PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4499, 21 August 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, August 20. The Council assembled at the usual hour. PRAYERS. The Hon. the Speaker having taken his seat, prayers were read.

MOTIONS.

The Hon. Mr. MENZIE ssaid he had no doubt that hon. members would be pleased to have an account of the efforts now being made with a view to the acclimatisation of the salmon and other fish in the colony, and he now asked leave to lay on the table certain papera relating to this subject. Leave granted as prayed. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved,—That the Ford and Others Pensions Bill be referred to a select committee, to consist of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, the Hon. Colonel Brett, the Hon. Wi Tako Ngatata, the Hon. Captain Baillie, the Hon. Mr. G. E. Johnson, and the mover, To report within a week.

The Council agreed to this course. The Hon. Major RICHMOND, C. 8., moved, —That the name of the Hon. Mr. Mantell be omitted from the committee on standing orders, and the name of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse be inserted in lieu thereof. The Council ordered as moved.

The Hon. Major RICHMOND, C. 8., moved, —That the name of the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse be added to the Library Committee. The motion was carried.

WELLINGTON CORPORATION OFFICES LOAN BILL.

The Hon. Capt. BAILLIE moved the second reading of this Bill, and said that in anticipation of any objections that might be raised against it, he would have no objection to its being referred to a select committee.

The Hon. Mr. HART would like to know in reference to this Bill to what extent the ratepayers had been informed as to this measure, and in the next place as to the degree of unanimity that prevailed in the City Council on the question of the Bill. As a ratepayer he could not help noticing that the Council appeared to be unable to keep the streets in decent repair, and while this was the case he thought the City Council might rest content with their present office accommodation. Were they possessed of ample funds of course the case would be different. But there was a graver matter in reference to this Bill, which was this, that the ratepayers were deprived of the protection afforded by the Municipal Corporations Act. The Council ought by law to have given notice to the ratepayers of their intention to introduce this BilL As the provisions of the Bill appeared to militate against some of the provisions of the Municipal Corporations act, he would move that the second reading of the Bill take place six months from date.

The Hon. Mr. BONAR. considered that the Bill directly contravened the provisions of the Municipal Corporations Act. He would not object however to the second reading if a select committee were appointed to make inquiries and report on the Bill. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN would vote for the second reading if referred to a select committee. ■

The Hon. Mr. STOKES as a ratepayer, and therefore in a measure personally concerned in the matter, considered it exceeding undesirable Jhat the Bill should pass in its present form. He considered that the present offices, though but joint tenancy, gave ample verge and room for the transaction of the business of the City Conncil. He was opposed to any scheme for erecting new offices at present, especially as it was likely that they would at no distant date be left in sole possession. He thought that this Council should ask the City Council to take the straightforward course provided by the Legislature for obtaining loans. The Hon. Mr. WATEKHOTTSE advised that the second reading of the Bill be postponed for twelve months. The Hon. Captain BArLLIE had undertaken to introduce the Bill, and had performed his pledge, but he thought that this thould not shut him out from the privilege of expressing his entire concurrence on the opinions on the Bill expressed by hon. members. The Council ordered the Bill to be read that day six months.

THE WELLINGTON MARKET BESEKYE SALE BILL.

The Hon. Captain BAILLIE, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that it sought power to dispose, either by lease or sale, of the land set apart as the Wellington market reserve, the money accruing to be devoted to other purposes. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOTTSE doubted the propriety of the measure. He considered the market reserves to be most important provisions for the future, and that they should be preserved in their integrity. If the city of Wellington were deprived of its site for a market, which if sold, would at present fetch but an inconsiderable sum, the necessity would arise for the site for a market in the future, when in all probability the municipality would find the price to be most burdensome. He considered the sale of the market reserve would be the destruction of all hope of having a market in Wellington, and he should therefore vote against the Bill. The Hon. Mr. BONAR concurred with the last speaker, and anticipated that if the site were parted with, when the necessity arose in the future for purchasing a site, it would only be obtained at a great expense. The Hon. Mr. WILLIAMSON thought that the city of Wellington have two markets to meet its requirements, instead of being deprived of the one site set apart for the purpose. The Council ordered that the Bill should not be read a second time. WELLINGTON HARBOR RESERVE SALE BILL. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE moved the second reading, and said that he did not expect that the Bill would receive much opposition on the part of the Council. He would not oppose his private reasons to the general opinion. The scheme of reclaiming the land had heen highly successful; but as the passing of the Bill in its present form would involve some overlapping of legislation, he would propose that after the Bill had been read a second time it should be referred to a select committee. The Bill was read a second time, and then referred to a select committee. IN COMMITTEE. The Council then went into committee on the Protection of Animals Act Amendment Bill. BILLS PASSED. The Council passed the New River Harbor Board Land Bill, and the Invercargill Gas Loan Act, 1874, Amendment Bill, and ordered them to be transmitted to the House of Representatives. The Council then adjourned until the usual hour on Tuesday next. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, August 20. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o'clock. private business. The report of the committee on the Kaitangata Railway and Coal Company Bill was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time. PAPERS. Sir DONALD McLEAN laid on the table correspondence regardingthe Tairna Goldfields and other matters. PETITIONS AND NOTICES. A number of notices of motion were made, and certain petitions were presented. QUESTIONS. In reply to Mr. Wales, The Hon. Major ATKINSON stated that the Government desired to conserve the educational reserves to provinces; and if the clause referring to them did not provide for it, the Government would be happy to accept any amendment by which it would be effected. COMMITTEE CLERKS AND GOVERNMENT PRINTING. Mr. REEVES drew attention to the inefficiency of the clerical power on private committees, and Mr. Wood complaiued with regard to the printing, that the Government printer could not overtake the work winch, had accumulated.]

A desultory discussion arose, in which •Messrs. Creighton, Buckland, O'Conob, and Lcckie took part, as to the advisability of importing compositors. The Hon. Major ATKINSON stated that in comparison with, other labor there had been very few of the printing trade sent out under the scheme of immigration, but if it were shown that there was a want in that direction and he could guarantee employment, he should be happy to forward instructions to the AgentGeneral. _._ _ T , T THE ABOLITION BILE. ADJOURNED DEBATE. Air MERVYN opened the debate, and commenced by referring to the arguments adduced by different lion, members as to why the provinces should be abolished, lhe subjecthad for the last twelve months engrossed the attention of the whole colony, and he should not take his constituents by surprise in voting for the measure, which he intended to do because the district had considered themselves neglected by the Provincial Government of Ota"o° It had been said that the measure invaded the people's rights ; but he would remind the House that it was only of a temporary character, and as acknowledged was susceptible of improvement. It was admitted by nearly every member who had spoken, and adopted by every public meeting that had been held, that a change was required, and therefore the only question was as to whether that change should be effected now and m the manner proposed by the Government. 1 ersonally he could speak, from the experience of his own district, of the utter inefficiency of the Provincial Government in providing tor communication with the outlying districts, or in dealing with the administration of the waste lands of the Crown. He believed from what he had heard that the same remarks were applicable to other provinces. Under these circumstances he could not see that there-was any good reason for delay, and he was therefore in favor of the speedy legalisation of the measures brought down by Government. He would for the reasons he had "iven vote for the Bill through all its stages. C Mr. O'CONOR considered it an honor to serve in a Provincial Government, but though paid for his services, declined to treat the question before the House in a mercenary manner. He had always been a pronounced advocate of abolition. He blamed the Central Legislature f°r much of the evil that had grown up with the growth of provincialism, for it was in the power of that Legislature to have kept provincial institutions to their proper functions when they would have multiplied into mere municipal governments. He would support the abolition measure. The country had a common interest, a common creditor, and should also have a common purse, and the Bill before them would enable this to be accomplished. It was iniquitous that one portion of the colony should be rolling m wealth, defraying provincial charges out of land funds, while other parts of the colony were in great need. "With regard to the Bill itself, whilst there were in it several clauses which would require amendment in committee, there was much for which the Government deserved thanks. Whilst he admired the liberal spirit with which the goldfields' revenue was treated, he would have preferred to have seen that revenue abolished altogether. As to the Bill itself, the proper way for the Opposition to treat it would be to exert themselves honorably by assisting in committee to put it into the best shape possible, and then there need be no delay in passing it. He had no fears of the result to the colony of immediate abolition. The state of too many portions of the colony required an immediate change, and that change should be made as quickly as possible. " Mr. BASSTIAN claimed the pardon of the House, never having made a speech, and all he desired to do was to give his reasons for supporting the measure. At his recent election he had only met with one opponent of abolition, Mr. Lumsden, a member of the Provincial Government of Otago. No argument that he had heard in the House had been against abolition, and all the objections to the present measure could be disposed of in committee. The House then adjourned until the evening sitting. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT expressed a sense of responsibility in rising to address the House on such an occasion, for he regarded the colony as in a condition serious and critical in the extreme, and utterances at the present juncture would not be mere words of form. When the resolutions passed last year by Mr. Vocel were proposed he had not had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon them, and having upon this occasion therefore to make up for lost time, the fact added to the embarrassment under which he labored. He then referred to the arduous task of speaking against a dead walk a term that would aptly describe speaking against a foregone conclusion, expressing a doubt whether Demosthenes, the orator of that now contemptible country Greece (a laugh)—who it was stated had been in the habit of declaiming at the sea beach with pebbles in his mouth, would not have found such a task a greater trial than the one he is said to have undertaken. He felt quite incompetent to perform that task, and the sight of so many opposing votes ri<*ht and left unnerved liim. After some further remarks, the main part of which were inaudible in the gallery, but in which the speaker was understood to express a wish to know where the House was (politically speaking), he then passed on to refer to the speech of the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, made in introducing the measure, and that of the hon. member for Timaru. The Colonial Treasurer had divided his speech into three parts, and the hon. member had divided his into four parts. He (Mr. Fitzherbert) did not intend to divide his remarks into any given number of parts, but should endeavor to follow the various speakers who had taken up leading positions in the debate. He proposed to offer criticism first upon the speech of the Treasurer, then should proceed to analyse the speech of the Minister of Justice ; next to make some remarks upon the speech of the hon. member for Timaru ; then to take a cursory view of the remarks made by other members of the House upon the subject; then to consider shortly what the Bill does, to state what had been his. aspirations and thoughts, and also speculate upon some of the effects which might be expected to fall upon the country if the Government persisted in carryin"- out this measure. Perhaps the House would excuse him if in following out this course he mio-ht occasionally turn backwards and forwards, and perhaps those hoD. members of whom'he intended to speak plainly would believe that that plain speaking would not arise from any unkind feelings towards them, but because he felt it bis duty to so speak of them. The first point raised by the Colonial Treasurer was the question of the legality. Mr. Fitzherbert referred to the attitude . assumed by the Colonial Treasurer, —that because the Government had power to abolish provinces singly, they also had the power to deal with theni collectively,—and said, with all due respect to the Colonial Treasurer, that he thought the hon. gentleman should have more carefully studied the matter before he assumed that position. He then quoted from a judgment iiven by the Lord Chancellor of England, in I ease Macbeth v. Ashley, where this very point had been raised, to show that magistrates actinc under an Act of Parliament, although empowered in their discretion to take certain districts under their jurisdiction separately and in detail, could not do so inglolio by one operation as such would be an invasion of the law. Comment was unnecessary. Proceeding in his criticism, he said the hon. members speech had reminded him of a parade officer calling the volunteer roll, rather than a statesman s explanation of the provisions of a Bill. He invited the attention of the House to the remarkable statement made by the Colonial Treasurer, that the Government did not wish to " meddle till they could amend." Yet immediately afterwards he made a confession of the absolute imperfection of the measure they were bringing forward, and had admitted that they had meddled and had not amended. Then, with respect to the Treasurer's doubt as to whether the Opposition would come to discuss the Government's financial proposals at ali that might bo. Certainly he did not intend that night to discuss the finances of the colony at large, but he did propose to draw the attention of the House to one

or two points in which the finances of the colony were involved in the Bill. Large appropriations were proposed out of the land fund revenue of the colony. A great deal had been said by hon. gentlemen, particularly on the Opposition side of the House, as to doubts whether those appropriations would not ultimately fall short of what was promised. He was not one of those members, and he would tell the House why. When a skilful fisherman threw out a sprat to catch a herring, lie did not appropriate the-sprat to himself, for if he did he would not catch any herring. And the sprat in this instance would be absorbed in the open maw of the provincial districts of the colony, while the General Government obtained the herring. But the House, he thought, had failed to appreciate all the consequences which must inevitably follow in the future from that tempting operation. At one coup the whole of the land revenue for all time would be reduced and become subject to all the appropriations of the House, and being so subject to these appropriations, it would fall, as a matter of course. Whatever might be the feelings of the gentlemen on the Treasury benches, still that land revenue would always be subject to the mutability of those provincial districts, and anv Ministry would be able to use it as they pleased. He would confess that were he on the Treasury benches at any future time he would do so, and the herring once having gone from the-provincial districts, they would never get it back again. The sprat would be paid, at any rate for a time. There was always a time when it was desirable to lay foundations and to let them settle. If during that critical period any disturbance should occur, the foundations might never settle, and the edifice never be reared. It followed, therefore, that any temptation held out not to disturb the foundation till securely laid, would be continued till the edifice was raised sufficiently high to render it impossible to pull it dou-n. This temptation would be continued till the result was fully known in the House to restrain the clamor of people interested in the provincial districts. It would be the simple duty of the Colonial Treasurer of the day to restrain it. If he were Colonial Treasurer he would do so, and would keep all hands off-the colonial revenue. Such a result was inevitable. No one knew the cox'rect state of the colonial finances, and to make good the state of the finances the Government did not dare to propose, for fear of losing their seats. The undertakings of the Government required larger sums to be raised, and how were they to be raised ? There would be no additional taxation raised, and the money-lender would be referred to the land revenue. The last four million loan was still on hand, not having been disposed among the investors of the country, yet the appraiser had already been in the country—he would not say the bailiff had taken a valuation— and the report had gone home to Great Britain ; and he would tell them further that if in the future they wanted additional millions, the country must be prepared with specific security for the lenders. The fact he particularly wished to unre upon the House was this, that it was not intended to destroy tiie land revenue, but simply to take it out of the hands of the provincial authorities, —land jobbers they were called, —not to hand it over to the road board and so forth, but for the true reason which he had endeavored to unmask. Having pointed out the difference existing between the land revenue of Victoria and the land revenue of New Zealand, and argued therefrom that thei a was no analogy between the endowments of the shires in that colony and the endowments proposed in this colony, and having asserted that the Colonial Treasurer was ignorant of the simplest principles of New Zealand finance, he went on to express an opinion that the scrambles which had been complained of would be increased by the rush for these subsidies. It would be within the recollection of people at all acquainted with the financial system of the colony, that for many years there had been what was known as provincial charges on the Estimates. Those charges had formed the subject of much discussion, and eventually had been declared to be vicious in principle, and had been swept away. Now, what the Bill was going to do was actually to bring back this system of provincial charges. (No.) They would create a good deal more scrambling, log-rolling, or whatever opprobious term they nr'ght choose to apply to it, by the reintroduction of this system of provincial charges than they were aware of. They would multiply by ten and twenty those interested in keeping up the scrambling system, and to restrain the rush.upon the public purse would be a more difficult task than ever it was before. There was another remarkable passage in the Colonial Treasurer's speech that making a charge against the Provincial Councils of having relegated their functions to other bodies. How could the hon. gentleman have come to make the admission he had ? It was urged as an objection against provincial institutions, that they centralised the money and the power ; yet one of the arguments brought forward by the hon. gentleman was that the provinces had commenced the work of decentralisation by entrusting powers to road boards and other local bodies. As to certain charges of inconsistency made against him, he quoted portions of a speech delivered by bim previously to show that such was not the case, and asked that the remainder of the speech should be taken as read and printed in Hansard. The next thing told them in the speech of the hon. gentleman was this (quoting from the report), that " we have already referred it to the electors, and they have decided." Words used on an occasion so important as the present were of no ordinary importance, and the hon. gentleman should therefore have been careful that his utterances were such as to be capable of bearing only the construction he intended they should bear. But he would give the House a sample of the hon. gentleman's idea of referring the matter to the people. At a public meeting shortly before the hon. gentleman went into office, he had pointed out "Why Otago and Canterbury should not be abolished," and had stated that "the public works scheme was meant to extinguish the provinces," the meeting passing three resolutions, the first of which was to the effect that the resolutions prepared by Mr. Vogel were wise and statesmanlike, and the third was that the meeting did not wish to see the land funds appropriated for works in the North Island, but that it should be retained by the districts within which it was raised, and concluding by passing a vote of confidence in the hon. gentleman. In view of this he was compelled to say that he felt ashamed when that hon. gentleman had ventured to make an assertion so discreditable to common sense. As to the remark that the public works scheme was meant ultimately to extinguish the provinces, he was totally at a loss to conceive how any one, being in the exalted position of that lion, gentleman, could have had the countenance to pass so everlasting an opprobrium upon his colleagues. He then referred to the two men (Messrs. Vogel and Fox) who were primarily responsible for the initiation of the public works policy, and quoted the expressed opinion of the latter, to the effect that it was the most heroic work that had ever been accomplished, and that the only thing wanted for its successful accomplishment was more complete control for the General Assembly. He now came to the last part of the hon. gentleman's speech, and a very memorable part, which was in effect that the great struggle between centralism and provincialism had engaged the attention of the country for a very long time, and that it had been brought to a head five years ago. That was the effect of the statement, if his memory served him, and he would trouble the House with a few notes which would enable them to ascertain how far that statement was correct. (The hon. gentleman here made some remarks, in parenthesis, in which he was understood to defend Sir George Grey against the attacks made upon him regarding the framing of the Constitution.) Mr. Sewell was elected to the Premiership of the colony in April, 1856, and had oxprcssed his desire to act in cordial co-operation with the Provincial Governments. Mr. Fox entered office afterwards for a short term, and during that period proposed that a fixed proportion of the land revenue of the colony should be made colonial revenue. Next came Stafford, who replaced Fox on the 3rd June, 1856, and carried the resolution for localising the land revenue, and in opposition to any portion of it

being treated as colonial revenue. This was the gentleman who now came forward as the Government champion, but who at that time had held these opinions, which could not be designated by any other term than that of the narrowest provincial spirit. Iu 1858, under peculiar circumstances, his hon. friend passed the New Provinces Act, which some of his friends contended was in the interests of the provinces. It could not certainly be taken as a measure for thedestruction of provinces, but rather for their multiplication. Fox replaced Stafford in 1861, and Fox during the whole of that time had been considered a strong proviucialist ; and he would ask, therefore, where had been the great struggle spoken of by his hon. friend the present Colonial Treasurer. That was the point he was driving at. Next came the Domett Ministry ; and in 1862 Mr. Fitz Gerald, a private member, introduced the Nominated Superintendents' Bill, which was discharged from the order paper. In 1864 Weld took office, and he (the speaker) was Colonial Treasurer under him. His was the self-reli-ance policy. In 1865, on the motion of Mr. Vogel that half the Stamp duties be taken for the provinces, the Weld Ministry went out, and Vogel succeeded. At the latter end of 1565 Stafford came into office, and the Local Government Bill and County of Westland Bill were introduced. In 1869 Fox again took office, on the ground that Stafford's party was too anti-provincial. In 1572 Stafford took office for a short time ; was succeeded by the Vogel Ministry ; and in 1574 the resolutions for the abolition of the provinces in the North Island were brought forward in that Assembly. Now, he would ask that House whether the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer had any grounds for making the statement he had ill the debate on the present question—that some decisive measure was required for the peace and good government of the country. He had been in some degree surprised at the speech of that hon. gentleman. At first, from its division into three heads, and from the somewhat parsonic tone of its delivery, he had thought they were going to be treated to a sermon, and he was looking out for the usual comforting passage at the end; but instead of the gentle and persuasive words that would have become a ghostly exponent of the Scriptures while enlightening a benighted flock, the hon. gentleman showed himself to be more of the soldier than the priest—(a laugh)—and came upon them with strong words of command, such as would be used in giving orders to an unruly company of volunteers. He now came to the speech of the Hon. the Minister for Justice. As to the opinions expressed by him (the speaker) that it was his duty (when Colonial Treasurer) to protect the colonial chest, he would reassert it, and a great trouble it had been to him, and it would be a greater trouble hereafter should the proposed change be effected. That hon. gentleman had contended that the fact of the Provincial Councils bringing pressure to bear on the Government was a reason for destroying them. The same reason would apply to any number of persons, who might come to that House with petitions that they should be destroyed also. Another statement worthy of remark in the speech of the hon. gentleman was this, that the measure was only of a temporary character. He would not have wondered had that Minister submitted a tentative measure—he thought it well and useful that the public mind should be brought up to carefully consider what they wanted— but he did ridicule and complain of a Minister admitting in one and the same breath that the measure was imperfect and temporary, and that The Hon. Mr. BuWEN here interrupted the speaker, and was understood in some way to contradict the substance of his last few remarks.

The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT : Such was the impression conveyed to him from a perusal of the report of that gentleman's speech in what was generally acknowledged to be a Government newspaper; but he was glad to see that the hon. member was troubled with remorse. When interrupted by the hon. gentleman he had been about to say that the hon. gentleman had described the measure as temporary and imperfect, and in the next breath had declared that the Government would insist on its being made law. (Opposition hear, hears.) Here was another remarkable admission—that if the Government only considered their own convenience they would be willing to go to the country, but were satisfied that no time was to be last. Just fancy that. There was a contradiction in every word. One Minister directly contradicted another. The Colonial Treasurer told them the whole country was with them ; his colleague said there was no time to be lost, because he was aware that by going to the country they would have no chance of carrying their measure. His hon. friend's motto was carpe diem —" Make hay "while the sun shines." He now came to what he might call a horse of a different color—to the hon. member for Timaru, who had spoken on that Bill; but it was necessary before referring to this subject that he should clear away some ground. In alluding to the speech of the hon. the Colonial Treasurer he had stated his opinion as to what was the motive which had induced the Government to xirge on this measure, it was the needs of the General Government to get at the land revenue of the colony, and what he (the speaker) complained of was their hypocrisy in pretending that it was the needs of the provinces they were consulting. As to the hon. member for Timaru, he was prepared to admit that had ho brought down a Bill there would have been nothing to complain of, that the country would have had nothing to reproach him with. He would now endeavor to ascertain where Mr. Stafford might be said to be, and what relation he held to the Government. Had that gentleman brought in the Bill from the Government benches he would not have held the unequivocal position he did hold. His position should have been in opposition to this Government, which was in reality a continuing one from that against which and the policy of which he had exclaimed so vehemently and emphatically in 1871 and 1872. But as Mr. Stafford supported the Government now, it would be well to know if he would support them in the method of raising the .€'1,000,000, and in the way of disposing of it. AVould he support the treatment of confiscated lands and the sale of waste lands, and the treatment of the Judges ? What reply would Mr. Stafford give to the question : " What means this dinning of sheep in my ears ?" Perhaps the theory to account for this was to be found in the fact that during the recess the Government feared to meet the House without losing their seats, and they appealed to Mr. Stafford and adroitly diplomatised, and availed themselves of his weak points, of his favorite hobby of centralism, on which he promised to ride in triumph, forgetful of the age and infirmities of his old spavined steed, so that at last that j which the Government with no decency or prospect of success could hope to do, they tried to do with his assistance, in fact, to win with him. As to what Mr. Stafford had said to justify the gradual lowering of the capitation grant, he would not dispute the figures, but the arrangement had been made as a reliable one, had afterwards been found to be unreliable, and therefore he (Mr. Fitzherbert) and those with him distrusted the reliability of the scheme for subsidising municipalities"and road boards proposed in the abolition measures. The strictures of Mr. Stafford on Sir Georgo Grey's remarks about Major Atkinson and Mr. Bowen were not justified by fact. The remarks of Sir George Grey were only such as had been repeated from one end of the land to the other. Mr. Stafford could not blame the Opposition for their alarm at his use of the word "revolution," which, in its ordinary meaning, was accepted as conveying the idea of a sudden change—a coup d'etat. Mr. Stafford in his reference to the United States and other countries had simply turned history up and down. He was surprised at Mr. Stafford's references to ancient Greece, and vindicated the policy, the statesmanship, generalship, and literature of those states, small in size but great in all great achievements. As for France, he quoted from De Tocqueville to prove the usefulness of provincial institutions; all the evils of Franco had resulted from ■ their destruction, which had rendered her a prey to clever adventurers.' Great men sprang from provincial systems ; luxury and its evils

attended centralism. Mr. Stafford had endeavored to take away from the effect of Mr. Gillies' opinion on the legality of abolition. That opinion had been given after clear and calm consideration, and not under any bias. Mr. Stafford had laid stress on the Provincial Council of Nelson refusing to refund him an unauthorised expenditure of £SO, whereas he should have admired that refusal. As an embarrassed British nobleman had attributed his difficulties to the first ss. he owed the pieman at Eton, so the future historian of New Zealand would attribute the great Constitutional change to the £SO which Mr. Stafford thought the province of Nelson owed him. Mr. Stafford had declared that in the succession of Mr. Ballance to Mr. Fox the mantle of Elijah had fallen upon Elisha. He was glad to hear it. Mr. Eox had commenced as a strong provincialist, and had ended as an ardent centralist. Mr. Ballauce had commenced as a centralist, he would therefore end as a provincialist. Eor the Bill itself (having disposed of the puerile and childish arguments of its supporters), he would not deal with that part of it proposing to give subsidies, as that had been already effectively disposed of. The Bill was a defective one, and proposed to remedy its defects by giving power to the Governor in Council to settle everything. In other words, it would relegate their governing power to the Ministry. It was the most anti-local goveruingßill thatcould beimagined; it would make all local necessities dependent on wirepulling in the House. He admitted the defects in the provincial system, he acknowledged the necessity of a change, but the question for consideration was, what kind of change ? Not such as that proposed by the Government. His idea of local government was to give the people their own revenues without interference, the privilege of electing their own chief Executive officers. Could not the House then join together for one brief year, abandon party division, and devote the energies of their best men to working out the good of the colony? If the House persisted in passing this measure without an appeal to the people, let them beware of a revolution. He asked them for very shame not to disregard the just and constitutional appeal to the people. Mr. BUCKLAND moved the adjournment of the debate, which was carried. The House then adjourned.