PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4527, 23 September 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, September 22. notice or motion. The Hon. Mr. PHARAZYN gave notice that he would next (this) day move for Wave to introduce a Bill providing for the preservation of the Grey town and Masterton Cemetery Park Reserves.

■~ BILLS INTRODUCED. , , .. ' The following Bills were introduced by tne Hon. Dr. Pollen" and read a first time:—An Act to enable David Davides to succeed to a piece of land at Opotiki ; an Act to enable Thomas RusseU to Relinquish Ortain Lands in the .Piako district, and the Governor to Grant other Lands in Exchange; an Act to Exchange with Frederick Whitaker certain Lands in the Piako district. _„_.' , , The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE introduced the, Wellington Rivers Act, 18/5, which was read a first time, and the second reading made an order of the day for Tuesday next. OKDEKS OF THE DAY. Tho Highway Boards Empowering Act (to be - read a third time) was discharged from the order paper, the Hon. Captain Baillie having given notice that ho would move for recommittal of the Bill next (this) day, for the purpose of adding a new clause. The GoldHelds Act Amending Bill (iNo. 1) was read a third time and passed. The third reading of the Oamaru Gasworks Bill was read a third time and passed. • The House went into committee on the Otago Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill. Considerable discussion took place on the deferred payments principle, and on the suggestion that the price should be £2 per acre, Mr. Miller said the great desideratum was to place the land beyond speculation. The restrictions were a mere anomaly, and could be set aside by the Government. —The Hon. Dr. Pollen concurred. The operation of the restricting law was in a ratio with tho number of people affected by it; and with a Government based as the New Zealand Government was, as soon as the people interested became sufficiently strong to affect the elections, it was impossible that the Government should not be influenced. Progress was reported on the motion of the Hon. the Speaker, and leave obtained to sit again oh Friday next. The Council then adjourned. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Wedsesday, September 22. The SrKAKER took the chair at two o'clock. notices. ' Several notices of motion were given. ALLEGED VENALITY OP EMIGRATION OFFICERS. Mr. ROLLESTON asked the Government whether they had any further information than had already been laid before the House, in reference"to the charge of venality brought by Sir Julius Vogel against tho Emigration Officers aciing under the Board of Trade, as referred to in Lord Carnarvon's despatch of the 20th October, 1574 (Parliamentary Paper, A. 2, page 10) ? Also, whether the names of the officers, and the grounds and authority upon which the charge was founded, had been furnished as requested in that despatch, and whether the charge had been substantiated or withdrawn? He read a large number of extracts, showing that charges of venality had been made by Sir Julius Vogel against the emigration agents ; but these had not been substantiated, and as the matter now stood the honor of all parties was involved. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government had no further information, and read letters showing that the letter in which these charges were originally preferred had boen of a confidential nature, and not intended for publication. The charge having been made public, however, Sir Julius Vogel had said that on his return to the colony he would either make good or retract his assertions. T6UNG DICK AND JANE SPIERS' INQUIRY. In answer to Mr. O'Neill, The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said that in a few days the Government would ba in possession of the papers connected with the Young Dick and Jane Spiers' inquiry, and would have pleasure in laying them upon the table. HONORARIUM TO CROWN AGENTS. In reply to Mr. MURRAY, The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the sum paid to Messrs. Julyau and Sargeauut, Crown Agents, by order of Sir Julius Vogel, on account of the recent loan negotiation, was £3333 Gs. B<L He further said that it appeared to be the custom—a custom which he believed had been initiated by the hon. member for the Hutt—that on all loan negotiations the Crown Agents were allowed Is. Sd. percent, commission. NEW BILLS. . The following Bills were introduced, and advanced a stage :—By Mr. O'Rorke, a Bill to provide for the Dedication and Management of certain Reserves in the Town of Onehunga ; Hon. Major Atkinson, Immigration and Public Works Appropriation Bill ; Hon. Major Atkinson, Public Debts Sinking Funds Act Amendment Bill. ABOLITION BILL. It having been agreed to private business, the r "House went into committee on the BUI. Clause 17. If in any case it shall happen that the land revenue raised within any provincial district for any one year shall be insufficient to meet the charges imposed thereon by the last preceding section hereof, it Ehall be lawful for the Colonial Treasurer, in the manner provided by the Treasury Bills Regulation Act, 1868, to borrow and raise such a sum as shall be sufficient to make up the deficiency in tho land revenue of such provincial district for any such year. The sums raised under such Bills, and all interest to accrue due thereon, and all charges incurred in the preparation or circulation of such Bills, shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, he a charge upon the future land revenue arising within the provincial district, and may from time to time be charged in account against such last-mentioned land

revenue. The amount to be raised under this Act by such Treasury bills shall not in any one year exceed the sum of one hundred thousand pounds. Mr. GEORGE MdLEAN proposed an amendment to the effect that Treasury bills should not be issued without the previous sanction of the House. Mr. ROELESTON thought this clause the most objectionable of the whole Bill, and if no other member divided the committee on it, he ghould do so. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government were not disposed to accept the amendment, because a Treasurer might bo unduly trammelled, and no injury could arise from the power being granted to the Treasurer, because the amount was so small. He hoped the hon. member would withdraw the amendment. . , , The amendment was negatived by consent, an amendment suggested by Mp. Stafford having been accepted so as to make the clause provide that at no time shall the Treasury bills in circulation exceed one hundred thousand pounds. On the question being put that the clause as amended be agreed to, Mr. MONTGOMERY said he objected to the clause, because it provided for money to be advanced against the land fund of a province, when there was little probabiUty of the bills being met. Particularly was this noticeable iu the case of Auckland. .„„„ ~ ~ The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the country must be provided for ; he believed the provincial land funds would meet the bills, but if they did not, then the money must come from the Consolidated Revenue. The clause then passed as amended. Clause 18. The residue of the land fund arising within each provincial district after the deduction aforesaid shall be considered as divided into two equal parts, and shall be charged as follows : (1.) One part thereof shall be applied in and towards maintaining and promoting immigration into the provincial district, in accordance with the provisions of The Immigration and Public Works Act, 1870, and the several Acts amending the same, and with such proportion of the maintenance and support of

- charitable- institutions^as_.shall.Jrom. time to time be fixed in accordance with this Act. (2.) The other part shall be subject to the appropriation of the General Assembly for- the construction and maintenance of public works within the provincial district.

For the year ending the thirtieth day of June, one thousand eight hundred and seventysix, the portion of the said residue hereby charged with the promotion and maintenance of immigration shall not be applied for that purpose. The said portion of the land fund hereby devoted to the maintenance and support' of charitable institutions shall be subject to the appropriation of the General Assembly for the purposes aforesaid ; .provided, however, that until the end of the session of the General Assembly held next after the date of the abolition of the province comprised within the provincial district, the expenditure of the said portions of the land fund arising therein shall be regulated by the Governor in Council : Provided further that not more than a tenth part of the said residue shall be appropriated or set apart for such purposes. The Hon. Major ATKINSON proposed to strike out sub-section 2, in order to insert the following :—" The other part shall be_ applied by local governing bodies for providing and maintaining public works within such provincial district in such manner as shall hereafter bo provided by an Act of the General Assem-, bly constituting local government bodies within such district."

Mr. MACANDREW moved that the following proviso bo added to tho Bill:—" Provided that the residue of tho land fund arising within tho Otago Provincial District, after : defraying the charges as set forth in section 16 of this Act, shall be paid monthly to the account of the board of works of the said provincial district to be constituted by an Act of the General Assembly (or in manner hereinafter provided) ; and such residue of the land fund shall be subject to appropriation by the said board of works for the construction and maintenance of public works within the said provincial district: Provided always that, until an Act of the General Assembly has been passed to constitute a board of works as aforesaid, the members of the General Assembly repr< senting the several electoral districts in the Otago Provincial district shall be and they are hereby constituted a board of works for the said provincial district ; and all powers, duties, and functions which, immediately before the date of abolition hereunder of the said Province of Otago, were under or by virtue of any Act or Ordinance vested in the Superintendent of the said province (excepting those referring to education), shall, on the day of the dato of the abolition of the said province, vest in and be exercised and performed by the Chairman of the Board of Works of the- said provincial district." In supporting tho amendment Mr. Macandrew referred to the great progress which had been made in Otago under the provincial system, remarking that he did not believe that in any part of the world had so much been done by so small a handful of people, and in so shortatime. Throughout the length and breadth of the province there wero roads and bridges. During the cm-rent year a sum of £270,000 had been spent by the Provincial Government on public works, irrespective of local road boards. Fully two hundred different and distinct road lines had been made, at a cost of £142,000 ; seventy bridge?, at a cost of £58,000 ; twenty jetties and wharves, £23,420 ; twenty-nine different works - and ; buildings, at a cost: of £55,000. And of this sum of £270,000 not more than £lo,ooo'had been spent in Dunedin. This was local self-government such as would never be given from that House. The Local Government Bill, with all its 270 clauses, would not confer such local self-government. Sir F. D. BELL objected to the clause, and was disposed to support the amendment. Mr. J. E. BROWN, aa a further amendment, proposed that the following should be substituted for that of Mr. Macandrew: —" The residue of the land revenue arising within each provincial district, after tho deduction aforesaid, shall be applied by the local governing bodies in the construction and maintenance of public works within the provincial district, in such manner as shall hereafter be provided by any Act of the General Assembly constituting local-government bodies within such district."

The Hon. Major ATKINSON, on the part of the Government, declined to accept the amendment in any shape or form, and said further that although the Government, in view of the Act passing this session, had agreed that boards of works should be established, they now, in view of the postponement of the matter, absolutely declined to do that, or in any way meddle with the clause in that direction. In further, remarks, the Treasurer said the work of this session, next session, and even the session after, must necessarily be of a tentative nature, for until time had elapsed, a system of colonial finance and administration could not be thoroughly established, and such a thing as finality could not be anticipated. He hoped the committee would reject the amendment.

The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD having commented on the fact that the early system of finance—that the expenditure for immigration and public works in various districts should be borne by the land funds of the respective districts —had been found to be unfair, because of the inequality of the land funds, announced his intention of supporting the clause as it stood. The amendment proposed by the hon. member for Port Chalmers was of a most important and fundamental character, and he had no hesitation in saying that if such an amendment were carried he would be prepared to vote that tho Bill go no further, for it would introduce a system of the very worst kind of provincialism. As for the representatives of the various districts in that House being constituted road boards, it was absurd. Most of those members wore elected from the capital towns, and if these men constituted the boards of works what .would be the result ? —that outlying districts would be neglected or absolutely ignored altogether. Then again, if eighteen members were to come from one district, twenty from another, no Government could withstand the pressure which would be brought to bear upon them. Why was it contemplated to make those road boards political bodies ? (Mr Macandrew: It is not.) Were not members of that House politicians ? It would be the t»ld thing over again, " Your money or your life." He was perfectly surprised to see the hon. member put his ideas into such a shape. Mr. McGILLIVRAY opposed the amendment.

Mr. REID supported the establishment of road boards. Mr. ROLLESTON said from the tone the debate was now assuming it was clear that neither the Government nor the House knew whither they were drifting. Although the Government might, by its large majority, force the House to carry out ita will, he was sure provincial institutions would come up again in some form or another, and flourish stronger than ever.

The Hon. Mr. BOWEN defended the principle of charging the cost of immigration upon land fund.

Mr. SHEEHAN supported the amendment of the lion, member for Port Chalmers, if the Government did not intend to pass the Local Government Bill.

The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government intended to go ou with the Local Government Bill, but be was afraid it would not pass through this session. Mr. BRADSHAW signified his intention of voting for the amendments of the hon. members for Ashley and Port Chalmers. In referring to Mr. Stafford's opposition to the latter, he said he was unable to comprehend it, inasmuch as that gentleman had voted for a similar proposal in ISG7. The Hon. Major ATKINSON : As the commmittee had expressed itself in favor of Mr. Brown's amendment, the Government would be prepared to accept it. Mr. MERVYN said he should support tho Government throughout, and wished it to bo understood that bis support was purely independent.

: The Hon. Mr. _ FITZHERBERT made a sarcastic speech on the arguments against proposal of Mr. Macandrew. As to the; omission of sub-section 1, they were abandoning" a most material principle of the Bill; they thereby declared that immigration should not be chargeable against tho land revenue. He looked upon it as an entirely retrograde movement.. Of the amendment in sub-section 2he approved. He supported tho amendment of the hon. member for Port Chalmers. It was necessary that, provincial institutions being abolished, some responsible body should be placed in their stead. ■ The farther they proceeded with the Bill, the more evident did it become to his mind that the Government were totally incapable'of grasping the subject. The result of these tentative measures would be that it would take years to build up the new system. After some further discussion, The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT pointed out that in the Financial Statement immigration was charged in part upon the land fund. If the amendment were carried, this section of tho statement would have to be modified; otherwise the Government would be guilty of deluding the public creditors. , The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied, and explained that the statement merely said such charges should be made, in the opinion of the Government, and further it stated that the Government were most anxious that the' public estate should not bo dissipated. He should be disinclined to consider there was anything in the objection of tho hon. gentleman, but as he was an authority he supposed he must consider it pregnant with meaning, and lie should, therefore, be prepared to amend' the statement, to the effect that immigration should not be chargeable against the land revenue. I Mr. REID proposed to insert in the amendment of Mr Brown that " a provincial board of works be elected." This amendment was negatived, and an amendment, of the wording simply, was moved by Mr. Steward, and carried. The amendment as altered was then put and carried. Mr. Macandrew's amendment, after some discussion, was made to be general instead of local in its bearing. The question was then put, that the proviso of Mr. Macandrew bo added to the Bill; On the Chairman declaring the Noes to have it, Mr. Macandrew said tho Ayes had it, and a division was taken, resulting as follows : Noes, 31 ; ayes, 14. Clause 18, as amended, was allowed to stand part of the Bill. Clause 19 was then proceeded to—Endowment of road boards out of laud revenue. After discussion on the last paragraph in the proviso, , . Mr. SHEEHAN stated that Taranaki could not come within the last section of the proviso in clause 19, because it could levy no average rate according to the Highway Boards Empowering Act, and he contended that a validating clause was necessary. Some discussion ensued, the Hon. Major Atkinson stating that the Taranaki members were quite satisfied of tho safety of their position. Mr. GIBBS moved an amendment for providing subsidies to outlying districts, of which he gave notice the other day. Messrs. SHEniAUD, Bcckland, and Sheehan spoke to the amendment. Mr. SHEEIIxVN contended that under the present Bill the out districts would suffer, and he would therefore support the amendment. Messrs. McGlasiian and May followed. The latter said he should vote against the third reading of the Bill, unless some amendment were permitted in the direction proposed. If the BUI were passed in ita present shape, he should when he met his constituents have to disclaim all connection with it. Mr. REID thought many hon. members would be ashamed when they should go before their constituents after the passing of the Bill. He thought the Native Minister had done wisely to throw it off his shoulders,. and that the Colonial Treasurer would not attain much slory from his connection with it. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD supported tho amendment. . Mr. MONTGOMERY did not favor the amendment ; its wording was vague. Mr. SHEEHAN moved that the following words be added to Mr. Gibbs's amendment : " That all districts situated within a proclaimed goldfield, or goldminihg "district, should be deemed to come within class 3. His reason for this was, that the on roads within such districts was so exceptionally heavy that it was utterly impossible to keep them in repair without special Mibsidy. ' The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the object of the 19th clause was simply to provide for all road boards a general endowment. Mr. MURRAY suggested that some provision should be made for those districts in which road boards had not been constituted. Mr. REID failed to see how the clause was to be operative in Otago. On a division, Mr. Gibbs's amendment was negatived by 31 to 2. Mr. CURTIS moved that the whole of the proviso be struck out for the purpose of adding the following words—" But such annual payment shall not exceed one shilling in the pound upon the annual value to let, or one penny in the pound to sell, of rateable property within any such district." The Government accepted the amendment, and it was agreed to. Clause 20. Providing for the payment annually out of the Consolidated Revenue to the governing body of every road district and municipality, by way of endowment, the sum of one pound for every pound raised locally. Mr. CURTIS proposed a similar amendment to that which was accepted in the last clause. , „ Messrs. Gibbs, T. L. Shepherd, and Siieehan strongly opposed subsidising municipalities at the expense of the country districts, arguing that such a proposal if given effect to would reduce taxation in the cities, and relieve property of its just burdens, at the expense of the Consolidated Revenue. Mr. HARRISON proposed an amendment to the effect that road boards should receive an endowment of thirty shillings and the municipalities nothing. Mr. REID urged that the clause should be struck out altogether, considering that it could not be justified on any principle of sound statesmanship. It was merely taking away money from the people to return it again, and the proposal violated every principle of taxation. Instead of increasing the Customs revenue it would bo better to reduce Customs revenue to a minimum, aud'allow the people of particular districts to determine how they would raise taxation for local works. Mr. WOOD said although the principle of ' tho clause was vicious yet there was no alternative but to accept it, unless the Government were prepared to reduce taxation. The people by this clause would get some of the money back for local purposes, and no one could deny that drainage, lighting, &c, were very imperfect in many of the cities and towns. He should vote for tho clause. Mr. W. KELLY supported Mr. Harrison's amendment.

Mr. WEBB thought a pound scarcely enough for towns to get. Mr. STEWARD said if these subsidies were vicious in principle he should like to know whether the principle upon which capitation allowances had been granted and received by the Provincial Councils was sound.

Mr. HARRISON protested against the system of subsidies. He believed the Government would not be able to meet its engagements in this respect. _._,.., After further discussion, Mr. Harrisons amendment was negatived on a division, the numbers boing 0 for, 24 against. _ Mr. Curtis's amendment was carried. The clause as amended was then agreed to. Clause 21. Accounts to bo sent to Colonial Treasurer of rates received. An amendment, proposed by Mr. Sheehan, to meet tho altered circumstance, was agreed to. Clause 22, respecting proceeds of sales of confiscated lands, was struck out, as the Government intend to introduce a Bill on the subject. Progress was then reported, leave to sit again was obtained, and The House adjourned at 1.15 o'clock.