PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4532, 29 September 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, September 28. The Hon. the Speaker having taken the chair at 2 p.m., A number of papers were laid ou the table by the Hon. Dr.. Bolden. A PERSONAL EXPLANATION. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE before the business of tbe day was proceeded with would wish to make a personal explanation. On Eriday last he had stated that the Hon. the Colonial Ti-easux-er had not included in the amount of the public debt £400,000 Treasury bonds issued to the public, and that secondly the amount ought to be increased. He found now that the amount was included, but under tbe wrong bead, being under the funded debt of the colony, instead of the funded and unfunded debt. He thought that explanation was due to the Hon, the Colonial Treasurer, while at the same time tbe error he had been led to make would induce him to receive Government statements with less confidence in future, and to observe carefully whether the details of any account agreed with the heading. 1 NOTICE OF MOTION. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE gave notice that he would move, on the day following, that in the opinion of this Council the acknowledgment by the Government, in the purchase of native lands, of “ rights ” or leases acquired by Europeans from the native owners in violation of the laws of the colony, is opposed to all sound principles of public policy. PAPERS. A number of papers were laid on the table by the Hon. Dr. Pollen. GOVERNMENT APPRENTICES. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved for leave to bring in a Bill intituled an Act to provide that Apprentices may be bound, taught, and instructed in certain Arts and Trades connected with the service of the Government of the colony. The Bill was read a first time ; second reading appointed for Thursday next. TE ADTB COLLEGE ESTATE COMMITTEE. The Hon. Mr. RUSSELL moved that it be an instruction to tbe Te Aute College Estate Committee also to inquire into and report on the past administration and present position of the following educational trusts, namely, Porirua school, Otaki school, Motueka school, Papawai, Ngarumutawa.—Carried. WELLINGTON RIVERS BILL. The above Bill was discharged from the order paper, on tbe motion of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, in order to allow of members having an opportunity of perusing it, and was made an order of the day for Friday. CHRISTCHURCH DRAINAGE BILL. After a short discussion, the Christchurch District Drainage Bill was read a second time, and then committed, but progress was reported to admit of an important amendment. . GEEYTOWN AND MASTERION RESERVES BILL. The Hon. Mr. PHARAZYN moved the second reading of the Greytown and Masterton Public Park and Cemetery Reserves Management BUI. Some discussion arose as to whether the health of the inhabitants would bo endangered by the proposed country sites. Tbe Bill was ultimately read a second time, and referred to a select committee. DAVIDES SUCCESSION BILL. The Davides Succession Grant Bill, postponed from a previous sitting, was read a second time. PIAKO LANDS EXCHANGE BILL NO. 2.

In mo ving the second reading of the Piako Lands Exchange 8i11N0.2, the Hon. Dr. Pollen entered at some length into an explanation of its provisions. The singular story of the Bill, which, in effect, was set out in the preamble, arose out of an original land claim made on behalf of Mr. "Willis ; and in 1864 Mr. Commissioner Bell made an award that a block of 2000 acres be surveyed within certain specified limits in the Piako district, and that the grant of such land be issued to Mr. Willis. Owing to the native differences which for a long time had existed in that particular portion of the country, the survey was not made within the prescribed limits. Binding that it was impossible to carry out the survey at the place pointed out, Mr. Graham, the surveyor, or his agent, thought they would try in another place. They made accordingly a survey of 2,000 acres north of the proper boundary line. It happened that no portion of the laud so surveyed was contained within the limits of the area prescribed by the award made in favor of Mr. Willis ; a portion of it also was on land already awarded to another claimant; and another portion of it had never been acquired from the natives to the present day. Nevertheless, owing to neglect or a mistake of some kind, the survey thus made was accepted, and a Crown grant issued for the extent of land originally proposed in Mr. Commissioner Bell’s award. It was not long before the.error was discovered, and then the Secretary for Crown Lands communicated with Mr. Graham, who was representative of Mr. Willis at that time, requesting him not to deal with the land. Undoubtedly the proper course under the circumstances would have been to institute legal proceedings, but it was thought at the time that communication with Mr. Graham in. a friendly spirit would have prevented any further difficulty ; but as things, turned out, it had no other object than to hasten Mr. Willis’s operations with respect to the land, which was soon after sold to Mr. Banner, and afterwards to Messrs. Brown and Campbell, a wellknown mercantile firm in Auckland. It appeared that this piece of land was, amongst others, offered at auction by Messrs Brown and Campbell some year or two ago, and it was bought by Mr. Thomas Russell. Messrs. Brown and Campbell conveyed to Mr. Russell a title under the Land Transfer Act ; the proper legal formalities were gone through, and what is known as an indefeasible title under the Land Transfer Act was given to Mr. Russell. The case now stood thus : Mr. Russell’s claim was covered by a title to certain land, a part of which did not at present belong to the Crown, and that portion of it which did belong to the Crown was covered by an antecedent right. Accordingly, the Government had introduced the measure now before the Council to remove this difficulty. It proposed to exchange for this land a piece of land of equal value, to be selected by Mr. Thomas Russell. If further information _or inquiry were desired, he should be quite willing to refer the Bill to the Waste Lands Committee. He now moved that the Bill be read ■a second time.

The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE strongly opposed the measure. He gathered from what had fallen from the Premier, and what he was enabled to draw from the preamble of the Bill, that for a considerable length of time it had been known that this Crown grant had been issued erroneously, and that notwithstanding such knowledge, the land had been dealt with, in the hope that hereafter the owners would be compensated for any presumed loss they might have been subjected to. Now, it appeared to him that if compensation were to bo granted at all it would be bettor to m-ant it to the natives. As to the indefeasible title spoken of by the Premier, he had seen in the preamble that such was the case, and had been astonished to find that a title of that description had been passed. He went down to the Land Transfer Office to see what were the forms required to be complied with before such a title could be obtained. Hia knowledge of this matter led him to be certain that the form gone through would render it impossible, except by fraud, to pass through a land grant of that description, and upon examination he found such to be the case, A statement entirely erroneous must have been made ere the grant was obtained. He would further draw the attention of the Council to the effect of such a transaction. Under the Land Transfer Act, a person convicted of felony or forgery was liable to imprisonment for any term not exceeding four years, with hard labor. Before "oing any further, he contended that the Council should have some information on this subject, and the parties who had made tills false declaration should be brought to light, and the Government must take proceedings against them. Hr, Pollen had also said that in consequence of the land having passed

through the Land Transfer office, an indefeasible , title had been secured to Mr, RusseU. Fortunately, however, the Act contained a provision by which the title was not indefeasible so long as it stood in the name of the person who had obtained it by means of a false declaration. He sincerely hoped that this question would not be allowed to lapse, and that the Government would enter a caveat, and on discovering who were the guilty parties in the transaction, take action accordingly. He moved that the Bill be read that day six months. Several speakers followed in support of tbe motion of the Mon. Mr. Waterhouse. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN having replied, Tbe question was put, and the Bill thrown out on the voices. PIAKO EXCHANGE BILL NO 1. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of the Piako Exchange Bill No. 1. The Bill proposed to place at the disposal of Mr. Whitaker a certain piece of land in a district yet to be acquired from the natives, in order to give to the natives, for purposes of settlement, tbe laud owned by Mr. Whitaker. After discussion, the Bill was read a second time, and at a later hour of the day was referred to a select committee. MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Order of the day No. 9.—Goldfields Act Amendment Bill—Consideration of message from the House of Representatives, as follows: The House of Representatives have agreed to the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Bill intituled The Goldfields Act Amendment Act, 1875 (No. 1), with the exception of the admeniments in section 6, lines 23 and 34, whereby the compensation payable and charges and expenses to bo incurred under that section, which this House had appointed to be charged on tbe land revenue, are made chargeable ou the goldfields revenue. These being amendments which interfere with the public revenues, the House of Representatives do not deem it necessary to offer any further reason for disagreeing with the said amendments, hoping the reason stated will be deemed sufficient. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved that a message be sent to the House of Representatives, to the effect that the Council adhere to their views as to the necessity of leaving the amendments by them proposed. Several hon. members spoke in opposition to the motion of the Premier, and thought that the message might be provocative of that which he had expressed himself anxious to avoid, namely, a question of privilege. It was agreed to postpone the consideration of the message until next (this) day, the Hon. Mr. Menzies first notifying his intention to support the motion of the hon. the Premier BILLS POSTPONED. Order of the day No. 7 and 8, the Otago Waste Lands Bill, to be further considered in committee, and the Chubbin Land Bill, to be committed, were discharged, and appointed for next day. The Council then adjourned, it being five o’clock.

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, September 28. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30. LEAVE OP ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr. Retd, leave of absence was granted for ten days to Messrs. Stout and Wales on urgent private business. COAL SUPPLY. Mr. HARRISON asked if, in regard to the supply of coal to the Luna, tenders were invited from any of the coal companies in New Zealand ? Sir D. McLEAN replied that the practice had been to call for tenders in Wellington, and the lowest tender was accepted; but when the vessel went to such places as Greymouth, Bay of Islands, or other coal districts, she there took in coal. At Wellington the cost was 255. or 265. per ton. Mr. HARRISON remarked that coal could be put on board at Greymouth for 16s, per ton. DRUNKENNESS A DISEASE. Mr. STEWARD asked the Minister of Justice (1.) Whether his attention had been directed to the desirability of providing by legislation for cases of lunacy from excessive drinking, by restricting the opportunities for obtaining intoxicating liquor, and by providing for the curative treatment of dipsomaniacs ? (2.) Whether, during the recess, the Government would take the subject into consideration, with a view to the introduction of a measure dealing therewith at next session of Parliament ? He said the matter was one of considerable importance, and though it was too late in the year to expect any legislation this session, he should be satisfied with having called the attention of the Government to the matter, in the hope that they would see the advisableness of doing something. The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said, as the hon. member had remarked, the matter was undoubtedly of great importance, and should be dealt with. He pointed out that there was a clause in the Lunacy Act which partially met the case, and which had been occasionally used with good effect; but much of the beneficial effect of the clause was lost owing to the people having been sent to the lunatic asylums, which, after all, were not the proper places for them. He believed something would have to be done in the direction of finding some means for restraining people subject to the mania for drinking, and the Government would certainly give the matter earnest consideration, with the view of seeing if provision could not be made to meet the necessity. NEW BILLS. The following Bills were read a first time - Introduced by Mr. Sheehan —A Bill to amend the Auckland Waste Lands Act, 1874. Mr. Reid —Employment of Females Act Amendment Bill. Mr. Ormond— Napier Harbor Board Bill. Mr. Steward— A Bill to amend the Law relating to the Registration of Electors. QUALIFICATION OP ELECTORS BILL. The debate on the second reading of this Bill was resumed by Mr. SHEEHAN, who strenuously opposed the Bill, as interfering with privileges of miners and the representation of the natives. He believed the present franchise quite liberal enou"h, for his experience was that any person who was good for anything attained the present qualification after a twelve months’ residence in the colony. Ho should prefer manhood suffrage to this, which as a volunteered reform was very objectionable. No petitions had called for a measure of this kind, and the Government would be wise in letting well alone. He inquired whether the Government were prepared to stake their seats on the result of this Bill, and concluded by moving that it be read a second time that day six months. Mr. PYKE considered every man had a right to have a voice in the Government of the country, and the Bill considered from that standpoint did not go far enough. Ho thought the measure should not be considered in its relation to miners or any particular class, but in its bearing on the interests of the general community. The £5 qualification was a complete sham, and was not in any sense a property qualification ; but even if it was, it should be swept away, for that House was supposed to represent manhood, whilst the other House represented property, and in a critical time like this manhood should be fully represented. As for the miners being injured, that was a mere figment, for the miners were in favor of the change. He considered it highly desirable that all persons should be registered—for registration was the great safeguard to the electoral system. If stuffing the ballot-boxes were possible at all, it was eminently possible under the present system. He criticised the remarks of several speakers, and having announced his intention to make some amendments, said he should support the BUI.

Mr. J. O. BROWN said if the Bill were persisted in, he should propose an amendment to give females the right of voting, for he believed after all that they formed the most conservative element in the community. Mr. TAIAKOA said the Bill should have been translated. He might os well bring in a Bill in the Maori language. If the provision relating?to the natives were expunged, he would support the Bill. Mr. ROLLESTON thought the Maori members had fair cause of complaint. The

inevitable result. of tbe passage of[ this Bill would he the repeal of the-Maori Representation Act, and under these- circumstances the Bill should have been distributed among the Maoris. If the Bill got into committee’he should move the following amendment: —“That on and after the 20th October, 187 1, the qualification provided for under this Act shall enable the Maori inhabitants of New Zealand to vote at the elections for members - of the General Assembly, in accordance with the provisions of this Act, and from and after that date the provisions of the Maori Representation Act of 1867, and all other Acts amending the same, shall have no force or continuance, ,, Messrs. Wi Pakata and Katenb opposed the Bill. Sir GEORGE GREY thought the measure very incomplete and imperfect, and as it interfered with the rights of the miners and the natives, he should oppose it. Mr. WILLIAMS would vote for the second reading of the Bill, but in committee would support tbe amendment of the hon. member for Avon. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD opposed the Bill, and said there was a design on the part of the Government to affect the forthcoming elections. Miners contributed above £83,000 to the revenue in licenses, miners’ rights, gold duty, &c. ; but where were the clerks who paid that amount to the Treasury ? It was absurd to place lodgex-s ,upon the same footing as minex-s. Mr. WAKEFIELD said the Bill was a patchwork affaii-, and would not effect the object with which it was brought forward. Mr. PEARCE said he should support tbe Bill, because it would extend the franchise to a large number of intelligent taxpayex-s ; and in reply to Ihe argument that the Bill should not be passed because it had not been asked for, he reminded the House that it had been asked for by petition two years ago. _ He should propose some amendments in committee. Mi-. MONTGOMERY would support the Bill if the twelve mouths’ residence clause was retained, and provided it was a Government Bill and not the Bill of a private member. Mx - . O’CONOR thought the opex-ation of the Bill would benefit the towns at the expense of the country. In further remarks, ho said the great defect of the electoral law at present xvas the ridiculous system of registration. It should be changed—made more simple and universal; and this might be done by taking the rate roll as a guide ixx compiling the electoral roll. If a Bill giving universal suffx-age were brought down, he would support it, hut he would not support this Bill, the only object of which was to disfranchise the miners, for this would be the practical effect of compulsory registration under this Act.

Mr. MAY supported the Bill. Mr. TRIBE supported the Bill because it tended to extend the franchise. He defended the popular suffrage because it was intimately connected with all the measures of progress both in Britain and Britain’s colonies. He pointed out that even members of the House had not a property qualification, and had to come in under the miner’s right qualification—he himself had come in almost upon a miner’s right qualification, and he believed a Premier of the colony, one who had taken a very high position in the colony, had not had a property qualification. Mr. WHITE said he should offer a steady, sturdy, and determined resistance to the measure. It was Mr. Reynolds’ measure, and he was evidently attempting, to introduce manhood suffrage, just as he had introduced the ballot. He was strongly in favor of manhood suffrage, but for reasons he should give on a future occasion he could not support this Bill. The House now (5.30) adjourned. THE ABOLITION BILL. At 7.30, the Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that the Abolition Bill be recommitted, in order that amendments might be made in sections 16 and 19, and to propose a new clause. Sir GEORGE GREY moved as an amendment that the whole Bill be recommitted. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the only amendment proposed by the Government was in matters of administration. The hon. member for Auckland City West was aware of that, and the Government rather than consent to the whole Bill being recommitted, would not go into committee at all, but propose the new clause on the Bill being reported from committee. The amendment had been proposed in pursuance of a wish expressed by the hon. member for Taieri. Sir GEORGE GREY said the arrangement between the Opposition and the Government was, that the Bill as placed before the House should pass, but they had not agreed that new clauses of which they knew nothing should be passed. That was an attempt to break through the arrangement. What the Opposition desired was that the whole matter should come before them in committee. They also wished that the new clause should not be discussed that night, as members had only just had the clause placed in their hands, and were as yet unable to grasp the full scope of it. If tho Government refused this, he should feel it his duty to use every means in his power to get the whole Bill committed, so as to let matter's revert to their old position., Further discussion ensued, in which members of the Government, said that tho amendments to be proposed.Tvere merely of an administrative character.,, ,

Sir GEORGE GREY said an arrangement had been come to between the Opposition and the Government, by which it was arranged that the Bill should be passed, an arrangement which he remembered with regret and pain, and in some degree , with shame. The agreement had been carried out by the Opposition cordially, if not with pleasure, but the Government desired to break through it. The Government said it was a mere administrative matter; but supposing it was so, he had been unanimously elected to a high position in the province of Auckland, and had not been elected to that position in any way trammelled by the Government of the colony, or in any way placed under the control of the Government, nor was he required to communicate with persons with whom he had no desire to communicate. Recognising his position, he did not regard this matter as one of trifling importance, but as involving a principal of the highest importance and the greatest magnitude. He had already through weakness given way too much, for which ha should never entirely forgive himself ; but when the Government came down with a new clause of this nature, and, backed by a majority, told him he should assent to it that evening, he said distinctly he would not do it ; he said they were taking a wrong course, and more than that, they were bound in honor to consider the agreement which had been made, and he dared them to follow the course they proposed. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government had shown [every desire to meet the wishes of the Iron, gentleman, but after the speech which had just been made by him, they were not prepared to delay the consideration of the matter any longer. Instead of going into committee they should now take the report from committee, and propose to add the now clause without going into committee at all, and should ask the House to read the Bill a third time that night.—The amendment proposed by Sir George Grey was then negatived on the voices; and an amendment proposed by Mr. Sheehan, the object of which was to force the Government to bring the proposed new clause before the House in committee, was put, and a division called for. On the doors being locked, a large number of explanations were asked for, to enable the members of the House to understand the position of affairs. —The Speaker said at first that the now clauses need not be considered in committee, but might be discussed on the question that the report of the committee be agreed to. — Several members pointed out that the usual notice had not been given -that the supplementary order paper had not been circulated till the dinner hour, up to which time members had no idea that such a new clause was to be proposed.—The Speaker then decided that the requisite notice had not been given, and that the clause must first bo considered in committee. —Nearly an hour and a half, was spent in this discussion, and the Hon. Major Atkinson then said the Government would go into committee, and withdrew opposition to the amendment. The Government had no desire to force any course upon the Opposition, but,

lifter the speech of the hon. member for Auckland.,.City .West, had felt bound to take a stand.—The amendment was then carried, and the House went into committee. In sections 16 and 19 the words “ boards of river conservators ” were added, so as to endow those bodies with a contribution from the land fund, the same as road boards, &c. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that the following clause be added, to stand as section 27. :— tl Until the day next after the last day of the first session of the next or sixth Parliament of New Zealand, all powers duties and functions which immediately before the passing of this Act were under or by virtue of any law vested in or to bo exercised or performed by the Superintendent of any province on the recommendation or resolution of the Provincial Council of such province under any law or Ordinance for the time being in force, shall be exorcised by the Superintendent, with the consent of the Governor in Council. Clause 27 to stand as 28, and the words ‘ and twenty-seven ’ to be inserted after ‘ twentysix ’in line 53.” The Government expressed a willingness to report progress, on the understanding that the clause should be considered first thing next day, reported, and the Bill read a third time at the same sitting. The Hon. Mr. ITTZHERBERT, on behalf of the Opposition, accepted the offer, and progress was reported. QUALIFICATION OF ELECTORS BILL. Mr. ANDREW resumed the debate, in the absence of Mr. White, and opposed the Bill. The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS replied at some length, and in referring to the speeches made during the debate, stated that the Maori population would not be shut out from electoral privileges. As to the Bill being imperfect, he thought that Sir George Grey, had he been sincere in what he said, would have supported the second reading, and have endeavored to improve it in committee. As to the Maoris, what he desired was that they should have the same privileges in respect to voting as any other communities, but no more. Concluding, he expressed the hope that the second reading would be carried, as the arguments used against it were frivolous. The question having been put that the Bill be read a second time, a division was called for, resulting as follows : —Noes, 28 ; ayes, 20. SUPPLEMENTARY ELECTORAL ROLLS BILL. This Bill, to be read a second time, was discharged from the order paper. RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL. This Bill was further considered in committee, and reported with amendments. The Bill was then postponed till to-morrow. DEBTORS AND CREDITORS BILL. On the motion to go into committee, the Hon. Mr. Bowen gave a brief explanation of the clauses he proposed to add. Mi-. J. E. BROWN spoke at considerable length, to show that the Bill had no recommendations. Not only were distinct clauses defective in the extreme, but the whole Bill was a mixture of English, Scotch, and colonial systems. What was required was that a few clauses should be introduced, providing that whenever a man declares himself insolvent, his property should be at once vested in the official trustee. He moved that the Bill be read that day six months. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD spoke in condemnation of the Bill. He thought the honest trader, under that Bill, would be much more likely to suffer than the dishonest one. Mr. HUNTER drew attention to the poor attendance of members, and moved that the debate be adjourned. The debate was adjourned accordingly. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS ACT. The report on the Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. THE ESTIMATES. The House went into Committee of Supply, for the further consideration of the Estimates. Mr. SHEEHAN asked whether a report had been laid on the table in connection with the inspection of machinery department ? The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON replied that a statement had been made in the Public Works Statement, but ho was not quite sure whether a detailed report had been furnished. Mr. SHEEHAN asked the question in no unfriendly spirit. He believed a report of the land would prove of great interest. The several items under the head “ Public Departments,” wore passed without comment. The committee then proceeded to “ Law and Justice.” The Hon. Major ATKINSON said it was not proposed to appoint an Attorney-General without consulting the House. Mr. SHEEHAN pointed out that, in his opinion, the district judgeship at Napier had been a perfectly useless office, and that in consequence the £7OO was a waste of public money. Class 2 was passed without amendment. In Class 3 the Postal and Telegraphic department was skipped. The committee then passed the estimate for the Telegraphic department, £75,511, and proceeded to the Customs’ department, the items in which were passed without discussion. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House adjourned.