PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXXI, Issue 4813, 25 August 1876, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 24. : .The Hon. the Acmno-Speaker took tl chair at half-past two o'clock. . LAND TRANSFER ACT BILL. The report of the Waste Lands Committe on this measure was brought up. The Bi •was ordered to be committed on Tuesday. MOTIONS.. , . , . . The Hon. Mr. HALL moved,—That thet berlaid tipcra'tho table a statement of the r< ceipts and expenditure of the several province of-New Zealand, for the year ended 31st De cember, 1875, in the same form as the return on this subject presented to Parliament dowi to the year 1873.—The motion was agreed to. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE moved,—Tha hef ihave leave to introduce a Bill intitule "An Act to enable a Provisional Agreetnen made between Thomas Renwick and the Super infendent of the province of Marlborough t bacarried out."—Agreed to. The Hon. Mr. G. K. JOHNSON moved,That leave of absence be [granted to the Hon Mr. Bonar for a fortnight from to-day, oi urgent private affairs.—Agreed to. WAREHOUSED GOODS BILL. This Bill was read a first time. Seconc reading on Tuesday next. " CANTERBURY SHEEP BILL. The adjourned dehate on the second reading of the Canterbury Sheep Ordinances Amendment Bill was resumed by the Hon. Dr. Pollen who, while not opposing the second reading, doubted whether legislation on the subject at the present time, was desirable. —The Hon. Dr. Menzies opposed the second reading.—The Hon. Mr. Robinson supported the measure at some length.—The Hon. Dr. Grace would support the/second reading—Tha Hon. Mr. Hall replied to the objections which had been urged. As evidence of his bona fides he would put the two principal opponents of the measure on the select committee to which he would propose that the Bill should be referred. The second reading was carried on a division by 14 to 3. Mr. Hall then moved that the. Bill should be referred to a select committee, which was agreed to. , :.,.•• PUBLIC HEALTH ACT. This Bill was further considered in committee. Clauses 40 and 41 were, agreed, to, and clause. 42 struck out. Clauses 43 to 46 inclusive were agreed to without amendment, and-47-waa amended and agreed to. Clause 481 .to 55. were passed, and clause 56 postponed. Clauses 57 to 101 were agreed to, 102 struckout, and 103 amended by striking out all the wordsafter "daytime" and substituting "yellow quarantine flag of the International Code of Signals." • The Bill was proceeded with to the 112th' clause. which was amended in accordance with 103. Progress was reported when the committee had reached the 132nd clauses. Leave was obtained to sit again next day. 5 •'*'.■■'"•' • MASTERTON AND QREYTOWN LANDS BILL. This Bill was committed.' The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved the 1 insertion of a new clause (the text of

which has' been given in a iate issue of this paper).; r f The new clause wa3 agreed to, and the Bill* 1 passed through committee without further amendment. Third reading next day. The Council then (5.15 p.m.) adjourned. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. .: Thursday, August 24. >. ; The Speakeb took-the chair at half-past two o'clock. PETITIONS AND NOTICES OF MOTION. Several petitions were presented and notices of motion given. QUESTIONS. Mr. DIGNAN asked the Secretary for CrownJLands,—Whether rewards, of £IO,OOO, offered- by the General Government in 1873 for the discovery of new goldfields, may be regarded as still in force ? If not, whether the Government intend to repeat the offer of rewards to the discoverers of new fields 1 The Hon. Maj6r ATKINSON said the rewards were not in force, and the Government did not propose to renew. Mr. BURNS asked the Minister for Public Works,—!. If any inquiry is being made into the circumstances attending the fall of the Brunner Gorge railway bridge ? 2. Who is conducting the inquiry on behalf of the Government ? 3. When a report is likely to be forthcoming, and if r the report, with the evidence, will be laid before this House ? ' The-Hon._Mr_BICIIAIIDSON.said an inquiry wa3 being made by the two Commissioners, of Audit,;who ; were taking very full evidence. The inquiry would be concluded in a few days, and the result and evidence would be laid before the House. Mr. SEATON asked the Government,—lf they will lay before this House a return showing the amount paid annually to the Wellington Gas Company since its commencement, specifying the respective buildings in respect of which such amount has been paid ? The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said there would be no objection to furnishing the return required. NEW BILLS., The following Bill3 were introduced and read a first time :—By. Mr. Stout—A Bill to amend the Dunedin Waterworks Extension Act, 1875.—8 y Mr. Macandeew—A Bill to provide for Exchanging Reserves in Dunedin. , RESOLUTIONS. Mr. SHEEHAN moved,—That the correspondence laid on the table having reference to the; refusal to permit Samuel Locke, Esq., R.M., Napier, to leave his office to witness native deeds, be printed.—Carried.' Mr. STOUT moved,—That the memorial from runholders, bankers, merchants, and others, in the province of Canterbury, referring to pastoral licenses, laid before the House, be printed.—Carried. Mr. liTJMS'DEN moved, —That in compiling the next census tables supplying the agricultural statistics of the colony, it is desirable that there should be shown under the heading "holdings," in separate columns, the freehold and leasehold holdings respectively.—Carried. Mr. MURRAY moved,—That a return be laid before this House showing the total cost of the - railway from Dunedin to the Clutha ; also, how much has been expended by the Provincial Government of Otago upon rolling stock, additions, and improvements.—Carried. Mr. MURRAY moved—That a return be prepared and laid before this House, showing the amounts actually received, in comparison with the Colonial Treasurer's estimated receipts, as shown ia the Appendix to the Journals,: 1875.—Carried. Mr.'KELLY moved, —That the quorum of the Public Petitions Committee be reduced to three.—After a discussion the motion was lost on the voicea. Mr. BRYCE moved,—That _ this House doth concur in the recommendation contained in the'general report of the Native Affairs Committee brought on up the 23rd August, 1876.—Carried. J ... .

Mr. MURRAY moved, —For a return showing the amount of current liabilities incurred under the Immigration and Public Works Acts, which must be met before the Ist of January, 1877.—Carried. The interrupted debate on the question,— That this,House considers that the provision proposed to be made fer roads and works in the districts north of Auckland is entirely inadequate to meet the requirements and necessitiea.of those districts, and very much smaller than the share to which those districts are fairly entitled, regard being had to area, populition and contributions to revenue, —was resumed, and subsequently farther adjourned, not being finished when the Speaker left the chiir at half-past five o'clock. ■'. WASOANOI ENDOWED SCHOOLS BILL. Mr. BRYCE moved the second reading of the Kll, which provided for the vesting in a board certain land which six years ago was grantel to the Bishop of New Zealand for cducatUnal purposes. The original intention of the giant apparently had not'been carried out, and this Bill proposed to establish a school for all d.nominations. The hon. member explained tie wholo circumstances of the case at great lough, read correspondence which had passed betveen Sir Julius Vogcl and himself on the one »ide, and Bishop Hadfield on the

other side, in which the latter had objected t . the proposed change in the land, on the groun that a great principle was at stake, and if th Legislature passed the Bill no trust would b safe. Mr. Bryce contended the original trus . had not and could not be carried out, and wer such a course proposed, no doubt the buprem Court could upset the trust. However, the; did not wish to.'do that; they wished to see tn ? property devoted to educational purposes, am 1 not to be eaten up in law expenses, and h therefore hoped the Bill would pass. Mr. ROLLESTON opposed the seconc 3 reading on the ground that it was improper t( ■ interfere with the original trust. If the Bit ' were passed no trust would be safe, no Crowi ■ grant would be safe, and a most dangerous » precedent would be set, i Sir GEORGE GREY, in speaking to the Bill, referred to the peculiar form in which ; the Crown grant was issued, and said at the I time the Crown grant was issued he was : Governor, not only of New Zealand, but also ■ of many islands in the Pacific, and he men- ' tioned that at that time he had had overtures from the Fijis and New Hebrides to be ■ annexed. The plan which at the time occupied his mind was to Christianise the islands of the Paci6c, and in accordance with that plan he had made a number of grants of land to religious bodies, which had been made for the purpose of erecting schools thereon, the purpose being to bring children to New Zealand to be educated. The grant was one of those. He did hope there .would be no change in the grant, because he thought the purpose with which the grant bad been made might still be carried out, for only a short time since he had received a communication from the Fiji Government asking if there were any such places to which young chiefs might be sent. If these grants were to be reconsidered, let them be reconsidered as a whole, and not dealt with piecemeal. Ha thought that there should be a large grammar school at Wangamii, and that generally there should be such large schools all over the colony. Although in favor of a scheme for secular education for the whole colony, still he recognised that if the Christian religion were to be kept up it was necessary to have Christian teachers, and these should be educated in the colony. Sir JULIUS VOGEL said the Government would support the Bill, and as that support had been promised on condition that the Bill should be sent to a select committee, he should not discuss it on the merits of the J case. As to -what Sir George Grey had said in regard to the. original intention of the I trust, that might be all very true, but the

question was, had the intention been carried out ? He contended it had not, and on legal grounds the grant should be upset. However, they did hot wish to do that ; they wished to deal with the matter on it3.broadest basis, and make use of the endowment for purposes as near as possible to the original intention. The Church of England would have a preponderating influence upon the Board, and 'if the < Board were established the endowment would be devoted to edu- ' cational purposes. The land comprised half the town of WaDganui, and on public grounds it should be utilised, and not allowed to lie useless. It was the duty of the House to see that trusts were properly fulfilled, and he considered the hon. member (Mr. Bryce) deserved every credit for braving a little odium in his desire to do what was just to all parties. Mr. STOUT, in speaking to the Bill, said he felt very strongly on theeducation question, and believed that the State should provide purely secular education. He said if the Bill were read a second time he should ask the House to refer it to a committee of selection, to determine whether it was not a private Bill. Mr. BRANDON considered the Bill a private' Bill, and the parties, interested should have had an opportunity of replying to the imputations cast upon them by the preamble, which set forth that the original trusts had been broken. Mr. MACANDEEW said he should vote against the Bill, for he considered a very dangerous principle would be established if it were passed. It cast a very serious reflection upon the trustees, without allowing them an opportunity of replying. Mr. BALLANCE said it had been assumed that this property was the private property of the Church of England; but this was a wrong idea, as would be seen by a glance at the Crown grant. Did: any one suppose that 250 acres in the town of Wanganui would be given to a private body for private purposes? As a fact, it was given for public purposes; but the purposes for which it had been given had not been carried out. Litigation would lead to the swallowing up of the property, therefore thty came to • the supreme tribunal of the colony and asked it to remedy a great wrong. As to the trustees no reflection was intended to. be cast, upon them,'but he would say .this, that gentleman living 120 miles away from the trust were not the proper persons to have a trust. It was managed by a commission agent, and badly managed it was. The matter had been considered for a long time, and the present action was based upon the reports which had been made. The matter would be taken before the select committee and all the facts would come out, and on these facts they would ask the House to pass the Bill and redress this great public wrong. Mr. BURNS [moved the adjournment of the debate, with a view to the Bill going before the select committee prior to the second reading. , • , . Mr. BRYCE saw no objection to this courae.

Mr. REID thought it "useless to postpone the debate. The committee could take evidence and bring up its report after the second reading, and the House might then determine whether they would go further. Sir JULIO'S VOGEL opposed the adjournment as being unnecessary. _ Messrs. Montgomery, Bryce, Williams, Hunter, and Murray having spoken to_ the adjournment, the amendment was negatived. Mr. WHITAKER, speaking to the. main question, said the House was on dangerous ground, and it should be be very careful how it interfered with the trust. Nothing was so sacred a 3 these trusts, and the House if it took the course proposed would assume the, peculiar rights of the Supreme Court, an appeal to whioh authority would cause slight expense. Mr. REID contended that the trusts could not be carried out, and had not been carried out, and it was the House who reviewed the trust. Sentimental idea should be swept away and the matter dealt with on its merits. Mr. BUTTON would vote for the second reading of the Bill. The House was in fact the representative of the author of the trust, and had therefore a perfect right to see that its provisions were carried out. Mr. HURSTHOUSE bore testimony to the judicious manner in which a similar trust had been administered in Nelson, and Would support the second reading of the Bill in order that it might-be considered by a select committee.

Mr. TRIBE had been convinced by the arguments he had heard, and would support the second reading of the Bill, which he might say was brought in in the interests and by the desire of every inhabitant of Wanganui. Mr. ROLLESTON said that every possible effort had been made under the greatest disadvantages to utilise the trust for the objects for which it had been created.

Mr. HUNTER objected to the jurisdiction of the Court now appealed to. The question should go before a Judge of the Supreme Court and a jury. As a trustee, ho felt like a criminal arraigned for trial, and therefore desired to be tried by a proper tribunal. He pointed out that the words in the original grant were "for our subjects of all races," whereas in the schedule attached to the Bill these words were omitted, which cast a different complexion on the mannor in which the trust had been administered to that ascribed to it by some speakers. Mr. Hunter explained how the trust land, though given as suburban land, had been originally town land. Whilst he would not contend that he and the other trustees had been perfection, ho maintained that they had done fairly by the trust. From 1865 to the present time a good and efficient school had been maintained out of the trust funds, i and in addition Maori boys had been fed,

clothed; and educated in Wellington. No evidence had been adduced to justify the' charges made against the trustees, or to show that they had not been faithful to the .trust repOßed in them. ...'..-

Sir JULIUS VOGEL thought'that if the question went to law it would not end until it got to the Privy Council. He assured the House that if Mr. Hunter were a resident of Wanganui he would be the first to support such a Bill as the present. He cited the case of the Irish Church and the English endowed schools to show how the British Parliament had not hesitated to deal with such matters, and to remove trusts and dissolve corporations. He quoted a passage from Lord Romilly tojustify the interference of the State when a church or corporation acted as a bad trustee.

Mr. CAERINGTON spoke against the second reading. Mr. BRYCE replied.

The House divided, when the amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months was carried by a majority of 11.

The voting was 29 to 18. The House adjourned at 12.57 a.m.