PROVINCIAL CHANGES.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4213, 21 September 1874, Page 3

PROVINCIAL CHANGES.

MR. HUNTER’S SPEECH. We have already published extensive extracts from the Hansard edition of the speeches of the Premier and the Hon. Mr. Fox, on the subject of the proposed Provincial changes. We now quote the speech of Mr. Hunter, one of the members for the City, who spoke on the other side of tho question, and whose views it is well for tho constituency to possess, prior to the early meeting with their members for which arrangements have been made : EXPERIENCE OP PROVINCIAL INSTITUTIONS. Mr. Hunter said : — My experience of the Colony dates hack thirty-five years. ■ I have watched tho growth of the Colony from the time Provincial institutions were established in it. I, have seen the course of action followed under these institutions, and I have never failed to stand up iu my place and declare that the prosperity of this Colony is attributable to those institutions, and to the able administration under which they have been conducted in the various Provinces. If we look throughout the length and breadth of this country,—east, west, north, or south, —we see one continued evidence of the activity of the administration of the Provincial authorities from the time power was placed iu their hands. We know very well that the Colony is, at the present time, in a high state of prosperity, and we are all prepared to give credit to whom honor is due ; hut if we look at the past history of the Colony, we will find that the only General Government which is worthy of the name of a colonising Government, is that which has existed during the past four or five years. I have made this statement on many occasions. Before that period, I regarded the General Government - as a mere tax-gathering institution. They collected the 'funds’from the various Provinces, and they Were entirely appropriated to tho expenses connected with the management of the General Government. We have to thank the General Government for the unfortunate complication which arose iu connection with the Native question in this Colony. That complication was entirely attributable to the action of tho General Government, and we are suffering from the effects of it at the present time. We incurred a heavy debt, and wasted and squandered money which was of no benefit to the Colony ; whereas the expenditure we are now authorising hecomesreproductive and beneficial. We have had opportunity, during the last two or three years, .of making a contrast as to the manner in which the funds of the Colony have been expended. We have seen in the one case, that it has resulted in great prosperity; in the other, it almost led to the ruin of the Colony. THE CHARACTER OP THE DEBATE. In the course of this discussion, I have, in common with many hon. members, observed with regret that it has assumed something of a personal character. Sir, I cannot but deplore that men who deservedly occupy high positions in this Colony, should have allowed themselves to fall into such an error. I may at once say that I refer to the Premier aud the hon. member for the Hutt, and I cannot understand why these hon. gentlemen should entertain such feelings towards each other as have been evinced during previous debates. They ought to lay aside these feelings of jealousy. No one has been a stronger supporter of the Premier than I have; no one has had a greater belief in his able administration; but I have known the hon. member for the Hutt from the time he came to this Colony; I have watched his career, and I know that, whether as a member of the General Government or of the Provincial Government, he has done his best to secure the welfare of the Colony and of the Province of which he is the elected head; ! think it is unfortunate—and therein I differ from the hon. member for Invercargill—that any reference was made to the question of dissolution. I think it would have been much better if we had approached the consideration of the real subject of debate in a calm and dispassionate manner. No doubt, the Premier has the right to introduce the subject if he thinks proper, hut I scarcely think it was judicious to do so. We had no reference to any great changes in the speech jUis' Excellencydelivered ,at;_the opening of Parliament, and the fair inference to he drawn from that is, that up to that time the matter had not been discussed iu Cabinet. We had a hint, during a discussion in this House, that it was possible some proposal might be brought forward, and that was followed by a statement, on the part of the Government, that nothing would be brought forward by the Government this session ; yet within forty-eight hours, or perhaps a little longer, we had notice that these resolutions would be brought forward. Those circumstances indicate a great deal of doubt on the part of the Government as to the propriety of the step they are taking. THE RESOLUTIONS, With regard to the resolutions, they naturally divide themselves into three parts : the abolition of the North Island Provinces, the seat of government question, and the compact of 1856. It appears to me that the question is resolved into one, namely, the abolition of the North Island Provinces. Member after member has got up and stated in his place, that this is a question which has been before the country —that the opinions of the country have been expressed upon it. I deny that altogether. We have discussed for years and years, iu every variety of form, the advisability of doing away with the Provincial institutions of the Colony ; but I make bold to say that there never has been before this Assembly, or considered by the people of the Colony, a proposal to do away with Provincial institutions in one island and to retain them in the other. I feel confident that if this question is submitted to tho country the opinion of the people will he opposed to that of very many hon. members in the House, who think the people desire to see the Provinces abolished. There is a large number of people throughout the Colony who have faith in the institutions under which they have lived for many- years, and I think it will require stronger arguments than have been used in this House to convince them of the desirability of making the change contemplated. The reference to the seat of Government might have boon omitted from the reso-lution-altogether. It reminds me very much of three memorable resolutions brought forward by the lion, ; member for Timaru, the last of which was very impor-tant-declaring that tho administration of, the public.iworks had not been satisfactory. Sir;; it was stated' during the discussion the previous evening that- it was necessary to reconcile some .members , to get them to give ..their votes for these resolutions. Allusion was made to the Wellington members, —that they were likely, to be led astray by the terms of those resolutions. I consider the seat of Government question a matter which stands on its own merits. When this Colony was established, as you are aware, Sir, a man-of very able mind—Edward Gibbon Wakefield—the founder, selected:Wellington as the most suitable place for the seat of Government. If his letters were referred to, it would be found that ho pointed out to Colonel Wakefield that in his opinion Cook Strait was the part of the Colony ivhere the seat of Government should be, and that Port Nicholson was tho most suitable spot. The old settlers have always believed he was right, and we entertain the opinion still; but it is a question which tho representatives of the people in this Assembly must decide. With regard to the compact of 1856, I may say I have been brought up as a commercial man, aud my opinion is, that if a man makes a bad bargain he must abide by the result, and if ho makes a good bargain he is entitled to reap the benefit of it. I should be sorry to see any engagements in regard to that compact broke through. The matter was no doubt discussed fully at the time, and its advantages and disadvantages considered. The arrangement having existed since 1856, I do not think it would he right for tho Northern members to show any desire whatever to benefit themselves by that which would be to tho disadvantage of their fellow-settlers in tho South Island. However, I believe these questions will right themselves. Tho North Island will, I think, in due time become as prosperous, if not more prosperous, than the South Island, ought to have an entire unity of interest in all those matters ; and if wo happen to ho under any

obligation to the South Island at the present time, I can only hope that we, or those who come after us, will bo able and willing to repay any obligation which may exist. COLONIAL COMPARISONS. Comparisons have been made between New Zealand and other Colonies, but I think there is no analogy whatever. ! We hear of reference being made to Victoria and New South Wales, but in those countries'they have a recognised capital—they have one centre. ,It is not so in New Zealand. In NewjSouth Wales you have the capital of Sydney, and in Victoria you have the capital of Melbourne! There is one large port' and one large capital ‘to'each Colony. New Zealand ,is very differently constituted altogether. We have, practically, nine capitals, nine centres, and nine Provinces. I have no doubt hon. members, stiue of them, at any rate, will recollect; a work" that was published very early in the history of the Colony, It was entitled The Six OoUnies of New Zealand, and was edited by Mr. Tox, the hon. member for Rangitikei.' In..locking for’ information, bearing on this subject, I do hot think it would be possible to find stronger arguments than were adduced, even at .that early stage—the year 1851. If the House will pardon me, I .will quote a short extract, which is as follows; . ' “ The regular coloniration of the country commenced at Wellington in 1539, and has been effected hitherto in much the same manner as Asia Minor, Sicily, parts of Italy, and North America, were colonised—by the location of separate communities at various points of the sea-coast, separated from each other by physical barriers. Kadi settlement has had a distinct origin and a sepai-ate aim, which, combined with their local separation, makes them more truly distinct Colonies than Virginia and Maryland, or Delaware and New Jersey. One left England as the . pioneer of New Zealand colonisation, and still .retains its old recollections of Native, negotiations and the early hazards of the enterprise ; another, of later date, is remarkable as a Scotch settlement, and revives the recollections of the old country by its kirk, its manse, and its minister, with its names of Dunedin,. Leith Water, and the Olutha ; another consists all of Devonshire and Cornwall men ; another carries out a segment of the Church of England, ■ with a bishop and his clergy as a nucleus round whicli its sentiment is to grow; while another claims to be cosmopolite, and scorns all specialities and exclusivism. Nor do the physical characters of each, and the pursuits of their inhabitants, differ less than their moral features. One is more commercial, another more pastoral, a third more agricultural, while a fourth depends on Native trade and government expenditure. Hence arises, in a peculiar manner, the necessity for a complete localisation of the institutions of Government ; and nothing has more tended to retard the progress of these Colonies than the attempt to govern them by a system of centralisation, the head quarters of which aro removed 200 miles from the nearest and 800 from the most distant of them. But this will more appropriately form the subject of a subsequent section.” In that subsequent section the author says “ The leading feature to be secured is the complete localisation of the institutions of government. I have pointed out in my first chapter the separate and distinct character of the six several Colonies of New Zealand. Physically and socially they have no more connection than the early American Colonies had. To insure effective government, they should be politically as independent of each other. Ido not mean by this that a duplicate of the Colonial Office establishments now existing in Auckland and Wellington should be bestowed upon each of the others, at a cost of some £IO,OOO a year in each, and with its share of local and Home patronage. Such blisters would absorb every particle of moisture in the social body. But give each Colony the framework of a simple elective legislative and executive power in all matters locally peculiar to itself ; bind them together by a Federal Government in a few essential particulars, involving federal interests, (such as ■ the regulation of Customs, ’ &c.), and leaVe them to work out the rest themselves. ' This was evidently what the late Sir Robert Peel, had in his mind when he 1 concluded the great debate of 1815, ancl.it.is tfieijnly practical, and permanent remedy for the chronic distempers of New Zealand.” I hold that these arguments were sound at the time this book was written, and they are equally sound now. Provincial institutions have been worked put in the most satisfactory manner. We have had the test of experience to guide ue, and I say that what is assorted in the book I have quoted from, has not been controverted by any member wh» has spoken in this debate. PERSONAL. REFERENCES. ■ I may be pardoned for saying a few words with respect to the Province with which I am most intimately connected, because it is one of those which it ,is proposed to abolish, and it is the action of the Executive of that Province, as we are told, in connection with other matters, that has led to the introduction of this resolution. The Premier, when speaking in reply on the State; Forests Bill, was good enough to make a personal reference to myself. ■ I was referred to by the Premier as a member of the Provincial Government whicji has opposed 'the General-Government, and tho tenor of his remarks—since I cannot quote them exactly—was, that he excluded me from the strictures which. he made against the Superintendent and Provincial Executive of Wellington. I disclaim such a position altogether. lam a part and parcel of the Provincial Executive of Wellington, and if we have done wrong, I am prepared to take my share of the blame ; while, on the other hand, if our administration has had.a good effect upon tho affairs of the Province, then I think I am entitled to some share in tho credit for that result. It is a singular .thing that the Hon. the Premier happened, to , use in this Assembly the very remark which the hon. member who , interrubted me used _in tho Provincial Couptfil. I was surprised that the Premier, 7 for the originality 'of whose mind I have a great admiration, should have used the common-place expression which had been used by the hon. member for Wairarapa, Mr. Andrew, in another place. Probably it Was that fact which made the hon. member so anxious that I should not quote from the Premier’s speech. The expression used was, that I was an ornamental member of the Executive. My was, and is, that there was a time when, I was a young man, and when, possibly, , i thought myself ornamental ; but that time has Tong passed, and I prefer now to be coiiHulorcd a useful member of the Provincial Executive,‘and'also a useful member of this' Assfihibly. ’ I do hot wish to bo praised at the expanse of others, and I do ribt wish to'be deprived of the credit for. that which I take a just pride in, nairiely, assisting to the best of my humble abilities in promoting the interests of Wellirigtoh during the last few years.

Tllif PROVINCE OP WELLINGTON. A great deal has been said about the Province of Wellington, and what hag been done for it. No person has been more willing to admit that since the present Premier has been in office, the General Government hag done a great deal for us. But what does it all amount to 1 A Bill wag passed by this House enabling the Province to borrow £BO,OOO, Of that money the Province only called upon the General Government to'raise £75,000, and the reason is known to most members of this House. Very shortly after the Bill was passed, Wellington was enabled to negotiate the sale of a large block of land for £75,000, which practically paid our debt. The Province received debentures from the Peilding Association for £75,000, bearing interest at first of 6 per cent, and afterwards 61 per cent. These debentures are now held by the General Government, who have received £14,000 towards the redemption of them, as shown in the schedule to the Piuancial Statement, and the debt will be gradually liquidated in that way 1 . I think the Premier waa ! 'scarcely fair to the Province of Wellington in making no allusion to that fact in his statement. Wellington appears as a debtor to the Colony to the extent of £311,000, whereas I consider that it ought only to be £236,000, if the matter were stated accurately in the accounts. I may say, also, that out of the Wellington Debts Bill, to the schedule of which the hon. gentleman

alluded, £25,563 have been repaid to the General Government; and I make bold to say that no Province has done so much as Wellington in this respect. The £25,568 was paid out of the £75,000 raised, and so the Province reduced its debt ; and the fact is, we have not got the whole of the money raised under that Wellington Debts Act yet. I hold in my hand a letter dated the 3rd August, from the General Government, in reply to three letters from the Provincial Government, written in March, April, and July, which, after that delay, acknowledges , that there is a balance of £5668 still due to the. Province. Then there was a transaction by which the General Government were recouped to the extent of £31,000, in connection with the transfer of. the reclaimed land from the Provincial Government to the Corporation of Wellington ; and immediately after last session £25,000 was paid to the General Government by this so-called impoverished Province, making a total of £156,508 repaid by the Province of Wellington. I must say, I do not thing it was fair to refer to these matters in the way that was done. Now, a great deal has. been said with regard to the contributions to the revenue, but, as I have stated before, the whole of that revenue is collected in the Provinces. What do I find t I find that, in 1873, Wellington contributed to the Consolidated Revenue £125,312; in 1871, £109,673, being an increase of £11,331, or something over 35 per cent; Auckland contributed, in 1873, £213,188, and in 1871, £279,907, an increase of £36,119, or 15 per cent.; 1 Taranaki, in 1873, £10,161, and in 1871, £10,920—a small increase of £769, or about 7 per cent.; and Hawke’s Bay contributed in 1873, £36,168, and in 1874, £52,201, being an increase of £15,736, or 13 per cent. It will be seen therefore, that two of these Provinces, which it is proposed to abolish, have increased their contribution to the Consolidated Revenue, during the last year, by 13. per cent., and -35 per jeent. I do not say that the Income they yield to.the General .Government would be less if they were abolished, but X do say that it is ertdence of the progress they have made, and of their prosperity, and that all that has. been said against them is not correct. The - of Otago has yielded an increase of 35 per cent., while Hawke’s Bay increase has been 13 per cent, and Wellington’s 35 per cent. The increase in Canterbury has been 3S ; per cent., in Marlborough 5 per cent.; in Nelson 15 percent., and in Westland 6 per cent. I say, therefore, that there is no justification for saying that the Provinces of the North Island are in the position which has been imputed to them. A reference to the return of imports and exports will show a very good result. I have not had time to take' out the figures with regard to the Provinces of the Middle Island, but in the North Island the increase has been as follows : —Wellington, imports 31 per cent., and exports 7 per cent. ; Auckland, imports 1 per cent., exports 12 per cent. ; and Hawke's Bay, imports 12 per cent., and exports f per cent. There has been a decrease on the imports of Taranaki of 1 per. cent. These are the Provinces which axipear at the present time to be doomed to destruction. With regard to. the,Provinces with which I am most intimately connected—and I may here say that I am almost as closely connectedwith Napier as with Wellington—l assert that those two Provinces have done as much as any other two Provinces in New Zealand to give effect to the public works and immigration policy. I ask hon, members to look at the immigration returns, and see the number of persons who have , been brought into Wellington, and they will find that we have absorbed an immense number of people ; and I am able to say that both this Province and Napier are essentially Provinces which are capable of maintaining that which will he ultimately the wealth of the Colony—a dense population. We have the capability to do it, and we have the desire to do it, and this has been acknowledged by the General Government. We all know that circulars were sent round to the different Superintendents, asking them if they would take over the control of the immigration department in their respective Provinces. This Province, after some negotiation, undertook the duty ; and.as a humble member of the Executive, I may, say that everything has been, done to assist the General Government in a hearty spirit"in carrying out. its public works and immigration policy. We have only to go back to last year’s Financial Statement to see what was the assertion of the Colonial Treasurer then in regard ■ to some of these public works. He said, “The Colony cannot do justice to such works.” These were the works to he carried on in connection with the general public works scheme, and this is the admission of the gentleman -who brought down that scheme—“ The Colony cannot ,do justice to such works.” It is so pertinent to the question that I would ask hon. members to look at that statement, and they will find that' the hon. gentleman states that it was utterly impossible for tho General Government to attend to all the details of this scheme, and that they must fall to the Provincial authorities. I will not trouble the House by reading his arguments in support of that view. They are clear and cogent, and were to. the effect that we were then in a highly prosperous and satisfactory position, and we ought to leave well alone. THE EFFECT OF THE DEBATE, I come now to another point which the hon. member for Invercargill referred to—that is, the effect of this discussion on our credit. The other evening w« passed a little Bill to enable the Colony to raise four millions more. We" all agreed to it, for we know that it is necessary ; and-1 have no ■ hesitation in believing that it will not be. so difficult an operation as some hon. members think. ■ But I do not think that this proposition to divide the Colony—this proposition which attempts to make out that the Northern Provinces are not in a position to pay their way, and that they are a drag upon the General Government —will be a means to facilitate the negotiation of this or any other loan. The loan is raised on the credit of the united Colony, >nd that has always been upheld. A reference has been made to the money borrowed by tho Provinces, and to the Consolidated Loan Act; but there has never been any instance, even under Provincial institutions, in -which, thers has been any delay or hesitation in paying the interest on every Colonial debt. The credit of New Zealand has always stood lugh, and nothing will do more to secure that result than the financial . statement which has lately gone Home, and which shows the position in which this Colony ri'ort stands. But'l take leave to say that this discussiriu may hare a damaging effect, and I cannot ppssibly see that it orin do any good ; foi; it shows, at any rate,".a disunion amongst ourselves,.anil .it .sho.ws ia feeling- of, dissatisfaction with the Corornment. Possibly that, may nqt. lie the feeling of the majorityof this House'.' "We are told that it will not he,, and I rim not altogether sorry , that such is the case', becausri I believe, for' many reasons, that' it would not be wise that there shonld be a change in the Ministry. I have' recognised in tho Premier the qualifications of the ablest man in the Colony. I recognise in the Native Minister a man who has thoroughly done his duty, and who has deservedly received his reward ; and I ■ think we all admit that the Minister for Public Works is the right man in the right place. All these things place those who think this matter out in a very difficult position at the present time. I, at any rate, feel that I cannot support these resolutions; at the same time, I feel that it would bo a calamity to the Colony if those hon. gentlemen were removed from their seats. THE RELATIONS OP NORTH AND SOOTH. I shall now refer shortly to the remarks of the hon. member for Waitaki, who illustrated our present position by a reference to tho wellknown case of tho Siamese Twins. To my mind that was a most unfortunate illustration'. Wo have most of us read a little about those gentlemen, and we know that many vigorous attempts were made to induce them to allow themselves to he disunited. They had the good sense, however, to resist the operation, and when one of them died, it was demonstrated beyond all doubt that if such an attempt had been made during their lifetime, they would both have died at a much earlier stage than they did. Ours is a similar case. We have born with Provincialism, as some say, or rejoiced with it, os I say, and I think it would be very unwise of us to assent to a surgical operation which would destroy political life in one island, and pos-

sibly in both. The hon. gentleman also spoke of the North Island sponging upon the South. That is an expression which I do not like. I do not think we have ever been guilty of doing that in the sense which the hon. member puts upon it. The Northern Provinces have never asked for that which they did not think they had a just claim to, and I say our claims have been generously and handsomely met by the Southern members. But those claims have not been made and they have not been met in’that spirit which is generally understood by the term sponging. The fact of claims existing does not apply to Wellington so much as it does to Auckland, and I do think that the Province of Auckland has a special claim on the whole Colony on account of the large Native population living in that Province. We came to this country ; we have these people amongst us ; and I think, as long as they are amongst us—possibly it may not be for many years—the South should recognise that the Province of Auckland has a special claim, which, even if it involves additional expense of administration, ought to be granted. It is to be regretted that the war was forced upon us, to a great extent, by the Southern members, but thinking they did right they assisted the North'with a free hand in carrying out those measures which they believed would have a good effect. I must say that I regret very much the course which has been taken by the Government in this matter. Ido not believe that public feeling on this question lias the strength which has been attached to it. When we go before our constituents—and I for one shall be very happy to de so—this will be a matter for very grave discnssiau. Many may recognise the advisability of doing away with Provincial institutions altogether, but with that view I entirely disagree. In that aspect the matter may be discussed throughout the Colony, but I do not think these propositions will bp. in .the North, and I doubt very much whether they will be in the South. I clo not say that Southern members should view it with distrust, or imagine that if the Northern Provinces are done away with the Southern Provinces must follow. But I am bold to say that, if this is carried. out, the tendency, sooner .or later, will be to bring about a uniform legislation for the Colony; for, if the North becomes more prosperous, the people of the South will say, “That which is good for them is good for us.” As I have said before, I should be very sorry to bint in the slightest degree at the desire to interfere with the Southern Island land fund. I think that is a thing which the Northern members should be clear and emphatic about. One hon. gentleman, the hon. member for Collingwood, stated that he would be influenced in his vote by the fact that North Island members would support the Government in this resolution. This is a matter that we can say nothing about until we see the division list; but, I doubt very much whether we shall then see a majority of the North Island members voting for the resolution. I feel sorry . that in the course I shall now take, I shall sever myself from those with whom I have always acted since I came into this House. I was elected to support the public works policy and the Premier, and I should have been very glad if I could have felt it ray duty to support him now; but I have very reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that I should not be doing my duty to my constituents, or to the Colony, if I did so. There are two positions in which we all stand in this House—one as representatives of our constituents, and the other as representatives of the Colony; and in both those positions, I think I am justified in voting against this resolution. As far as my constituents are concerned, I am on the spot, and am ready to answer to them for the vote I shall now give. All I can say to them or to this House is, that I have thought the matter out as carefully as I could, and have come to the conclusion, that it would be neither beneficial to my constituents, nor to the Colony, that I should support the resolution.