THE ABOLITION QUESTION.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4507, 31 August 1875, Page 3

THE ABOLITION QUESTION.

MEETING AT THE HUTT.

Tn pursuance of published notification, a meeting of the Hutt electors was held at the Mechanics’ Institute, Hutt, last evening, at eight o'clock. There was a large attendance, the hall being crowded, and many persons : stood outside who had not come early enough to gain admittance. Mr. McDowell presided. The Chairman, introduced the proceedings by making a few remarks of a formal character, in which he hoped the meeting would he orderly. He then read a letter from Sir George ' Grey, in reply to the request of the electors that he should attend. It stated that he bad at first purposed being present, but on reflection he had come to the conclusion that it would not be fair for him to address them, and concluded by expressing a hope that they would accord to Mr. Stafford as fair a hearing as he (Sir George Grey) had received from them. Mr. Stafford on rising was received with prolonged cheering, and commenced by referring to the letter just read to the meeting by the° chairman. It was the letter of a true gentleman, a gentleman who was actuated by earnest convictions in whatever direction he thought it right to move, but who desired that fair play should be shown to all who might hold different opinions from himself. During a long personal and official acquaintance he had never known that gentleman to attempt the suppression of opinions opposed to his own, and he entertained for him the highest respect, notwithstanding that with reference to the question now agitating the country they held opinions entirely at variance. He had to thank the meeting very much for the high favor they had done him in requesting his presence there. He had no claim whatever on that district, either on account of personal residence or by representation of the district in Parliament. AH he could claim with reference to that district he could claim with respect to Hew Zealand generally, and that was, that no part of it failed to interest him. There was no pari of the colony the opinions of which he had not earnestly studied by perusal of the public press, and he had placed himself in communication with all portions of the country. In reference to this district he had many recollections. Some nine and twenty years since he had been present at one of the greatest calamities which had ever overtaken it, when an attack had been made on Boulcott’s mill by the Mapries. He remembered that district also when roads were unformed into the town, and when the people who had made their home, in the wilderness had to convey their goods in drays to the water, and hump them on their backs into boats to go to Wellington. And be had never from that time lost sight of that district. (Cheers.) He had resided in Wellington, had lived there for some five or six years, and during that time had had ample opportunity of traversing it. He did not pretend to say that he had an extensive acquaintance in Wellington, hut he knew many individuals, and amongst them he had as warm and intimate friends as in any part of the colony. Of the latter class he might mention Mr. Fitzherbert, their Superintendent, and Mr. Ludlam, the gentleman on his right. He felt it really an unpleasant fact that he should he on the present occasion occupying a position totally in opposition to that of his friend, Mr. Fitzherbert., He had worked with him in the past, and he had also been opposed to him on certain matters, but this he could say with respect to that gentleman, that a more thoroughly earnest and unwavering ally, and a more formidable opponent, man never had. (Cheers.) He (Mr. Stafford) had responded to their call, as he had upon other occasions elsewhere, when he had been asked to express his views on questions of public moment. They had asked him to explain the provisions of the Abolition Bill—that was the term of the request they had made him, and he had responded, and would enlighten them to the best of his ability. He thought the Bill, having been in print now for some weeks past, would not require a great deal of explanation as to its general terms ; he would, however, give them an interpretation of it as to its effects. But before doing that he would take leave to explain their own position and that of all Hew Zealand settlers. Their position did not differ largely from that of any other district in Hew Zealand. The nature of their -industries and their pursuits might not be precisely .the same, but they had.two or three, leading subjects in common that affected the interests of themselves and their families. Those interests were these: They had, in the first place, a right to know that the results of their labor would be fairly protected; that they had means of bringing the produce of their labor to the market; that they had an absolute certainty. that no unfairness existed in the administration of the laws of the country as between man and, man, and as between class and class; that they had some knowledge that the taxes taken from them to be distributed towards the necessities of the State should he distributed as fairly as possible between man and man, and class and class. (Cheers.) He took it that these great political and public questions each affected every man in New Zealand, without consideration to the particular district that he might for the time being hail from. (Cheers.) How, he would ask whether any of them, at the numerous meetings connected with any election that had taken place either for the Provincial Council or the House of Representatives, had ever thought largely of these questions he had set before them—that they were questions to live or die for ? He would like to ask how many times they had questioned candidates soliciting their confidence as to how they were going to deal with the taxes or the courts of justice, which should be maintained for the protection of their liberties ? He had been elected at different times since the year 1855, before which time he occupied the position of Superintendent, and he had not once had a question put to him regarding these subjects, and yet they were of the most vital importance. Those were the subjects upon which their liberties depended, and they were subjects with which Provincial Councils could not deal Though Provincial Councils had done some good works regarding the opening up of the country and the passing of some laws of moment in respect of trespass and impounding Ordinances, with the sole exception of the education of the people, not a single one of the subjects dealt with by them in any way affected the liberties of the English-speaking race ; but by the existence of these Councils the people had been led away from a consideration of those matters in which consisted the preservation of true liberty. He said the General Assembly alone could preserve the liberties of the people, because to it alone was granted the power of dealing with the subjects to which he had referred—to determine the manner in which taxes should be levied, and how provided for, and to determine what should be the law for preserving themselves and their families from any injury which might be attempted in the name of the law. If they had all their attention concentrated on these questions, they would then begin to study the character of the taxes, whether they could not be improved ; and he thought improvement in this respect might be effected with advantage. They would then jealously watch their courts of justice and the manner of presiding over them. An Elector : And meddling with them. Mr. Stafford : Exactly meddling with them also. He was much obliged to his friend for that suggestion. It showed him that he was going with him at all events.— (Laughter and cheers.) He did not mean that the gentleman was going with him as to the direction of his feelings, because he did not know what the gentleman’s opinions were ; hut, in the remark he had made, he was following the thread of what he (Mr. Stafford) was endeavoring to impress upon them, namely, that they had got to concentrate their energies on the House of Representatives, and up to the present time they had neglected that institution. Private prejudice and neighborly feeling had had too much influence in the election of members to represent them in the Assembly. This, to a certain extent, must always happen, inasmuch as human nature was but human nature. But they should wake up, and consider the conduct of their public men regarding these

questions. The Abolition Bill had this merit —it would bring the people into closer communication with those whom they elected to consider these large questions. He did not care a button about the details of the Bill, and was equally careless about the nominated Superintendents, because he was of opinion they were not required—(cheers)—and should move in committee that the clause referring to them be struck out altogether. It was a sort of quasi insult to the people, and had the same effect .as a red rag upon a bull. (Laughter.) _ He would say, let that clause go, and so he rid of the question altogether. It would not be becoming in him in the presence of their Superintendent to say ought of what had been effected by Superintendents in tlie past, but he would ask them what could Superintendents do for them in the future ? They might affect the question of education, the rudimentary instruction of the young, which he admitted was of. vast moment; but nothing in the Constitution Act required that the matter should be dealt with by Provincial Councils. He believed it was a great mistake that a national system of education bad not Ion" a"0 been introduced by the General Government. (Cheers.) In that case, they would not have seen one district, overwhelming with funds, putting up schools for the instruction of the young, while another district was not in a position to pass a vote of a penny for such a purpose. He looked upon it as a great disgrace to the colony, while there were large public funds amounting to one million and a half, that there should be two-fifths of the country that did not get one penny of it to prevent the children from growing up like savages. But for this state of things he threw blame bn the provincial system. He recognised the primary importance of having the people instructed. He wished to see the young men grow up not to be ashamed to meet people from any part of the world. He wished to see them the masters of any people they should meet, and if not instructed they could not hope to he that. Education was a proper charge on the Consolidated Revenue of Hew Zealand. He was quite prepared to admit that some provinces had risen to the occasion, and had done a great deal in this direction, but that did not satisfy him, he wished to see the people all over Hew Zealand benefited. He would then proceed further with the principles of the Abolition Bill. Its main effects were these : The people would for the future concentrate their energies on selecting the best tried men to send to the House of Representatives, to determine what proportion of the people’s earnings should be paid to meet the necessities of the state. They would have to determine upon the fair distribution of the revenue, and to see, as his friend said, that nothing was done in the way of meddling with the procedure of the law. He maintained that the Abolition Bill tended towards that. It would leave a clear field and no favor to the best men and the intelligence of the people. The next question he would touch upon was one affecting the pocket. He had postponed it in favor of others, because they were the great charters of their liberties, because the great cry of the leader of the Opposition and his party was that the liberties of, the people were going to be taken away by the Abolition Bill. He (Mr. Stafford) was trying to show, not only that the Bill would have no such disastrous effect, but that, on the contrary, it would direct their attention to the preservation and guardianship of those liberties. But he would proceed to the pocket argument. An Elector ; We shall be able to understand that. Mr. Stafford was confident that they ununderstood a great deal more than that. But with regard to the pocket, they all knew that figures might be made to prove almost anything, and were often thrown about public meetings in any way. Therefore, in making the statement which was to follow, he asked them to believe that he was convinced of the truth of the figures. Though he was free to admit that he might have made errors in calculation, he had given them careful consideration. He had obtained them from the Colonial Treasurer, who had made slight allusions to them in his speech in the House. He had got in his pocket a statement in connection with the province of Wellington, but he had not confined himself to Wellington, he had gone over every one. ! He refused to he tied to any locality. He had always told his constituencies that he would do his best for New Zealand, and would not be bound down by any one particular district. He knew this had made him unpopular in several localities, because they had not looked upon him as sufficient of a party man for themselves but it they would not let him be free in his actions, they must get some one else to represent them. Before proceeding to the figures, he alluded to another great question, the third, namely, that there should be a fair expenditure for keeping up inter-communication between the settlements and shipping ports, of the colony, in order that the small and large settlers, settlers of all degrees in fact, might be benefited. He believed that the abolition of provinces would work a beneficial change in this respect —a change in the distribution of the funds of the colony. It would produce to all provinces some gain—some would benefit largely, and some slightly, but all would gain. He made out that the gain to Wellington of money available for roads, bridges, culverts, ■ and local public works generally would be between £24,000 and £25,000 a year. He was not taking exceptional expenditure, such as that of last year, which his friend, Mr. Bunny, had flashed in the face of _ a public meeting the other night, and which had been voted by the General Assembly—not by the Provincial Council —to cover a lot of arrears, and to replace savings bank funds—which had been appropriated by the Provincial Council for public works, surveys, &c. Even in the matter of Crown grants the people suffered at the hands of the provincial system. People had purchased the land in many out districts, but the Councils had neglected to survey them, and the Crown giants were not obtained. They did not feel it much in the Hutt because they got their Crown grants early. An Elector ; We havn’t got them yet. Mr. Stafford : What! Was this the provincial system —the charter of their liberties ? Absolutely four and thirty years had expired, and the people had not acquired titles to the property they were living on. He had some land at Rangitikei, and it was nine years before he got a lease, and he was then told he was lucky to have got it so soon, hut he had not expected to hear that the people of the Hutt had not got their grants yet. Well, last year, the year before, and, he believed, the year before that, the General Assembly had voted large sums to the Provincial Government of Wellington to enable it to do its duty—that was to perform those functions for which Provincial Governments were constituted, and which it, as well as other provinces, had not performed. He then proceeded to give the meeting a representation of the actual revenue which would accrue to Wellington under the present system and that under the proposed system of the General Government. Under the present system the Provincial Council (he quoted their own estimate) would have a total revenue of £230,000. He had his own views as to the correctness of the estimate, but assumed that it was correct. In addition to that the province was entitled to £2B 842 for capitation and allowances, which iade a total of £258,902. For departments there was £30,052 ; for municipalities, £7571 ; for road boards, £8362 ; for outlying districts, £SOOO ; making a total of £50,985. Expenditure—for departments, £33,592 ; education, £10,650 ; land surveys and reclamations, £95,981 ; interest on provincial loans, £17,769 ; interest on railways, £1702 ; making a total balance available for local public works of £99.208. Under the proposed system the total revenue as estimated was £22,400 , confiscated land, £IO,OOO ; for outlying districts, £50,985 ; total, £281,445. The expenditure may be set as follows : Provincial departments, £20,052 ; education, £10,650 ; land surveys and reclamation £95,391 ; interest on loans, £17,769 ; interest on railways, £1702. Tims, it would be seen, that the total expenditure was £157,564, against an expenditure estimated by the Provincial Council at £159,694, or a reduction of some £2OOO, which, although slight, was still a

reduction ; and it would also be seen that instead of having a balance of £99,208, there would bo a balance of £123,881, even after knocking off the £IO,OOO which, though calculated upon by the Provincial Government, the Colonial Treasurer did not believe would be realised, but if it was realised, would give an amount of £133,000 odd to be spent in public works. (Cheers.) So that, at any rate, under the proposed system, there was available for public a sum of at least £25,000, and perhaps £35,000, available for purely local public works. (Cheers.) He then proceeded to make remarks .regarding l settlers aud treated the meeting to some of his experiences in the work of settlement. As to what had fallen from Sir George Grey regarding the growth of people under the provincial form of government, he said that the growth of the people had not arisen from provincialism, the population would have increased just to as great an extent had provincialism not existed. The race of men which had grown up under provincialism would have been as determined, intelligent, and prosperous had provincialism not existed; in fact, in some cases, provincialism had been a bar to progress. He said the provincial party had opposed the construction of telegraphy, in consequence of which the introduction of the system had been delayed for some considerable time. Such action was either foresight or an error of judgment. If the former, he complimented the provinoialists upon it, for the day that telegraphy and railways were introduced was the day that it was first felt that the dirty, petty, local feelings engendered by provincialism ought to be done away with. Capital and labor were not confined to localities. Men followed railway contractors throughout the eolony, and capitalists looked in every province for investments. People in Canterbury were quite willing to inquire for Waikatoswamps. (A laugh.) Mr. Stafford then proceeded to refer at length to the anomaly of the state of the law in the colony, and to give an illustration of the inconvenience caused thereby he gave an amusing account of the maimer in which one of his sons had had to smuggle a dog from Nelson, through Marlborough aud Wellington, to Canterbury, in order to escape paying a license fee in each province. The laws were so made so differently, and local feeling became so strong, that the residents of one province looked upon those of another (vith much the same feeling as Frenchmen looked upon Englishmen, and regarded one another as natural enemies. In concluding his remarks the lion, gentleman expressed himself as very thankful to the meeting for the kind manner in which he had been received, and said he had never address ed a meeting with greater pleasure. Mr. Fitzherbert, on being called for, rose aud said there was one thing which he must admire in Mr. Stafford, that was when he had done the district the honor of coming to visit it Mr. Stafford : Pardon me ; the district has done me the honor of inviting me. (Cheers.) Mr. Fitzherbebt trusted his friend would pardon him, hut he (Mr. Fitzherbert) was now addressing the meeting. He was going to say that when his friend had done the insignificant valley of the Hutt the honor of consenting to attend, he had done quite right in making it one of the conditions that he should be accompanied by a number of his friends. (A laugh.) There was one thing he would at once admit —that no one could possibly take exception to what Mr. Stafford had said. Not only had he appreciated at its true merit the courteous letter of Sir George Grey asking a fair hearing, but. he (Mr. Fitzherbert), was hound to say that the whole tenor of the speech was such that any person who took objection to it must. be a very, difficult person to please. (Cheers.) But at the same time he did not think the question of abolition had been much dealt with, and certainly Mr. Stafford had not done much harm to the contention of his opponents. The hon. gentleman, with that courtesy which one usually extends to those he visits and with whom he has only the least acquaintance, had very properly abstained from finding fault with everything. He had really shown a great deal of good taste in that respect, and if in possession of any strong arguments, had certainly kept them back. What had he said after all ? First, that it was their duty to see that their representatives were sound upon the incidence of taxation, and not trouble any longer about the small things petty miserable Provincial Councils had anything to do with. As the hon. gentleman had spoken those words he (Mr. Fitzherbert) had listened with the greatest surprise, and had repeatedly asked himself could it be possible that the gentleman had used such words ? He had tried to think upon that hon. gentleman’s past career, aud lie could not recollect that in all his long career Mr. Stafford had ever endeavored to improve the incidence of taxation. (Cheers.) But after the excellent advice given to the meeting that night, it was to be hoped that when the day came the hon. gentleman would he prepared to go in with those who were ready to alter the incidence of taxation. When that day came he trusted all present would remember what took place at the Hutt meeting. (Cheers.) The next point was about a general law for education, and in regard to this subject he had blamed the provinces with respect to their having in some cases neglected to provide sufficient means for the primary education of the people. But the hon. gentleman did not tell the meeting that when lie was Prime Minister of the colony he brought in a measure that absolutely prevented the provinces from doing their duty in respect to this matter of education. He said also that some provinces attended to its education, but he did not tell the meeting that the provinces which had done their duty had been enabled to do so by the arrangements made by him while in office as Premier in 1856, hy which Otago and Canterbury had had the land fund placed at their disposal. It was because these provinces had had this land fund that they were so prosperous and wealthy, but surely those provinces which the General Government had impoverished should not be upbraided because they had been unable to provide for education in the same complete manner. If other provinces had had the same fund, they would have discharged their duties in the same manner. Mr. Stafford had spoken of a national policy, but in 1856 he (Mr. Fitzherbert) had propounded a national policy, while Mr. Stafford and his party had opposed it, and had taken a most narrow provincial view, for, Whereas Mr. Stafford had handed over all the waste lands to the provinces, he (Mr. Fitzherbert) had proposed to place 25 per cent, to the colonial revenue. He had ever held, and had put forth the doctrine, “The colony above all !” hut he did not recognise that in order to raise the colony it was necessary to destroy the provinces. (Cheers.) It was said the General Assembly had placed the provinces in funds, but, as a fact, the General Assembly had never given a penny except what they had taken full security for, and had, Jew-like, extorted the hardest terms. Then again, it had been said Crown grants had not been issued in Wellington, and that this fact was a proof that the Provincial Government was incompetent. How eagerly the hon. gentleman had snapped at this point, having so few points to make—but what was the fact ? Why Crown grants should all have been made long before the Provincial Government had had the land handed over to it. The province of Wellington had great reason to complain of the scant justice done it iu tills matter. Long before 1863, the year in which the lands wore taken over, a large quantity of the land had been sold, but the surveys and resqrveys had been so muddled that on the Provincial Government assuming control they had again to survey and give titles to land, the purchase money of which bad gone into the colonial chest, and from thence came not a penny as assistance to the province. The remarks of the lion, gentleman casting these difficulties into the teeth of the Provincial Government were unworthy of the occasion, for it was a most unfair charge to lay at the door of the Provincial Government. The hon. gentleman had been, very ready to drive the nail home, but the weakness must be pardoned. As he had said before, points were so few that anything was caught at ; but the people would notice this incident, and consider it when forming a judgment of the hon. gentleman’s speech. It was but a small matter to the

colony, but a great thing to the district ; but he warned them that all the great things to the district, though small to the General Government, would be treated in the same manner. If once their affairs got into the maelstroom of the General Assembly they would never be attended to, and the circumstances of this charge were most unfortunate, for he who came there as an apostle of abolition, for it showed how little was known about local affairs by those who aspired to manage everything. (Cheers.) Then Mr. Stafford had brought before them a most interesting array of figures, more interesting he had never listened to, and he trusted they would be printed, for really they had been so confusing, not only to the meeting, but to the hon gentleman himself, who had been quite clumsy in handling them, and had appeared to be quite careless about such trifles as £IO,OOO. He did hope they would be printed, for he wished to have a look at them. All he could catch was that £25,000 more was to be available for public works under the new system than under the old, but he had remarked that road boards, which now received £IO,OOO, were to receive £BOOO. That was one not very pleasing feature, and he would say he was afraid the Colonial Treasurer had hoaxed the hon. gentleman. He then proceeded to refer to the Ministry which had brought in the measure, and said had Mr. Stafford brought the measure forward there would have been no ground of complaint, but as it had been introduced by a Ministry who took office with a pledge to uphold provincial institutions, he had great ground of complaint. Mr. Stafford had always been an abolitionist, but the Ministry had always professed the opposite views. (The meeting here became rather uproarious.) The Chairman having restpred order, Mr. Eitzuekbebt proceeded to criticise the speech of Mr. Stafford, and said, supposing the speech to have been the most convincing one ever delivered by the most eloquent man who ever lived, and his friend would admit that was going far enough in his praise, he would ask what had been the effect of it ? What did he make speeches for ? _ (An Elector ; I never heard. Some little interruption was caused by this sally.) He was saying, what was the object people had in making speeches ? Was it not to seek to persuade those who were addressed ? Yet no one would pretend that such had been done. He would apply this test to it—would the lion, gentleman, and he could do it if he liked, allow the matter to be judged by the voice of the people at the ballot-box ? Had ho persuaded any one on the present occasion ? (No, no ; yes ; hisses ; and general confusion.) The Ciiaikman : Now you cannot decide it by shouting “yes” and “no.” I am in the chair, and must insist upon having older. If you will not listen, you must remember that before now silence has been restored by the noisy being turned out. , Mr. Eitzherbert contended that Mr. Stafford’s speech, as far, as convincing went, was a complete failure, and said it would not stand the test he had indicated. He trusted his friend would use his influence and endeavour to get for the people a fair hearing in this matter. Such a course as that proposed—a few members of the General Assembly forcing on the people a measure which they did not desire—had been previously'unknown in a British community. (Cheers.) Mr. Ludlam felt bound to say some few words. It seemed to him that though the question was one of the greatest importance to the colony, he would take the liberty of saying to Mr. Eitzherbert that it was not a new. question, for even in 1867 Mr. Eitzherbert supported such a measure, as that now introduced. Eor himself, he quite agreed with the principle of the Bill, which was to abolish the provinces and endow the outlying districts with funds. He had never been inconsistent, and though he had never been in favor of abolishing provinces before something better was brought forward, he was glad to hear Mr. Stafford say he would not support nominated Superintendents, for, with this exception, he should support the Bill, as he believed the road boards were of inestimable benefit. (Cheers,) What had the Provincial Councils done for road boards ? Why, they had actually starved them out. (Cheers.) He referred to the subsidies to bo granted to- the towns, and said it was not centralism to grant moderate suras in order to enable towns to maintain health, for the country districts were to get ‘ larger sums. (Where are they to get it from ?) That was a serious question, but if they could not get it from the General Assembly they could get it , from the Provincial Government. (Cheers.) It would be the people’s fault if they did not get their share, as the country districts had a largo majority in Parliament, and would force the Government to pay the money. He would favor abolition from another point of view. He did not believe they could have a good General Government while provincialism existed, for he had frequently seen questions of great public interest shelved because the provincial party were adverse to them. In dajs gone by, when it was a strange thing to see a gentleman arrive from Canterbury, Provincial Government had done well, but under the present circumstances it was out of place, and the sooner New Zealand became a colony instead of a number of pieces the better it would be. In regard to the cry for delay, he did not sympathise with it, for if the present Parliament, composed of men who had been in the House for years past, and had been in the habit of thinking about public affairs, could not deal with this subject, he was quite sure a now Parliament could not ; and besides, to show the hollowness of the cry, it would be remembered that they had not heard such a cry when the great public works policy, upon which the prosperity of New Zealand so much depended, had been proposed. That was carried by an expiring Parliament. There was no doubt some confusion would ensue, and that new machinery would not work smoothly at first ; but nothing new worked well at first. He believed that the proposal would be attended with benefit, and ought to be at once passed, for the delay was only demanded in the hope that, a chapter of accidents would turn up something good for the provincialists. (Cheers.) Mr. Mii.ne said that it seemed to him that the proposal of the Government was like the offering of a child physic. The physic might be nauseous, but the child was told to swallow it because of the spoonful of jam to come after. They had been shown the jam that evening, but he should like to know where the jam was to came from. (Cheers.) It was said the cities, towns, and road boards were to get the money, but where was it to come from ? (Cheers.) Mr. Curtis, Superintendent of Nelson, one of the most-clear-headed members of the House, had said General Government would cost more than provincialism ; then, whore was the money to come from ? (Cheers.) Ho then referred to the Ministry introducing the measure, and said they had gone into office with a pledge to uphold provincialism, and the proposal of abolition showed they had obtained office under a false pretence. (No ; yes.) He then referred to some of the nets of Mr. Stafford, and asserted that many of that gentleman’s alterations in the laws of the country had not always been productive of good. The Government ought to go to the country, for if the country was in favor of abolition they would have a majority, and if the people were averse to it, then the Bill ought not to be pushed. He moved—“ That the proposed change in the Constitution _ by the Bill abolishing provincial institutions ought not to be carried out until the inhabitants of the colony have had an opportunity of expressing an opinion at the general election.” Mr. Valentine seconded.

Mr. Ludlam proposed as an amendment, — “ That in the opinion of the electors of the Hutt, the present system of Provincial Government should bo abolished, and that Parliament during the present session should pass such measures as are necessary to establish local Government in the colony.” Mr. Bbetham seconded, and after referring to the bathos and fatherly advice—(a laugh)— to which the people of the Hutt had been treated last week, inquired whether the people of this colony wore like the Medes and Persians, or like the Chinese, that they should stand still and not improve matters for their children. Provincialism was on its last legs, and

although they might have sympathy with an institution which had done well, still there was a great deal of feeling that it should be done away with. There had been two new lights introduced into the Parliament during the present session, the one from Wanganui who had argued without a shadow of fallacy, and the other from Caversham, who, he was happy to say, had risen from the lowest rung of the ladder, but used fallacious arguments as opposed to Sir George Grey’s argument. Mi - . Stout had said the question of legality ought not to interfere with their action, while Sir George Grey had argued to the contrary. The former gentleman had also made remarks as to the merger of provincialism, not by extinction, but by growth. The fact was that the present proposal was a merger by growth, and not by extinction, as was evidenced by the retention of Superintendents. (Hisses.) He then went on to refer to the admission of Mr. Harrison that ho had been almost persuaded by Mr. Ormond, and hoped that those present would take the example and consider what had been told them that evening. (Here the interruptions became so great that the speaker could not proceed). Mr. Coulson thought it was great “cheek ” on the part of the General Assembly to attempt to mop up Provincial Councils. He would like to see greater power given to the Provincial Councils, and the General Government meet once in three years, having one or two Ministers, and doing away with Mr. Stafford, Mr. Eitzherbert, and others. (Cheers, laughter, and hisses.) He did not believe in kicking the ladder from under his feet, and that was the real gist of the proposition to do away with Provincial Councils. Under these institutions the country had prospered, then why do away with them ? It now being 10.25, Mr. Stamord intimated that he was quite prepared to answer question, but he wished to get back by the train. Mr. Codlson then proceeded to make some personal remarks respecting Mr. Stafford, telling him he had played the traitor with his party. (Hisses.) The Chairman appealed to the meeting os to whether it was satisfied with the manner in which Mr. Coulson was speaking—(loud cries of no, and hisses.) Mr. Coulson : There, you can speak for yourself. (Laughter.) Mr. Kush proceeded to make an amusing speech, saying that persons who had gained a property valued at £6OO would in thirty-four years have to pay the whole of the property over to the Provincial Government. In the name of God let them have General Government, for it could not be worse, and do away with Mr. Eitzherbert. He revered that gentleman because he was clever, at the same time ha was too clever. Some little difficulty ensued as to the mode in which the vote should be taken, but it was ultimately decided that those present not electors should be requested not to vote, and Messrs. Eitzherbert, Ludlam, and the chairman strongly impressed this upon the meeting. The vote was then taken when the amendment was carried by 47 to 36. The result was received with great applause. The meeting throughout was moderately quiet; but the chairman, Mr. McDowell, deserves a word of praise for the excellent manner in which he conducted the business. At the conclusion of the meeting, a procession was formed, and Mr. Stafford was conducted to the railway station in a grand torchlight procession.