PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

New Zealand Times, Volume XXX, Issue 4408, 6 May 1875, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Wednesday, May 5. The Speaker took the chair at half-past seven o'clock. elections to education board.' The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY asked for leave to introduce a Bill to carry out a recommendation of the Education Committee, which sat that afternoon, to cure a defect in the Education Act passed last session, by which a certain amendment, proposed by Mr. Hutchison, was omitted from the Bill. The object of the Bill was to enable the electors of a district to elect to the Education Board any person who might not be an elector of the district, but who was an elector of the province. Mr. ANDREW would not object to the Bill, but he trusted that when it was in committee the Provincial Secretary would permit the introduction of certain clauses, which would have the effect of amending the present Education Act, which wanted a great deal of alteration before it would be suited to the requirements of the province. Mr. LUDLAM did not intend to oppose the Bill either, but he had hoped that the Government would propose some alteration of the present educational system, in which the people of the province, as a whole, had no confidence whatever. The present Education Board simply represented the city, and was altogether central in its tendencies. Mr. BRANDON said the Bill came before the Council without sufficient warning, and he Bhould therefore move that it be read a second time that day six months. Mr. HUTCHISON said the Bill had one simple object, viz., to allow the electors of any particular district to select any eligible person to represent them on the Board.. It was absurd to say that the Bill took : the Council by surprise, because it was purely due to accident that the alteration was not included in the provisions of the Bill passed last year. Mr. R. PHARAZYN hoped Mr. Brandon woidd withdraw his amendment, as the Bill would cure one of the many defects which' were to be found in the existing Education Act.

Mr. ANDREW saw no more reason why the candidates for election, to the. Education: Board should be any more limited than those for election to the Provincial Council. Mr. BRANDON said he had moved the amendment under a misapprehension, and would, with the consent of the Council, withdraw it. Amendment withdrawn, and Bill read a second time. •RETURNS. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY laid on the table a number of papers.and returns. appropriations. The resolutions embracing the votes passed, in Committee of Supply on the previous evening, were read a second time. THIRD READINGS. The Harbor Reserves Sale Bill, the Sandon Park Bill, the Church Site Sale Bill, and the Wanganui Reserves Bill, were read a third time. COMMITTALS. The Land Sale Bill and the Local Districts Impounding Bill were committed and reported. with amendments, which were ordered to be considered next day. THE MUNICIPAL WATERWORKS ADOPTION BILL. This Bill having been committed, Mr. BRANDON said he failed to see the necessity for this Bill when there were already two Waterworks Acts in existence in the borough of Wellington, the one a private, and the other what might be called a public Bill, which gave the Corporation power to levy rates and expend the money raised. It had been said that the object of this Bill was to enable the Corporation to do a certain thing, namely, to pay the interest on its debentures in London. If that was all that was wanted, why could not the Corporation authorities go to the General Assembly and ask to have their private Bill amended. The only effect of bringing the Adoption Act into force would be to create confusion, and possibly a great amount of litigation and expense. He should move that the chairman do now leave the chair.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Bill was introduced at the request of the City Council. The draft had been submitted to the Mayor of the city, who approved of it, and what more did the honorable member want ?

Mr. BUCKLEY said the Corporation had already expended large sums of money upon its waterworks, and were at present in want of funds to complete a scheme which was admittedly of great benefit to the city. The Corporation owed £25,000 to the Trust and Loan Company, and had an overdraft of £9OOO at the bank, upon which he believed they had to pay 10 per cent. The object of the Bill was to enable the Corporation to make the interest on its debentures payable elsewhere than in New Zealand ; in short, the interest was to be made payable in London, the simple effect of which would be that the Corporation would probably get its money at 6 per cent, instead of 10 per cent. He could not conceive what object the hon. member had for opposing the Bill, as he was not in any way injuriously affected by it, while on the other hand the city would be considerably benefited. -Moreover, the Bill was brought in at the unanimous request of the members of the City Council, and it was rather singular that the hon. member should fly in the face of such a resolution. Mr. W. S. MILNE hoped the Council would pay no attention to Mr. Brandon's outrageous nonsense.

After a few further remarks from Mr. Hutchison, Mr. Buckley, the Provincial Seo.betaby, and Mr. Brandon, The amendment was put and negatived. The Bill was then reported without amendment, and read a third time. main roads. Mr. GEAHAM asked the Provincial Secretary what local boards had been entrusted with the charge of the main line of roads passing through their respective districts, and whether the result has been such as to induce the Government to extend the principle to all main lines of road passing through local board districts. ' The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the only local board that had been entrusted with the charge of a main road was tho Turakina Local Board, which received £45 a, mile. ABOLITION OF PROVINCIAL INSTITUTIONS. Mr. HUTCHISON" moved,—That this Council, approving of the resolution of the House of Representatives of the 20th August last, expressing the opinion that " taking the circumstances of the colony into consideration, the provincial form of government in the North Island should be abolished," request the Executive of this province so to arrange the business to be brought before the. Council during its present session, and provincial business generally, as to facilitate the carrying out of the aforesaid resolution, and to co-operate with the General Government with the same object in view, that the abolition of provincial institutions in Wellington may be effected economically, easily, and without any jar or interruption to public business. He was quite aware that the air of that chamber, under the influence of tho Provincial Secretary, was not favorable to free discussion, and he proposed therefore not to take up much of the time of the Council in discussing the motion. He had brought it forward in all earnestness and sincerity, as a common-sense proceeding, which should precede tho action taken by another Government. Since he had been a member of the Council he had been in favor of abolishing provincial institutions, and as the change must come sooner or later, the best thine they could do would be, like Caaar, to take their mantle about them and prepare to fall gracefully. It was all very well for those interested in the continuance of provincial institutions to say that the change would not bo effected. Iheir opinion was not worth much. The wish stood in close relation to the thought. It must not be supposed thut the resolution of the General Legislature was without a purpose. 1 hei reform had been begun, and it would go on until it reached completion. They had been told that the affairs of the province were being done very well, but with tho question whether they were done well or ill ho was not concerned.

Things were on. the move, and they must prepare as speedily as possible for what would undoubtedly come. He was convinced that the provincial system was a pernicious system. The Premier of the colony had told them that he had been compelled to put down a sum of £30,000 as sops to the provincial authorities—to satisfy a species of blackmail, in fact. And then, when they were told that the Provincial Government of Wellington had been so excellently carried on, they were tempted into making inquiry, and he found that no less than 43 000 acres of land had been'sold during the past year without survey. The province had not much to congratulate itself upon there; and as to the condition of things on the West Coast, he was prepared to assert that many of the bridges were dangerous to life and limb. Then as to the immigration arrangements, upon which the provincial authorities prided themselves so much, he could mention a barracks where immigrants were packed together, six people in a room ten feet square, and without a drop of water. [Mr. Bunny: Where?] Never mind where. To go further, he knew that people had been "turned out" without any accommodation at all. The great point in the provincial administration seemed to be to raise large sums of money. The Provincial Secretary seemed to think that nothing succeeded like success. [Mr. Bunny: Hear, hear.] He might be even more explicit and say that nothing succeeded like insolent Buccess. He had nothing more to say, and would conclude by moving the motion standing in his name. Mr MORGAN seconded the motion. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the previous question. The House was asked, in a barren motibn, to adopt a resolution brought down by Mr. Vogel in a at of pique, and passed by a subservient majority. He did not intend to detain the Council for any length of time, but he would caution the Council, before passing such a motion, to look ahead and see what ' was to follow provincial institutions when they' were abolished. The Government which had brought down the abolition resolutions might be very competent to destroy, but they were riot so competent to construct. And it should be borne in mind that this was not a question which should be decided by the Council. It was a question for the people. The Government had shown conclusively that their administration had been successful ; at least as successful as that of the General Government. It would. indeed be interesting to notice whether the General Government came down to the Assembly as well prepared to conduct the business of the country as they had. On the contrary, the Premier, he thought, would have some very difficult questions to answer, notable amongst them being the unsatisfactory negotiation of the £4,000,000 loan. As to the charge made against their management of immigration affairs, it fell with the greatest weight upon the General Government, for the Provincial Government were not responsible for the condition of the barracks referred to by the hon. member. He trusted the Council would not pass the motion, but would carry the previous question. Mr. C. PHARAZYN could not support the motion in its entirety. To his mind it should end at the word " abolished," and then read on as follows :—" Believe 3 that it will' be highly conducive to the good and economical management of the affairs of this province if the proposed change is effected as speedily as possible, other provision being made as found necessary for securing to the people real powers of local administration." The change which was. shadowed forth by the resolution of the last session of. the General Assembly must be beneficial to the country. Its first effect would be to train the people to self-govern-ment. Their affaire would be placed in the hands of local authorities, who would be ruledby only one power, and that power the General Government. The existence of these two , powers—the Provincial and the General Government—was unquestionably injurious to the best interests of the colony. In all departments the two clashed, and the colony was the loser, so that the sooner the change was brought about the better. It was quite possible, the General Government' might not be able to give, effect to the resolution of last session by passing it, -into law in the coming , session, but provincial institutions could not be abolished one moment too soon. With the amendment he had suggested, he should support the motion. .Mr W.S.MILNE said he could not help regarding the Premier as a most untruthful i man, for the Hansard reports contained a speech of his, delivered in the session of 1874, in which he stated that he trusted provincial institutions would have a long career of usefulness; yet in the next session, in a fit of pique, l he proposed that' they should be abolished. The hon. member proceeded to contrast the administration of the Provincial Government as opposed to that of the General Government, and struck a balance largely in favor of the former, which induced him to oppose the motion and amendment. Mr. R. PHARAZYN had frequently expressed himself strongly against the existing provincial system, and he still held the same opinion. In fact, other members of the Council, who now held ' contrary opinions, had made an effort in the same direction as Mr. HutchiJ son. He found that in 1866 Mr. Bunny moved " That the existing provincial institutions were a delusion,, and ought to be abolished." In 1869 he (Mr. Pharazyn) moved a similar resolution, and again Mr. Bunny voted in the same direction. He did not say that the present motion was such a one as lie could support. It might be that the abolition might not take place for some time, and be did not approve of- any step being taken to cripple the Government, while at the same time they gave them administrative functions by pa-siug Bills. Mr. Hutchison had not consulted any other member of the Council before introducing the motion, so that it could not be regarded as a party movement. It was, perhaps, to be regretted that the hon. member had acted entirely upon his owii responsibility, and while he would not say whether or not he would support the previous question, he certainly could not support the motion as it stood. Mr. WRIGHT did not think the members of the Council were sent there to discuss the General Government v. the Provincial Government. They were.sent to do their duty to their constituents and the province as a whole. When the General Government came down with their scheme, and showed what they were going to put in the place of Provincial Councils throughout the colony, then, and then only, would be the time to discus 3 the vital matter. Something tangible would then be before the colony. Mr. MORGAN did not regard the motion as an attempt to cripple the Provincial Government. Its intention was to let them down gracefully, and the Government should offer no objection to what appeared to be inevitable. He would support the motion as it stood. ... Mr. BEETHAMpronouncedhimßelf strongly against the motion. Mr. LTJDLAM, inconsistent as it might appear, must oppose the motion, because those who voted for it would vote in the dark, and accept a state of things of which they knew nothing whatever. Besides, the question could be settled by the General Legislature, independently of any resolution of that Council, and he therefore regarded it as mischievous and unwise to move in the matter at all. It would give the people of the Middle Islandj a strong handle to use against the North Island provinces. It would be said that they sought abolition, and to that he was opposed, because it would destroy the provincial boundaries. He had never been a strong provincialist. In fact, he thought that the system was at first badly introduced, but any sudden stoppage would be a mistake, unless they were prepared to say that they would create road boards, or some other system of local_ government which should be endowed with permanent means in aid of taxation in order to keep their roads open. He should Bupport the previous question. Mr. BUCKLEY did not intend to notice the empty platitudes which had been uttered during the discussion. To come at once to the point, it was clear to his mind that the abolition resolutions were introduced into the General Assembly out of pique. The postsessional utterances of hon. members of that body confirmed his opinion, and it was still

further strengthened by the fact that there was no mention of a constitutional change in what was called the speech from the throne. The resolution of the Premier was introduced out of spite to Wellington in a spirit which was anything but creditable to the statesman who led the politics of New Zealand. To prove that Mr. Vogel had no serious intention in the matter, he need only call the attention of hon. members to a fact of which they were ah-eady aware. The Premier, it would be remembered, had informed the country that the duty of preparing the Bill for defining the new form of government was to be entrusted to a lawyer of colonial repute, who was to prepare the Bill in time for presentation to Parliament at its next session. As a matter of fact, it would take two years hard study, so" interwoven were the_ Acts one with another, to draft a Bill to carry out the contemplated changes and meet the requirements of the country. As far as he could see, and he had given the subject some attention, the mover of the resolution in the House of representatives had no conception of what was the nature of the change to be effected. He considered it would be a long time before any change could be carried out, for the provincial form of government was as much a part of the Constitution as the other. The motion asked them to co-operate with the General Government, which meant that they were to do nothing, for the General Government themselves had done nothing, and the Provincial Government were to help them. It had been very properly said that the motion was a mischievous one. In no way were they justified in interfering with the subject. It was a question for the people. They were the persous responsible for the choice of a form of government suitable to their requirements, and the question should be relegated to them. He should support the previous question. A division being called for, the "previous question" was carried by a majority of 19 to 4. Ayes : Messrs. Hunter, Graham, Wright, Bunny, Lowes, Carter, A. Milne, W. S. Milne, Pearce, Buckley, Andrew, Dalrymple, Iveson, Brandon, Beetham, Ludlam, Watt, Crawford, and Cruickshank.

Noes : Messrs. R. Pharazyn, C. Pharazyn, Hutchison, and Morgan. The Council then adjourned till half-past seven next evening.