PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4819, 1 September 1876, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thcrsday, Augdst 31. The Council met at 7.30. MOTIONS. The Hon. Captain FRASER moved, and it was carried, —That the name of Wi Tako Ngatata be added to the Public Petitions Committee. A motion of which the Hon. Dr. POLLEN had given notice, namely, for leave to introduce the Public Works Bill, was postponed, owing to that gentleman having been absent when the motion should have been brought on. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said : I will now make the statement which the Council naturally expect me to make in fulfilment of the promite I made on the laat occasion of the Council meeting. The statement I have to make is as follows:—His Excellency the Governor, as intimated on the last occasion, sent for my colleague the Hon. Major Atkinson and requested him to form a new Ministry. He (Major Atkinson) immediately placed himself in communication with _Mr. Whitaker, who consented to assist him in the work of forming a Government, on the condition that the Government to be so formed by them was, in fact, a new Government, who should be unembarrassed by the acts or promises of their predecessors, except as to the leading features of the policy maintained by that Government, and which had obtained the approval of the. General Assembly. The gentlemen whom I shall name presently, sir, have agreed to accept office as members of the Executive. The portfolios to bo held respectively by each of those gentlemen have not yet been finally decided on, except to this extent : that Major Atkinson will take the position of Premier, with the office of Colonial Treasurer; and that Mr. Whitaker will take the office of AttorneyGeneral, with the understanding that he will not be required to reside constantly at the seat of Government, but that he shall be permitted to conduct the business of the Government in Auckland. The names of the gentlemen, sir, who have consented to take office as members of the Executive are—Major Atkinson, Mr. Whitaker, Sir Donald McLean, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Bowen, Mi. George McLean, Mr. Ormond, the Hon. Mr. Hall, and myself. It is understood that some of these gentlemen will not hold office longer than the present session, but before that closes hon. members will be in possession of full information upoa that subject. It is now proposed, in the usual course, to ask the Council to _ adjourn until half-past seven on Monday evening next, when further information will bo communicated to the Council, and a statement will be made as to the line of policy which the Government propose to pursue. I will now move that the Council do adjourn until Monday next at halfpast seveu o'clock. Tho Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE felt that they were placed in a somewhat difficult position by the statement just made by the Colonial Secretary, He had told them that a ne\y Government was practically formed, although he was not a 8 yet in aj position to state

what the policy of that Government was to be, but trusted that by Monday next their consultations would have proceeded to such an extent that he should then be able to announce what that policy was to be. He (the speaker) took exception—and he took exception at the Very earliest possible time—to one statement made by his hon. friend, which was to this effect, that this Government would enteroffice as a new Government, uncompromised by the acts or promises of their predecessors. In the ordinary acceptation of the term, this was not .a new Government, but simply a reorganisation of the old Ministry, brought about by the resignation of the late Premier; and such being the case, he contended that the new Government had no right to claim that they took office uncompromised _by the acts or promises of their predecessors. When the question of the policy of the Government was before them, however, they would have an opportunity of discussing it on its merits. He would not, therefore, refer to that specially now. But he could not refrain from taking advantage. of the. opportunity afforded of referring to the circumstance whichhad brought about the Ministerial changes, and had he been present on the previous day he should then have offered the remarks which he purposed making now. They had been told that the change had been necessitated owing to the Ministry having decided that it was desirable the office of Agent-General should be filled by the late Premier, Sir Julius Vogel. He regretted that at this crisis in the history of the colony Sir Julius Vogel should havefelt that he could, consistently with hia duty, resign the high position he had held in that Ministry, and that the Ministry should consent to his so doing. One of the causes alleged for that resignation was stated to be the failing health of Sir Julius Vogel. Certainly they must all regret that circumstance, and he was free to admit that under ordinary circumstances such a plea would be ample justification for his or any other member's resigning his position in political life. But they were not living in ordinary times. The position of Sir Julius Vogel was one of no ordinary character, and the plea which would be justifiable and proper in another case was, hemaintained, neither justifiable nor proper under existing circumstances. They must remember 'that the colony, at the instigation of Sir Julius Vogel, had entered upon a policy that by its boldj ness had raised the apprehensions of all. That policy was now being developed. That policy | had arrived at a period when the basis upon which it rested was to be tried. It was now at the critical period of its existence, and it was at this period that the author of that policy prsposed to 'withdraw from the scene of his labors and leave us to work out that policy which he himself had established. He could not but feel, and he believed every hon. member would agree with him, that the political and financial condition of the colony was at the present time in the most unsatisfactory condition. They had, under the instigation of Sir Julius Vogel, destroyed a Constitution under which they had lived, and had fitted up nothing to take the place of that which they had destroyed. They had now arrived likewise at a period in the history of their finance when they should be called upon to demonstrate the clearness of the calculations upon which they had been induced to enter upon the bold policy he had referred to. The condition of the colony was, in fact, at the present mement anything but satisfactory, and under these circumstances —after Sir Julius Vogel had received all the kudos of being the controller of millions of money—it was now that he withdrew from the scene of his labors, and left them to experience the consequences of a policy in which they had, at his instigation, involved themselves. He now sought to relieve himself of the responsibility by shirking his duty—by deserting the ranks of the Ministry of which he was head in order to take office under the Government as AgentGeneral. As to this particular question he wished to express his opinion that one of the last men fitted by his antecedents to occupy the office of Agent-General was Str Julius Vogel. When he said that the hon. gentleman was one of the last men who should be appointed to that position, he said so because he considered that an office which had attached to it the control of enormous sums of public money should be administered by a man of aeI knowledged prudence, and whose public conduct had been characterised by the observance of the strictest principles of economy ; and no person who had watched the career of Sir Julius Vogel would agree that he had shown himself possessed of Buch qualities. Mr. Waterhouse then went on to refer to Sir Julius Vogel's drawing £4OOO when at Home, and referred the Council to parliamentary papers. He stated that that sum had been drawn at a time prior to Sir Julius Vogel having accounted for a previous advance of j£2ooo. The last advance was made in May, 1875, and it was in May, 1875, that Sir Julius Vogel sent in his resignation to his colleagues per telegraph ; and he (the speaker) believed that the £4OOO was drawn just after the resignation had been sent in. But even if it were not so, the effect was just the same, for he knew that he was about to forward his resignation to the colony at the very time that he took this further sum of £4OOO. He regretted extremely the action which had been taken by the Ministry, and had spoken as he had spoken because he considered that it would have been improper for that branch of the Legislature to permit such a matter to pass without comment. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE said a large sum of money, some £9OOO, had been expended in connection with the Native Lands Purchase department, and he thought that the late Ministry should give some explanation of the manner in which that money had been expended before retiring from office, a proceeding which, it seemed, was taken simply to suit the convenience of one member, namely, the Premier.

The Hob. Mr. HALL then rose, and referred to the speech of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, to parts of which he took exception. He said that gentleman's remarks might bo. divided into two parts—that which referred to the conduct of Sir Julius Vogel and his appointment to the office of Agent-General, and that which referred to the position of the new Ministry. In regard to the remarks about Sir Julius Vogel, he considered they wer« made at an inconvenient time, and in an unusual manner. He should only touch upon the remarks which the hon. member had been pleased to make with regard to the newMinistry, of which, as Dr. Pollen had told them, he (the speaker) had consented to become a member. Mr. Waterhouse had ob* jected to the statement that this Government was a new Government, and said that it was only a reorganisation of the late Government. That was simply assertion, and was unsupported by any facts or any precedent. What were the facts in reality? Why they were these. The Government had been constituted, not by the leader of the former Government, but by Major Atkinßon, who was at liberty to go wherever he liked among the members of the Legislature to choose a Ministry. He had chosen three new members who were not at all responsible for the acts of the former Government, and he had chosen certain members of that Government; but he (the speaker) defied Mr. Waterhouse to prove by parliamentary precedent, reason, or common sense, that the Ministry spoken of could, as a whole, be held responsible for the acts of tho former Government. Mr. Waterhouse had also stated that the financial position of the colony was unsatisfactory, a statement which it would perhaps have been better to refrain from giving utterance to, considering that gentlemen were about entering on the task of improving that position, and discouragement at so early a period waa not at all calculated to give them confidence. The Hon. Colonel KENNY regarded the course adopted by the Government on the present occasion as unprecedented so far as his own experience was concerned. He never heard a statement made with regard to the resignation of a Ministry and the resumption of office by another in the terms used by the hon. the Colonial Secretary that night, the most extraordinary part of hia statement being that the Legislature was rnly to be informed at the end of the session exactly how tlie Ministry was constructed. Of this latter statement he should like an explanation,

The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in replying, stated that never before in his recollection had a discussion such as they had heard that night been raised on Buch an occasion. Referring to the point raised by Colonel Kenny, he pointed out that there was no departure from rule in the course it was proposed to pursue. It was the intention' of certain members of the Ministry to retire from the Ministry after the session; and further, the hon. gentleman nmst recollect that members of the Executive had represented the Government in the Council at the same time that they did not hold portfolios. With regard to the remarks Mr. Waterhouse had made, he said he was quite prepared to defend the policy of the late Government if that gentleman would refer to any particular part of that policy, but he did not feel called upon to reply to the statements which his hon. friend had thought proper to make on that occasion, further than to say that he had laid down a doctrine which was perfectly absurd, and taken up a position utterly untenable. He regarded the attack upon Sir Julius Vogel as being quite out of place. As to his retiring from the position, it was thought a question which they might fairly leave to the discretion of that gentleman. Such statements as those made by Mr. Waterhouse were but a poor reward for the exertions which Sir Julius Vogel had made, exertions that did not certainly benefit him individually, but which he was sure would be found to have benefited the colony to a very great extent indeed, and this he believed his hon. friend would be brought to acknowledge hereafter. He would conclude by moving the adjournment. . The Council then adjourned until half-past seven on Monday next.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, August 31. The Speaker took the chair at 7.30 p.m. PETITIONS AND NOTICES. Several petitions were presented and notices given. MESSAGE TROIT HIS EXCELLENCY. The Hon. Sir JULIUS VOGEL brought down a message from his Excellency the Governor, transmitting to the House of Representatives drafts of several Harbor Board Bills. The hon. gentleman moved that the House resolve itself into committee to consider the message. Mr. ROLLESTON objected to any such unconstitutional proceeding, and said such a step would act as a moat pernicious precedent. An announcement had been made the previous Friday that the Premier had tendered the resignation of the Ministry, yet notwithstanding such resignation his Excellency had been advised by theperson3who had ceased toholdoffice to transmit thU message to the House. The only thing the House could do under the circumstances was to defer the consideration of the message, and therefore he felt himself justified in moving that the consideration of the message be postponed for a week. Mr. STAFFORD remarked that it was a long time to postpone the measures, and thought the proposition amounted to discourtesy to his Excellency. He suggested that the motion be withdrawn.

Mr. STOUT said he hoped the hoD. member for Avon would press his amendment. By such a course consideration would be Bhown the House, the country, and even the Governor. It was exceedingly unfair in the midst of a Ministerial crisis for a dying Ministry to bring forward Bills in a manner which would bind its successors in office; such a course must embarrass the House and the new Ministry, unless some little arrangement had been come to between the outgoing and incoming Ministry, which could scarcely be credited. Why three Bills only had been brought down he could not discover, exeept it was on account of a little favoritism to particular districts. Sir JTTLItrS VOGEL said the only object he had in view in adopting the course which had been adopted was anxiety to place these Bills in a forward position, because to some extent the Government had been responsible for the delay which had occurred in respect to them. Only three had been brought down, but this was not owing to any favoritism. The fact was the others were not ready. It was hoped, however, that they would be ready in a day or two, and that all would Btand for second reading on "Wednesday. Mr. KOLIiESTON explained that the position he took up was, is the course proposed a constitutional and proper course? He contended it was not. He disclaimed any desire to treat his Excellency with discourtesy. Sir GEORGE GEE Y wished to ask a question. In what capacity had the hon. member brought down the message ? The other evening he had told the House distinctly that he had resigned the Premiership and was a candidate for a vacant office in the Civil Service.

Sir JULIUS VOGEL said he had brought the Bills down as Premier, and thought such a proceding very usual. Sometimes it was days, even weeks, before a new Ministry wa3 formed, *nd in the meantime ordinary routine business was transacted by the outgoing Ministry. Sir GEORGE GREY said he was quite unable to understand the position of affairs the hon; member sought to bring about. He trusted the House would accept the amendment. It was unconstitutional for the exPremier to advise his Excellency after another gentleman had been sent for. Mr. REID regretted that the Premier had taken the course he bad. How was the House to know that the hon. member was not impli«ated in the formation of a new Ministry? The whole thing was exceedingly peculiar. However, he would be sorry to see the Billa postponed for «o long a time, and he suggested to the hon. member for Avon to move for an adjournment till next sittingday only. Mr. ROLLESTON Baid he should be quite willing to accept the suggestion. Sir JULIUS VOGEL said if the hon. member would withdraw his motion, the Government would accept the suggestion and let the matter stand over.

Mr. ROLLESTON declined to do this, because it was necessary that there should be a precedent set to form a guide for the future. The Hon. Sir JULIUS VOGEL hinted that the hon. member was more anxious to have his name appear in the Journals of the House than to defend a principle.

Sir Geoboe Grey and Mr. Wakefield defended Mr. Rolleston's conduct. The latter speaker said the hon. member for Wanganui since the previous Friday had had no more right to advise his Excellency than any other hon. member.

The Hon. Major ATKINSON said there seemed to be a great deal of mi-apprehension on the subject. The hon. member for Wanganui was still Premier of the colony, under the usual rule that a Ministry held office until his Excellency had been pleased to relieve them of office. His Excellency had not been pleased to relieve Sir Julius Vogel of office, therefore that gentleman still was Premier.

Mr. READER WOOD said no doubt that the hon. member was technically correct, and that was all. The hon. member for Egmont was responsible to the House and to the country for administration, and the hon. member for .Wanganui should not have attempted to advise his Excellency. If he had so acted in small matters, what was to have prevented his doing so in regard to more important matters 1 The Houso was exceedingly disappointed; they had not come together for the purpose of discussing constitutional questions. They had assembled to hear a statement from Major Atkinson as to what had been done towards providing the country with a Ministry in place of that of the hon. member for Wanganui, which was happily soon to pass away. Mr. REE 3 supported the amendment.

Mr. MACANDREW said all would admit a blunder had been committed, but if the hon. member for Egmont would give the House an assurance that all these Harbor Bills should be placed on the same footing, that was all that was required. Mr. STAFFORD said it was scarcely fair to ask such an assurance from the Hon. Major Atkinson at the ■ present stage, when the House knew nothing as to the future ; and the hon. member was proceeding to speak to the amendment when

Mr. STOUT roue to a point of order. Tho hon. member had spoken before. Mr. STAFFORD said the hon. member was wrong.

- The SPEAKER said the hon. member for Timaru had spoken before; but as there had been great irregularity all through the debate, the hon. member might proceed. Mr. STAFFORD declined to speik on sufferance. Several other members having spoken to the question, an adjournment of the debate was suggested by Mr. Mubray-Aynsley, and agreed to.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. The Hon. Major ATKINSON then rose and said : Sir, —I regret lam unable to make to the House that definite statement which, when the House last adjourned, I had hoped I should be able to make to-night. I have, however, with the assistance of the hon. member for Waikato, obtained the consent of a number of gentlemen who are ready to form a Government with me, and to-morrow I hope to submit their names to his Excellency for his approval. The following gentlemen have agreed to act with me:—Mr.Whitaker, Sir Donald McLean, Dr. Pollen, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Bowen, Mr. Ormond, Mr. Hall, and Mr. George McLean. I beg now to move that the House do adjourn till Monday evening at half-past seven, when I shall make a statement of the policy of the Government, and the course they propose to pursue in reference to public business. Mr. MANDERS hoped when the Government were considering their policy they would not lose sight of the question of a Payment of Members Bill. It had been referred to in his Excellency's speech, but nothing had as yet been proposed. Mr. WAKEFIELD considered a slight had been offered to his Excellency the Governor in the Premier having made a statement to the House as to the gentlemen who were to be associated with him before the Governor had been asked whether he would accept them for his advisers or not. The House then adjourned.