PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4414, 13 May 1875, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wednesday, May 12. The Speaker took the chair at twelve o'clock. CUSTODY OF DOCUMENTS. Mr. C. PHARAZYN, without notice, asked where the deed of trust between the Superintendent, the Provincial Secretary, and the Bank of New South Wales, referred to in certain documents laid before the Audit Committee, was deposited ? The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY replied that the deed was properly registered, and all necessary precautions taken by Messrs. Travers and Brandon, the gentlemen who were professionally employed by the respective parties.

manawatu special settlement. Mr. DALRYMPLE asked what progress was being made by Messrs. Douglas and Co, toward carrying out their engagement to settle seventy families upon a block of land purchased by them in the Mauawatu districtr-

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY produced certain plans and tracings referring to the subject, and stated that the selection of portion of the land had been impeded by the natives, who had disturbed the surveys, so that nothing could be done until the arrival of the Native Minister. Douglas and Co., he believed, were willing to wait.

AUDIT REPORT. ’ Mr. PEARCE breught up the following report from the Audit Committee : Your committee have to report that they find the cash balance at the Bank on the 31st December, 1874, (the date up to which the Provincial Auditor has examined the accounts of the province,) correct. They have carefully examined into and taken ev ence upon the reports furnished by the auditor to Council, and are of opinion—1. That the receiving and issuing public moneys without paying them into the provincial account is objectionable. 2. That the dealing with a sum of £25,000 raised under the Wellington Harbor Reserves Mortgage Release Act, referred to by the auditor, was within the spirit of the law. 3. That the committee have ascertained that the deposits from natives, referred to in the auditor’s report, are of very long standing, and that an appropriation is being taken by the Government, during the present session of the Council, for their repayment. 4. With reference to the question of unauthorised expenditure (in the report on the quarter ending 31st March, 1874), the auditor having now informed the committee that the matter has been adjusted with the Treasurer, they do not consider further action in the matter necessary. 6. The committee is of opinion that it is unadvisable that the Government should open supplemen- _ tary accounts at the bank, such as that styled the No. 2 Account, referred to in the auditor's report. 6. The committee having made a searching inquiry into the statement contained in the auditor’s report of 21st August, 1874, respecting certain discrepancies in the public accounts, are of opinion that the errors are probably matters of account, and not a cash deficiency. They recommend his Honor the Superintendent to have an investigation of the accounts made during the recess, the result to be reported to the Council at its next session.

7. They recommend that the following gums. viz.: —£ll4 2s. sd. unexpended balance, advanced to the Provincial Treasurer ; £1163 Bs. Sd., expenditure on Waitotara Road; £1663 2s. 5d., ordinary deposits, be carried to a suspense account and investigated during the recess.

8. The committee are glad to learn that a system of pre-audit has been arranged between the Provincial Treasury and the Provincial Auditor, which they understand works in a satisfactory manner, and request the_ Government to introduce a BUI into the Council at its next session, to give legal effect to the system.

9. With reference to the auditor’s 'remarks on the ” overdraft,” the committee is of opinion that his view is not supported by the Audit Act. 10. With reference to the necessity for a check upon receivers of revenue, the committee have no suggestions to offer.

11. With regard to Memorandum No. 192, addressed to Sir. Speaker, the committee is of opinion that some system requiring counter-signature of cheques should be adopted by the Treasury. It was gratifying to find that an error in regard to certain old balances, the investigation into which had prolonged the labors of the committee, had turned out to be an error of account only, and not a cash error. At the same time it was quite clear that' those old balances should not have been allowed to remain in the books of the Treasury, and the Auditor had done good service in calling attention to them. It would be in the recollection of the Council that year after year the chairman of the Audit Committee had brought up a report, stating that the accounts were in excellent order, that is to say, that the current business transactions of the province appeared to be in perfect order. These old balances, ■ however, were not brought into notice ; but once they were they should not be allowed to exist. It was very evident that the current work of late years had been so heavy that the officers of' the Treasury found it impossible to deal with the back accounts; but if the report of the committee was adopted, that point would be dealt with by the Superintendent during the recess, in getting the matter remedied. He need not offer any further observations, because the report itself ’ dealt with the questions brought before the committee. He would, therefore, move its adoption.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY-said that before the report was adopted he should ask the Council to allow him to insert a few words in < clauses 6 and 7, because the report, as it stood, would naturally lead people outside to suppose that the implied stricture in the 6th clause was a censure upon the present Government. He would like to amend the clause so that it should read in this way—- “ The committee having made an inquiry into the statement contained in the Auditor’s report of 21st August, 1874, respecting certain discrepancies in the public accounts, which, discrcpancies are supposed to have occurred previous to ISGS ,” &c. It was only fair to the present Government—it was only fair to previous Governments—and it was only fair to the Assistant-Treasurer, that such an amend* ment should be made, because this-document would go all over the colony, and would cause persons to be blamed who were not culpable in the slightest degree.. Then, in the 7th clause, he would ask permission to insert words which would make it read—" unexpended balance advanced to Mr. Woodward during his term of office as Provincial Treasurer.” That amend* ment simply embodied a fact, and if the horn member would consent to these amendments the Govemmant would accept the report, and promise a strict and searching investigation into the whole subject during the recess. At the suggestion of several hon members it was agreed to discuss the clauses seriatim.

Clauses 1 to 5 were then agreed to. Upon clause 6 being proposed, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the amendment of which he had already given an explanation.

Mr. PEARCE said there could be no objec. tion to the words being inserted, because there was little doubt that the errors were made about 1865, or prior to that time. At tho same time he must state that it was found impossible to obtain absolute evidence upon the point. The committee had unsuccessfully en-’ deavored to fix the date, and though they had failed, they were clearly of opinion that they did occur about 1865.

Mr. MORGAN said the evidence taken before the committee did not bear out the statement that the errors occurred prior to 1865. Mr. Woodward, who was Provincial Treasurer at the time, had told them in the most positive manner that there was not an error to the extent of sixpence when he handed over the books on leaving office, and they were bound to assume that it had arisen since that time.

Mr. PEARCE ; The hon. member’s state ment is not correct.

Mr. MORGAN said he attended all the sittings of the committee, and he failed to gather anything from the evidence which would lead to the conclusion that the errors occurred previous to 1865. If they had done, it would have been the duty of the Provincial Treasurer to have brought the matter under the notice of the Council; but the Government had failed to do so, and, therefore, he could not accept the amendment of the hon. member. He would himself move that the latter part of the clause be amended, so that it should read—“ They recommend his Honor the Superintendent to pray his Excellency the Governor to appoint an accountant to investigate the acoounts of the province during the recess, the result to be reported to the Council at its next session.” “Ho hoped the amendment would not be regarded in a hostile spirit. He moved it because he held it to be the duty of the Council to express themselves in the fullest manner in regard to tho Auditor’s report, which had been so long before the Council. These errors should be cleared

up in such a way as to leave no suspicion behind. He thought great carelessness had been exhibited by the Treasurer, inasmuch as he had taken no steps whatever to clear the matter up in the time between the receipt of the Auditor’s report and the appointment of the committee. It had been said that the Auditor had exhibited a hostile feeling toward the province. On the contrary, he believed the Auditor had done the province a great service. If there had been any hostility at all, it had been shown by the Treasurer toward the Auditor. It was as much to the interest of the Treasurer as to the Government that the error should be satisfactorily explained, and m ft manner that would admit of no question being raised afterward. The Government, he beard, too, regarded this amendment as a vote of want of confidence. He disclaimed all hostile feeling, but at the same time he felt it incumbent upon him to discharge this duty to the province, and he was prepared for all consequences. Mr. W. S. MILNE took it as a sign of weakness in themselves that they should have to ask his Excellency the Governor to appoint an accountant. For his own part he had as much confidence in the Provincial Council, or his Honor the Superintendent, as he had in the Governor; and if an accountant were required let the Superintendent appoint him. As to the action of the Government, he thought it was rather creditable to them that they had not dragged this matter before the Council in previous years, because the only effect of such action could have been to glorify themselves at the expense of their predecessors. Mr. C. PHARAZYN said it would be much better, instead of saying that the discrepancies were “ supposed ” to have occurred before 1865, as proposed by the Provincial Secretary, to say that “the discrepancies are stated by the Treasurer to have occurred previous to 1865,” There was a vagueness about the word “ supposed” which did not supply a satisfactory meaning, so that it "would be much better to put it in definite terms. As to the appointment of an accountant to investigate the accounts, he thought that would be a wise step, and he hoped the Government would see their way to carry it out. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said he should make a firm stand in opposing the amendment of the hon. member for Wangaehu, which really meant that they should go to the General Government —for the “ Governor ” meant the “ Government ” —and ask them to appoint an accountant to investigate their accounts. The Government could only regard the amendment as a slur upon the elected head of the province, and they should therefore oppose it to the utmost of their power. When it was - stated that the Auditor was not hostile to the province, they need only call to recollection the fact that he was appointed by a Government that was hostile to the province, and that he had for a considerable time acted in an extremely hostile manner towards the provincial authorities. The Provincial Government, however, had tolerated it because they did not want to create any disturbance if it could possibly be avoided. The Auditor was a young man of considerable ability in the manipulation of accounts, but no one but a hostile person could have acted as he had done since his appointment. As to an investigation of the accounts of the province, the Government would be perfectly willing to appoint a person to go through the accounts, and that person, he had no doubt, would be carefully watched by the Auditor, who would make another report to the Council next year. The books, which he could place before the Council at any moment, gave a sufficient explanation of most of the items, and he thought the Council might fairly trust the Auditor to watch the interests of all parties, Mr. LTJDLAM thought it unwise to go outside and ask the General Government to appoint an accountant. Had their accounts been badly kept, or were there any circumstances which demanded the intervention of the Governor, he would not offer the slightest objection ; but in this case he saw no necessity for it, and he should therefore oppose the amendment of Mr. Morgan. Mr. R. PHARAZYN alluded to the difference of opinion between the hon. member for Wangaehu, who knew little of accounts, and the opinion of the hon member for the city (Mr. Pearce), whose business engagements gave him some knowledge of accounts. The latter hon. member was clearly of opinion that the Government were in no way to he reprehended, but really they were perfectly indifferent in the matter, because the discrepancies took place long before they took office, and the Provincial Secretary had alluded to the “ supposed” discrepancies because he did not desire to cast unjustifiable reflections upon any previous occupant of the Government benches. Mr; HUTCHISON said these were not matters of account, but matters of fact. The hon. member for "Wangaehu had informed the Council that the late Provincial Treasurer, Mr. Woodward, had stated that when he handed over his accounts they were correct to a sixpence. , , , Mr. IiUDLAM explamed that the cash account was correct to 6d., hut there were two accounts,—the cash account and the revenue and expenditure account, —and while Mr. Woodward was quite positive that his cash account was quite correct, when he handed it over he was not quite so positive that there were not errors in the other account. Mr. Watt and Mr. Gbaham opposed the amendment. Mr ANDREW supported the amendment of the hon. member for Wangaehu, because he desired to see such an investigation of the accounts as would do his Honor, to the Auditor, and to the Assistant-Treasurer. A person appointed by the General Government would be above suspicion, but he did not think an accountant appointed by his Honor would bo above suspicion. They had all had sufficient experience of his Honor, who used very ambiguous language upon all occasions, the effect of which was that he was not to be trusted. ~ Mr. HUNTER could not sit still and hear any hon. member make such remarks in reference.to the Superintendent, whose word would be* taken as readily as that of any gentleman in that Council or in the province. He thought the hon. member (Mr. Andrew) had been tolerated to an extent that was not in accordance with strict parliamentary practice. It was hardly possible to select terms which would fitly characterise the conduct of the hon. member, but he would leave other hon. members to draw their own inference. He would defy the hon. member to prove his statement that the public of the province always entertained doubts of _ his Honor s truthfulness and reliability. Failing the proof which he knew the hon. member was powerless to give, the accusation recoiled upon himself. With regard to the subject under consideration, he failed to see in what way the present Government could be considered m fault, looking at the fact that these errors arose in 1865, and the Government did not take efface till 1871, some five years a£ter._ By no process of reasoning could they he implicated with the fault. They were wiling to do anything that was fair, and as Mr. had himself stated that he and the Provincial Auditor might in a little readjust the entries so as to make the books balance right, the matter might safely be left in the hands of the Government, who would appoint an accountant, and present his report to the Council at its next session. Mr. PEARCE, in reply, said the proposal of Mr. Morgan was made to the committee and rejected, on the ground that the Superintendent should have power to appoint the accountant. The committee had accepted the opinion that the errors occurred before 1865, and he thought the Council should do so too. The amendment of the Provincial Secretary was then put and carried on the voices, Mr. Pharazyn's amendment being consequently negatived. Mr. Morgan's amendment was then put and a division called for, which resulted as follows :

For the amendment, three—Messrs. Hutchison, Andrew, and Morgan. Against it, eighteen—Messrs. Bunny, Hunter, B. Pharazyn, Watt, Ludlam, Cruickshank, W. S. Milne, Crawford, Wright, Buckley, Graham, Pearce, Lowes, Dalrymple, Beetham, C. Pharazyn, Iveson, and A. Milne. The clause as amended was agreed to. Upon clause 7 being put,

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY proposed that it should be amended as follows: •“They recommend that the following sums, viz., £lll 2s. sd. unexpended balance, advanced to Mr. Woodward during his term of office as Provincial Treasurer ; £1163 Bs. Bd., expendidure on Waitotara-road previous to ISGS ; £1668 2s. 5d., ordinary deposits made with the Government, also previous to ISGS, be carried to a suspense account and investigated during the recess.” He proposed these amendments because the Treasurer’s hook, which he held in his hand, contained entries in fair. Woodward’s handwriting, showing that the sums enumerated were dealt with by that gentleman during his term of office as Provincial Treasurer. It was, therefore, only fair to the Government that the amendments should he agreed to. Mr. Ludlam and Mr. Peaece consented to the first and second amendments, but dissented from the third. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY would then insert the word “ chiefly” before the word “ made.”

The clause as amended was carried. Upon ■ clause 8 being proposed, Mr. LULL AM would like to hear from the Government what their opinions were upon the pre-audit system, which was not law at present, and whether they intended to make it law.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Government approved of the system of preaudit because it saved a great amount of trouble • both to the Government and ; the Auditor. He would not promise to introduce a Bill making the pre-audit law, but if the Government did not they would furnish the Council with their reasons. The remaining clauses were put and agreed to, and the report as a whole adopted. On the motion of Mr. Peaece, the evidence taken before the committee was ordered to he printed. THE EMBEOGLIO. Mr. ANDREW moved, —That in the opinion of this Council, the embroglio with the General Government on the subject of the Bridges Roads and other works Appropriation Act, 1874, was opened by disingenuous statement, continued through illegal action, and has apparently ended on the part of his Honor the Superintendent and his Executive iu silence, not altogether glorious. Mr. LOWES moved the following amendment, —That in the opinion of this Council, motions similar to the present, reflecting opprobriously upon ills Honor the Superintendent and his Executive, are highly derogatory to the dignity of the Council. He thought it high time that independently of any action on the part of the Government the Council itself should express its opinion of the conduct of the hon. member. Therefore, he moved the amendment.

Mr. C. PHARAZYN thought it undesirable that the motion should be taken serious notice of. He hoped it would be withdrawn.

Mr. BUCKLEY considered the hon. member, Mr. - Andrew, much more open to the charge of dislngeuuousuess than his Honor. If it were parliamentary he should characterise this motion, and indeed the hon. member himself, as very silly. However, he would reserve his opinion of the hon. member for expression in some other place. The hon. member had been well answered by Mr. Hunter, and the charges were altogether so undeserving serious notice that he should say nothing further about them. Mr. HUTCHISON confessed that he could not agree with the language iu which the' motion was couched, hut still, as it merely stated a matter of fact, he could not refrain from voting for it. Mr. HUNTER sympathised with Mr. Hutchison in his unfortunate position ; but at the same time it was no fault of members on the Government side of the House that the motion had been discussed at all. That was the fault of those members who seconded resolutions with which they did not agree. Mr. ANDREW said he should accept the amendment with the greatest pleasure, because he regarded it as conveying reproach upon the Council —a reproach well deserved when the Government found themselves incapable of giving any answer to the charge contained in his motion. The amendment was then put and agreed to. ' PROROGATION. His Honor- the Superintendent then entered the Chamber, and delivered the following address : Me. Speaker, and Gentlemen of the Provincial Council, — , I have already given assent to An Act to Appropriate the Revenue of the province of Wellington for a term commencing from the first day of April, 1875, and ending the thirty-first day of May, 1875. I now, on behalf of his Excellency the Governor, assent to the following Bills, viz. ; An Act to authorise the Superintendent of the province of Wellington to sell part of the Wellington Harbor Reserves to the Corporation of the city of Wellington. An Act to amend an Act of the Provincial Council of the province of Wellington intituled “The Wanganui Reserves Management Act, 1874.”

An Act to bring “ The Municipal Corporations Waterworks Act, 1872,” into Operation in and for the borough of Wellington in the province of Wellington. An Act to enable the Superintendent of the province of Wellington to sell Town Acre No. 671 in the city of Wellington to be used as a site for a church.

An Act to authorise' the Superintendent of the province of Wellington to Sell a certain block of Land in the city of Wellington. An Act to regulate the System of Impounding in districts proclaimed under “The Local Boards Act, 1873.” An Act to provide for the Qualification of Members of the Wellington Education Board.

An Act to Appropriate the Revenue of the province of Wellington for the Period commencing the first day of April, 1875, and ending the 31st day of March, 1876. I have reserved for the consideration of his Excellency the Governor a bill intituled an Act to provide for the management of the Sandon Public Park Reserve. You have reduced the estimates to the extent of £SOO, by rejecting the proposed item of £SOO for the importation of coal. On the other hand, you have added items amounting in the aggregate to £1527. The result is that the total authorised expenditure for the year 1875-76, will be £269,659 os. 2d., instead of £268,632 os. 2d. as proposed. By not imposing further increases than you have done on the proposed annual expenditure, you have, I believe, acted prudently, for it will require great exertion to obtain the amount of income neeessary for the performance of the public services authorised to be provided for in the Appropriation Act as passed. Indeed the spectacle presented to our view over New Zealand, at the present time, is that of the constituted local authorities struggling to obtain sufficient money for various important public objects, whilst extensive revenues are being easily collected and readily absorbed by the General Government. It is highly satisfactory to find that you have been able to dispose so readily of the business of the session. I have frequently expressed opinion that the average duration of the annual session of a Provincial Council need not be protracted. It is, I believe, important to aim at simplicity in form and promptness of action in the administration of your provincial institutions. 1 how declare this Council to be prorogued.