PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4541, 9 October 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, October 8.

The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at twoo'clock.

Some, formal business, having been disThe Hon. Colonel KENNY gave notice that he would- move onTuesday, that with a view to the settlement of matters in connection with the Piako Land Exchange BUI, it is, in the opinion of the Council, expedient that the Bill be withdrawn by the Government, and that they afford Mr. Whitaker every facility to arrange for the survey of the land awarded to him by the commisioner. , BILLS INTRODUCED. . The fpllowingißUls. were introduced by the Hon. Dr. Pollen, and read a first time : —An Act to Authorise the Governor to Grant to the Auckland Harbor Board certain Lands, being part of the soil of the Harbor of Auckland, an Act to Enable a Crown Grant to be made to the Bishop of Auckland of a piece of Land at Waiuku. The Hon. Mr. TAYLOK moved for leave of absence for the remainder of the session. He took this step in consequence of the report brought up by the Disqualification Committee. It appeared to him that; one of two alternatives .was open to him. One of them was that he should disembarrass himself from all connection,with those transactions with which his name had been associated," the other was, that he ought, perhaps, to resign his seat in that Council, as he felt he should not care- to hold his seat under the disabilities arising out of the transactions to which reference had been made some, time back. If he were desirous of carrying out the first alternative, it could only done by his holding a conference with all the other parties with whom he was associated. As to the other .course, .he. did not .think it would be desirable to act hurriedly in resigning, as he had been many years a member of the Council, and regarded it as an honor which he ought not lightly to give up. (Hear.) He therefore desired to take time for consideration, the more so as he saw a notice had been given to take action in .reference to this matter. He therefore asked for leave of absence, in order that he-might take the necessary steps to put himself in the position he would desire to occupy under the circumstances. : - BILLS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed : —Railway Companies Bill, Friendly Societies' Act Amendment Bill, Evidence Further Amendment Bill, Abolition of Provinces BUI, Bills of Sale Bill, Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Act Amendment Bill, New Zealand Presbyterian Church Act 1875 Amendment Bill, Westport Municipal Reserves Bill.

The following Bills were ordered to be read a third time on Tuesday next : —Municipal .Corporations Act Amendment Bill, Oainaru. Town Hall and Gasworks Site and Recreation Reserves Bill, and Evidence Further Amendment Bill. riAKO LAND EXCHANGE BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved that this Bill be further considered in committee on Wednesday next. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON said he should not be in attendance at the Council on Wednesday, and after ; and as he felt a burning desire.'to be_present.at the death of this measure, he hoped the hon. the Premier would fix its consideration for an earlier date. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN had no objection to indulge his friend's desire to participate in the sport he anticipated, and consented to the the Bill being made an order of the day for Tuesday next. LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BILL. In committee on the Licensing Act Amendment Bill considerable discussion took place. Eventually its further consideration was postponed until Wednesday.., The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE proposed certain amendments which the Council might consider in the interim. " At 4 o'clock the Council adjourned until the usual hour on Tuesday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, October 8. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o'clock. NOTICES OF MOTIONS, &C. Several notices of motions were given, and petitions, papers, and reports presented. QUESTIONS. In answer to questions, the Government said that provision would not be made in the supplementary estimates to meet the expense of sending representatives to compete at the great rifle international match, open to the world, proposed to be held next year in Philadelphia during the time of the exhibition there._ The expense would, it was found on inquiry, be very great—That the lease of the Kawakawa railway provided for the carrying of public traffic.

BLLLS INTRODUCED. By Major Atkinson, a Bill to amend the Disqualification Act. By Sir Donald McLean, Equitable Interests Compensation Bill. By the same, Waiuku Native Grants BUI.

ORDERS OF THE DAY. The adjourned debate was resumed on the question,—That this House approves of and ratißes the joint contract intered into on the 23rd July, 1575, by Sir D. Cooper Bart., and Mr Thomas Eussell, on behalf of the Governments of New South Wales and New Zealand, respectively, with the Pacific Mail Steamship Company, of New York (for whom Messrs. Elder and Co., of Glasgow, and Mr. Macgregor.M.P. for Leith, are sureties), for a fourweekly mail steam service between San Francisco and Sydney, and between New Zealand and San Francisco. The following amendment was proposed thereto by Mr. Murray,—That the San Francisco mail service being advantageous to the citizens of the United States as well as to British colonists in Australasia, a fair proportion of the subsidy for such service should be paid by the Government of the United States.

The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD moved an amendment,—That the contract should be ratified, subject to such an agreement beingentered into as would keep the subsidy paid by New Zealand down to £IO,OOO. He believed that the colony could get all it wanted for that sum. -He would not let commercial interests be taken ■4nto consideration. It was not the place of "Pa-ljament to subsidise such interests. In the present conaitionoftheßnances,nomoneyshould be lavishly spent, and he could see no reason why the proposed extra £SOOO should be paid. His amendment left the Government unfettered in their arrangements with Mew South Wales. It was a matter for regret that the late Premier should, after the House had passed a resolution affirming £40,000 for the San Francisco mail service have authorised an agent to contract for £45,000. It was true that Sir Julius Vogel had reserved, the contract for the ratification of Parliament,, but his action was nevertheless to be regretted, .taken as it was in the face of a distinct resolution of the House. . Mr. MURRAY withdrew his amendment in favor of Mr. Stafford's. Mr. MACANDREW advocated the coastal service by the San Francisco boats for £49,000 a year, and quoted from a telegram from Dimedin to show that it would pay. If it could be accomplished in honor, he would be in favor of a mail line_ via the Strait of Magellan and South America; Mr. T. KELLY spoke to an amendment proposed by him, substituting an alternative route for that agreed upon by Mr. Russell, and terminated by withdrawing it. The Hon. Mr. BOWEN. said that the real question to consider was whether for an extra £SOOO a year the House would refuse to ratify the proposed contract, a contract under which great advantages would be gained, and in fact a present outlay of £2500 for coastal service as at present carried on would be saved. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT spoke in ' opposition to the ratification of the contract for an additional burden of £SOOO a year. He objected also to binding the colony to a service for so long a period as eight years. He asked the House to adhere to the terms of its resolution —a subsidy of £40,000 a year for six years, and not to go beyend those terms. '.- Messrs. Mubrat, Roiaeston, and Andrew supported Mr. Stafford's amendment.—Mr. Reid advocated a coastal service.—Mr. McGlashan supported the Government proposals. „',■", Sir DONALD McLEAN moved the adjournment of the debate in consequence of the number of amendments proposed, in order to give the Government an opportunity of considering the question as it was now presented. The debate was accordingly adjourned until , -Monday. The second reading of the Immigration Mid Public Works'.Acts Amendment Bill , was "moved by the Hon. Mr. Richardson.—Messrs. ' Retd, T._ Kelly, O'Conob, Mubrat, and "Shephard having spoken, and the mover* of the second reading having replied, the second reading of the Bill was' carried on the voices, and its committal was ordered for Monday.

The House went-into committee for the further consideration of the Stamp Duties Bill, which was reported with additional amendments... ~ ,

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE AND MR. BRIDGES. Mr. READER WOOD stated that he had been instructed by. the Public Accounts Committee to report to the House a resolution they had come to upon a question connected with their inquiry. He was directed to report the evidence given by Mr. Bridges, of the National Bank, and to inform the House that he had refused to answer any further questions, and at 'the; same/ time had made grave imputations affecting the character of certain members of the Legislature. The committee hoped that the House would prosecute the inquiry. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said; the report'read by the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee was considered by the Government to be a matter of such great public importance that, after having carefully considered the matter, they had determined to ask the House to order Mr. Bridges, manager of the National Bank of New Zealand, td attend before the bar of the House at three o'clock on Monday, in order that the enquiry might be continue! It was quite impossible, in the opinion of the committee and the Government, that the matter should be allowed to rest where it was. Therefore, he had to move that Mr. Bridges be ordered to attend at the time and hour above stated. Carried. OTHER BILLS. The New Zealand University Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. The Government Apprentices Bill passed through committee and all its stages. The Immigration and Public Works Appropriation Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed on Monday. EEFRESENrATIOS BILL. Mr. ROLLESTON having made a few remarks as to the representation of minorities; The Hon. Mr. BOWEN replied. The Bill was then read a: second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. SUPPLY RESOLUTIONS. Resolutions reported from Committee of Supply were read a second time. NATIVE LANDS PURCHASE DEPARTMENT. Onthemotion to go into Committee of Supply, Sir GEORGE GREY brought forward a resolution with reference to the acquisition of native lands, which he hoped the House would permit him to divide it into two parts, because the first part might at once meet with approval, and discussion would therefore be saved. Having'that permission, he proposed that the first resolution should take this form : " That the purchase or leasing of native lands, directly or indirectly, to their own interest or advantage, or for other persons, by Government officers or agents whose duty it i 3 to purchase native lands for the public, is contrary to the public interest." He did not intend fcTdetaih the House for any length of time. It would be known to the House that the officersof the GovernmeDthad had placed in their possession large public funds for the purpose of- acquiring - lands for the public ; they also had a certain status given them in the country from their position in the Government service, which must give them large influence with the native population. In addiction to that, "they possessed extraordinary means of collecting information, which gave them great - advantage over others in the acquisition of native lands. It must be conceded that these gentlemen had no right to purchase these lands either for themselves or for other persons. No agent acting for a private person would dare, if he were employed to purchase land for his principal, to purchase landed estate for himself or any other person. Snch an act would not be recognised by law ; and if such was the case as regarded private transactions.it was clearly of greater importance that such a rule should be observed in reference to public purchases of land. Indeed, the effect of the first resolution was so obvious that he would conteDt himself by moving it. The Becond resolution was to this effect, " That it is desirable that the Government should during the recess prepare a Bill enacting that all such lands so purchased or leased since the date of the passing of the Immigration and Public Works Act, shall be taken and deemed to be part of the public estate, and that the colony refund to such purchasers all sums proved to have been actually expended by them in the purchase of such lands." He believed that the public generally had misunderstood this question. What he asked the House to do in this case was (simply to confirm the law. He asked them to do nothing to which honest objection could be raised. He simply asked them to say that that which was the law of the land must be observed. He would, with the permission of the House, read some legal opinions touching upon the subject. [Sir George proceeded to quote from Story, St. Leonards, and Eldon.j Those opinions were in perfect accord with the resolutions he had just placed before the House. Now, with regard to the nature of the agency of these individuals. There could be no doubt, in the first place, as to the character of the office held by the. Native Minister himself—that he was an agent employed by the people to purchase lands for them. He held the high office of a Minister of the Crown in this

colony, charged especially with the welfare of the Native department, but charged also publicly with the interest of the public at large. For the purpose of enabling him to discharge his duties large sums of money were placed under his control. He had also entrusted to him powers over the confiscated lands, and powers over the expenditure of sums acquired from the sale of those lands. Then, as Defence Minister he had further control and. power, and the assistance of paid agents who could give him the most accurate information with respect to the lands of the colony, their nature, value, and extent, as well as with respect to the feelings of the natives. Then, for the acquirement of a landed estate for the North Island £700,000 was granted/ He believed that no part of that expenditure had been regularly audited or accounted for. The Native Minister was to all intents . and purposes chief of the Land Purchase department of this colony ; "therefore, any land purchased by him must be regarded as the property of the public of New Zealand. Sir DONALD M'LEAN replied. _ With reference to the first resolution) he might state; that it inclined in the direction of the principle which the Government intended to carry out ;• and he might also state, in reference to the ; land purchase system, that the Government had found it necessary to adopt the course they had with reference to native lands. But some of the land purchases! had not been completed, and it was the intention of the Government before that not to proceed with any purchases on a large scale until they were completed; and he thought it would not be necessary to make any extensive purchases for one or two years to come. He quite agreed that officers employed to purchase lands for the Crown should not be permitted to purchase for themselves or any third party ; and that principle was one upon which the Government intended to insist. With reference to the second resolution of the member for City West, he could only say that the proposal he had made was one which ran in the direction of general confiscation. As to the remarks of Sir George Grey which had taken a personal form, he must say that he saw no reason why a person should not acquire lands, as he (the speaker) had done from the Crown, that was, under Crown grant;. and he failed to see what there was in that to which the hon. gentleman could take exception. Had he gone into, the native districts and acquired land which had not passed through the ordeal of a court of enquiry, then he was prepared to admit it ■would not have been the correct course to pursue.; but. when the land had passed through the Native Lands Court the case was altered. . He would state in conclusion that it was not the intention of the Government to push on any additional purchases' during the year; but they, intended to make 'considerable reductions in the staff of agents which had hitherto been in their employ. Up to the present time there had been an absolute necesity for the employment of these agencies,' inasmuch as they had .'to" meet the circumstances ~as they arose, and ' the circumstances had been such as to have removed - the cause. The Government had" taken the only course which would* have carried out the wishes of that Assembly, 'as expressed on a previous occasion, namely," the acquirement of a territorial estate; for the North : Island.. As to the remarks of the hon. member with regard to certain large sums of money not having been audited or accounted for, he might state that only one half of the £700,000 alluded to had been spent, and of that which had been -spent every item had been audited except £22,000. Messrs. Fitzherbert,-. Atkinson, Tribe, T. L. Shepherd, Sheehan, and Rolleston-folio wed. - On the question being put, a division'was taken, which resulted in the original motion, to go into Committee of Supply, being carried. ' ' COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House haying gone into committee, considerable progress was made with the Estimates, with little discussion ; but on arriving at the estimates for postal services, a division of opinion occurred, . and the item of £5000) for steam bommunication to Queensland) gave rise to a short debate. A division was taken on the question to erase the item, the result beingasfoUows":—Noes, 21 ; ayes, .15. : 1 The House then adjourned.' '