PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4496, 18 August 1875, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 17. The Council assembled at tlie usual hour. PRAYERS. The Hon. the Speaker having taken his seat, prayers were read. PAPERS. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN laid some papers on the table. alteration and rejection of bills. The Hon. Mr. HART said that he had been prompted to introduce the following motion by the aspersions which he knew to be frequently thrown upon the Council, when they, from a sense of duty, threw out Bills which had been sent up to them from the Lower House. As an instance, he would quote a passage from a speech delivered by a prominent statesman in the northern capital of the colony, to the effect- "that Bill after Bill was passed by the Lower House and thrown out by the Council," at the same time impugning the motives of the Council in so doing. It would be at once understood that such a statement would have great weight, when it was remembered that the speaker was a statesman possessing an Australian as well as a European reputation, and was addressed to an audience composed of influential and educated persons. He believed there was not a single fact which could sustain the inuendo contained in that statement. He would refer to a class 0 f Bills in the treatment of which the course *-% pursued by the Legislature might be open to misrepresentation. The Bills referred to were local or private Bills, but which, by the indulgence of Parliament, were considered as public Bills. These Bills were treated as public Bills to save the parties interested from incurring the heavy fees incident to private Bills. In these and similar cases he would suggest that the Council should insist on the production of evidence to show that such - Bills did not violate any public or private right, and he would advise the Council to laydown standing orders to set forth the prihcipies which should'guide the parties concerned in the passing of such Bills. The hon. gentleman quoted the Auckland Improvement Act as an instance in which Parliament had not ascertained whether there were sufficient funds to carry out the objects sought by the Bill, and instanced that as one out of many inquiries which might be instituted by the Council, and especially so as the Council had more leisure to examine Bills than the House of Representatives. He concluded by saying that a simple list of the Bills, with the particulars as set forth in the motion he would now place before the Council, would clear them from any aspersions of the character to which he had referred. The hon. gentleman then made the following motion :—That it be referred to a committee, consisting of five members of this Council, to prepare and report to this Council a list of the Bills which, having passed the House of Representatives, have been otherwise disposed of, or altered ia some material particular by the Legislative Council during the sessions of 1572, 1573, and 1574, and setting forth the mode of such dispostd, and nature of such alterations, respectively. The committee to consist of the Hon. Mr. G. K. Johnson, the Hon. Sir. Menzies, the Hon. Mr. Taylor, the Hon. Mr. Edwards, and the mover ; and to report within a month. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL said he quite agreed with all that the Hon. Mr. Hart had said, at the same time he thought it unadvisable for the Council to draw up such a list, as it would be like drawing out a list of the Council's good deeds. Under these circumstances, he would ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw his motion. The Hon. Mr. HART said as it appeared to be the wish of the Council, he would beg leave to withdraw his motion. The motion was withdrawn accordingly. INSPECTION OF MACHINERY ACT, 1574, AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in moving the second reading of this Bill said that hon. members would no doubt be glad to learn that the operation of the Act of 1871 had been found to be most beneficial. 300 establishments had been visited, and 515 boilers had been inspected. The Bill now before the Council contained alterations in details, which the experience gained had shown to be necessary. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said if he was not mistaken the Act was proclaimed in all the provinces except Hawke's Bay, and he could not see why this exception should be made. He was not aware that the people of Hawke's Bay were more careful than the people of the other provinces, or less liable to The Hon. Mr. JOHNSON said that the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse was under some misapprehension as to the operation of the Act. The Act was to be brought into operation in each province only on the application of the Superintendent of the province. He said it was not brought into operation in Nelson until lately, and that the amount of machinery in the Hawke's Bay province was but small.

The Hon. Mr. BONAR said it would be an improvement if the Act were made applicable to the whole of the colony. He would also suggest that the Chief Engineer be authorised to make inspection at any time, irrespective of local inspectors. He quite concurred with the rest of the Bill.

The Hon. Dr. POLLEN' said that the matter last referred to by the Hon. Mr. Bonar "would be at the discretion of the heads of the department. With respect to the omission of Hawke's Bay, it was presumed that the Government could not enforce the Act except on the requisition of the various Superintendents of provinces. The Bill was read the second time. SEW BIYEB HABBOB BOARD LAND BILL. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that the object of the Bill was to make an endowment of 700 acre 3 of land situated along the shores of the, estuary of the New River, as it was anticipated that the land would become of great value. The New Biver Harbor was found to be a great convenience for shipping, and he thought it advisable that a harbor trust should be formed to keep the river free from obstructions. The Hon. -Dr. POLLEN said he was not aware of any provision for making such an endowment nnder the clauses of the Waste Lands Act, and thought that there was no reason why the grant should not be made. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said that the Hon. the Premier had stated that there waa no reason why this endowment should not be made. He would like to know his reasons why the endowment should be made, and if the endowment were made, he considered that the corporation endowed should not have the power to dispose of the land. He would not oppose the Bill, however, if referred to a select "committee. The Hon. Air. MENZIES said the Board had not the power which the hon. member opposite appeared to think was vested in it. The land was simply vested in the Board on trust. If there were a power to sell, it would be given in such a way that the proceeds would be devoted to the object of the trust, which he considered rather an advantage than otherwise. The Bill was read a second time. SOUTHLAND WASTE LANDS BILL. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that the Southland Wa3te Lands Act had been found to be defective in many respects. Some of the clauses of the Otago Act had been incorporated in this Bill, conferring all the powers sought by the Bill, and which would relieve the administration of the waste land in Southland from the embarrasments unde.which it labored under the old Act. The Bill was read a second time. IN COMMITTEE. The Council then went into committee on the Inspection of Machinery Act, 1874, Amendment Bill, and the New River Harbor Board Lands Bill. ADJOURNMENT. On the motion of Dr. Pollen, the Council adjourned to the usual hour on Wednesday this day.)

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 17. The House resumed at the usual hour yesterday. THE MEMBER FOR WALLACE. Mr. Basstian, elected member for the district of Wallace, was sworn in. . PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Dunedin Waterworks Extension Bill was introduced, and referred to the Committee of Selection. PETITIONS. Mr. W. KELLY presented a petition for an additional member for the Poverty Bay district, and Mr. O'NEILL presented a petition from persons representing the people of Coromande], praying to be allowed one member to represent that district. A number of other petitions were also presented, and formally received. NOTICES OF MOTION. Sir DONALD Mc'LEAN gave notice that he would move for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the circumstances connected with the sale of a block of land m the Waikato district to Mr. Thomas Russell. Sir GEORGE GREY gave notice of his intention to move that a building for the accommodation and safe keeping of the valuable library of the General Assembly be erected. Other notices of motion were given. ! ■'. PAPERS. A number of papers, some of them relating to native land purchases, were laid upon the table by Government. QUESTION OF ORDER. The SPEAKER wished to take the opinion of the House upon altering the records of proceedings. The Clerk, as the Abolition Bill involved appropriation, had entered it as considered in committee of the whole House, whereas it had not been considered in committee of the whole, but by the House. He explained that it was necessary that any Bill involving appropriation should be considered in committee of the whole House before reaching its final stage ; but, acting on the precedent of the British House of Commons, there was no reason why it should not pass its second reading before being considered by such committee. Sir GEORGE GREY asked whether the course adopted by the Clerk was not the one which ought to have been followed by the House, namely, to go into a committee of the whole House before proceeding to the second reading; and whether everything done since the introduction of the Bill was of no effect, and would require to be commenced de novo ?' The SPEAKER said the proceedings taken so far were perfectly correct. Some discussion ensued.

The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD supported the Speaker's view of the case, and quoted a case which had occurred in the Imperial Parliament in 1872, regarding a railway question. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT said the deliberations of the Hou3e on the abolition question had been hastened on, owing to this wrong course having been pursued. Mr. O'RORKE quoted 355 of the old standing orders, which stated that the House might not proceed on any petition, motion, or Bill for the appropriation of money but in a committee of the whole House.

Mr. READER WOOD contended that the Bill should have been considered in committee before the second reading was proceeded with. Sir GEORGE GREY said it was a fact that the Colonial Treasurer and the Government supporters had carefully avoided touching on the financial part of the Bill, by a clear explanation of which the country would have been enabled to comprehend the measure. He said his supporters had made it their business to inquire into the nature of those Bills, and the impression left upon their minds was that the promoters of the Bill had no knowledge of their own financial proposition. He asked, in justice to the country, that such a measure should be allowed go through the proper stages. The Hon. Major ATKINSON remarked that when a point of order was raised the Speaker's ruling was abided by, or it was competent for any hon. gentleman holding a contrary opinion to put a motion to the House. He then proceeded to remark upon the inconvenient practice of delaying business, which he believed was the aim of Opposition members at present. As to the financial point of the Abolition Bill, he should have more to say in due course, and then they would see who it was that really understood the financial position of the country and the proposals of the Government. After some further remarks from Mr. Reii>, the Speaker, and Messrs. Bcnnv, Luckie, and Wood,

The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD addressed the House to show that there was no statutory law obliging the House to obey strictly and in all circumstances the rules of procedure laid down. The Hon. Mr. FITZHERBERT said he recollected readiiig of a similar motion to the present having been made in the Parliament of New South Wales with regard to the Stamp Act, and having far as the third reading, the whole of the proceedings were rendered null and void because the House had not gone into committee of the whole House to consider the Bill, a 3 was the usual custom.

The SPEAKER was-about to put the question, when Mr. Bunny wished to hear the definite opinion of the Speaker, were they or were they not subject to the standing order ? This query prolonged the discussion, in which Messrs. Montgomery, Macandrew, and Reeves took part. Mr. SHEEHAN moved that the Speaker's decision be considered to-morrow, and the debate on the question be postponed till then. Sir GEORGE GREY said before the question was put he should like to make one appeal to the gentlemen sitting on the Ministerial benches. He affirmed that a most important principle was involved in this question, and he believed if the Government had instructed the people on the subject of their financial proposals as strongly as public opinion was running against them, that that public opinion would run still stronger against them. He (Sir George Grey) was a young member in that House. Had he known what was the proper course to pursue, he would at once haveobjectedtoproceedingonacoursewhichhad led them thus far up to the present; and he contended that his ignorance ought not to have been used against him in an important matterof that kind. It seemed to him that there was no hope for them while such a system was pursued. Only last Friday he had had a motion before the House himself, being simply a question of lawful proceeding, and he was perfectly certain that no member in that House could_ conscientiously say that he believed the Government had acted lawfully or constitutionally in the matter. Yet, immediately a party cry was raised the whole question of right was forgotten. It was the same on the present occasion. There were certain rules laid down for their guidance, which the Government themselves had practised for six years. ("No" from the Government benches.) He said yes. It had been shown that no proceedings similar to the present had taken place previously in that Assembly, and in a neighboring colony the Government, having suddenly discovered an error such as that made in proceeding with the present Bill, had taken the part of rectitude and right; but this Government, having discovered their error, were determined not to take the part of rectitude. Every step taken in reference to the measure had been unusual. It was, in the first place, quite unnecessary to mould the two Bills into one, and a wrong step to make the Queen's representative put his name to a measure of the land, while concealing from him the opinion of the Attorney-General, which stated that there was a doubt as to the power of the General Assembly to abolish the provinces, and advised them to refer the matter to the Crown Solicitor. They had deceived him (the Queen's representative); they had deceived their Sovereign and the Parliament. (Momentary confusion.) By moulding these Bills into "one, they had shut out from their legitimate action the other branch of the Legislature, and then took steps to override the standing orders. He contended that they were not acting fairly and justly by their fellow-colonists, whom they were about to deprive of their, representative governments, and place in its stead nominated

Superintendents and officers, and make one Government, which was to be composed of civil service officers, and of whom they (the Government) were the slaves. If such was the case, why, let them proceed on their course; but if not, why did they not let the Speaker sit there as a judge? Why notdet the two parties come as suppliants before him, giving each their reasons when they should have had time to mature them, and let him pronounce his decision upon them ? Why had a majority such as now occupied the Government benches pressed through a measure which they had induced his Excellency the Governor to pledge his word they (the Assembly) would only be invited to consider? Every step they had taken was irritating to the people, unjust to the House, and unfair to the Opposition. They (the Opposition) wished to obtain for the people such a Constitution as would last for years, and they were quite prepared to co-operate with the Government in preparing such a measure. All they asked for was to be provided with information. What they asked for, moreover, was for the advantage of the Governor himself, as well as for them. Why should he hesitate to win all hearts by telling them to determine their own future ? Why should he—urged on by unworthy advice —impose upon a people that which they neither understood nor appreciated ? He knew that a majority could trample on the rights of a minority, but he implored them not to do so, Let them empower the Speaker to weigh their arguments, and let them have an intelligent decision by which all would be bound. He asked nothing unreasonable. He appealed to those who supported the Ministry the other night—he believed wrongfully —to consider that it was expedient for the House to recognise the claims of justice, and asked them to help the Speaker in the discharge of his difficult duties, in order that his ruling might come of mature consideration.

The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said the Government had taken care that the measure was brought forward in a perfectly constitutional manner. The technical questions raised had been decided by the Speaker, whose ruling was to the effect that the Government had acted constitutionally. If they were to adjourn the debate on every doubt raised by members of the Opposition, they would never get to the end of the question. They would never arrive at a critical consideration of the great subject now before the Assembly while the hon. member for Auckland City West considered that bare assertion was proof and that vituperation was argument. While such was the case, they would never arrive at a fair discussion of the principles of the Bill. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD explained that the ruling of the Speaker was in perfect accord with the practice of the British House of Commons. The question as to whether the consideration of the Speaker's decision should be considered to-morrow, was then put, and negatived. APPROACH TO MILTON RAILWAY STATION. In reply to Mr. Murray, The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON said the arrangement made was to the effect that the Corporation of Milton should make the approach to the Milton railway-station. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS. Mr. BALLANCE asked the Minister of Justice whether it was the intention of_ the Government to introduce during next session a Bill to consolidate the various Acts relating to municipal Corporations ? The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said the Government would have pleasure in making inquiry, with a view to effect the object sought. MANAWATU RAILWAY. Mr. BALLANCE asked the Minister for Public Works what is the cause of delay in calling for tenders for the Morton section of the Wanganui-Manawatu railway ? The Hon. Mr. RICHARDSON did not ■consider that there had been any delay, and the hon. gentleman should also bear in mind that the Government's first duty was to ascertain that they had funds sufficient to justify them in proceeding with the work. QUESTION POSTPONED. A question by Mr. Stewart, as to the class of bridge proposed to be constructed over the Maerewhenua River, was postponed, as certain information upon which' the answer of the Government would depend had not arrived. THE ABOLITION BILL. ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. ROLLESTON opposed the Bill because it was a measure the country did not require. He appealed to the results of provincial government to show that the proposed change was not needed. The public works and social and educational institutions of the colony had arrived at a state of perfection which demonstrated that the administration of local self-government in the past had been most successful, and that there was no necessity for the extreme measures which were now before the House. It might be said that the people were dissatisfied under the present state of things. That was true ; but abolition as proposed would not create satisfaction. Change undoubtedly was necessary, bvit it was not the change proposed. He had much regretted to see the narrow shape the discussion had assumed, for it was not proper that mistakes in the past should be referred to, when mistakes had been made by the General Government as well as by the Provincial Government. It was not right that the administration of one province, if bad, should be used as an argument against the whole system. If mistakes had been made, let steps be taken to rectify those mistakes, so that good government might be obtained. Neither should the question be dealt with merely from a monetary point of view. It was not merely a question as to how the land fund should be divided, but it was this : whether the people should be called upon to part with rights which they had enjoyed for a long series of years, without a prospect of their position being benefited by such a change. It was said it was sought to give national life ; but nothing would give national life more completely than the maintenance of provincialism, for the very struggle which existed between the Provincial and General Governments, like the struggle between the Federal States and General Government of America, created a national life and vigor. This he would admit, that it was not possible for things to remain as they were. There must be a change. He was satisfied that there must be a change in the Constitution of the country—but not a change in the Constitution Act—because such had been rendered absolutely necessary from the fact that the General Government had not hitherto worked out its functions. The liabilities of the colony were becoming enormous, and the Customs' revenue was not sufficient to meet the engagements that were crowding upon it, although a contribution of between £2O and £3O a year was taken from the family of every working man—(no, no ; hear, hear) —by means of Customs duties. It was this increasing taxation and increasing liabilities that had led to the promotion of this measure, and it would have been well if the Government, when they brought in the Bill, had admitted this fact and said exactly what they meant. It would have been much better had the Government brought down a measure simplifiying provincial institutions, giving them increased power, the General Government merely exercising a general supeiintendence. That would have been a statesmanlike course. He did not think any change in the Constitution of the country necessary, and was sure the people would not give up their privilege of electing their officers without a struggle. Although the provincial system had overgrown itself, and there was a too largo and expensive system of government, that would, if a proper scheme had been brought down, have in time remedied itself; although he was convinced there must be a change, to avoid difficulties which unless met would put the country in a worse position than it had ever occupied before. But to what were these difficulties traceable ? The action, or rather inaction, of the General Government, which had entirely neglected the finances. Under the circumstances—the bad management of the General Government—it was not a cause of wonder that the provinces had run riot, and resented anything like interference by the General Government. The present position of affairs was solely attributable to the fact that the Government had not done its duty in many directions, including finance, surveys, land grants,

gaols, and other matters. He . did not approve of the Bill, because it would not satisfy the people. Last session it was thought the Government would bring down some statesmanlike measure, and not a Bill which, while taking away positive. advantages, would replace them by at most possible benefits ; 'and that better relations would be instituted between the provinces and the upper branch of the Legislature. He maintained that there should be representation in the Upper House. He also believed that the social institutions of the colony should be a primary charge upon the Customs revenue, and also that there should be a reduction in the amount of Customs duties levied, so as to make the cost of the necessaries of life cheaper to those with whom it was not so easy to obtain the articles of food in general consumption. He would like to see taxation raised in a different manner than at present ; and it was clear to his mind that in another session such a fiscal change must ensue, and that a property and income tax would naturally follow. The land fund should not be called upon to contribute to revenue. The real theory of the laud fund, whether regarded in the light of the compact of 1856, or any other way, was that the money taken from the land should be spent on the land itself, and any Bill of this kind brought down must be drawn with reference to the compact of ISSO. The Bill, if passed, would merely plunge the country into chaos, and would send it in search of a Constitution. It cast off every anchor of the present Constitution, and the people did not know where to go for another ; and the disturbance in the colony would culminate in the separation of the two island. (Cheers and laughter.) Having accused the Government of incompetency and asserted that they were under the guidance and control of the hon. member for Timaru, he proceeded to say that the Bill would be most unfair in its operation, because it would place large sums at the disposal of some districts, whilst others would be entirely neglected, and the price of laud throughout the colony reduced. The Government might pass the measure by the bribes it held out, but it could not long fulfil the promises it had made. The country was opposed to the measure, and if it did pass the Assembly, he hoped the other branch of the Legislature would, as on a previous occasion, be faithful to its trust by refusing to bo a party to the passage of the Bill.

The Hon. Mr. BOWEN said the hon. member who had just sat down admitted there was nothing new in the proposal to change the Constitution, but went on to say ho wished the Government, in bringing down the BiJl, had stated that it was brought down because of financial difficulties. He wished the hon. member to know that if that had been the truth, the Government would with pleasure have said so ; but as it fortunately was not so, they had not stated such to be the case. E oi'tunately, there were at present no financial difficulties to trouble the country, although from time to time there had been financial difficulties owing to the system of government which had been adopted in New Zealand. There had not yet been a Colonial Treasurer on the Government benches who had not protested from time to time against the difficulty experienced in protecting the Government chest from the organised raid made upon it by the provinces. Ten years ago the hon. member for the Hutt was Colonial Treasurer, and he had found it necessary to charge £125,000 to loan account, having had to provide that sum for the requirements of the provinces, and that was at a time when loans were not raised for reproductive works, but to meet the real necessities of the country ; and two years subsequently the same gentlemen had to provide another £183,000 in order to make their overdrafts disappear, to use his own words. Mr. Hall, another Colonial Treasurer, had to make the same complaint, and said it was utterly impossible to guard the chest against such an organised banditti, who year after year demanded "your money or your life." Every Colonial Treasurer had made the same complaint, and it was no wonder that the late Colonial Treasurer, having to contend with the same pressure which had been brought to bear upon his predecessors, had decided to get rid of those institutions which if not swept away would launch the country into financial disaster. The fact was, it was admitted on all hands that there must be a change in the institutions of the colony, which it would also be admitted had assumed a shape it was never intended they should take, when the Constitution was first promulgated. No doubt the Constitution when first gained was thought highly of, because it was felt that one step had been gained after a long and severe struggle, but even the hon. gentleman opposite, one of the most active defenders of constitutional rights in New Zealand, must admit that though at one time suited to the requirements of the country, the Constitution was not now applicable to the requirements of the country. One gentleman (Mr. Godloy), who had taken a most active part in advocating the possession of the Constitution, had said the Constitution was but temporary. The Constitution, though eagerly sought for, had been fully criticised at the time, and Mr. Godley had expressed an opinion which the lapse of time had remarkably verified. (The hon. member read an extract from a work by Mr. Godley.) One of the principal objections,was that, they were taking away the rights of the people and interfering with the liberty of the subject—a complaint which came principally from Superintendents. It was these heads cried out that the people must be represented ; but it was a remarkable thing that, Coesarism had ever turned its back on the representatives of the people. Wearers of the Imperial purple had always demanded liberties in the name of the people, and thus themselves had seized the liberties of the people ; but it would be a bad day for the people of New Zealand wero they granted liberties for the use of Caesars. They had seen already the Provincial Council, who professed to be a representatives of the people, pass a resolution on one day, but rescind it two or three days after at the bidding of the Superintendent, and they had heard of a Provincial Treasurer telling the Provincial Council that anything which did not meet with the approval of the Superintendent should be rescinded. Could that bo called representative, government '! They had been asked to stop in their work until legal opinion could be obtained from Home, because doubt was imported into the question as to whether they had the legal power, but it was strange that they had never had produced the opinion of that constitutional authority who said they were acting illegally. He hoped that tho opinion would be produced, bocause it might be shown that an opinion from higher authorities, yet to be obtained, mi|jsit confirm those given by the law officers of But oven supposing there 1 was a slight doubt as to tho meaning of that Act, which was said to have been passed after midnight, >that was no reason why the Government should not proceed. If what they were about' to do was for tho good of the country, ■ the Bill might be sent Home if consent were refused here, and he was Bure her Majesty would not be advised to veto that Act. They had gone altogether beyond Provincial Government, and required to be united by a law which would cause the colony to be easily governed .by ono Government and one Parliament. It was more easy now to govern New Zealand with one Government, than in the time of our grandfathers for one Government to govorn England. It wa3 physically easier to do so; and there could be no reason why this colony should be governed in a manner exceptional to that prevailing in any othor part of her Majesty's dominions. He could not understand how gentlemen could come to the conclusion that a provincial form of government should be retained in New Zealand if not necessary in any other colony or country in the world. They had come to the time when there mUBt be a change, though it was not a necessary presumption that this change was a reproach upon those who had been the administrators of the system which had hitherto existed; but even supposing the provinces had been successfully administered, that was no reason that they must therefore exist for ever. If that were fair reasoning, in the same manner then, seeing that during the existence of the Heptarchy some of tho noblest qualities of the English race were brought out, the Heptarchy should also remain for ever. We have now come to a period when by xea-

son of public works and immigration, carried on during the last five years, we have advanced almost a generation in the progress of the nation, and political machinery suited to our advanced social condition is needed. Last year this necessity became recognised, and resolutions were passed instructing the Government to prepare measures for the abolition of the provinces in the Northern Island ; but since that time the cry. came from one end of New Zealand to the other, that Southern as well as Northern must be abolished. It came first from the North and' then from the South. (No, no.) He appealed to the official heads of provinces in the South to bear him out in his statement. It came from the Superintendent of Otago, who said "All or none ;" and it came from the Superintendent of Canterbury who also said " All or none." Therefore there was no alternative for the Government but to bring in a measure for abolishing all. But even if this cry had not come, abolition of the whole must have been decided upon, because, when they looked into the matter it appeared neither just nor fair, in a financial or administrative point of view, to make any difference ' between one or the other. Accordingly they had brought down a message, which was of a temporary character and would answer for the time being, giving further time to prepare another Constitution. Objection had been taken to the term "provincial districts," but it had been necessary to use that term for two reasons : first, there was a mass of legislation which had grown up in the different provinces, which extended no further than the boundaries of those provinces, and it would have been impossible for them to meddle with those laws during the present session, and to prevent confusion they had decided to leave the districts as at present constituted, so as to render the laws valid. Another matter was land revenue complications, with which, to prevent injustice, they had not meddled. The next point was one which, he might say, had been very much misrepresented, namely, that having reference to delegating the power to Superintendents. The Government did not wish to take this responsibility on themselves, but felt it necessary that they should have the power of retaining in office those at present in charge of the principal departments of Provincial Governments. Just as a man taking over a new business required the assistance of those who had been employed in the establishment previously. With reference to the assertion that the Government could not carry out their promises to country districts, he said the Government would be able to do all they had promised. The road boards need not be jealous of the municipalities, because in addition to the amount guaranteed, the country districts would also have a fair share of the expenditure on public works. Goldfields revenue was given solely to the goldfields because it was thought right that the revenue derived from the goldfields should be used in giving facilities for miners' work. With reference to the allusion which had been made to the fact that the

capitation allowance had been reduced, lie said it was well to remember that at the same time a large number of charges had been taken over from the Provincial to the General Government. He was glad that the hon. member for Akaroa had corrected the hon. member for Pamell in his assertion that the district of Waimato was poor, and had shown that the district had a balance in the bank. That district was an instance in favor of the Government. It was a.part of the Timaru and Gladstone ward, where the country system had first been brought into operation. Respecting the provision for the issue of debentures to assist districts at times when revenues were short, he defended the system, saying it was not intended to add to the debt, but mei-ely to equalise the revenue, the deficiency of one year being made up by the overplus of another year. This, he took it, would be much better than allowing a district to starve one year, while it had a plethora another year. He then proceeded to speak in glowing terms of the advantages which must arise from abolition, for though all administration would be local, yet every thing would be done on a fixed system; surveys, gaols, education, and police would be administered on a general system, and none could dei;ythat that would not be • better than piecemeal administrations, owing to . which children of one district were educated, while those of another district for want of funds were neglected, and criminals instead of being brought to justice were merely hunted from one province to another. It had been said the Government ought to go to the country—and he thought if the Government had merely consulted their own feelings they would have gone to the country—but they felt they had a duty to perform; they believed the change to be absolutely necessary, for if the country had to experience more scrambling, it would involve utter ruin. Therefore, they had not shirked their responsibility, and would stake their positions on the Bill. They were satisfied there was no time to be lost, and they trusted the Parliament would settle the matter at once. The Parliament had now a good opportunity to distinguish itself. Its predecessor had made itself famous by inaugurating the public works policy, and if the present Parliament did its duty by deciding on abolition, it would earn the gratitude of generations to come ; but if it failed to perform its duty, it would return to obscurity in the garb of ignominy. (Loud cheering.) Mr. MURRAY thought that the object of the Government was to prepare a crude and undigested measure, and then take the opinion of the country on it by means of the telegraph. Instead of doing this, they should lTave prepared the Bill six months ago, circulated it amongst members, and then let them take the opinions of their constituencies upon it. The only effect of the Stafford party had been to destroy the Constitution, and he thought that in times gone by Mr. Stafford had shown manifest incapacity in meeting the necessities of the country. Mr. BALLANCE said ho had to solicit the indulgence of the Houso while he made a few observations on the question before it. He had listened with some interest to the address of the hon. member for Bruce. He then proceeded to criticise tho address of that gentleman. When he sketched out what he (the speaker) considered to be a new Constitution, the hon. member at once proclaimed himself an abolitionist. If it wero true that the Provincial Government of Otago hadonlysoo,ooo acres left to dispose of, it did not that prove that the colonising functions of that Government were coming rapidly to an end. Ho could easily understand why Mr. Stafford and the. Government agreed, they recognised the fact that agreement on certain great and fundamental principles should produce a cbsicord which was not to be destroyed by mere personal differences. He had listened carefully to Sir George Grey, with the consciousness that the speech of that gentleman might induce him (Mr. Ballance) to change his views. But ho had found no cause whatever to do this. He would ask Sir George Grey, as the framer of provincial institutions, what use did those institutions subserve. (Mr. Ballance quoted Hallam and Creasy, to show the evils attendant upon the existence of provincial institutions.) Provincial institutions had not within them that vital principle of liberty which would be gained by their abolition. He had seen the statistics quoted by Mr. Bunny in the Wairarapa. He would not say those statistics were disingemious, but he would point out that Mr. Bunny had not allowed for the tolls collected in that district, and absolutely counted as assistance from the Provincial Government the grants to road boards made by the House of Representatives. He would vote for the abolition measures, which would create a united colony. Mr. REID moved the adjournment of the debate. This was opposed by the Government, and a division was taken, which showed —Ayes, 21 ; noes, 30. The debate was therefore resumed by Mr. GIBBS, who expressed his full confidence in tho power of the House to deal with the abolition question. The fruit of provincialism had passed maturity, was rotting, and the sooner it was done away with the better it would be for the colony. Sir GEORGE GREY moved the adjournment of the House.

Mr. KELLY opposed adjournment, expressing his opinion that the House should sit until three o'clock.

After discussion, Sir George Gkey withdrew his motion, and Mr. Eeid moved the adjournment of the debate, which was carried on the voices.

Sir DONALD McLEAN moved that the debate be resumed at half-past two this day. This was opposed by Mr. O'Roeke, who Maintained that a day's notice of such an intention should have been given. On this alengthy discussion ensued, until a further motion for adjournment was put, which resulted in a division :-_Ayes, 12; noes, 34. Mr. THOMSON then moved an amendment, that the debate be resumed at half-past eight o'clock on Thursday evening. It was two minutes past three o'clock when Mr. Thomson stopped speaking. Sir GEOKGE GREY appealed to the Government not by pressing their motion to burke the inquiry into the land transactions in the AVaikato, as there were on the order paper for next sitting two important notices on this matter. Mr Eeid called on the Government to answer this appeal. Messrs Beeves, Murray, and Eitzherbert followed. Mr MuiutAY moved the adjournment of the debate. Mr Sheehan announced that the Opposition was now satisfied and did not care to carry on the discussion, having entered the protest they considered necessary. The motion for adjournment was then withdrawn, the amendment of Mr. Thomson put and negatived, and the original motion was put and carried on the voices.

The House adjourned at ten minutes to four,