ; and he recognised this promotion to the Agent-Generalship as a step by means of which Sir Julius Vogel would secure the promotion of his own private interests —a twelve months’ engagement to enable him to settle in London. He was not going to say that the country could not do without Sir Julius Vogel; but he would say this, that that hon. gentleman should have stayed to see the end of his Public Works policy. In conclusion, he hoped hon. members would vote upon the question without regard to personal feelings, because if he were to vote on personal grounds he should vote for the hon. member for Wanganui getting the appoint- 1 ment. Members came to that House to do the best they could for the country; and in this connection he would ask whether it was for the good of the country that to secure the services of the hon. member for Wanganui for twelve months, they should cast a slur upon and possibly lose the services of the gentlemen who had served the country for years past—the Crown Agents. He referred to the correspondence to show that Sir Julius Vogel and the Crown Agents could never work together, and asked if the new two million loan was sanctioned, who was to float it? Either the Agent-General, or the Grown Agents must be passed over, and unless the Crown Agents could be shown to have been wrong in the late quarrel, they must be upheld, and Sir Julius Vogel not consulted in the negotiation of the loan. That alone should be sufficient to prevent this appointment being made. He believed the Crown Agents were right, and he appealed to the dead as well as to the living, and asked the House to read what the late Dr. Featherston had written. He heped hon. members would record their votes without fear of ulterior results—he had occasionally voted with a fear of ulterior results, but he had been sorry for it. Let each one vote honestly according to his manner of thinking, and not fear what might come after. He had no personal antipathy against the hon. member ; on the contrary, he had every sympathy for him; but he objected to his appointment. He would prefer to see the course followed when old officers retired repeated in this case —he would give the hon. member a gratuity of £3OOO or £3OOO, but not the AgentGeneralship. (Opposition cheers.) The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said he thought it was admitted on all hands that there must be au Agent-General. (No ; yes.) He repeated he thought everyone would admit it was necessary to send Home some one with authority as Agent-General to act for the colony in financial matters requiring attention in Loudon. (No ; yes.) There were many important things necessary to be done, amongst which was the completion of the negotiations—negotiations in which the Colonial Office had taken a deep interest—for the inscription by the Bank of England of New Zealand stock, just as English stock was inscribed ; and if for no other reason than to complete those negotiations, an Agent-General should be sent Home. There could be no donbt if snob negotiations were completed the result would be a great benefit to the colony—more benefit than hon. members seemed to be aware uf. This and other matters now pressing for settlement once disposed of, it might be a question whether arrangements should not be made for diminishing at first, and then, winding up altogether, the office and department of Agent-General ; but at this stage the Government could not say what course would be adopted as regards the future, for it was a question demanding serious consideration. However, to return. It was absolutely necessary that at present the colony should be represented in London, and that the representative should be - a .man intimately versed in the public affairs of the colony; a man who knew its wants; and no one could fill this position better than a gentleman who for years had enjoyed the confidence of the House and the country, and who Was well known as a good administrator. In considering the question of who should be appointed to fill the office, the Government had been guided by the course in respect to appointments of Agents-General which had been adopted in the Australian colonies, and in each case they found the man had been appointed who at the time the appointment was made was immediately connected with the political world of the colony. In this colony of New Zealand the first and only previous Agent-General had resigned his office in the Ministry to take the vacancy. In Victoria, Sir George Verdox was appointed from the Colonial Trcasurersbip. In New South Wales, Mr. Cowper was at the head of the Ministry, and his colleague Mr. Robertson went down to the House and announced that the Government had resigned and the Premier had accepted the Agency-General; that was in 1870. In 1875, Mr. Forster, the Colonial Treasurer of New South Wales, was sent Home. And only the other day Mr. Macalister, who had been a Minister before he was appointed AgentGeneral for Queensland, on his return to the colony was re-appointed a Minister. Therefore it appeared, so far as the Ministry could judge, the appointments generally fell upon men who were connected with the Government at the time of the appointment. Now, when the lamented death of the late Dr. Featherston became known, the question immediately arose as to who was to be his successor. There could he no doubt that the successor was by both sides of the House and by the people outside the House looked for in the person of Sir Julius Vogel; and very soon it became clear it would be impossible to proceed with the ordinary business of the Government until the question was settled. Motion after motion ap-

' peared'on the Order Paper/and queetions were continual!/ being put to the Government, directly and indirectly, as to who waa to be Agent-General. Then the question was taken into consideration, and the Government decided that there must be an Agent-General, and that Sir Julius was the fittest person to take the position if his services could be obtained. Sir Julius Vogel took a very straightforward ; course. He immediately came to the House, told the House shat had been done, and resigned office. In doing that he did what he thought was the beat thing to be done, and the Government in stating to the House its inteution to appoint Sir Julius Vogel did so—not with the object of shaking off responsibility, for that could, not be done if they wished to do so believing it to be right to take the House into its confidence, though it had not invited and was not to be held responsible for this discussion. The hon. gentleman who had moved this resolution had raised the objection that Sir Julius Vogel was not the proper person to be appointed, because he was not economical, and did not get on well with people with whom he had official intercourse. These were very grave accusations to make against a gentleman who for years had led the House,but he (Mr, Bowen) was bound to to say they were not true. But evenif they were, it was somewhat strange that the hon. member should have supported Sir Julius Vogel in conducting the affairs of the colony, when such qualities might act prejudicially to the colony; and object to his retiring from that position and taking an office in which he would have to obey the orders of the Government and of this House through the Government. Then the h on. member spoke of Sir Julius Vogel being unfitted for a subordinate position; but he (Mr. Bowen) could say that when that gentleman was in England last year the Government had seen nothing of that unfitness. They found, on the contrary, that in or two cases at least he obeyed orders which were very distasteful to him. Even when he had taken steps to pursue a particular course, and the Government in the colony did not approve of the course being taken, Sir Julius Vogel, though deeply impressed with the propriety of the course he had taken, at once countermanded the orders he had given. He was perfectly sure that no one could be better acquainted with official routine, or more alive to the necessity of carrying out the orders of those who were responsible to the country for the orders given than was Sir Julius Vogel. As for other remarks which had been made he thought they might be passed over. The services Sir Julius Vogel had rendered to the colony would speak for themselves, and when the heat and excitement of party conflict should have passed away, and the result of his work came to be examined into in a calm and dispassionate manner, the substantial character of his efforts and his able conduct of affairs would be acknowledged. Till that time Sir Julius Vogel could afford to wait, for the country would then be thankful in its enjoyment of the benefits that had accrued to it from his administration of public affairs during the past few years. In concluding, the hon. gentleman said the Government had determined that an Agent-General was necessary to conduct the business of the colony at Home, and they had also determined that it was advisable to send Home the hon. member for Wanganui. (Cheers). Mr. ROLLESTON considered the Government were responsibleforthe discussion because they had not thrown upon the House in the first instance the responsibility of saying who should be Agent-General. He wished that course had been adopted, because thereby the hon. member for Wanganui would have been spared many unpleasant remarks, though he (Mr. Rolleston) was bound to say the hon. member for Wairarapa had said what he had to say in a very considerate manner. Having regretted that the question should have been made a party question, because it should net be discussed from that standpoint, the speaker said he should discuss it simply upon the merits of the proposed appointment. Whatever might be said to the contrary, the House and the country could only regard Sir Julias Vogel’s retirement from the Ministry and acceptance of the Agent-Generalship as a desertion from his post at a time when the policy by which he had led the country into great expense was about to be tested. Not that he (Mr. Rolleston) believed the colony was in inextricable difficulties, because he had very great hopes of the colony, but Sir Julius Vogel was responsible for the present position of affairs, and he should have remained at the* post of duty in the time of danger. He expressed alarm at the prospect of further dissensions between Sir Julius Vogel and- the Crown Agents, and expressed the opinion that the last letters of the' Crown Agents were written with the cognisance and approval of the Colonial Office, and that the relations between the colony and the Colonial Office might be unfortunately disturbed by further affronts ; being offered. He compared the expense of the New Zealand agency with those of the agencies of Victoria and South Australia The latter colonics were represented by AgentsGeneral at a cost of £3OOO and £2200 respec-. tively, while the cost to New Zealand was £IO,OOO. It had been as much as £IB,OOO a year, but that was owing to the existence for the time being of an abnormal state of things. Replying to the instances of appointments of a like character in the other colonies, he said he did not think New Zealand should be bound by the precedents of other colonies; but even so* Mr. Cowper’s was the only case at all in point, and then it did not appear that Mr. Cowper was the originator of a bold policy, and left the colony before it was carried out. Mr. STOUT took exception to the form of the motion, and said if it were rejected, and he believed it would be rejected, the result would be that the House would be responsible for the appointment of Sir Julius Vogel, and he should move an amendment. In discussing the remarks of Mr. Andrew, he said that hon. gentleman had deprecated the raising up of a class of professional politicians, but he had taken no notice of that argument when giving his vote for abolition. ■He (Mr. Stout) had pointed out last session that the effect of abolition would be to throw the governing power into the hands of such people, because there waa not yet a leisured class in New Zealand from which could be chosen representatives who could afford to spend six months every year in Wellington. Abolition would do more to encourage that class than would any number of appoint* meets of the nature of that at present under discussion. Xu addition to Mr. Rolleston’s figures, Mr. Stout mentioned that in Queensland the cost of an Agent-General was £3OOO. He moved the previous question by way of amendment.

The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS very much regretted the discussion had taken place, and took occasion to deny the truthfulness of the statement that Sir Julius Vogel had ousted Mr. Waterhouse from the Premiership. S ; r Julius Vovel and himself were in Sydney when that gentleman resigned the Premiership, and Sir Julius Vogel could have known nothing about it. As to the charges against Sir Julius Vogel brought by the mover of the resolution, he could only say he had known the late Premier ever since he came to the colony, and his fifteen years experience and watching of the public career of that statesman quite belied what had been said of him that afternoon. ■ As a subordinate, or as the head of a Ministry—in whatever position he had occupied—he had always shown to those associated with him the utmost courtesy and consideration. As to the merits of the appointment, he really could not see how exception could be taken to it. The department sorely needed re-organisation ; the financial interests of the country demanded the presence of some one acquainted with the colony in England ; and to accomplish the one and furnish the other, no better choice than that of Sir Julius Vogel could have been made. He referred to the service the hon, gentleman had done in replying to the detractors of the colony during his late visit to England, and expressed his firm belief that had it not been for the able reply Sir Julius Vogel, though seriously ill, had made to the paper of Mr, Fellows and the articles of anonymous scribblers in the public Press, the Four Million Loan would have been a failure. :

Mr. DONALD BEID considered the motion very useless and very ill-advised, for it would result in responsibility being thrown

upon the House which should rest upon .the Government. The Government had a perfect right to appoint.whom they, pleased, and though the House might withdraw its confidence from the Government, it could not affect the appointment. The question really was whether there should be an Agent-General at all. He was perfectly convinced there must be such an officer, not for this year or uext'.year, but'for many years to come. It was quite impossible that a colony growing in importance, constantly requiring l assistance from the money market, plant and material for public works, and immigrants, could go unrepresented. ■ As to the appointment, he intended to support it; and before he . went further he might say he had, though consistently opposing the policy of the late Premier, always given him credit for honesty of purpose and great ability. He had never been actuated by personal animus, and he had not opposed his schemes so much as the manner in which he had worked them out. No doubt there had been recklessness; no doubt the public works of the colony were very expensive—could with proper management have been constructed at 25 per cent, less cost—but what was the use of raking that up now, why should erstwhile supporters level charges against au absent man, or a man about to leave the colony? He did not mean to.vsay the late Premier had acted very prudently in some things; but he would say this, he believed he had always acted to the best of his judgment for the good of the colony; and it he had not, members had supported him. One session with him they had declared for provincialism ; the next session the same members thought with him that the provinces must be abolished, and the hon. member for Wairarapa was amongst the majority. He should vote against the resolution. He believed that the hon. member for Wanganui was a very able man, and had done much for the colony; but at the same time he had been very expensive, and while he would make a very bad Premier he would make a very good Agent-General. Mr. MURRAY expressed the opinion that an Agent-General was not wanted, and thought however good a thing it might be to get rid of the hon. member for Wanganui, it would not be good for the colony to put him in the position of Agent-General. He would vote against any sum being put on the Estimates for the maintenance of the Agent-General's department; or at all events for a great reduction, believing that there was no necessity for an Agent-General, and that all these matters could be conducted by the Crown Agents. Mr. WASON enquired whether the Government proposed to accept the amendment of Mr Stout? (Government Members : Yes, yes). Then there was an end to party Government, and he would record his vote along with the member for Wairarapa. Sir DONALD McLEAN thought that no matter what course had been adopted by the Government there were members who would have found cause for objection. He paid a high tribute to the worth of Sir Julius Vogel, and thought that before many years were over full justice would be done to his zeal, self-denial, and interest in the welfare of the colony. As one of the oldest of Sir Julius Vogel’s colleagues, he testified to the manner in which that gentleman had always deferred to the advice of his colleagues. Sir Donald McLean, onhehalf of the Government, accepted the amendment of Mr. Stout, and would take the full responsibility of appointing Sir Julius Vogel.

Mr. READER WOOD contended that Mr. Andrew’s action had been forced upon him by the Government making the appointment of Sir Julius Vogel a cardinal point of their policy. He thought that Sir Julius Vogel ever since he had been in power had done two things—he had drawn upon his imagination for his facts, and had appealed to the constituencies for support by promising a large expenditure of money, being always ready to bid for a vote, either by offering a member something for himself or something for his constituents. And now, therefore, they found themselves loaded with difficulty and debt, in contradistinction to the promises held out by Sir Julius Vogel when he introduced his public Works policy. It was a most lamentable exhibition. He could understand a high-minded statesman sticking to his policy, even though that policy had proved a failure, but Sir Julius Vogel, like a charlatan, abandoned the country when he found his policy to be a failure. Talk had beenmadeof Sir Julius Vogel’s services. What were these services? why, “ taxation, taxation, taxation.” Mr. Wood did not consider it to be out of order, since the question had been made one of policy by the Government, to discuss other points in their policy as stated the pre vious evening. The SPEAKER: The hon. member had better confine himself to the question. Mr. WOOD had two objections to raise to the appointment. As the question had been dragged before the House it should be discussed on its merits. His fiist objection was on the ground of economy, as he thought the Agent-General’s department an unnecessary expense. Even before news of the death of Dr. Featherston had arrived he (Mr. Wood) had resolved not to try and remove that gentleman, but to try and effect economy in his department. But now they had the opportunity of winding it up altogether, and even, if his most intimate friend had been proposed as Agent-General, he (Mr. Wood) would have opposed the appointment. Mr. Wood’s second objection had regard to the personal unfitness of Sir Julius Vogel for the appointment. Sir Julius Vogel had proceeded more than once to England, and the manner in which he had come out of his missions had: been simply shocking. Mr. Wood at some length testified to the worth of the late Dr. Featherston, and criticised the conduct of Sir Julius Vogel towards that gentleman, and also towards the Crown Agents, fully proving, as Mr. . Wood' thought, that a gentleman with so treacherous a memory as that possessed by Sir Julius Vogel should not be appointed to an office like that ef Agent-General.

Mr. LUSK said he would vote with the member for Wairarapa, because the question was made a ministerial one, and there was no reason why there should not be an expression of opinion on the part of hon. members. He did not look upon the Hon. Sir Julius Vogel as the right man for the office, however. It appeared to him that the question they were discussing was as to whether they would bestow on Sir Julius the appointment which he had broken up a Government to obtain; and.be thought the House should not countenance such a dangerous precedent. The policy of the present Government was economy both here and at Horae, and whoever was to be Agent-General should be one who could fall ip with the wishes of the Ministry. Why, the hon. gentleman had no appreciation or conception of economy. He had increased the cost of administration within the last few years about £550,000. In this colony he never showed economy, and he was not likely to do so at Home. If the Agent-General’s office were to be wound up, as they were told, ho did not know that Sir Julius Vogel possessed any qualities in that direction, He had been connected with several things which had to be wound up, but they had always been wound up by others. He (the speaker) disagreed with the speech of the member for Taieri, as unworthy of that gentleman. There was no occasion to buy Sir Julius Vogel with a billet of some £ISOO a year, as he was going Homo in any case, and he would no doubt be more successful iu managing bis private affairs than he had been id managing the affairs of New Zealand.

Mr. PEARCE deprecated the injurious practice that was growing up of the House interfering with matters that were purely, executive. This was a case in which the House, or rather two or three members, forced the Ministry into the position of announcing what they intended to do in regard to the AgentGeneralship. There were -only three points of objection to be taken. Looking at the question of coat first, he would point out that it was utterly unfair to compare tho cost of the New Zealand Agent-Generalship with that of any other colony, because none of them had carried on anything like the Immigration or Public Works scheme that New Zealand had done for the last , few years. Speaking with some knowledge of the matters referred to, he maintained that if the matter was fairly looked at, it would bo found that the

-Agent-General’s department had been notat.aU costly. Had they got their work done at Home in the same way, as was the case formerly, by commission) they would have .had to pay £40,000, where they had only paid £IO,OOO or £18,00(U Hon. gentlemen had complained of Sir Julius Vogel deserting his post, while at the same time they regretted the absence of his services, and he thought it was to be regretted that the , colony could not find some ’ one to take the place of the gentleman who had hitherto been at the head, of the affairs of the colony. Mr. WAKEFIELD took exception to the appointment on the ground that a ministerial crisis was brought about iu order that Sir Julius Vogel should obtain the Agent-General-ship.: It was a fitting ending to his whole career, which he (the speaker) believed had only one object, namely, his own aggrandisement—perhaps not vulgarly, or the mere obtaining of money,'.but the love of popularity and perhaps renown in a larger sphere than New Zealand .afforded. The motives of the hon. gentleman were, he believed, selfish to the: very core; and as soon as the Agent-Generalship ceased!to, aid him in his fortunes, he would kick it from him.: They, were told of the examples of other colonies in matters of this kind, but that was no reason why they should copy everything that other colonies did. A pretty mess such a course would soon land them in. There was a time, he proceeded to say, when the statesmen.of New Zealand could be pointed to as being men of the highest principles and purest motives ; but that time had passed now. It had been the fashion to pass the most flattering eulogiums on Sir J ulius Vogel, such as that with which they bad been favored by the Native Minister, but the people would find when the golden mist passed from before their eyes how basely they had been deceived. He sincerely hoped that when these two gentlemen went Home they would he so prosperous that no earthly inducement would make them come back again. He disagreed with the vicious principle enunciated by the member for Taieri, of buying off one’s enemies, although he believed it would have paid the colony to have given him £I6OO a year it he had lived iu some remote part of the world for the last few years. The hon. gentleman then went on to speak of the extravagance of Sir Julius VdgeL Since his coming into office he had received some £30,000, had had two trips to England, had ' found offices for six exMiuisters in seven years, and he had introduced the innovation of making, the, colony support a Minister’s wife and family while he was absent. Now, he would ask, was this man a sufferer or a martyr by this seven years’ service ? They had heard a great deal of the patriotism of Sir Julius Vogel; but patriotism was of various kinds. The patriotism of the member for Timaru, for instance, consisted in living in New Zealand ; that of Sir Julius Vogel found vent in living on New Zealand. Why, Sir Julius Vogel had not passed half the time he had been in office in the colony, although in one of his “ banqueting speeches” he had stated that his dearest hope was to live and die in New Zealand. The Premier had been apathetic during the session, and it seemed that that hon. gentleman had purposely kept secret his intention in order to aid him in carrying the object he had in view, namely, the most iniquitous job that was aver perpetrated in the colony, Mr. REES said that three years ago he saw that .the colony was approaching a period of very great peril, and he ridiculed arguments adduced by Messrs. Pearce and Bowen why Sir Julius Vogel should be appointed to the office of Agent-General. He next referred to the speech of the hon. member tor Taieri, and was astonished to hear that gentleman say that he should be glad to get rid of Sir Julius Vogel in consequence of the latter’s great extravagance— astonished because these and other statements showed that in the opinions of others he was not possessed of the qualifications necessary to the correct performance of the duties of Agent-General. He (the speaker) though undesirous of making unpleasant assertions, was: convinced, and must state his conviction, that the member for Wanganui had made a bargain with the present Ministry before that Ministry was formed. The speaker proceeded to speak powerfully in opposition to the appointment, saying that the hon. gentleman deserved nothing at the hands of the country. He had received already every consideration, and more than was accorded to the Prime Minister of England. He had no claim actually to the eulogiums passed upon him by some of bis ardent admirers and colleagues. They had heard a great deal of the prosperous condition to which the country had been brought by the talent of the hon. gentleman; but the state of the country was in reality this, that a very large sum of money had been borrowed, and which had not been borrowed on the credit of the late Premier, but on the credit of the country, which had been made great, prosperous, and wealthy by the institutions which the hon. gentleman and his supporters had done their best to destroy. Mr. Rees then said a good deal more, and repeated much of what he had previously said iu advance of his line of argument. No other Minister had ever been put in the . position of the late. Premier in the colony of New Zealand. If "there was one man who more than another ought to have stayed in and done his best:for this colony, it was the hon. member, for" Wanganui, who in New Zealand had risen, from obscurity to colonial fame. -

Mr. ROWE would not .have addressed the House on this occasion but for the remarks of the member for City East, who had stated that certain : members had been bribed into voting! in a given direction. : He believed Sir Julius Vogel to be the best man, under tho circumstances to hold the office of AgentGeneral. He thought it was necessary that the person who held that office should be thoroughly acquainted with the public affairs of the colony, and the hon. member for Wanganui had given ample evidence that he possessed the qualifications! calculated to fit him for the office. He (the speaker) had no fear of the hon. gentleman being extravagant, and should vote that Sir Julius: Vogel become Agent-General. ! The Hon. Major ATKINSON said he should confine himself to the general question properly under the consideration of the House. Matters totally irrelevant- to that question had been introduced, and those he did not purpose to refer to. It was in accordance with a distinct pledge, that the announcement had been made as to the appointment of Sir Julius Vogel to the office of Agent-General. The Government did not believe the office could be done away,with without great loss to the colony; therefore, he thought they would be very foolishif, without due consideration, they attempted to do away with the office. As to the qualifications of Sir Julius Vogel for’ the office to which it was proposed to appoint him, he refuted the charges levelled against that gentleman by members; and stated furthermore,’ that never during Sir Julius Vogel’s residence in England had he set up his judgment against, that of the Government, He proceeded to defend the action of Sir Julius Vogel at Home, and-said that his. successful negotiation of loans alone entitled him to the gratitude of the country. The, Government were satisfied that they were appointing the best man for the purpose, and were quite, prepared to take the responsibility of making such appointment. Mr. MONTGOMERY opposed the appointment, saying that the reasons alleged by Sir Julius Vogel were not sufficient to excuse his resignation of office at the present juncture ; moreover, he thought past experience should bo sufficient to convince the .House that he was not really qualified for the position. He should vote for the resolution, and regretted very much the action the Ministry had taken. Mr. TAIAROA complained that the House was not getting on with the business on the Order Paper, and stated that he approved of the constitution of the new Ministry. He supported the appointment of Sir .Julius Vogel to the office of Agent-General for the colony. Dr. HODGKINSON opposed the appoint-ment,-seeing nothing in the late Premier .to fit him for the office. Sir GEORGE GREY thought the Government were bound in favor to carry out their pro-

raises of. the previous night, it being distinctly understood that tins motion was one upon the result of which ’ the' position of the Ministry entirely depended. He charged the Govern-' ment with obtaining their power by introducing fhe rotten borough system of England, and the Premier had obtained his seat on those benches in virtue, of the same infamous , arrangement. It. was . perfectly evident : to’ the unprejudiced that the Opposition more fairly represented the desires of the people. The whole of the vast expenditure of the Agent-General’s office was totally unnecessary, and they had a right to insist that a reduction in the expenditure should. be made. He then referred to the criticism on Mr. Wood’s statement with regard ;to the confiscated lands, saying that the difference in that gentleman’s estimate and the one given by the Government was occasioned by the giving of large tracts of country to single individuals. With regard to the appointment of Sir Julius Vogel as AgentGeneral he wished to say a few words, and to beas : temperate as possible’ under the circumstances. . His opinion was, and he believed it was the opinion of the majority of the House and the country, that one who had been peculiar for such reckless extravagance, imprudence, and utter disregard of the public interest, should not be appointed to an office of a character so important. Mrl WHITAKER said the hon, gentleman; who had just sat down, had directed his attention .to matters totally irrelevant to the question they had to consider. He should have been glad to see a direct issue put, viz,, a vote of want of confidence. The business of the country was being neglected utterly in consequence of a variety ’of questions being raised on a direct! question. The subject of Sir Julius Vogel’s appointment should not have been brought before the House for discussion. The appointment should have been first made, and then the, matter could have been brought before the House, when a vote of want of confidence could be moved, and a direct issue be theh placed before the House. He should be very glad to see that that mode of dealing with the question was started. He was quite prepared to take his share of the responsibility of the appointment, and should never for one have sanctioned it had he not considered Sir Julius Vogel thebestmanfortheoffice. The appointment was not to be made without certain restrictions. , He (the speaker) was desirous that the appointment should be in the first instance for twelve months, during which time certain reductions should be made in the expenditure connected with the office.

Mr. STEVENS having spoken against the appointment of Sir Julius Vogel, Mr. ANDREW replied briefly, when “ the previous question" was declared carried on the voices. A division was called for, and taken, with the result : —For the Government, 41 ; against, 24. The following is the division list : Ayes, 24. Andrew Montgomery Thomson Baigent O'Rorke Tole Burns Fees (teller) Tonks De Lautour Rolleston Wakefield Dignan Seaton Wason Fisher Sharp Wood, R. G. Fitzroy Stevens (teller) Grey Swanson Wood, W. Joyce Noes, 41, Atkinson Harper Pearce Ballance .Henry Pyke Barff Hunter Reid, D. Bastings Hursthouse Richmond Bowen Kelly (teller) Rowe Brown, J. £. Kennedy Russell Brown, J. C. Kenny Shrimaki Bryce Lumsden Stafford Bjinny Macfarlane Stout (teller) Button McLean, Sir D. Tawiti Carrington McLean, G. Tribe Cox Moorhouse Whitaker Douglas Murray-Aynsley Woolcock Gibbs Ormond The House adjourned at 1,18 a.m.