PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4521, 16 September 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wednesday, September 15. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. PETITIONS. Petitions were presented by the Hons. Messrs. Mantell, Ngatata, and Kohere. NOTICES OF MOTION. Several notices of motion were given. ANN HOOD GRANT BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved, without notice, and it was agreed to, that the time for bringing up the report of the Select Committee on the Ann Hood Grant Bill be extended for one week. It was also agreed that a message be sent to the House of Representatives asking for the attendance of the Hon. Major Atkinson on the said committee for the purpose of giving evidence. A number of other motions were made. TRAVELLING EXPENSES.

The Hon. Mr. MANTELL moved that it be an instruction to the Disqualification Act Infringement Committee to inquire and report upon the question whether a member of that honorable Council, holding an honorary appointment under the Executive Government, can receive any travelling allowances or free passages while travelling on the duties of his honorary appointment, without contravention of the provisions of the various Disqualification Acts, or prejudice to his position as a member of the Legislative Council. Having undertaken the duties of Dr. Hector, he found it necessary to travel from the Seat of Government for the purpose of making certain inspections, he wished to know, therefore, whether he could be recouped for what he was out of pocket, without an infringement of the Disqualification Act ; and with this object, he moved the motion standing in his name. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN hoped there would be no difficulty in removing any scruples which might exist in the mind of the hon. gentleman as to receiving the necessary travelling expenses in connection with his self-imposed services. It would be very hard that the hon. gentleman, in addition to the loss of time incurred in the conscientious discharge of his duties, should be compelled to spend his own money in the public service. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON expressed a doubt as to whether the committee was competent to give a decision on the subject. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL replied that he should consider it no hardship, having undertaken a public, duty, to pay the travelling expenses in connection therewith, provided the Disqualification Act debarred him from receiving those expenses. The motion was then put and carried. PUBLIC HEALTH ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN introduced a Bill entitled An Act to Amend the Public Health Act, 1872. HIGHWAY BOAISDB EMPOWERING ACT. The Hon Mr. MILLER, in introducing the Highways Boards Empowering Act Amendment Bill, said the Bill proposed to adjust differences which occasionally arose between rood boards of different districts as to the construction of roads. It was quite possible that in any part of the colony a necessity might arise for the establishment of communication between a certain point and a seaport. It was quite possible also that between the two points there might exist an intermediate road board, which might object to the road, and to bear a share in the construction thereof. He thought, therefore, it was most desirable that a Bill similar to the present should exist, so that the responsibilities of those boards might be determined by constituted authority. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed next (this) day. TARANAKI WASTE LANDS BILL. The Council went into committee for the further consideration of the Taranaki Waste Lands Bill, upon the second clause of which considerable discussion arose. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON spoke warmly against the Bill. He looked upon it as a job. To this expression the Hon. Mr. Miller objected—it was not parliamentary. The CHAIRMAN ruled that the expression was too strong. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON then called it thimble-rigging, as being a term which meant as much, but didn’t sound so bad. He said it was common talk in every hole and corner of that House that the Bill had been introduced to meet the views of a few gentlemen. The Hon. Mr. MILLER : Would the hougentleraan explain where arc the holes and cornel’s of this House ? The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON : You know perhaps bettor than I do, 1 understand that a few little games arc going on in this House —little games which are not accessible to every member of the House. The Hon. Mr. MEN/lES thought Mr. Robinson must have carefully explored those holes and corners himself, because ho evinced such an accurate knowledge of what was going on in those places. After considerable discussion, the second sub section 2 was amended by the insertion of 2s. instead of Is. as the price per aero at which the laud might be leased. The Hon. the SPEAKER moved, as an addition to the last amendment, that it be in the discretion of the Waste Lands Board to charge a royalty of not less than fid. per 100 ft. of Bairn timber. Additional clauses were added on the motion of the Hon. Sir J. RICHARDSON, providing. —That the leases bo put up to auction in the mode prescribed with respect to other waste lands in the province; that no greater quantity of laud than 1000 acres be set aside in any one year ; that it be lawful for the Board to reserve any land having special value, and to offer the same for sale, the minimum price being not less than 40s. per acre. The CHAIRMAN then reported to the House, and the Speaker resumed the chair, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Friday. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that he would move for recommittal of the Bill. KAKANUI HARBOR BOARD BILL. The Kakanui Harbor Board Bill passed through committee without amendment, was reported to the House, read a third time, and passed. TIMARU EMBOWERING BILL. The Timaru Municipal Council Empowering and Waterworks Loan Bill passed throiigh committee with amendment. Its third reading was made an order of the day for Friday. The Council then adjourned.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wednesday, September 15. The House met at 2.30. Several notices of motion were given. waste lands committee’s report. The committee appointed to report upon the question of waste lands brought up its report, which was ordered to he taken into consideration on a future day. FISH BEEF, MOERAKI. Mr. STEWARD asked the Commissioner of Customs (1.) Whether the Marine Department proposed to take steps to guard against accident during the daytime to vessels passing along the coast of Otago, between Oamaru and Port Chalmers, by marking the position of the reef off Moeraki, known as the Fish Reef, by means of bell buoys or floating beacons ? and (2.) When the proposed lighthouse at Moeraki would he available as a beacon and guide for vessels passing that portion of the coast by night ? The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said in fine weather no vessel had any right to go near this reef, and in foggy weather any mariner who knew it would give it a wide berth. At night, no doubt, it was a dangerous reef. It would be seen on a reference to the marine report and the Estimates, that the Government proposed to erect a light at Moeraki, so that masters of vessels might take their bearings, and avoid the reef. BILLS INTRODUCED. Bills were introduced—by Mr. White, a Bill to Suspend the Operation of the Westland Tollgates Act Ordinance, 1875; by Mr. Ingles, a Bill to Endow the Blenheim Grammar School; by Mr. Cuihbertson, a Bill intituled The Invercargill Municipal Council Empowering and Waterworks Loan Bill; by the Hon. Mr. Bowen, Evidence Further Ameudment Bill; by Mr. Pearce, a Bill to Amend the Licensing Act 1873 Amendment Act, 1874. abolition of provinces bill. Sir DONALD McLEAN said—Sir,—Before proceeding to the order of the day for Fthe further consideration of the Abolition Bill in committee, I wish to take this opportunity of stating that when the House adjourned on Friday afternoon last, that course was taken in consequence of the Government having received a proposition from the Opposition in reference to the Abolition Bill, and other matters then before the House. I may say that the proposals led to several interviews between Ministers and hon. members on the Opposition side of the House, the result of which has been an agreement that the Abolition Bill shall pass this session, and that hon. members shall consider it fairly and upon its merits, and without unreasonable opposition. It is conceded by the Government in return, that the Bill having been passed, the Government shall suspend the date of its coming into operation till one day after the prorogation of the first session of the new Parliament. That has been the concession made by the Government, and I believe hon, members supporting the Government will fully concur in the arrangement. The Act will be placed upon the Statute-book, and the principle of abolition will thus have been absolutely affirmed ; and outhe other hand, we have considered it due to the Opposition to take into account their particular views on the question, and have therefore agreed that the Bill shall not be brought into operation till the date named. I may add that the various discussions which have taken place during these negotiations noth the leaders of the Opposition have been conducted in a spirit which shows an earnest desire on the part of those gentlemen to meet the present circumstances of the country and to carry on the public business. I venture to express a hope that the future discussions of this House may be characterised by the same spirit—(cheers)—and that there null be an earnest desire on the part of members of both sides of the House to proceed with the business of the session with as little loss of time as possible, a course which is absolutely necessary for the welfare of the colony at large. I hope that the House will be animated by that feeling, and that we shall apply ourselves to the real business of the country, of which there is yet a great deal to get through before the session can come to an end. I make these remarks with the intention of explaining the position of affairs. (Cheers.l

Sir GEORGE GREY ; Sir, 1 -wish to state that substantially the position has been accurately stated by my lion, friend the Native Minister ; but I wish to add one word, to this effect, that personally I was unable to act in the matter with those gentlemen in conjunction with whom I have previously acted. But the conclusion having been agreed upon, X shall do my best to give effect to the views which they have expressed, and the determination they have arrived at. For myself I could not altogether acquiesce in the course which has been taken, for it was one to which I could not give my entire concurrence. However, I am able to state on behalf of the Opposition that they will faithfully carry out the arrangement which has been made, and that arrangement having been made, X shall in no way interfere with it, object to it, or in any way attempt to embarrass it. (Cheers.) REPORT ON NATIVE AFP AIRS. Mr. SHEEHAN moved that the report of the Native Affairs Committee on the petition of certain natives of Hauraki district, having reference to restrictions on the sale of land, to Maori representation, and the neglect to place Maoris on the jury list, be taken into consideration. He said there were large questions involved in the matter, and eight or ten years ago great attention would have been paid to such a petition as that which formed the subject of this report. A great mistake had been made in proclaiming certain parts of the colony to be open to a first claim on the part of the Government for purposes of the public works policy, whenat the same time itdid not apply to the whole of thecolony. In moving the motion, he had no intention to interfere with the policy of the Government, but he hoped the Government would consider the matter during the recess. In reference to the second part of the question, he remarked that under the present system there should be six more native members than there were. But he believed special representation should be abolished altogether, and natives left to qualify themselves to vote at the general elections just as other electors did. With respect to the latter part of the motion, he considered that even if it were thought undesirable to admit Maoris to the full privileges of Europeans, he thought it would be well if the Government would make some arrangement whereby cases in which Europeans and Maoris were concerned should be dealt with by a mixed jury. Sir BONALD MoLEAN said he thought it just and proper that the Crown should have the right of pre-emption to all lands, and regretted that the system had not been carried out so fully as it ought to have been. Yet he thought no change was necessary, for although there had not been wanting Europeans to stir up differences between the natives and the Government in respect to this matter, on the whole it had worked well. As to the system of special representations, he wits beginning to feel that it would be well if Maoris were left to qualify themselves to vote as electors, but this matter would be rectified in time, for the young natives wore now being educated up to this point. When the influence of that education began to exercise itself, special representation would be done away with, as representatives of the natives would then bo able to understand whicb was said m Parliament, and also speak their mind in English. With reference to the jury question, the Act of 1868 allowed natives to be upon juries, and the Government would take the matter into consideration. ♦ Mr. Stout and Mr. Gibbs having spoken, Mr. TAKAMOANA hoped the House would consider the question of Maori representation, and not leave it to the Native Minister. Let things be done openly and not secretly. It might be very well to say, send these evil and ignorant'people out of the House ; but let the House consider the matter, and not do the Maoris evil Mr, KATENE urged that the petition should be referred to the Government, and said be had no idea in committee that the hon. member for Rodney would bring forward a motion in the House. He should not speak on

the question of Maori representation, for that should be left to the House. In reply to Sir George Grev, Sir DONALD McLEAN said so soon as the Government had considered the matter of Maori juries, they would communicate the decision to the House. Mr. TAlAROAsaid there shouldbe increased Maori representation, for European members paid no attention to what the Maoris now said —in fact, he felt he was in a false position, and therefore seldom spoke. He intended to go out at the end of this session, and hoped no Maori would come forward from the other island. In reply, Mr. Sheehan complimented the Native Minister on having been the first to introduce English education amongst the Maori children, and further said there was a general wish amongst the natives that the Government should retain the pre-emptive right, but he hoped the Government would consider the whole matter. The motion was agreed to. REPORT OF THE WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE ON THE CASE OP PETER ROBERTSON. Mr. SHEEHAN moved that the report of the Waste Lands Committee on the case of Peter Robertson be referred back to them, in order that the petitioner, who had come to Wellington, might he heard. Mr. CURTIS (chairman of the committee) opposed the motion, on the ground that the committee had gone into the matter very fully, and had gained all information it was possible to get. Mr. REID thought the committee could not do otherwise than hear the petitioner. The Hon. Major ATKINSON, on the ground that all petitioners should be heard, trusted the committee would consent to hear petitioner. After some further discussion the motion was agreed to. PETITION OP WILLIAM SWANSON. Mr. BRANDON moved that the report presented to the House by the Committee on Public Petitions last session, on the petition of William Swanson, together with the evidence, and copy of all correspondence of Mr. Bathgate and Mr. Batkin with Mr. Swanson and any other person relative to the loss of the document referred to in the petition, be laid cm the table. Agreed to. BOARDS OP HEALTH REPORTS. Mr. O’NEILL moved that the reports of the various Boards of Health laid upon the table of this House during the present session, in terms of section 15 of the Public Health Act, 1872, be printed. Sir DONALD McLEAN, on behalf of the Government, agreed to the motion, and it was carried. RETURNS OF COAL IMPORTED. Mr. O’NEILL moved that the returns laid before that House, showing the quantity and value of coal imported into New Zealand, from the Ist July, 1873, to the 30th June, 1875 ; giving the locality whence imported, and the port where discharged, he supplemented by a return showing the quantity of coal imported annually from 30th June, 1870, to 30th June, 1873. Agreed to. RETURN OF NAMES OP PEOPLE DROWNED IN SEW ZEALAND RIVERS AND STREAMS. Mr. O’NEILL moved for a return of the names of all persons who have been drowned in any river or stream in New Zealand, from 30th June, 1870, to 30th June last, giving the name of such river or stream, and of the province in which it is situated ; in continuation of a return ordered, on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Stafford, for the names of all persons drowned in any river or stream in New Zealand, from Ist January, 1810, to 30th June, 1870. He explained that Mr. Stafford in moving his motion had done so with the intention of furnishing data to guide the Government in coming to a decision as to where bridges should first be erected. He (Mr. O’Neill) had a similar intention, and desired to call the attention of the Government to many dangerous streams in which several lives were lost. Sir D. McLEAN said the return would necessarily be incomplete, owing to the difficulty of getting correct returns. Mr. C. PARKER remarked that much information could be obtained from settlers. After a few words from Mr. Andrew, who referred to the fact that many persons were drowned whose names were never ascertained, The motion was agreed to. MINING ACCIDENTS. Mr. O’NEILL moved for a return showing the number of mining accidents in New Zealand, specifying the localities, from the date of the discovery of gold, in 1857, to the 30th June last. The return to show the number of yearly accidents ; the causes, as far as known ; the verdicts at inquests, and any general remarks ; together with the names of persons killed, whether married or single, and the number of widows and children of the persons so killed ; and that, in continuation, there shall be laid before the House each session a yearly return of. all mining accidents. Agreed to.

THE ALIENATION OP CROWN LANDS. Mr. STOUT moved (1.) That in the opinion of this House, the most desirable and profitable way to dispose of the Waste Lands of the Crown is by a leasing system. (2.) That the Government should, during the recess, prepare a Bill to give effect to the above resolution. The hon. member, in introducing the motion, said objection might be taken that he was theorising, but he would point out that all great reforms were first considered from a theoretical point of view, and that in fact theory must first be tested. If a proposed reform stood this initial test, and was allowed to be good in theory, the theory was then reduced to practice. In science theory led the way, and if theory was useful to science, it was even more useful in politics. All the great political reforms in older countries had been tested theoretically before being carried out; examplesof which fact might found in the change of what was called the mercantile system, the corn laws, the ballot, the extension of the suffrage, &c. This was a question which, although it was regarded by many at the present day as a vague and intangible theory, must in the future become the great problem for politicians to solve ; and although now there might not be a sufficiently strong party to bring the question prominently before the public, yet one day there would be a party sufficiently strong to make State landlordism the law of the land. One of the first objections raised against such a system was that it was Utopian ; but it was not Utopian, it was a practical question which each day would obtrude more boldly for a practical settlement. In speaking that day he did not propose to go fully into the question, but would rather indicate the nature of the arguments to be adduced in favor of a change in old systems. For some time past an interesting discussion on the subject had been going on in England, in which many eminent political economists had taken part, and therefore, instead of troubling the House with many quotations, he should merely refer hon. members to books in which the arguments were most strongly put. For instance, Professor Caiius, John Stuart Mill, Herbert Spencer, McDonald, Professor Fawcett, and others had written able treatises on the matter, which deserved serious consideration at the hands of hon. members of that House. The opinions of all these political economists were that the system under which countries disposed of the fee simple of land was erroneous, and that even in old and longsettled countries the Government should at any cost resume ownership of the land. The condition of the land systems of England, Scotland, and Ireland had for a considerable period occupied thp earnest attention of thoughtful men, and very interesting reports on the subject had been presented to the British House of Commons, in which the working of these systems had been most unfavorably compared with the system obtaining in Prussia, where the land was disposed of, to the great benefit of the community, simply because the State was, to a certain extent, the universal landlord. The subject was not altogether new to New Zealand, for it had been before the Provincial Council of Otago, and a motion similar to that now before the House had been rejected by only three votes, fifteen having voted for and eighteen against. All schemes of a radical nature such as this were tested first by what was called “ right,” and secondly by ox-

pedieucy. The question of “ right,” perhaps, was not so important as that of expediency, hut he might just remark that Herbert Spencer, in his “ Social Statics,” entered into the question fully, amongst other things urging that the people of an existing generation had not the right of saying what the people of a future generation should do. For a people to unduly bind the hands of posterity was not right. The same writer had also shown that if the present land system were carried to the extreme, it would end in one man having the right to declare that no other person but himself should dwell in a city. Thus a private individual, if he purchased the whole of Wellington, would have the power of declaring that no other person should live in the city. Then there was the doctrine of expediency, and after all, all political questions were decided by that, for men always looked to what could be done rather than towards what should be done. In reference to the question of expediency, then, he might say it was not attended with that difficulty which hedged around a similar question in older countries, but it was of infinite importance, because the question of the disposition of land in a new country had a peculiar bearing upon the question of taxation. In regard to the matter of taxation, he thought he should be able to show that if the people of New Zealand would only conserve their lands, and instead of disposing of the fee simple merely lease them, the large revenue which in a short time would accrue from the tenancies would do away with the necessity for taxation altogether. To a certain extent such a system already existed in New Zealand, for in effect that was the policy of leaking reserves such as endowments to schools, &c. Instead of trusting to taxation to support these schools or other institutions, they were endowed, and thus a permanent revenue created by the rents paid. And why should the same principle he not generally applied. Land properly belonged to the people of a country, and shoull not be disposed of to particular individuals. The fee simple was vested iu all. They had also another interest There was what was called au economic rent, which was described as the advantages arising to the land from the increase of population and general progress of the community, and not from any action of the land laws nor the efforts of individuals. He quoted from an address delivered by John Stuart Mill to the Land Reform Association, also from Professor Cairns, and argued that, Inasmuch as the value of land increased, not from the efforts of individuals, hut from the progress of the State, society, and not individuals, should be entitled to receive the benefit. He also quoted from McDonald’s essay on “Land System," showing that land owes its value not to the labor expended upon it, but to the labor expended upon building railways and bouses, and which mi»ht have been expended even in opposition to the wishes of those benefited. For instance, railways iu this colony had been made against the wishes of land proprietors, yet the proprietors of those properties had been enriched, though their efforts had been directed against the progress of the colony. If these properties had been so enhanced by the State, then the State should reap the benefit. He replied to arguments which had been adduced in opposition to the theory; one by Greg, that the best men should enjoy the land. Under the present system the best men did not enjoy the land, for if they looked over the list of scientific and literary men in the old country, it would be found that pretty well all those men had to earu their living by their scientific or literary attainments, so that a monopoly of land had done nothing towards raising up a class of superior men, and, as a fact, the best men did not enjoy the land. Then again, it had been said by Ruskin, amongst others, that if there was a desire to settle the land men must be given a fixity of tenure or a freehold, and also, that if this were not given there would be no chance of the land being improved. Up to the present time who had done the most good for this colony, who had fought when fighting was necessary, who had effected improvements in the estates of the colony ? Without a doubt the tenants. That he thought was a sufficient reply to those who urged that tenants would not improve the land, and that without a fixity of tenure there could be no real progress iu the work of settlement. Tenants could be easily induced to make improvements if a system of compensation were introduced. The system of renting was, to a certain extent, in force in Otago, and much benefit had been derived from it. There there was au income of something like £60,000 from pastoral tenancies, and if, when these leases fell in, at the utmost in about ten years, the rentals were submitted to public competition, they would bring in close upon a quarter of a million annually. The fact was, if the Government would adopt this plan, the Colonial Treasurer would soon have so much money that the difficulty would be to know wbat should be done with it. (A laugh.) That was one way in which the question could be argued. Another was this : that by the present system was being raised up a capitalist class. He did not intend to speak against the capitalists, because he recognised the fact that capital was just as necessary as labor, but be did not think it was proper that the millions of money spent by the colony in improving the lands should find its way into the pockets of those to whom that House, by its present policy, was giving a monopoly of land. What was present legislation doing ? Merely following the example of older notions, who were now suffering for their follies in respect to land legislation, and creating a class of landlords, who in time to come would grind their tenants down, as had been the custom of landlords in old countries, and which had been one of the great reasons for emigration. Why should such a system be perpetuated ? He referred to Canterbury province, and spoke of large tracts of land taken up by individuals, which should have been reserved to form homes for thousands of people instead of being mere sheep . walks, and contended that the present legislation was vicious from a politicoeconomic point of view, and detrimental to the interest of New Zealand, which could never become a nation under such circumstances. The evil effects of the system were becoming felt in America now that the term of “going out west” had been almost reduced to a misnomer by the scarcity of land. Statesmen saw they had made a mistake—the best of the land was gone—and now attention was being drawn to the necessity of remedying the present monopolies. Soon in Now Zealand, too, the agitation would commence, and upon such a scale as would exceed the agitation in other countries, so that it would be found that the land question, instead of being at au end after the waste lands were disposed of, would but then commence. Mr. Stout then passed on to say that the State had the power to resume possession because it never absolutely parted with possession, for, as Herbert Spencer had said, power was always reserved to review the value of the tenure of land. If laud was required for railways, canals, or other similar works, proprietors were compelled to give up possession. Therefore, if the State could interfere in this manner, it could also resume possession if it chose. The State being the landlord would not deprive labor of its reward. The tenant would be rewarded to the full extent of his labor, but capitalists would not be rewarded for something they had never done, or enriched to a degree they had neither expected nor deserved. Speculation in the lands of the colony would be discouraged. What induced monied men to scour the country in search of land, buying a section here aud a section there ? They never wished to cultivate it—there was never the slightest attempt at tillage. They bought merely as a speculation, knowing that as the country progressed they would be able to sell for double and treble the cost, and derive a profit which the State was entitled to. In concluding, he wished to say that he had no hope of the motion being carried, but he trusted there would bo a discussion, and that at the next elections the people would take an interest iu the matter, and that gradually a feeling would spring up that labor had its rights as well as capital. If hon. members wished for a really good laud system for New Zealand, to prevent a ruinous taxation, to secure to the colony the full advantageous effects of the public works scheme, they would give the matter full consideration. As it was, the benefit of the public works

scheme was lost to the colony as a whole, for particular individuals reaped the chief benefit. To have been a statesmanlike scheme, it should have embraced au element which would have secured to the people generally the benefit of the increased value of property. He should like to see New Zealand take the initiative in this matter, feeling sure that the result would be such that many nations would be proud to follow the example set. He hoped hon. members would refer to the arguments which he had indicated, and which were put by the various authors he had mentioned more forcibly than he could hope to do, and if they did this, he believed they would see that the benefits, financial and social, to be gained from a change of system were such, that if adopted in this colony, a new theory would be inaugurated in government, and a prosperity and happiness attained which had never been seen hitherto. (Cheers.) The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said all must have listened with pleasure to the last speech, and although the question had not yet reached a practical stage of its existence, he felt convinced it would attract more notice in time to come. But for the present it was not in a practical shape. Even the hon. member himself must admit it was but in a doctrinaire stage, and could not be fairly entertained by any Government, therefore he hoped the motion would be withdrawn. The Government were certainly not prepared to legislate on such a principle, and were not even prepared at the present to discuss the question on the many phases it presented. No doubt, political economy was a groat science, but it was a science which as yet was comparatively new, and in contemplating the writings of political economists one was inevitably led to the conclusion that what might he called the instinctive side of questions had been left untouched, and that although political economists professed to seek the greatest good of the greatest number, still to a great extent they had neglected the cause of happiness in man. Now, we were in a new country, and it must be remembered that the only inducement for people to.leave the great hives of civilisation in the old country was that strongest of all instincts in the human breast—the desire to own a portion of the soil. There could be no doubt that the idea of being able to establish a homo to hand down to his children, and which to some extent he might call absolutely his own, was the greatest incentive to a man to leave his kindred, and cast his lot with the nations of the South. (Cheers.) The hon. member had quoted largely from the writings of Mill, Cairns, Spencer, aud others whose works always had had great weight, and whose opinions should always be very carefully considered. But those men were writers who, he might say, had had to a very great extent to fight their way iu darkness just as men were now feeling there way in all branches of science, and no doubt in their investigations they had frequently stepped forward here and there in error, and had felt bound to retrace their steps. Therefore, it would not be wise in colonies to follow these advanced writers till they had a clear view of where they were going. Indeed, it would be rash to do so, until it was seen how far their theories had been endorsed by the experience of older nations in the world. Some of Spencer’s theories were of such a nature that they could not be followed in a practical world; and again, some of his theories were such that it was questionable whether the hon. member for Caversham would be disposed to recommend their adoption. If he (Mr. Bowen) recollected aright, Mr. Spencer, in his work on Representative Government, had said that it was extreme folly in a constituency to send any lawyer to represent them in Parliament. (A laugh.) There was another point to be considered. With regard to the statement that they were, by the present land system, creating a class similar to that iu old countries such as England, it would be remembered that that danger was in a high degree obviated by the fact that here all were given a fair start. It was of more importance to give all a fair start than to institute an order of things under which all would bo brought to a dead level. Again, with regard to the question as to how far a man should profit by the improvement of property where such improvement had not been effected by his own exertions, that was a most difficult question. It would seem almost absolutely impossible to know where to draw the line. If a man acquired property at ail, probably he would have acquired it through exertions of his own. If that were admitted, he could not see how a man was to be debarred from benefiting afterwards by the exertions of other men’s labor. If he put his capital to a beneficial use, he must benefit by it though he did not labor. For instance, he might take shares in a goldmining company. He would contribute capital alone ; others would contribute labor, yet he could not be deprived of his shares if by the value of other person’s labors they became increased in value to the extent of 10 or 100 per cent. Passing on to discuss the leasing system, he believed that a system of leasing would occasion one perpetual agitation respecting land, and as to the glowing prophesy respecting a plethoric Treasury and a happy Treasurer, that might not be an unmixed good, for if the Treasurer were so flush of money, less interest would be taken iu politics by the people. (A laugh.) It was a good thing, he thought, that the taxpayer should know where the shoe pinched, and however pleasant it would be for the Treasurer to have plenty of money, the political health of the people would not be so good. (A laugh.) No doubt the question was of great importance, but he did not think it attracted more than what might be called a philosophical interest as yet, and he. trusted the hon. gentleman would withdraw the motion. Mr. BALLANCE having moved the adjournment of the debate, it was adjourned till Wednesday next. THE INTERIM REPORT OP REPORTING DEBATES COMMITTEE. Mr. STEWARD moved that the interim report of the Reporting Debates Committee be taken into consideration. He said the committee having gone into the matter had decided it would he best to stop the practice, aud had seen no reason to alter that decision. Mr. O’CONOR opposed the motion. Ho said he thought it a great pity that the speeches of hon. members should be buried in Hansard, and he believed the Government Printer would experience no difficulty so long as the practice was limited. It now being 5.30, the debate was adjourned till after the disposal of the orders of the day, and the House adjourned for refreshments. On resuming, ORDERS OP THE DAT. The House proceeded to the consideration of the orders of the day. The Bankruptcy Acts Amendment Bill, second reading, was made an order of the day for Wednesday next. The debate on the question, that this House will, to-morrow, resolve itself iuto committee of the whole, to consider of presenting a respectful address to his Excellency the Governor, praying that he will recommend to the House to make provision tor the sum of £616 13s. Id., to carry out the recommendation of the select committee on waste lands, iu the matter of the petition of Henry Robert Russell, was adjourned for a week. The Christchurch District Drainage Bill was read a third time and passed. The House went into committee on the Highway Boards Empowering Act Amendment Bill (No. 2), which was amended, reported, and amendments ordered to bo considered on Wednesday next. The Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill was committed. With regard to clause 8, which provides that all by-laws framed by the Municipal Council of Christchurch shall be submitted to the Governor through the Secretary of State, considerable discussion arose. Sir George Grey, Messrs. Bunnv, Sheehan, Stout, and others spoke against the clause, contending that it endangered the liberties of the people, aud that the Council were quite competent to make their own by-laws which affected merely the citizens within the borough boundaries. The clause was ultimately postponed. A division ■was taken on au amendment proposed by Mr. Stout, that burgesses be entitled to one vote only for the election of Mayor. Tho amend-

meat was carried by 25 to 19. At this stage the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday next. Orders of the day Nos. 7,8, and 9 were postponed. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS LOAN ACT. The Municipal Corporations Loan Act second reading was moved by Mr. Ballance. The Bill provided for giving borrowing powers to municipal corporations throughout the colony, the borrowed money to be expended on reproductive works only. Unless the House was prepared to take upon itself the numberless small Bills that would otherwise be brought up, some such general measure as this should receive its careful consideration. He believed the time had come for the consolidation of the various measures referring to municipal corporations. The powers contained in tins Bill were not excessive, but it it wore passed, the corporations would be in a more independent position than at present, while it would be to the advantage of the burgesses. He imped the House would affirm the principle of the Bill, and that the Government would either adopt it or embody its principle in their general measure. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said the Government recognised the necessity of consolidating the various municipal laws, and entirely agreed with the principle of the present Bill, which should receive their most earnest consideration, and they would be prepared to introduce a Bill of that kind. Mr. SHEPHARD objected to the _ Bill, because it was necessary that the sanction of Parliament should be obtained to the borrowing of money by municipal corporations. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD supported the Bill, which he considered was one the necessity of which was paramount. M. WHITE supported the Bill, and pointed out to the hon. member for Waimea, that it would be easier to obtain the sanction of the House to the borrowing of money than the sanction of the people. Mr. DONALD REID held opinions similar to those expressed by the last speaker, and was sorry to see the hon. member for Rangitikei content to wait till a general measure should bo brought in by the Government. He hoped the Bill would be proceeded with. _ It was in print, and would no doubt receive ample support. Messrs. Macandrew and Sheehan spoke in support of the measure. Mr. WALES referred to clause 9 amongst other clauses of the Bill which he considered might be amended. He was of opinion that lenders should only have a lien over the property for which the money had been borrowed, instead of being a charge on all estates property and elfoots of the corporations. Mr. ANDREW would support the second reading, but hoped the mover would withdraw the Bill now, so that it could be brought down next session as a general measure, to be prepared by the Government during the recess. In replying, Mr. Ballance said he should be happy to carry the Bill through this session. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday next. WELLINGTON TOLLGATES BILL, The House went into Committee on the Wellington Tollgates Bill. Mr. BUNNY proposed to amend clause 2, which provided that tolls in the schedule annexed be deemed to be, and to have been, from and after November, 1873, the tolls authorised to be collected, by leaving out the words “ Ist day of November, 1873,” with a view of inserting the words “August, 1875.” A division was taken, the amendment being carried. Mr. ANDREW objected to the Act as having a retrospective action, and it would be unjust upon those coach owners who had triumphed in the cases in which they were sued for tolls. He moved that no tolls shall be recoverable under tbis Act which may have become due at any date prior to this Act coming into operation. Mr. BUNNY would state the real merits of the case, and detailed the circumstances connected with the tollgate litigation. As to the present Bill, it was only retrospective to the extent of about one month. The mail coaches were exempted from paying toll by their contract, and no wrong or hardship would be inflicted upon any one. A division was taken on Mr. Andrew’s motion, which was negatived by 21 to 6. Mr. ANDREW then moved the following addition to the Bill :—“ In order that the charges of the Post-office may not be unnecessarily increased by the addition of other charges of a public nature, be it enacted that no toll shall be demanded for any horses or carriages of whatever description employed in carrying or guarding mails or expresses, under the authority of the Postmaster-General of New Zealand, or in returning back from carrying or guarding the same.”

Motion lost. The last line of the schedule having been struck out, The CHAIRMAN reported the corrections, and the House then adjourned.