PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4514, 8 September 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, September 7. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at two o’clock. PETITIONS. The Hon. Mr. BONAR presented a petition signed by 181 landowners in the vicinity of Water of Leith, Dunedin, praying for the ' diversion of the streams running into the said water, to augment the city water supply by iron pipes and not by the construction of a. reservoir as proposed by the Corporation. A petition from Blenheim was received, having reference to the election of Mayor for;’ that district. ■ MOTIONS. The Hon. Mr. BONAE ; moved, without notice, that a message be sent to the House of Representatives, asking that leave be given to Mr. T. L. Shepherd to attend before the Goldfields Committee, in order to his being examined on the Goldfields Act Amendment Bill, No. 1. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved, without notice, that a message be sent to the House of Representatives, asking that leave, be given for Messrs. Reid and Macandrew tb._ attend the Waste Lands Committee, in order., to their being examined on the provisions of the Otago Waste Lands Aet Amendment Bill. ' ■ The Hon. Dr. MENZIES moved that a message be sent to the House of Representatives, asking that Sir Donald McLean, Mr. Rolleston, and Mr. Reid, should attend the Select Committee of the Legislative Council appointed to inquire,into the question as to whether the provisions of the Disqualification Act had been infringed. All three motions were carried. MESSAGES. The Hon. the SPEAKER announced that he had received messages from the House of Representatives, giving Mr. Reid permission to attend the Goldfields Committee, and Mr. Thomas Kelly to attend the Taranaki Waste Lands Committee. MESSAGE PROM THE GOVERNOR.’ : A message' ffom the Governorre the Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill, 1875, was received, and its consideration made an order of the day for next (this) day. , NAPIER GAS BILL. , Private business haying been called on, The Hon. Mr. STOKES moved the .second reading of the Napier Gas Bill. Some discussion took place, and the "Bill was read a second time. _ PAPERS AND REPORTS. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN laid on the table report from the Engineer-in-Chief on railway surveys, report of Mr. Holloway, and further ’ papers from the Agent-General. A GRIEVANCE. The Hon. Mr. NGATATA asked the Hon. the Premier if he would lay upon the table of the Council any documents showing the authority under which a Crown Grant was issued to the Bishop of New Zealand for native land at Porirua for educational purposes ? The hon. gentleman spoke at some length, considering that a great wrong had been done. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN replied that the better course for the hon. gentleman to pursue, if he had anything to complain of, would be to move for the production of all papers in connection with the matter. He might state now, however, that he had been unable to find, up to the present, any other authority than the record of the issue of the Crown grant. PALMERSTON WATERWORKS BILL. The Palmerston Waterworks Bill was read a third time and passed. MINING COMPANIES VALIDATION ACT.

The Registration of Mining Companies Validation Act was read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. CHUBBIN LAND PCECHASB BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of the above BilL Carried, and referred to Waste Lands Committee. WELLINGTON ATHENiEUM. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL. moved the second reading of the Wellington Athenseum and Mechanics’ Institute Incorporation Bill, and in doing so remarked that it provided for giving sufficient powers to the trustees to borrow money for effecting improvements in the property and increasing its value by building on it. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES held that property of the kind should not be jeopardised by giving power to mortgage and to sell, especially when the site waa so valuable. '■ ■' ' The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE pointed out that no sale could take place except on ~ the consent of a majority of the body corporate, and that the proceeds were to be de- - voted to purposes for which the endowment _ was made. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES supported the Bill, and considered that the great objection of ; Mr. Holmes, namely, the value of the section, was an argument in favor of the Bill, which , proposed to lease the shops in connection with the building, the rent from which would pay off the mortgage, and leave a . margin for a sinking fund if necessary. He took it, moreover, that the. trustees, being a popular body , elected for the management of the institution should have the supreme control thereof. The Bill was read a second time, to be committed presently. OAJIAUU WATERWORKS BILL. Some discussion ensued on the motion to read this Bill a second time. The Bill provides that power be given to the Corporation- ■ of Oamaru to borrow £60,000 for the purpose of constructing waterworks to supply the town with water from the Waitaki River. The Bill was read a second time, to be committed to-morrow. PLANS OP TOWNS REGULATION BILL. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE, in charge of this Bill, which had been carried through the House of Representatives by Mr. Charles O’Neill, moved its second reading. The Hon. Colonel BRETT considered the Bill had been carelessly drawn up, referring more particularly to a clause providing for the digging of holesinwhich todeposit nightsoil and dirt, which clause he characterised as preposterous and outrageous. Other matters there were to which he objected, and he hoped they would be remedied in committee. The Hon. Mr. MILLER highly approved of the Bill, and thought it would have been well had the Bill been introduced some twenty years ago. He had no doubt that the little difficulties which troubled the Eon. Colonel Brett would be settled in committee.

The Hon. Mr. BONAR supported the Bill. The Hon. Mr. HART supported the Bill, hut thought there should be some minimum width for streets fixed. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN cordially supported the second reading. Read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. AUCKLAND CITY ENDOWMENT BILL. The second reading of the above was made an order of the day for the day following. NELSON CITY LOAN BILL. This Bill, to authorise a loan of .£IO,OOO for extension of gas and water works, was read a second time, and ordered to be committed tomorrow. ANN HOOD GRANT BILL. This Bill, introduced by the Hon. Dr. Pollen, is to give a Mrs. Hood the title to certain land, the right to which Mrs. Hood had acquired when she was a Mrs. Murch, a widow. Both Mr. and Mrs. Hood had left the colony, and the land had remained for many years in a neglected condition, but now it had become valuable, as it was required for railway purposes ; and as the couple had separated, and nothing could be ascertained as to the whereabouts of Mr. Hood, it was proposed to take the present step. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE apprehended that an injustice might be done Mr. Hood, by depriving him of that which ha became entitled to on marrying, and suggested that the Bill should be referred to a select committee after the second reading, which he would not oppose. CAMPBELLTOWN ATHEN.EOII BILL. This Bill was to be further considered in committee, but was discharged from the order

|>ap6x } on the motion of tbs Hou,‘Dr,"MBSiSiKSj j and ' made on order of the day for next (this) day. IN COMMITTEE. The Council then went into committee on the following, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again the day following ;—Wellington Athenaeum and Mechanics’ Institute Incorporation Bill, Plans of Towns Regulation’ Bill, Goldfields Act Amendment Bill, No. 2, Taranaki Waste Bands Bill, Wellington Harbor Reserves Sale Bill. The adjourned at 4.50 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, September 7. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. REEVES to move, in committee oh the Abolition of Provinces Bill, as an amendment to section 16, —The Colonial Treasurer shall, for the purpose of providing the several Boards of Works hereafter to be constituted with the means of carrying on public works within the districts, from time to time pay over to the said Boards one gross fourth part of so much of the revenue as shall accrue from the sale and leasing of Crown lands within the-several provincial districts of the colony in which such Boards of Works are or may be constitutedMr. O’CONOR to move in committee that the following be added to clause ,5 of the Abolition Bill: —“Wherever not less than threefifths of the registered electors entitled to vote in the election of members of the House of Representatives, resident within any district whereof the area shall not be less than 500,000 acres, shall petition the Governor in Council to establish a new provincial district comprising such district, the Governor in Council, by order published in the New Zealand Gazette, shall, with all convenient speed, establish such provincial district accordingly ; subject, nevertheless, to the fulfillment of the following conditions, that is to say :—l. Such petition shall be signed by at least 150 registered electors, exclusive of persons of- the native -race, and shall contain a sufficient description of the district proposed to be comprised in the new provincial district. 2. There shall be at the date of the order in Council establishing any provincial district under this Act,apopulation bona jide resident within such; district, within an area of not less than 1,000,000 acres, of at least 1000 inhabitants, exclusive of aboriginal inhabitants of the colony. 3. Such new district may comprise parts of more than one provincial district.” Sir GEORGE GREY to move, —For all correspondence and memoranda between Mr. Thos. Russell, as representing the Shortland Sawmill Company, and the Government, relating to the timber leases held by the company over the Opango, Mangarehu, Hotoritori, and other blocks at the Thames. Sir GEORGE GREY to move,; —For copies of two opinions of Solicitor-General regarding power of Governor’s deputy to take;by proclamation a block of land out of the Tairua goldfield; together with copies of all correspondence and telegrams connected with those opinions. PETITIONS AND PAPERS. Several petitions were received and papers presented. QUESTIONS. In reply to Mr. Harrison, the Hon. Mr. Reynolds, for the Minister of Justice, said the; Government did not intend to appoint a Deputy-Commissioner of Stamp Duties at Greymouth. In reply to Mr. Kolleston, the Hon. Major Atkinson said the whole of his correspondence relating to the raising of the .£1,000,000 loan was in the hands of the printer. In reply to Mr. J. C. Brown, the Hon. Mr. Reynolds said Government did intend to erect a telegraph and post-office at Havelock, Otago, in connection with the railway station there. In reply to Mr. Bradshaw, the Hon. Mr. Richardson said the Government did intend, during the present session, to bring in a Bill to amend the Adulteration of Food Act. In reply to Mr. Murray, the Hon. Mr. Reynolds said the Government did not purpose to further amend ; the law relating' to overloading vessels. He explained the provisions of the Shipping Act, and gave a synopsis of the various by-laws’ou the subject. Tn one case recently the Government had taken action, and finding the law quite sufficient, did not propose to legislate further. In answer- to -Mr.- Stout,' the -Hon.”Major Atkinson said an opportunity had been given shipowners to compete with the New Zealand Shipping Company in obtaining the contract for the conveyance of emigrants from Bondon to New Zealand. PRIVILEGE AGAIN. Mr. BUCKBAND moved a motion to the effect that it be an instruction to the committee appointed to consider whether members who had dealt with the Government in land come under Disqualification Act, also to enquire whether officers of the Provincial Councils who held a seat in the House did not come under the sth clause of the Disqualification Act? This section, set forth: that no person being a nominee of any officer of the Government had a right to a seat in the House. He believed, on the authority of Dr. Featherston, that a Superintendent was an executive officer* of the General Government, and consequently that all officers appointed by the Superintendents came under the Disqualification Act. A long discussion ensued, the following-hon. members taking part:—Messrs. Maeandrew, Reid, O’Conor, Creighton, Atkinson, Sheehan, and Stafford; Sir George Grey (who thought the Government should speak its mind, for if they believed there was anything in the resolution, they should stop the Abolition Bill at once—(A laugh.)—the hen. Mr. Richardson (who said it was not the duty to usurp the position of the House) ; Messrs. T. L. Shepherd, Stout, Buckie, Wood, Kelly, McGlashan, and Outhbextson (who suggested that the hon. member making the proposition should take the matter to the Supreme Court, and sue for the penalty prescribed by the Act.) Mr, Buckland then applied for leave to withdraw the motion, saying, he should take other steps to sift the matter. Mr. Macandrew objected to withdraw an amendment made by him, seeking to make the motion apply to Superintendents. A division was taken on the amendment, and it was rejected, there being 23 ayes and 40 noes. ■ The debate on the main question was then resumed, and after a few words from Messrs. Montgomery and T. Kelly, the motion was allowed to be withdrawn. THE ABOLITION BILL. The Hon. Major ATKINSON, in moving that the House resolve itself into committee to consider the Abolition Bill, said, before proceeding to consider the matter under discussion, he must express his thanks to the House for its indulgence in having allowed him to accept this opportunity of replying to the arguments brought forward in a previous debate, instead of pressing him to reply at a late hour last sitting, when closing the debate on that occasion. He did not propose upon the present occasion to follow the speeches of all the Opposition members, for the very sufficient reason that the whole of them had been successfully answered by hon. gentlemen who had addressed the House from the Ministerial side. But he wished to except from the category that of the hon. member for Akaroa (Mr. Montgomery). He could not go into the speech of the hon. member for Parnell, as that gentleman had, as upon previous occasions, brought figures which were but fragmentary. He did not deal with the question as a whole, and therefore it would be a waste of time to follow him, and he (Major Atkinson) should deal specially with the speech made by the hon. member for Akaroa who had brought forward all that the hon. member for Parnell had subsequently adduced. The speech of the hon. member for Akaroa, all ■ must have heard with very great satisfaction, for he had undoubtedly grappled with the finances of the colony as a whole, and had announced unmistakably that the revenues of the colony should be used to meet the necessities and requirements of the whole of the colony. Such a declaration, coming from that gentleman, was a source of very great gratification to him (the Treasurer), and

another declaration was equally gratifying—that the land revenue should be localised and assisted, by relieving, it of some charges, now imposed upon it by law. H e not only recognised those facts, but another, which must be apparent to any other gentleman who well considered the condition of the colouy—that the large and wealthy provinces of Otago and Canterbury had already incurred liabilities to the full exteut of their revenues—(No) —and that the land revenues of these provinces would for all practical purposes in two years be taken to meet liabilities imposed, not by the colony, but voluntarily undertaken by those provinces themselves (No, no.) He should be able to prove it presently. The hon. member had recognised this, and further, that whether the provinces were abolished or not, the only possible way bj which relief could be obtained was by a system of colonial finance —that alone by colonial finance could national disaster be avoided, and he had proved by his own figures and deduction from; his figures that abolition was actually necessary. His hon. friend had began his speech by relating a history of the financial condition of the colony from 1870 up to the present time. It was not his (the Colonial Treasurer’s) intention to follow him through that history, but he should content himself by stating what Wits the real position of the provinces in respect to the Public Works Scheme as it now stood according to law, and had practically stood since 1870. The position was this: that the laud funds of the various provinces were liable to the whole of the interest and charges upon all sums of money expended upon railways and. other public works within the respective provincial boundaries. That was the position according to law, and entirely irrespective of abolition or no abolition—a fact which had apparently been altogether overlooked by the gentlemen on the other side, who had seemed to think that various charges upon localities were in some way connected with the Abolition Bill. The only effect of abolition, however, would be to relieve the laud fund to an appreciable exteut. His hon. friend then took the years 1877 and 1878, pro- . ceeding to apply fhe crucial test of expenditure and ways and means in those years to the financial proposals of the Government ; and he had proved satisfactorily, at least to his own mind, that the Government proposals would not stand such a test, and that there would be a large deficiency. Now he (the Colonial Treasurer) proposed to give his view of the matter, and place before the House what he conceived would be the financial position of the colony, and some of, the provinces, in 1877 and 1878. Before proceeding to that, however, he should like to say a few words with regard to the land fund.. His hou. friend had estimated the land fund for the years 1877-8 as likely to amount to the average of the last six yearn, namely, £580,000. He was prepared to accept that estimate as reasonable, but he would at once say that the Government were quite determined that, as far as they were concerned, no land should be sold for revenue purposes. (Cheers.) They were fully alive to the duty and necessity of fixing upon the land a large number of the immigrants who had been introduced at so great a cost, aud also of fixing upon the land the young men bom in the colony and, as far as possible, reasonable provision would be made for them, and land left available for their occupation. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, he would accept the estimate of the hon. member for Akaroa of £580,000 as reasonable) aud he should be disposed to distribute the revenue arising from various provinces as follows Auckland, £60,000 ; Taranaki, £23,000; Wellington, £100,000; Hawke’s Bay, £17,000; Nelson, £17,000; Marlborough, £16,000; Canterbury, £145,000 ; Westland, £12,000 ; Otago, £200,000. These were the amounts of laud revenue he anticipated each of the provinces respectively to have in 1877 and 1878, and he thought the estimate was not exaggerated but would be fully realised, always supposing care was taken in the administration of the lands. It was necessary to state that there was nearly £4,000,000, balance of loans, (not £466,000, as the hon. member for Clutha had stated), to be spent in public works ; aud when this was spent there would be chargeable upon the various provinces, under the present law, amounts as follows: "—Otago, £2,500,000; Canterbury (inclusive of railways and other public works which the Government were to take over), £2,000,000 ; Wellington, £2,250,000, and so on ; but it was unnecessary for him to state the figures as to the other provinces, because he intended -only to examine the position of the larger provinces. He would also state that in making the calculations with which he should directly trouble the House he had deducted 3 per cent, per annum as a probable return from the railways three years from the present time, over and above working expenses. It was possible that this estimate might be slightly too high. He was not prepared to say it was not; but he would point out - that the only effect of it being too high would be this ; that a still larger sum would have to be raised by the provinces, either as a charge against the laud fund, or by means of local rates. There could be no doubt that a very grave question arose from the consideration of the proposal of the Government, namely, how far it was possible for the land fund to be relieved from present charges by some means to be devised. For himself, without committing the Government to any scheme, he would say that the Government were fully alive to the importance of the matter, and they should look upon it as their duty during the recess to consider how it could be done — how the land fund could be relieved from some charges, not put upon it by the Abolition Bill, but by law, in order that it might be placed in a position enabling it to bear the cost of construction of local public works. With these remarks, he proposed to consider the probable position of Otago as it would be affected in 1877 and 1878, and in listening to his figures the House must recollect that he had adopted, to a certain extent, the estimates for the present financial year, which he had that day laid upon the table of the House ; but he had eliiminated a number of doubtful sources of revenue, such as sale of Government buildings, &c., and he had also increased the amount of capitation money, estimating it, not upon the basis of present population, but upon the population as it would be in 1877 and 1878. The revenue then would be £200,000 a year. This, with the increased capitation money, would make a total revenue of £344,474. The expenditure would be £357,567, leaving a deficiency of £13,093. Mr. REID : That’s colonial financing.

The Hon. Major ATKINSON : No, it is provincial financing.- He trusted his friend would be able to prove the calculation fallacious, but he thought it would be difficult. This was not owing to any charges to be placed on the land fund by the Abolition Bill, but simply charges imposed upon the land fund by the present law. How was the province to grant pound for pound to the road boards or continue public works having a deficiency of £13,000 ? To his mind this was instructive. Then he came to Canterbury, and here again had based his calculations upon the provincial estimates which he had laid upon the table that afternoon, and he had also rejected all extraordinary or uncertain sources of revenue, and had added increased capitation allowance in proportion to what might be expected to be the increased number of the population. He found that the total income would be £290,972, the expenditure would be £240,000 odd, leaving a balance in round numbers of £60,000, from which to execute public works and make grants to road boards and municipalities. If these figures were right, and he did not think he could be contradicted when he said they were, it was quite evident that what he had said at the beginning was correct, that the land funds of the provinces had already by law been pledged to the utmost amount they were capable of bearing, and that without laud being £old for purposes of revenue there would be practically nothing for these provinces at the end of two years from now. That was entirely irrespective of the question of abolition at all, and supposing they were unable to dab their hands into the colonial purse meanwhile, a course which he was sure the hon. member for Akaroa would not consent to, tor he had spoken very strongly of tho sins of those Colonial Treasurers and

members of .the House who in past times had allowed them to do so, and had, thereby done a . great wrong to the State. It was also - evident that there could bo no great inducement for a Colonial Treasurer looking to the futuie, to endeaVor to take over these two provinces for the sake of gain. The hon. gentleman, after hearing the figures quoted, would see that no Colonial Treasurer would take the responsibility if the only object in view was to get a possible £36,000, and he would feel that the argument in respect to these two rich provinces, which were supposed to be so much coveted, must quite fall to the ground. With these facts before the House, he invited hon. members to consider the general question, which had been so well but so fallaciously put by the hon. member for Akaroa. First, he would take the total expenditure and the total receipts, out of which the hon. member had produced the large deficit of £249,000. If he (the Treasurer) had been a nervous man, no doubt he would have been much alarmed by the hou. gentleman’s deductions, but as he was not of such : a /temperament, and moreover had a little knowledge of the figures) he had not been alarmed, and must now submit that the hon. gentleman was entirely wrong. The first item on the hon- members list of receipts he must entirely disagree with, for reasons which he would presently show, and which, he trusted, would be sufficiently clear to the House. The hon. gentleman proposed to take as the Consolidated Revenue of the year the sum £1,460,000, thus doing away with the fact of increasing revenue, and reducing the revenue to the level of the revenue collected in the worst , year of depression the colony ever experienced, viz., i 1870 and 1871; when the Customs were at, the lowest ebb. He could not agree that the Customs would be reduced to such an exteut as the hon. member prophesied. What data had the hon. member for such a calculation ? It must be remembered that the Government were going to spend fully £2,000,000 thisyearforpublio works, and nearly £2,000,000 next year. And besides this, large sums would be spent by Provincial Governments, especially Canterbury, and more or less by all provinces, so that this year there would be spent considerably over £2,500,000, and next year fully £2,000,000. This being the case, it was perfectly reasonable to suppose- that the Customs revenue would certainly, increase this year a good deal, and next year slightly. He did hot wish to put too glowing a color upon the statement, because no doubt the hon. member had really decided to awaken the country to the possibility of its being in a fix. He did not desire to exaggerate in the least, but he could not acquiesce in what the hon member- had said. ■ Even supposing there was no such expenditure as that proposed, the Customs would not fall so rapidly as had been stated, but would diminish gradually, and it would take three or four years for the country to reach the lowest state of depression. He took that as a matter beyond dispute. The people for some time past had been earning a high rate of wages, and must do so for the next two years. During that period they had acquired habits which they could not possibly throw off suddenly and absolutely within one or two years. If they took the average revenue for the past ten years, they would be perfectly safe ; and iu making his estimate for 1877 and 1878 he had done that, and taken £20,000 off the estimate for the present year. That would be a perfectly reasonable amount, much more so than the figures of. the hon. member for Akaroa, for he would reduce it from £1,750,000 to £1,460,000. If such a crisis should unhappily arise, it would, bring the colouy and almost everybody in it to a state of bankruptcy. It would mean that wool would become worthless, aud that com would be unsaleable. He could not conceive such a thing, and must absolutely refuse to make provision for such a change. If such distress should arise in the colony, then we would have to meet it, aud have to apply an extraordinary remedy for an extraordinary disease ; but there was no reason to anticipate such a state of affairs,aud from present informationheshould estimate the Consolidated Revenue for 1877 aud 1878 at £1,730,000, or £20,000 less than that of the present year, and should accept the estimate of provincial revenue at £75,000. He had already stated that he should suppose the railways to yield 3 per cent. ; but, as he had already shown, it was a matter of local concern whether they did yield this amount or not, because if they did not a correspondingly larger amount . would have to be charged against the land funds of the provinces in which they were situated. The receipts from railways, therefore, would be about £226,500, the amount spent in railways being about £7,500,000. After glancing at some of the details of the income, he passed on to say that with regard to expenditure he should also have to disagree with the hou. member, and iu this respect he thought the House would agree with him—that neither this Government nor any other Government would be allowed by the House to bring forward increased estimates in prospect of a falling revenue. (Hear, hear.) It was quite impossible that the House would permit such a thing, and therefore the hon. member’s calculation as to the increased cost of departments was completely wrong. He said he purposed to keep the estimates as they were this year, and then went through the various items, mentioning amongst others that education would be set down at £150,000, instead of £l4o,ooo,asheretofore, the reason of theincrease being this, that the Government held that it would be a duty to make proper provision for the education of the children all over the colony, and so remedy the defects in this respect which had cropped up under the provincial system. He indicated a total expenditure of £2,433,656, to cover which there was a revenue of £2,609,000 ; and thus it would be seen that after making provision for the whole of the services of the colony, there would be a surplus of £175,344 instead of a deficiency of £249,009, as the hon. member for Akaroa had made out. He contended that the figures he had submitted would be found correct, and that it would be seen that the sums he had mentioned would be sufficient to provide efficient government for the whole of the colony. It would be observed by the hon. member that in thus estimating what he should receive from the land fund, he had, as it were, taken the land fund as a whole, and although he had not treated it in the same way as the hon. member had, yet he had brought out the same result within £3OOO. He might be told that in the way he had treated it it would not be fair, because he had not allocated surpluses to the various provinces, hut with the permission of the House, he would just show how the various provinces would be affected by this change, and show what deficiency or surplus there would be in each individual ease. Auckland would be unable to meet its liabilities by £36,272, Taranaki would have a surplus of £8215, Wellington a surplus of £17,398, Hawke’s Bay a deficit of £4746, Nelson a deficit of £827, Marlborough a deficit of £3978, Canterbury a surplus of £35,961 and Otago a surplusof £5754. Thus, supposing the landrevenuestobe localised, the surplus would amount in the aggregate to £67,382, while the total deficiencies would bo £64,325, which would have to be provided out of the surplus, or by any other means which the House might think right to direct. It would be the duty of the House to ascertain what were really the positions of the land funds of these provinces, and if satisfied that there was no reasonable prospect of the land funds increasing, it would be absolutely necessary to make some better provision for them. He had shown that there would be ample revenue to make provision not only for these deficiencies but also to give relief to tho laud funds of other provinces to a reasonable amount. He submitted that he had satisfactorily demonstrated that no possible advantage could be gained by the colonial revenue in the way of seizing provincial revenues, and he believed he had also shown that the prospects of tho whole colony depended upon the abolition of provinces taking place as quickly ns possible. It seemed to him—and he believed tho House would agree with him —that ho had proved that tho whole of the promises of the Government could bo fulfilled easily, without the issue of Treasury bills at all; for whilst the total deficiencies would not exceed £64,000, there was a surplus revenue to the amount of £175,000. Before sitting down, he desired to say that the proposals which the Government made the other day were made for the purpose of

showing good faith in the intention to allocate to the province from which it was derived the surplus land fund. ..That these Bills in., any way affected the principle of the measures of the Government, as hon. members opposite said, or that the Government had in any way changed front, he entirely denied. After his statement of that afternoon, he hoped the Opposition would be more chary—(a laugh)— and that they wonld not continue to make such assertions as that the Government were desirous of the land fund. The principle of the Bill, was to secure to localities a fair share of the laud fund, and, as he had previously stated, the Government would be exceedingly glad if the country were divided into shires and the surpluses of the land revenues, allocated to each by law. He trusted hon._ gentlemen opposite would turn their attention to the practical side of tli© Bill, and show, if it could be shown, that the laud fund, of these provinces was not pledged to the fullest amount it could bear. The Government had no intention of abandoning one single principle of the Bill, but intended to push it steadily forward ; and believing that it was supported by a large majority of the public throughout the country, and a majority of that House, they desired to pass it through this session. (Cheers.) Mr. MURRAY asked when would the Government be prepared to bring down the new Bills? The Hon. Major ATKINSON replied that as soon as ready the Government would ask leave of the House to introduce the Bills. Mr. MONTGOMERY combatted the arguments of the Colonial Treasurer, especially where the latter had made reference to the speech delivered by him (the speaker), and challenged the accuracy of his estimates, as he did on a former occasion. He maintained that there was a probability of the revenue falling off, especially-in the event of the price of wool falling off. As to the railway, ho contended that the estimated revenue was considerably in advance of what would be actually realised. At the conclusion of Mr. Montgomery’s speech, it being then within ten minutes of half-past five o’clock, the House took the usual adjournment. On resuming, Mr. O’RORKE rose, and said he was given to understand that preliminary discussion on the Abolition Bill was drawing to a close, so he had to avail himself of the present occasion to make a few remarks before the Bill wont into committee, as when sitting in the chair he would be debarred from discussion. The title of the Bill was sufficient to show him that no good was to be found within it. He deprecated the proposal of the hon. member for Timaru, that the legislative power should be monopolised in one central body. Sir Julius Vo"el had at one time said that such a policy meant political life and prosperity at one central point and political paralysis at the extremities. One of the stock arguments of Government supporters was that the people were in favor of a change. He denied this. In Auckland, a man whom he would not designate as a great pro-consul, but as the apostle of provincialism, had been returned at the last election, and the man of opposite opinion who put up in opposition to him, was compelled ignominiously to retire and wait for another day; and that gentleman had been found subsequently to go in for centralism, gum taxation, and was an unmitigated—a miserable failure. Did the people express themselves in favor of abolition' when they elected the hon. member for Otago ? and the same, might be said as to the member for Marlborough (Mr. Ward) and other members. He did not agree with an early remark of the Colonial Treasurer, that Auckland was a public scandal. What scandal did the province of Auckland exhibit ? Who could say that it was due to the extravagance of the Auckland Provincial Council? The scandal rested with the General Assembly, who had carried on a systematic robbery with respect to Auckland. He then referred to what was called the Thames scandal, viz., the degradation of the police to political agents to secure Mr. Williamson’s return to the Superintendency. The facts of the case were these. Mr. Gillies was elected, and why did not he, if he thought such was the case, bring ■ about the punishment of the police ; instead of doing this, however, he brought the then able Inspector under the favorable notice of the General Government. Returning aga'n to the Bill, he believed disastrous effects would follow the nomination of officers to positions of power. He admitted Provincial Councils had undergone obloquy, because they watched, lynx-eyed, every item of expenditure, in the interests of the people. What the General Government liked was lumpsums. He would ask, had not the people done their duty in electing the member for City West and others? The Hon. the Premier ought to accept the challenge held out, aud g® down with his hon. friend to the hustings, and submit himself to the voice of the people. The Abolition Bill was a whole system of bribes to compass their objects. Bribes to Wellington, bribes to Otago and Canteibury, and bribes to Superintendents—-it had been carried so far, that one Superintendent had been offered a pension. But they had not descended so low ns to he bought by promises which were as delusive as those now held ’.'out in this Bill. He foresaw if this Bill werd passed that there would follow political torpor, political stagnation, and political degradation. The Bill meant the stamping out 'of all . those grand political aspirations which ought to influence the people of the country. Mr. MAC ANDRE W said he had listened attentively to the speech of the Treasurer, which had bristled with figures. He had stated that there would bo a deficiency in Otago next year of £13,000, but did not .point out how that was to be met; and as Otago contributed one-third the revenue of the whole colony, he should like to know what was to be the result if Otago continued to bo unable to meet its engagements in successive years. As to the financial phrase of the question, it had been fully demonstrated that the statements of the Government were fallacious. He was surprised to find that no member of the Government had made any attempt to answer the arguments of the member for Parnell, and ho must therefore conclude that those were unanswerable. Ex nihilo nihil jit. The people were being deceived by a kind of political hocus pocus. They were told that the colony would gain somewhere about £29,000 by abolishing nine provinces, the maintenance of which cost but £35,000. It had been left to the hon. the Colonial Treasurer to discover the philosopher’s stone, but they were being deceived by a glamor of figures. Ha believed that a time would come, and that not far distant, when not a single sixpence of the land fund in any part of the colony would be left, notwithstanding the assertions of the Colonial Treasurer that afternoon. The only way to save it was to borrow more money, or to apply the pruning knife to the gigantic central Government. Ho would oven do away with the Californian service itself, and abolish the Native and Defence Departments. Ho was sometimes inclined to think that the sooner the Bill was passed the better, because they would more speedily get into that political chaos out of which might emerge a better order of things. But he would not do evil that good mi'dit come. Ho challenged the Government to go to the country, and concluded by avowing his intention to oppose the Bill at every stage. Mr. STOUT, after remarking on the apparent unwillingness of the Government to address the House, moved an amendment to the following effect:—“ Whereas the House has, by the second reading of the Abolition of Provinces Bill, affirmed the desirableness of effecting some change in the Constitution of the colony, and whereas the proposed change has never been considered by the people, and great differences of opinion exist as to the form such a change should take, tins House is of opinion that an opportunity should bo given to the Ministry to mature their proposals, and to submit them when matured to the constituencies, by dissolving the House; aud that in the meantime no further progress should bo made in the Abolition of Provinces Bill.” He wished to_ place on the records of the House the opinions of the members as to the question now before it. An evidence that the Government were premature in their action might be seen in the

fact that the members of the Government displayed » marked unwillingness to discuss the financial aspect of the question. It was perfectly evident that Government supporters dare not venture to discuss the financial question, because they knew not at what moment the Government might bring down statements to place that question in a totally new light. It wae an extraordinary thing that when an hon. member holding the high position of Chairman of Public Accounts Committee addressed the House he was told that his figures were grotesque, and secondly that they were fragmentary. He asked what could be the impression of those who had not the opportunity of becoming so well acquainted with the public finance as the hon. member for Parnell ? What could be the feelings of the people outside as to the subject when a phrase of that kind was applied to the statements of one who was supposed to be in a position to understand the subject of which he was treating ? It could not but leave them in a state of doubt as to the whole question. It implied that the hon. member was unacquainted with the financial position of the country. If so, he (the speaker) asked the Government to stand up and give the House their views of the question a thing they had sedulously avoided doing hitherto. : He then went on to show that the statement of the Colonial Treasurer last year did not agree with the statement made this year, and further, that the statement made at the beginning of the session did not agree With the statement made that afternoon. The Colonial Treasurer had shown that instead of the Otago land revenue being able to pay the !. charge made upon it by law, there would be a deficit of £13,000. He asked, therefore, was it fair to lead the people to believe that they were to get pound for pound on their rates out of the land revenue, and that the surplus revenue was to be expended on public works ? That statement went far to prove that the proposals of the Government were a sham, a delusion, aud a snare. The truth was, that within two years not o: ly would the land revenue be exhausted, but there would be no subsidies to road boards aud municipalities. In fact, the Government, with all their economy and saving, would have a deficiency of £13,000. He would ask what would be the reception of a candidate who should go to his constituents with such a statement ? He proceeded further to criticise the statement of the Colonial Treasurer, and said according to that statement the people would have to take into account in considering this measure whether a land tax should be imposed or not. He thought it was not too much to ask the Government to remit this question to the constituencies. Reverting to the question of constitutional power, he admitted their power, but questioned their right ns an expiring Parliament to do so, and quoted “Todd’s Parliamentary Government” to strengthen his argument. ' This Parliament could not exist longer than a few months, and it was not only a measure brought down to an expiring Parliament, but was a breach of a most solemn pledge made to the country last session. A change was proposed by a Ministry that pledged themselves only a year ago that no such change should take place. It had been stated that this was an experienced Parliament, which was capable of dealing with the question. It simply meant that certain members who were voting in opposition to the sentiments of their constituents would not be returned next Parliament, such as the members for Duns tan. Mount Ida, Wakatipu, and others. They were there to represent not the views of their constituencies, but to represent themselves, which would account for the support given by some honorable members to the Government. He asked was it reasonable that the Government should ask the House to go into committee on a Bill for the abolition of provinces, when they had not yet declared what they proposed to substitute. It was with this view that he wished to place on record the reasons he had for opposing the Bill going into committee. He mould move the amendment. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD refuted with scorn the allegation of the hon. member for Caversham, that certain members did not represent the views of their constituencies. With respect to himself, he could assure the hon.'member, or any otherhon. member, that he represented the views of his constituents. When those insinuations were made by the member for Tuapeka, he (Mr. Shepherd) had treated them with contempt, but the hon. member for < aversham had roused him to convey to the House his opinion of that hon. member, who had fallen considerably in his (Mr, Shepherd’s) estimation. He then referred to the public meetings so much talked of, to show that the majority of votes were in favor of abolition, and reviewed several members of the Opposition—the member for Tuapeka and the member for Parnell amongst them. The latter gentleman he described as a political weathercock ; and said of Mr. Macandrew that he had done more than any man to bring the affairs of the colony into an advanced state of rottenness, because he would do anything to secure the land fund of Otago. The land fund had been sacrificed, to lavish money on the settled districts. The sales of land had been pledged for three years in advance. Mr. MERVYN spoke against the amendment.

The Hon. Mr. REYNOLDS said that were he not thoroughly satisfied that he was carryingoutthe viewsof his constituents, he would not vote and act as ho did. The trust remitted to him by his constituents should be well cared for by him. He denied in toto that he had pledged himself to his constituents to oppose abolition of the provinces of the Middle Island. What he had said was this, that if at the time the abolition resolutions for the North Island were brought down those of the Middle Island had been included, he would have said “ no ;” but now that the wish for abolition was universal, he was not going to leave Otago and Canterbury to be pecked at by the rest of the colony, as would bo the case were Provincial Government retained alone in them. Sir GEORGE GREY denied that the tendency of a former speech of his had been, as alleged by the Native Minister, to bring about the disruption of the Empire ; it was the Government measures that tended that way. He warned the Government that they were approaching a stage of the measure likely to bring about a serious contest between the minority and the majority. He was determined to resist, by every means which the rules of the House allowed, a measure which ho considered monstrous. Mr. READER WOOD entreated for the opinions expressed by Mr. Reynolds the full justice those opinions deserved. Mr. REID supported the amendment, and said no matter how determined the majority might be, it would be impossible for them to obtain the passing of the Bill that session. The Hon. Mr. I'TTZHERBERT addressed the House at great length. He maintained that the promises of the Government were bribes which could not be paid, and compared the statement of the proposals as they affected the provinces to a company prospectus. The amendment was then put, and on a division was lost by a majority of 22. The votes being 44—22. COMMITTEE. The House then went into committee on the Abolition Bill, but befoi e the title of the Bill was agreed to, it was decided that progress should be reported and leave obtained to sit again. THE ABOLITION BILL. The House having resumed, progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again on Thursday at half-past 2 o’clock. The House then adjourned.