PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4538, 6 October 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday', October 5. ■ The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at two o’clock. Several notices of motion were given, one being by the Hon. Mr. Mantell, affirming the desirableness of the Government exercising scrupulous care in selecting laud agents. BILLS INTRODUCED. The Imbecile Passengers Act Amendment Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time next day. The Anatomy Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday. GOLDFIELDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The debate on the refusal of the House of Representatives to agree to the amendments made in the Goldfields Amendment Bid was resumed. The question was that the Council doth not insist upon its amendments. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES held that if the Bill became law in its present shape it would defraud the public revenue. After some further discussion. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved an amendment to the effect that, while the Council did not desire to interfere with the public revenue of the colony, it was strongly of opinion that it was necessary to make the compensation chargeable against the goldfields revenue of the province in which operations causing the pollution of the rivers might be carried on. A division was taken on the original motion, which was negatived. The amendment of Dr. Pollen was carried. DR. BUCHANAN AND CAPTAIN FRASER. Some discussion took place on the Hon. Dr. Menzies proposing to read a telegram, with respect to a fact arising out of a statement made by the Hon. Captain Fraser in the Council. A division was idtimately taken on the question whether the Hon. Dr. Menzies he allowed to read the telegram. The ayes were, 15; noes, 9. The telegram had reference to a writ dated July 6, 1859. It was ordered to be placed among the other documents in relation to the same subject. DISQUALIFICATION COMMITTEE. The report of the committee appointed to inquire as to whether there had been any infringement of the Disqualification Act, in certain circumstances stated, was brought up by the Hon. Dr. Menzies and read. The report was adopted. AUCKLAND ENDOWMENT. The Auckland City Endowment and Reserves Bill was read a third time and passed. CHRISTCHURCH DRAINAGE BILL. The above Bill was read a third time and passed. WESTPORT RESERVES BILL. The Westport Municipal Reserves Bill was read a second time on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Edwards, and ordered to be referred to a committee. WELLINGTON TOLLGATES BILL. In moving the second reading of this Bill, The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said its object was to remedy a defect in the provincial legislation, which had been the cause of recent litigation. Had the Provincial Council been sitting there would have been no occasion for the provincial authorities to come there for an Act of that character, but in the absence of the Provincial Council it was necessary they should take such a course. He was not aware that as regards the Bill itself there would be any objection to its passing. There was, however, one clause to which the attention of the Council had already been directed, and which had a retrospective effect. Eor that reason he had been disposed to regard the Bill with disfavor, but he had since been told that reasons existed, which were brought forward, that the Bill was retrospective in name only, and not in reality. If the second reading were agreed to, the Bill could be committed, and it would be for the Council to decide upon the particular clause to which he had referred. IN COMMITTEE. The Hon. the Speakiir left the chair, and the Council went into committee on the Tollgates Bill. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE proposed amendments which would make the BUI operative from the time of its passing, and do away with the retrospective action, except to prevent those who had paid money already from recovering. The amendments were carried, the Bill was reported, and its third reading made an order of the day for the next (this) day. The following BiUs passed through committee, with amendments : —Greytown and Masterton Reserves Bill, Westport Municipal Reserves Bill, and Clyde Waterworks Bill. The Council then adjourned till half-past seven. ABOLITION OF PROVINCES BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of this Bill, and said that so much attention had been already absorbed, and so much had been said, that were it not that he desired to place on the records the opinion he held upon the subject, he should scarcely have troubled the Council with any remarks. He detailed the parliamentary history of the Bill, commencing with the resolutions passed in the Lower House last session. Passing on, he said the Government sought to abolish the provinces, and localise the land revenue ; hut with regard to the Seat of Government, he thought that was settled by the Act of 1803, and was of opinion that further legislation was not necessary in that direction, because they had no desire to change what force of circumstances had brought about. . A tyrannical majority had decided that the Seat of Government should be Wellington, though a standing order then in force had to be brought into operation in order to shut up a long and stormy discussion, and to silence a tyrannical minority. Perhaps it would have been well had that standing order not been repealed, so that it might have been used on a recent occasion. He spoke at length on this change of the Seat of Government, and said Wellington had at first been denounced on account of its being the seat of storms and earthquakes and stormy politics; but all these views had been modified, and if they did occasionally see an elderly Demosthenes defending so-called popular rights by talking against time, all were of opinion that politics in Wellington were not more stormy than they were elsewhere. He then referred to the land question, and the complaints which had always been made as to the unequal burdens imposed upon various provinces owing to the arrangements of the past —especially that between the North Island provinces and the New Zealand Company—and traced.the history of the land question from the compact of 1856 down to the present date, when abolition was a necessity. The process by which abolition was to ho accomplished Was

short and summary—one clause did it, proadding that the “provinces of Auckland, Hawke’s Bay, Tarauaki, Nelson, Westland, Wellington, Canterbury, Otago, and Marlborough shall be and are hereby abolished.” If that were agreed to, the whole thing was done. He believed the provinces had done good service, but their necessity was no longer apparent, for the colony had outgrown the duplex system hitherto in force. He traced the history of the colony from its first settlement, and in reference to Sir George Grey, said he raised the colony from a state of chaos to an orderly condition ; in fact, placed the colony on its feet again, and well earned the honors which her Majesty had been pleased to bestow upon him, and deserved a better recognition at the hands of the colonists than he then received. But during this time his Government was the most despotic that was in existence in any dependency of the British Crown except Norfolk Island, and the Governor had not then learned to value responsible government and popular rights and liberties so much as they had since been valued. The Premier sketched the leading incidents in Sir George Grey’s Governorship—the charge laid against him of habitually writing untruthful despatches, the petition for bis recall, the petition of right, the proclamation of Constitutional Government, the initiation of provincialism, the meeting of the General Assembly, &c. The first complaint against the centralising influence of provincialism was heard in 1858. Since then the provinces had increased to nine, most of whom were governed under a system of responsible government with ministerial crises, &c. But in some, as in Auckland, despotism —or rather, Ciesarism—was in vogue; for Councils passed resolutions one day and rescinded them the next, for the simple reason that they would interfere with the plans of the Superintendent. The question was, are these institutions to continue '! That was the question, which had been settled by the people long since, and the Legislature was now asked to give effect to the views of the people. The physical difficulties which once rendered provincialism a necessity were gone, as was strikingly illustrated by the fact that the conductors of Otago administration could hold office as provincial administrators, aud at thesametimeconductotherduties in Wellington devolving upon them by virtue of their constitutional offices of members of her Majesty’s Opposition. And again, public works and immigration now were undertaken by the General Government, and having passed out of the hands of the Provincial Government, the question as to whether the Legislature had power to abolish the provinces was hardly worth debating ; he did not intend to discuss it. Ample time had now elapsed to enable all parties to get the opinion of the highest authorities on the subject, and when he said he apprehended uo difficulty, the Council would doubtless be satisfied on that point.

The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said he had listened with interest to hear if the Premier would give a reason for the introduction of the resolutions last year. He had desired to hear the antecedent circumstances of those resolutions, because he remembered that they had been introduced in a moment of anger, with an avowed intention of crushing an opponent. He intended to vote for the Bill, because his vote would be in accordance with his long established views. He was not a new convert to centralism, or rather a colonial policy, and should not therefore show new-born zeal by attacking the institutions of the past. Provincialism had been a necessary consequence of the early difficulties of colonists owing to the geographical configuration of the colony; and although he would not say provinces had not made mistakes, he would say they had done much toward the development, progress of the colony, and proper administration of the land fund; and provincial misgovernment had not been more flagrant than that of the General Government. Many inconveniences had resulted from provincialism, but the greatest of all was the uncertain character of provincial legislation, owing to the difficulty of keeping within its bounds and abstaining from encroaching upon supreme power. Another fault was its insufficiency to meet the requirements of the colony. For instance, surveys, so far as particular provinces were concerned, might be admirable, but when looked at from a colonial point of view, they were unsatisfactory in the extreme ; and other matters showed the same failure to legislate for the whole colony. There was scab in sheep. In other colonies this disease had been eradicated, but not in New Zealand, solely owing to a want of united action. Provincialism had also fostered local jealousies. One province prevented its cattle and sheep from finding their way into the markets of another province, and ships arriving in a port of one province had been placed in quarantine ostensibly, because the ship had first touched at the port of a rival province. The necessity for provincialism had passed away when improved means of communication had come into use, and there was now less trouble in governing New Zealand from Wellington than there had been a few years ago in governing Otago from Dunedin. As England, from John o’ Groats to Land’s End, could be governed from London, so New Zealand from The Bluff to the Bay of Islands could be governed from Wellington. In places out of the colony people could scarcely realise the complex system of Government existing here, and to illustrate this view the bon. gentleman mentioned conversations he had had with persons in Europe. One of the chief reasons which should induce him to vote for abolition was the belief that a large number of persons of great ability being set free from provincial politics, would turn their attention to the affairs of the whole colony. Public opinion too would be strengthened, and rendered sound and healthy. At present, public opinion was confined to local politics, which were made to be supreme. If this were done away with, and a public opinion fostered and brought to bear upon the General Government, the good effect upon the colony would be soon apparent. It was the hope of this consummation which mainly influenced him. With reference to the financial proposals of the Government, he asserted that they could not be carried out for any length of time. In other colonies, where the Government had a land fund and were free from all the difficulties which surrounded New Zealand finance, such a liberal assistance to local authorities could not be afforded, and he submitted that if it could not be done in more favored places it could not be done in New Zealand. He believed that even next session the proposals would have to be modified, or an extraordinary amount of taxation must necessarily bo imposed to put the large sum into tho Treasury which this scheme would require. He referred to the arguments against the Bill, and said the liberties of the people would not be interfered with. The General Government were tho true conservators of liberty, and not the Provincial Government; or rather the 'people themselves, for so long as people were educated up to the present standard, and a man had the opportunity of rising from the lowest to the highest position in the land, liberties would not be lost. In connection with the cry that the people should have time to consider the matter, he concurred in that, but it had struck him that the people had seemed to settle the matter already, for at almost every meeting called to consider the matter they had decided at the outset that tho abolition of provinces was desirable. That expression of opinion was really all that was desired, for constituencies would have to deal with the principle only, and leave the details to the representatives. He should vote for tho Bill in its entirety. The Hon. Mr. CHAMBERLIN opposed the Bill, although he supposed his opposition would not avail much ; in fact, ho had been told that only another and ho would support his view. That might be, but still if he were the only opponent, he should speak and vote against it. He contended it would take away from those who had not, and give to those who had, and as for the financial proposals they were “a mockery, a delusion, and a snare.” He did not say it was undesirable to abolish the provinces, but he thought the attempt to pass the Bill without consulting tho people, and without having first distributed the Bill throughout tho colony for the people’s consideration, was very unjust. He moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The Hon. Mr. J. JOHNSTON seconded. The Hon. Colonel WHITMORE said the Government deserved very great credit for

haviug brought forward the measure, as in having thrown aside previous supporters, they had proved their courage and honesty. He had not voted with them frequently during the past six years, but he should give them his vote on the present occasion with the greatest pleasure. He did not suppose there would be a great saving of money, or that the sessions would bo any shorter. He believed they would have long and troublesome sessions, but all this would be compensated for by the growth of a national feeling. The best men would give up local politics, and come face to face with the difficulties of the country. People hitherto had seemed to forget New Zealand interests iu furthering the interests of particular provinces iu which they happened to have settled. He hoped that would be done away with. He approved of the measure because he thought this would be the result, and because he thought that public credit would be improved. The debenture holders in England watched the course of events here narrowly, and when they saw that immediately after a large_ loan the colony was endeavoring to consolidate the security, their confidence would be increased. He believed the colony had great reason to look back with pleasure on the past administration, and attributed their laches to the defects in the original Constitution, which had been absurdly drafted after the American Constitution. If they had been purely administrative he believed they would not have been swept away, but would have solved the puzzle of real local .self-government—a puzzle the solution of which exercised the mind of all Anglo-Saxons. He regretted the presence of the appropriation clauses ; but having got so far, thought it would be exceedingly wrong to go back or in any way endanger the safety of the measure. He was glad they had conquered themselves, and had got rid of all local jealousies, and setting of place against place, which had hitherto been the bane of the colony. He trusted they had now entered a new era, which would be an era of prosperity for New Zealand.

Tlie Hon. Mr, HART said that from the very outset he had believed the colony would be over governed, and had felt that provincial government would become an incumbrance to useful work. At an early time he had expressed these views, and subsequent events had but strengthened them. In the other branch of the Legislature legislation had beeu much interfered with by the conflict of interests, and measures desirable for one province which affected another province, were opposed by the members representing the latter with a total disregard of what was good for the colony. He mentioned as an illustration the opposition to the appointment of an inspector in bankruptcy, which was almost a necessity ; hut owing to local jealousies, it had not been done. Again, a proposal to borrow £400,000 for the ■ purposes of defence in the North Island, the people of the South Island had objected to be made responsible for, and the North Island had to bear it. That had been a proposal in accordance with sound public policy, for if the North Island suffered from the war, immigration to the South Island, and consequently its prosperity, would be interfered with. Then, colonial finance had been paralysed by the action of provincial members, for several provinces uniting together could prevent any Government from carrying out its plans. The hon. gentleman cited other cases, and expressed very great satisfaction at the prospect of this state of things coming to an end. He admitted the provinces had been useful, hut, as had been said before, improved means of communication had caused the necessity for their existence to cease. He complimented the Government for having brought the measure forward, and said the people, through the Press and through public meetings, had signified their approval of it. A motion made by the Hon. Mr. Buckley for the adjournment of the debate was negatived.

The Hon. Hr. MENZIES remarked that after the full treatment the measure had received at the hands of another branch of the Legislature, it might seem ungracious, even arbitrary, for the Council to dismiss it after one night’s consideration. He had purposed to extend his remarks at some length, but should now, be unable to do so. In speaking . to the question he referred to the power given to Sir George Grey to establish six provinces, and said he believed that gentleman had made: a cardinal mistake in dividing the colony into six provinces instead of establishing six provinces in the colony, for evil had resulted from this. Another error was committed in calling provincial Councils into existence before the General Assembly, thus giving the latter an appearance of being subsidiary, and giving the provinces a taste of sweet power. In reference to the conflict between centres of population and the outlying districts, much might be said on both sides, but the. worst phase of the question was the struggles in Parliament which followed. ' He had always leant towards colonialism in preference to centralism, and if he did not altogether approve of the measure, it was because of a fear that they might go too far, and sweep away the local administration which a General Government could never grasp, but must be conducted by local government. He did not- approve of the measure, but he ■ had ;expected from the first blow given to provincialism in 1867, when the provincial debts were consolidated through succeeding years, that the measure would come. The Bill was destructive and not constructive, and that ho thought objectionable. The Government before sweeping away should have raised up institutions to take the place of those swept away. In a democratic country like this the institutions must have the favor of the people, and the best way to secure that favor was to show them, and allow them to approve, those institutions under which they were to be governed. He did not think the proposal of the Government worthy of the occasion. He did not think road boards were sufficient to supply the place of present institutions ; a higher organisation was necessary in order that the colonial Parliament might get rid of such parochial matters as had been before them this session, as for instance, Tollgates Bills, &c., and which would come before the Parliament in shoals if something were not done. Koad boards were not fit for exercising this power, and ho hoped something would bo done during the recess to constitute a body capable of dealing with tolls, ferry rates, taxes on stock, suppression of noxious weeds, and a host of such matters, which, while above the work of road boards, should not bo brought before the colonial Parliament. He did not think the financial promises of the Government could be carried out, and believed that the Government on a future day would have to take the land revenue for general purposes. The necessities of the colony would render this unavoidable, and ho should not hesitate to acquiesce in that arrangement. With regard to widened choice ‘ of representatives, ho did not agree with that, because many persons could take a day’s journey to a Provincial Council, and spend a few days there, but could not afford three or six months to come to Wellington, nor would the quality of representatives be improved, because when Provincial Councils existed they were training schools for men entering public life. The Hon. Mr. J. JOHNSTON opposed the Bill, and said if blows had not been struck at the Provincial Governments by the Central Government, there would have been no attempt at abolition, for the Provincial Governments would have had plenty of means to carry on with. He considered that the Council should give real effect to the 27th clause, and reject the Bill, so that the people might express their opinions on the matter. So far there had been no genuine expression of opinion from the electors, for public meetings were worthless tests, He complained that the Ministry last session had put words into the mouth of the Governor, - when proroguing the Parliament, which were untrue. It was said in the Governor’s speech that, from debates which had taken place in the Council, there was no room to doubt that the Council would affirm the desirableness of doing away with the provinces, whereas no such debates had ever taken place. He expected an explanation from the Government. In further remarks he said they should keep and improve provincial institutions, for they

had done good, and the principle of provincialism had lately been introduced into the Belgian Constitution, with the exception that instead of elective Superintendents an appointee held a corresponding office. He referred to the prosperity of Belgium, and said that no one had heard that because of the increase of railways and telegraphs it was sought to do away, with the Constitution. He also quoted Switzerland in support of the system. He urged that the Council should give the people an opportunity of looking into the matter, and expressing their opinion through the ballot-box. During the course of his speech he said he had no confidence in the Government, iu consequence of their actions respecting native lands, and because of the manner in which the £4,000,000 loan had been negotiated. It had been refused quotation on the Stock Exchange, although members of the Stock Exchange Committee were connected with the house of Rothschild, and, moreover, the circumstances attending the negotiating of the loan had been referred, in common with a number of loans of a notoriously bad character, to a committee of the House of Commons to report upon. That meant either a civil or criminal inquiry into the matter. At 12.10 the debate was adjourned till next day, and the Council then adjourned. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, Octobkb 5. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. Several petitions were presented and notices of motion given. PAPERS. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS laid upon the table a copy of the evidence taken iu the inquiry as to the collision between the Young Dick and Jaue Spiers. THE NEW ZEALAND TIMES AND THE OHINEMURX MINERS’ EIGHTS COMMITTEE’S REPORT. Tile SPEAKER referred to the fact that the report of the select committee appointed to enquire into the illegal issue of miners’ rights at Oluuemuri had appeared in that morning’s New Zealand Times, and before it was placed iu the possession of members of the House. He had been unable to find by whose fault the circumstance had occurred. The report was brought up late at night, remained in the custody of the clerk of parliaments, by whom it was sent to the printing office to be printed. It had been ascertained that no information had been given from tbat office, and he (the Speaker) was unable to say how the newspaper had become possessed of it. Mr. T. KELLY pointed out that not only was the report published in the paper, but also the evidence, which had not been even laid upon the table. CAPTAIN LOCTITT AND THE SHIP RODNEY. In reply to Mr. W. Kelly, The Hon. Major ATKINSON said he had investigated the system successfully introduced by Captain Loutitt, of the ship Rodney, for securing the health and safety of immigrants, and considering it an admirable one, had communicated with the Agent-General on the subject. SIR JULIUS YOGEL, In reply to Mr. Murray, The Hon. Major ATKINSON said that all papers iu reference to Sir Julius Vogel’s mission to Australia and Europe had been laid on the table. BILLS INTRODUCED. The Invercargill Public Offices Bill and the Provincial Appropriation Acts Continuance Bill were introduced, and the latter was committed. In answer to a question, the Hon. Major Atkinson said the latter Bill would be in print on Friday. ORDERS OE THE DAY. The Debtors and Creditors Bill was read a third time, and passed. The House went into committee on the Outram Telegraph Station Bill and Davides Succession Bill, the first of which was reported, read a third time, and passed, and the third reading of the second was made an order of the day for Tuesday. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, iu reference to Major Atkinson’s answer to a question put by Sir. Thomson, on Monday, with regard to Sir Julius Vogels having refused to give a pledge or promise that no further loans would be raised for two years, Mr. Ormond quoted the New Zealand Times report, and asked if the document containing that information could be placed before the House ; also, whether it was intended to raise any further sums during the present financial year. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said Mr. Ormond had his official authority for the statement that the colony was not pledged to raise no more money during the next two years, yet on the authority of “the man in the street,” Mr. Ormond wanted documentary confirmation of an official statement. However, he (Major Atkinson) would consider whether it would be advisable to produce any document, but would not promise to produce it. However,-he might say that he had Sir Julius Vogel’s authority for what he said. The .Financial Statement showed that it was the intention of the Government to take advantage of a favorable opportunity to raise the balance of the loan. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT defended the action of Mr. Ormond iu raising the question. Sir Julius Vogel had no right to tamper with the credit of the country, and shelter himself under a confidential communication. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD defended the conduct of the Government. Mr. ORMOND said his whole object was to get the categorical definite statement from Major Atkinson, which would now be on record. That object being accomplished, he would not press the matter. Mr. Thomson, Sir George Grey, Major Atkinson, and Mr. Wood having spoken, the question dropped. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD, in reference to the question of disqualification of members for receiving money from Government in payment for land, explained that land for which he had been paid had been taken away from him for railway purposes. Mr. SHEEHAN, before the motion for going into Committee of Supply was put, moved that the House regrets to hear of the scandalous and dishonest dealings of certain Europeans in the acquisition of native lands in the province of Hawke’s Bay, and of the fact that high officers of the Government have been either connected therewith or wore cognisant thereof, and considers that sueli transactions are a stain upon the name of the colony. Mr. Sheehan spoke to this resolution at some length, and a debate ensued, iu which Sir Donald McLean, Sir George Grey, Mr. Ormond, Mr. Fitzherbert, Major Atkinson, Messrs. Reid, Takamoaua, Thomson, Rollestou, Katene, Taiaroa, and Wakefield joined. The original question, that the House go into committee of supply, was then put and carried, the amendment of Mr. Sheehan being last. estimates. The House having gone into committee of supply, The following items were passed ;—Militia and volunteer office, £325 ; store department, £3119 18s.; militia and volunteers, North Island, £11,822 165.; militia and volunteers, South Island, £7617. Sir DONALD McLEAN intimated that he would, during the recess, see in what direction the total estimate for class 7 could be reduced. Progress was reported at 2.20 this morning, when the House adjourned.