LUNATIC ASYLUMS.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4195, 31 August 1874, Page 6

LUNATIC ASYLUMS.

3Troni a collection of reports on tlie Xiimo-tic Asylums of tlio Colony laid before Parliament, we see that since the opening of the Lunatic Asylum of Otago, in August, 1863, to end of March last, 710 patients had been received, of whom 519 were males and 191 females. The number who had recovered their wits under the treatment they received was 463, and the number relieved 21. There were in all 75 deaths. There remained in the Asylum at the end of the statistical year 178 patients—l 27 males and 51 females. Fifteen patients had remained in the hospital from the time of their first admission eleven years ago. The greater number of patients admitted during the year were between twenty and twenty-five years of age, and the next largest between thirty and thirty-five years. Of 56 males, 19 were laborer’s and 11 were miners ; and of 21 females, 11 were domestic servants ; 51 out of 77 patients admitted during the year could read and write, and only three could neither read nor write. Scotland contributed 30 ; England, 22; and Ireland 14 of those unfortunates. AUDIT OP PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Tire Public Revenues Acts Amendment Bill introduced by the Premier is a brief measure, providing for the appointment of two Commissioners of Audit, instead of an AuditorGeneral and Comptroller of the revenue, as the offices may become vacant. The Commissioners, who must not be members of the Executive Council or of the Assembly, will hold office during good behaviour, and can only be removed upon an address to the Governor in Council from the General Assembly. The Governor in Council may suspend them during the recess, and such suspension, if not revoked shal continue In force till the end of the next session, the Commissioners meanwhile drawing their salaries of nine hundred pounds per annum each. The salaries of the Comptroller and the Auditor-General are raised one hundred pounds per annum. The third clause of the Act provides that the balance of interests unaccounted for in the Colony may be one hundred and twenty thousand pounds of Special Funds in lieu of seventy-five thousand, as provided by the Act of 1872. FOUEST NURSEKIES. ' In the course of the discussion of the State Forests Bill on August 7, Mr. Vogel remarked that he proposed that there should be two nurseries established in each island, in the most suitable places, without reference to Provincial boundaries. It would be the duties of the superintendents of these nurseries to distribute seeds as widely as possible ; but he did not wish to interfere with private enterprise ; he had no wish to see the industry of a useful body of men—the nurserymen—paralysed, and would prefer that the managers of the forests should deal with the trade and public hoards rather than with private individuals. In the selection of persons to form the management of those forests, there should be the largest amount of discretion. THE WAED-CHAMIAN INQUIBT. The Ward-Chapman scandal would appear, after all, to have been a case of “ much ado about nothing.” An interimreport, was brought up on Tuesday, August 11, in the House from the Joint Committee, read, and ordered to be printed. It narrated the history of the case, and stated that Judge Ward had acted as unpaid counsel for the defendant in the action Macassey V. Bell. He had become irritated at the granting of the rule for the production of certain telegrams on an ex parte statement, and out of that feeling arose his telegram to Mr. Vogel. That order had afterwards been rescinded by the Judge. The Committee had arrived at three conclusions—lst. That the charge made by Judge Ward against Judge Chapman was not general but specific, and made without regard to its importance ; 2nd. That Judge Chapman, in making the order alluded to on an ex parte statement, did not act in a partial manner ; and 3rd. That the circumstance induced the Committee to think that the Supreme Court Judges should be shifted from time to time. The concluding paragraph of the report was received with some amusement by the House. A second report traced the revealing of the contents of the telegrams to misconduct in the Post and Telegraph Department at Oamaru. A Boyal Commission was proposed to continue the inquiry, but objected to, and the matter is now left in the hands of the Government. DISTILLATION. The Excise Duties Committee of the House of Representatives brought up their report early in the month. The questions submitted to the Committee were :—“ Whether the proposed increase of excise duties is inconsistent with good faith to those who have embarked' iu‘ the business of distilling ? and. whether it would be expedient to, altogether stop the distillation of spirits in the Colony; and upon what terms such measure could be adopted ?” The Committee reported that they had carefully considered the ■subject, and had come to the following resolutions;—“l. That the proposed increase of excise duties is not inconsistent with good faith to those who have embarked in the business of distilling. 2. That it is inexpedient to altogether stop distillation of spirits in the Colony. 3. That, having in view the loss to the revenue from distillation under the present excise duties, and also that the parties now engaged in distillation have expressed their willingness to accept compensation, the Committee is of opinion that the Government should endeavor to arrange with the parties now engaged in distilling, on equitable terms, and with due consideration to their claims.”

Thursday, August 6. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS. ABOLITION OF PROVINCES IN THE NORTH ISLAND. Mr. V OGBL said: With the permission of the House, I wish, to make a fjiW remarks in reference to a matter which has been engaging very general attention. At an early period of the session—when the Financial Statement was made —I did not disguise that it was the desire of the Government to assist the Provinces in this island to continue to discharge their functions, and proposed that fresh assistance in some cases should be given, and in others to do so by loan. The question is very materially changed by the debate which took place upon the State Forests Bill. It then appeared that some of the Provinces, and notably the Province in which we now are, • look upon the measure to establish State forests for the Colony as of a particularly aggressive nature, directed against Provincial institutions generally and this Province in particular. One speech that was made in the course of the debate was of a nature necessarily to direct the attention of the Government to the whole subjectof Provincialism, in this island especially, and the result was the ascertaining of figures which showed beyond an extent I at least ever dreamt of, and I believe hon. members generally ever supposed, the enormous proportion of revenue and means expended in this island that was indirectly expended or supplied by the machinery of the Colony and Assembly. What the impression created in hon. members’ minds generally by those figures is I cannot say; but on my mind the impression was a very strong one. The Government have received assurances from all sides, which leave no doubt in the minds of Ministers that tho majority of members of this House arc anxious to see the Provinces in this island abolished. There are some conditions which X have re- , ferred to—notably the scat of Government and the compact of 1856 —that should he recognised by Act. There can bo no doubt that a large majority of tho members of this House are prepared to assent to such a proposition, and are, I believe. Sir, desirous of seeing effect given to it with as little delay as possible. Therefore, it would be idle to deny that the Government have taken into consideration whether or not it would be opportune to bring forward proposals to that effect during tho present session. After what I said ; the other night there can ho no doubt in any hon. member’s mind as to what my view of the matter is. The question is whether or not any action should bo taken this session ; and, Sir, the Government have come to the conclusion not to ask for effect to be given to this proposal

during' tlie present session. (Hear.) , I will tell hon. members what led the Government to come to this conclusion. First, there is this consideration : that there has been a sort of understanding, partly expressed, and partly implied, that the session should not be unnecessarily prolonged, and that beyond a certain amount .of business indicated by the papers, or by the Governor's speech with which the Assembly was opened, there would not be any important legislation proposed. Although, of course, there is freedom of action in this matter, and the Government have the perfect right to come down and ask for consideration to be given,to all matters the urgency of which has shown itself during tlie session, it would be always well to adhere if possible to any expressed or implied understanding of the kind. But, Sir, the reason that weighed most with the Government in coming to that decision which I have intimated is this ; that although there is a large majority in this House holding the opinions I have hero described —although I believe throughout this Island, and throughout the North and Middle Islands, the opinion of the people of the Colony would ratify such action —that it would be an exceedingly popular thing ; yet there is a feeling throughout the country on the part of those who approve of such legislation that it • would be dangerous action now to indulge in large legislation of this kind in a hurried manner, and without due notice. Even those who approve of the proposal might very justly say, “ after a surprise of this kind, may we. not have a surprise which we could not welcome.” They might justly say whilst Parliament is sitting there must be a great sense of insecurity of large organic measures being passed ordinary notice being given which would enable the people by constitutional means to express their opinions by petition. Therefore, it is quite possible that those who would most approve of the measure, might not regret its being carried into effect hurriedly, because they dreaded the precedent that would be established. It would be surprise legislation, almost in the shape of a coup d'etat. These are the reasons that had induced the Government to come down with the statement which I am nowmaking—r-that it was not their intention to propose to come down to the House, and initiate legislation upon this subject this session. Of course I have no right to prevent the House expressing any opinion on the subject, and I do not wish to assert a right. Many members might think the necessity of the country justified extreme action, but for our own parts we think such a measure would be more acceptable to the country if it came from the country and during the time Parliament was not sitting, thereby giving an opportunity for having the measure not only established in the minds of members, but also in the minds of those who elect the representatives. It seems to us better not to deal with the matter this session. I am, however, not prepared to say that there may not bo brought down resolutions on the subject, I am not prepared to say that we shall do so, or that we shall not. That is a point we have not come to a decision upon. X have taken the earliest opportunity of giving such information upon the subject as I am able to do, recognising how very much hon. members' attention has been directed to the matter. Thursday, August 13. THE GOVERNMENT RESOLUTIONS , ON THE SUBJECT OP PROVINCIALISM. ' Mr. VOGEL, on rising to propose the resolutions standing in his name, was received with applause. He said he approached the subject of the resolutions under a sense of the very large responsibility and the disadvantage under which he labored in having to prepare a speech upon such an important occasion in the very short time at his disposal, as hon. members must be aware of the large amount of business he had to attend to in the House, and to the necessary government outside the House. (Hear.) He might at once state that the action the Government were now taking bad been precipitated by the course the debate on the Forests Bill took. He might at once deal with the facts that came to light during that discussion—that there was a large opposition to carrying out that great measure, solely, so far as he could understand, on the ground that an attempt was made to interfere with the disposal of the lands by the Provinces for Provincial purposes. That fact made a very strong impression on the minds of the Government, Moreover, the figures which then came out — showing- the enormous expenditure in this Island through funds either directly expended by the Colonial Government or provided by the Colonial Government, and the small proportion of that expenditure out of funds of a purely Provincial nature, including land revenue—also created a strong impression in the minds of the Government. There was another feeling which induced the action now being taken, and that was a feeling of doubt whether, notwithstanding the great trouble the Government had taken upon the subject—they were even about to succeed in making proposals to the House that would sufilciently enable the Provinces in this Island to carry on their duties satisfactorily during the present year; and a stronger reason was not only the doubt that they had male sufficient provision for the present year, but the question bow provision was to be made for the following year. The whole of the recess was more or less occupied with financial negotiations with the Provinces, with a view to meeting their requirements—some 'of a pressing nature, aud some merely in the nature o! a desire to expend money—with trying to make arrangements with the Provinces to enable them to come down with the least possible demands for extraneous assistance. - To put the matter plainly, the Colonial Treasurer had not only to finance for the Colony, but was asked to finance for all these Provinces, (Hear.) For a long while there had been a conviction in his mind, as there must have been in the' minds of all intelligent people, that an organic change in the system of Government in this Island was most imperatively demanded. He confessed his own views were until somewhat lately rather in the direction of substituting for several Provinces one Province—of consolidating them into one Province. He was quite sure that that was consistent with carrying on with advantage the business of the country ; and was quite certain there must be either one Province or no Provinces at all. He did not wish to forestall those hon. gentlemen who would take pleasure in taunting him with the various opinions he had previously held on the- subject. Ho owed it to himself to state exactly what course ho had taken. Ever since he bad taken part in public affairs in New Zealand he had seen that some large changes were necessary in the system of Government that obtained in the two islands. Ho was at one time a strong supporter of the principle of separation of the two islands into two Colonies. Whatever might be said In favor of that plan, the proceedings of the past four years had totally made it in his opinion—and very few persons would be found to advocate it—impossible to carry out without very great difficulties and long negotiations. He was also at one time strongly in favor of consolidation of the Provinces. Ho did not recall the opinions he had previously expressed. It seemed to him that in the larger Provinces where there was proper machinery for Government available there would bo greater advantages for carrying on the public business. He mentioned the amalgamation of Southland with Otago as a very wise measure ; and he also thought it would be better if there was only one Province in the island than that there should bo.four Provinces. But the great difficulty in the way of making one Province would bo the jealousy the other Provinces would feel upon, the question of the seat of Government, and the jealousy that would be felt on all questions and conditions of amalgamation. He held that the desirability of one Province in this island was very much modified by the conditions which were apparent, that in reality the General Government did to a great extent carry on the government of thisisland, that its finance had virtually to be provided by the Colony, and that the work of settlement throughout the island was carried on by the Colony. At present Provincial divisions were rather a hindrance and a disturbance than an assistance. (Hear.) The last few years had been a scries of expedients and devices to carry on the Provinces in such a manner as would enable the General Government to gain their consent to carrying on the policy of Public Works and Immigration. In one shape or another they were almost obliged to come down with inducements to the Provinces, in order to induce them to allow the General Government to carry on their great policy, bo essential to the welfare of the. Colony. The Provinces had either thrown their weight against the Public Works and Immigration policy, or had lent it in the direction of the policy upon the condition of providing means, the responsibility and trouble of which had fallen upon the General Government. There might be a few more papers to sign if the General Government had the direct control, but no more care, trouble, or anxiety would bo required. He was sick and tired of it, and would much rather ; that they came to a distinct understanding upon the whole question now, and know whether the power and "responsibility should rest on the same shoulders or not. Another circumstance that had caused the attention of the Government to bo given to this matter was, the wide-spread feeling In the House that this exceptional assistance—not to use the word sop—was not desirable to bo continued; and the widespread feeling that it was desirable to deal with the question in a comprehensive statesmanlike manner. The member for Parnell had specially taken very great interest in the subject, and contemplated bringing down resolutions upon it. He was not going to say that ho believed these resolutions would have been carried, because be believed the majority of hon. members thought so largo a question should bo brought down by the Government. (Hear.) No ‘doubt the action the hon.. member for Parnell took had served to bring out and illustrate the general opinion on the subject held by hon. members. lie was not quite sure that there was not a desire amongst a considerable number, if not the majority of those who would support the resolutions, that they should bo dealt with during the present year. It was not duo to the action of the supporters of the Government, but to the moderation of the Government itself, that instead of bringing down resolutions on the subject, ho was now asking for leave to introduce a Bill. It might be recollected that since 1809 the Colony had virtually accepted the responsibility of settling the North Island. Before the Government of which the hon. member for Itadgttlkoi was bead, took office, there was a profound disinclination to expend mono} on this Island. Since 1800 a different course had been

pursued. In that year the small amount of £30,000 was authorised, and after that £-400,000 additional was authorised for the construction of roads. Since that, in one way or another, there had been a very largo expenditure, either from the Colonial revenue or by means obtained by the credit of the Colony, He reiterated the figures ho used the other evening. During the five years ended Juno 30, 1874, there had been spent in the North Island either by the Colony or out of moneys provided by the Colony no less a sum than £3,389,000. During the three years ended Juno 30 last there was spent m this island either by the Colony or by means provided by the General Government; the sum of £2,387,000: while during the same three years there was- spent from purely local revenue, including land, £448,000. On the one hand the Colony had expended or found £2,337,000, and the Provinces £448,000. f These figures must, ho thought, conclusively arouse in the minds of members the idea that the power of the purse—the power of expenditure aud the responsibility to the House, which was responsible to the taxpayers of the Colony, should rest with the same person. They were not justified in delegating so much power in' a manner over which it was impossible they could have any control. Another point was this: the peculiar circumstances of the island, and especially the Native population that inhabited it, made the Provincial divisions Inconvenient. Instead of aiding the settlement of Native affairs. Provincial divisions had an opposite effect. He recollected some years ago, the member for Rangitikei, as leader of a groat party in the House, came down with proposals by which Superintendents would have been made agents for the General Government in the matter of most Colonial affairs, and specially in the management, to an extent, of Native affairs. Ho was not prepared to say that that arrangement might not at that time have been well carried on ; he believed it could. Ho believed anything would have been found better than the state of affairs which prevailed. With the stagnation then existing, anything was desirable to give an impulse to the colonising spirit which, at the time, was well nigh deadened in this Island, and to a great extent in the Colony. He recollected, as a member of a Provincial Government, year after year vainly endeavoring to obtain the General Government to construct upon any terms or conditions the railway from Dunedin to the Clutha. (Hear.) The hon. member, for Port Chalmers —he did not know whetherhe should make a convert of him—would bear him out in saying that. (Mr. Macandrew; Hear.) When he heard the other night the statement made of what had been done by an hon. gentleman in the House when he was Colonial Treasurer, and compared with that, his (Mr. Vogel’s) action at the time, he asked the House to recollect the widely different position at that time when Provincial Governments were eager to perform the Colony’s work, and the General Government set its face against anythin? like public works, and the condition of the present, when-the General Government had undertaken works upon an enormous scale and magnitxide which few hon. gentlemen four years ago could have dreamed of; and the Provincial Governments in the North Island at any rate only able to perform their part of the work b.> getting the assistance of the Colony to do it. Was it desirable this should continue, was one of the questions the resolutions asked. It was only necessary to look at the map to see the lines that represented the work the General Government did in this island in scarcely more than four years, and the lines that represented Provincial work for perhaps a quarter of a century previously, and to see what the Colony was doing as compared with the Provinces. They wore now running at Colonial expense a coach from Wellington to New Plymouth, and a coach from Wellington by way of Napier to Taranaki. The roads over which the coaches passed were mainly and at very groat expense constructed by the Colony. The moment one went into the interior of the Island he found the Provincial- divisions were' rather a hindrance than assistance to the settlement of the interior. The Provinces declined to take over or even maintain the roads already made by the Colony at such large expense. The fact was that Provincial divisions in the Nbrth Island had no proper meaning: they were not suited politically or geographically, and their i only object was the distribution of personal power, and to give such persons authority over such and such territory. The divisions might- just as well have been made without any knowledge of the circumstances of the Colony as they were at present. Distinct Provincial boundaries might have been suitable in times past, but were wholly unsuitable to the present. Districts had grown up independent of Provincial boundaries which retarded, instead of promoting, the work of settlement. He had said nothing in the way of fault-finding with the governments themselves, nor did he desire to do so. He believed gentlemen more zealous or desirous of promoting, according to their own opinions, the interests of the Provinces it would be impossible to find ; and in some of the Provinces it would be impossible to find men more suitable to the task of promoting the work of settlement than the members of Provincial Councils. They themselves were fettered by conditions which prevented them being able to carry on the work of settlement, on account of the Provincial divisions which exist. He hoped he would be perfectly understood, that he should be sorry to say one word to allow hon. gentlemen to think that he was making any personal complaint. He saw around him gentlemen for whom he'had the most profound respect, not only for them personally, but for their ability. He knew it was not their fault :he was not complaining of that, but only of the system. One of the greatest objections to the present system was in its financial aspect. From year to year they had to come down with these expedients and devices to keep up the Provincial system, and to purchase permission to continue public works and immigration throughout the Colony. It was a grotesque employment of the revenues of the Colony. They had undertaken to construct the roads in the North Island, of which ho had spoken, and paid for them out of Consolidated Revenue, or out of loans charged against the Consolidated Revenue. There were railways and immigration, and subsidies to road boards, all charged to the Consolidated Revenue, and to any increasing extent. Was there to be no limit? Because the circumstances of the Colony threw upon the ordinary revenue all these charges, ought they forget that under different arrangements they might be continued as charges on the Land Fund. He would not at all mince matters. If the General Government took in hand the matter of settling the North Island, one of the changes of the future, after a certain and reasonable time, was that the land fund shall be made applicable for purposes of that kind. He was content to let by-gones be bygones, to pay off to the end the provision they had already made for three years' subsidy to the Road Boards, to take the trunk system of railways, to carry out the provision made for immigration—one and a half millions. He was prepared to go on with all that: but was there to be no end ? He thought there should be. He went to the fullest possible extent in favor of localising the land revenue. He gave a flat and absolute denial to the assertion that the Government had any idea of coming upon the land revenue of the South Island with the view of carrying on the policy. He read a return of the expenditure in this island to show what his ideas were as to tlie classification of local revenue in future in that island, i.e., services that should be charged to the various revenues. The return was obtained from the actual returns of the Provincial Auditors of the revenues and expenditure for 1873. He had no other returns available, and even taking the appropriations was of little value, as some Provinces were in the habit of appropriating to a greater extent than they were able to expend. The actual expenditure included liabilities paid during the year on account of 1872. The figures showed the expenditure for harbor department, hospitals, lunatic asylum, charitable aid, gaols, police, education. • The total expenditure by the Provinces in this Island amounted to £58,045 during 1873. Deducting £71,000 arising from various services, there was a net coat for thescrvicesreferredtoof£sl,34s. The ordinary revenue of the Provinces, under licenses, &c.—strictly local revenue—was £33,000. The permanent debt of the Provinces was £1,100,000. The land revenue during the year amounted to £IIB,OOO, the gold revenue to £14,000, the ordinary revenue, to £33,000; public works, tolls, &c., to £33,000 ; while the capitation and special allowance for 1873-4 was £BB,OOO ; the annual charge on the public debt, £O9OO ; other revenue, £230,000; goldfields revenue, £11,000; surveys £9OOO ; public works, £82,000 ; Executive expenditure, £10,900 ; Legislative expenditure, £2900 : miscellaneous, £13,000. The first idea that struck him when he read those figures was, what did they give tlie capitation allowance for? was it in order to enable the Provinces to carry on certain services ? He was aware that owing to a practice that had grown up, this capitation allowance went to pay the annual interest upon the debt. It was a favorite plan with Provincial Treasurers, to go clown to the Provincial Councils and say they had only received two or three thousand pounds this year. These payments should not cover interest and sinking fund on the Provincial debt. It would bo interesting to look at the proportion the consolidated allowance bore to the total expenditure upon those services by the Provinces. He could not give the exact figures, because in the one case they were made up for the financial year which ended with June, and the other for the calendar year. But there was no difference, because the period was for twelve months in cither case. He found that the total expenditure for the North Island services to which he had alluded was £58,000, and the nett coat, after deducting special revenues received, was £51,000, while the capitation allowances to .the same Province was £BB,OOO. This was to his mind a most significant fact—significant of what a different distribution of the expenditure might lead to. Take the appropriations of the present year in this island, which of course wore much larger than what was actually expended. The total appropriations for the same services amounted to £89,000, whilst they were proposing to give capitation allowances this year -of-£93,000. Ho asked himself if tlie Colony was to pay the. whole cost of these services, should there not bo a margin? lie left out the ordinary revenue amounting to £33,000, and had simply taken the expenditure on those services which the capitation allowance paid. There was a miscellaneous expenditure last year amounting to £13,000, which was very difficult to classify, but be would give them the whole benefit of that. Added to the expenditure of £51,000 there was a total expenditure of £05,000 against £BB,OOO from the Consolidated Revenue. He came to the question whether the services were satisfactory, and asked the Colony whether it was not their duty to look upon : certain services as necessary for the well-being of the; people of the Qolony, and their duty to insist on| their being carried out with advantage, and quite: apart from the question of Provincial divisions. With respect to the proposal for the plan which would follow upon' these resolutions.; hon. members would understand that ho had not a Bill in his hand. Ho was only taking general principles, but they must also understand that those’ principles could not bo given effect-to nil at once. They must do it gradually. The division that should bo made of the revenue would bo this. There should bo a division of what ho would call purely local; revenue, such as was obtained from licenses, and means of that kind, and which amounted last year to £33,000. There should be a division of goldfields revenue, which should bo specially applicable to the purposes of the goldfields. There should bo a division of land revenue; and a division of revenue which was paid by the Colony. That last revenue ho held should be applicable to the services to which ho had referred, loss some amount which should be obtained locally iu the shape of revenue. For example, if they set on a proper footing local Go vernmont throughout this island, after a time at any rate, some portion of the cost of maintaining police, and of the Educational Department, should be borne by these divisions. The land revenue should bo first applicable to the interest on the cost of works constructed from money borrowed on their'

security ; the balance should bo applicable to small local works, and partly to main arterial.works, lie was not coming down with a scheme of distribution now, as it was not a suitable .time. Local revenue should bo localised among the various self-governing districts. The land revenue should be employed on public works which pay interest,and upon public works which include partly small local works, and partly main arterial works of a large character, such, for example, as the harbour works at Taranaki, because the circumstances of this island were such that there should bo a harbor there, if they could do it within any reasonable amount of expenditure. On the West Coast, there was too long a stretcii between Waitemata and Wellington to do without 'harbors if these could be got at anything like a reasonable expenditure. With respect to capitation allowance for local services, he believed there should be a plan as between the two islands that should leave no cause for discontent; and whatever amount was paid in this island out of revenue for the maintenance of services in this island, a proportionate amount should be paid for similar services in the Middle members will study these figures they could not fail to come to the conclusion that if they _ realised with reasonable diligence and not too hastily, the landed estate of this island would plenty of means for carrying on the local works which he had already described, and the other services to which ho had referred would be payable by special allowance made by the Colony. The local revenue would be at the disposal of the local governing bodies. It was not part of the intention of the Government to impound the land revenue for any past expenditure, or expenditure to be authorised for completing the system of trunk railways in both islands. Members might ask what was meant by local Government. When we alter the system of Provincial Government we must bo alive to the fact of the extent to which the people are willing to do so. It was desirable that the people should exercise local control, and it would be their object to introduce such a system as would give the largest possible amount of self-government compatible with carrying out the conditions and provisions which the Assembly required. He was not going to express a positive opinion, but so far he was prepared to say that some such plan as that which they had in the district of Timaru might be adopted with advantage in various well-defined districts. He need scarcely say how desirable it was that there should be one uniform land law. The other branch of the Legislature had called upon the Government to bring down a provision for legislation on the subject of confiscated lands, and it would bo just as easy to bring down a comprehensive land measure to put an end to the very anomalous position in which the land question at present stood. It might not be unsatisfactory to the House to know how it was proposed to deal with the existing Superintendents. (Laughter.) The opinion of the Government was that provision to the end of their term should be made for the various Provinces. with tlie exception of one, in which they proposed to recognise'a life-long service to the Colony. They proposed to make life-long provision for the Superintendent of Auckland. With respect to Provincial Executives, the Government did not think that any compensation was called for in their cases. The Government would take over the obligations of Provinces, and therefore the Provincial officers would remain on the same footing as other officers of the General Government. The scat of government would be Wellington. Any departure from the compact of 1850 ho would regard simply as dishonest. They would give to the Middle Island anv security it required to have it clearly understood that the land revenues of the Middle Island should be solely appropriated to the Middle Island, and that of the various Provinces to those Provinces. He was satisfied that the North Island, properly managed, had resources in land and natural wealth, which would make it independent of the Middle Island. He denied most emphatically what had been announced in the lobbies, that the resolutions meant the ultimate taking over of the Middle Island Land Fund. It was possible that tiie successor a now form of government in the North Island, which would then bo running a race ■ with the great ..‘Provinces of the Middle Island in many local matters, might induce the people in those Provinces to inquire whether their system of government might ■ not be very much improved. There was no doubt the Superintendents! form of government would be put upon its trial, and changes might result from it. The people did not care for persons or forms, but desired good government. Describing the machinery of the government he proposed, the hon. gentleman said it would ho necessary to have a Resident Minister in Auckland, and a Government Agent in Taranaki and Hawke’s Bay. In Wellington, ho thought the General Government could very well manage affairs without an officer. (Laughter.) Mr. Vogel concluded by remarking that he wished to say a few words upon an almost personal question. He had already referred to what might bo said about his having changed his opinions. There were two species of political tergiversation: one which arose from conviction ; the other, Macbethlike, from the whisperings of ambition ; ■ the one purely of a public-spirited nature, and the other of a private and personal nature. No hon. member would suppose that personal ambition, or any personal object, animated him in this matter. Ho had every reason a man could possibly have to remain quiet and not to have taken the matter up. The Government had also a majority in the House. The session was nearly over, and members were inclined to follow the lead of the Government. . No member could for a moment suppose that it was brought down from any other view than a strong conviction that the change the Government proposed was rendered necessary by the circumstances of the country. The course now taken would give him much personal pain, would embroil him in a struggle which would bo liable to end in the rupture of political alliances which bad lasted for many years. Tbo question should bo approached in an open manner, and not in an undermining, sapping, or concealed way. If the result should be that the House and the country should bo averse to the proposed change, it would be a pleasure to the Ministry to retire from oilico with the knowledge that they had not failed to perform what they considered to ho their duty to the country. He moved the resolution standing in his name. (Great applause.) THE DIVISION. The division list on the Ministerial resolutions was as follows : Ayes. (For the Resolutions.) Mr. Andrew Mr. Atkinson Mr. Bluett Mr, Bradshaw Mr. J. E. Brown Mr. Bryce Mr. Buckland Mr. Creighton Mr. Cuthbeitson Mr. Fox Mr. Gibbs Mr. Jackson Mr. Katene Mr. T. Kelly Mr. W. Kelly Mr. Kenny Mr. Luckie Mr. McGillivray Mr. McGlashari Sir Donald McLean Mr. Mcrvyn Mr. Munro Mr. O’Conor © Mr. O’Neill Mr. Ormond Mr. G, B. Parker, Mr. Reynolds Mr. Richardson ■ Mr. Richmond Mr. Seymour Mr. J. Shephard Mr. Stafford Mr. Steward Mr. Studholme Mr. Taiaroa Mr. Tolmi# Mr. Tribe Mr. Vogel Mr. Webb Sir J. C. Wilson Mr. R. Wood 41 Noes. (For the previous question,) Mr, J. C. Brown Mr. Bunny Mr. Curtis Mr. Eitzherbert Mr. T. B. Gillies Mr. Hunter Mr. Macandrew Mr. May Mr. Montgomery Mr, Reeves Mr. Reid Mr. Rolleston Mr. Sheehan Mr. Swanson Mr. Williams Mr. Williamson ... 16 Paths. (For the Ayes.) (For the Noes.) Mr. Carrington Mr. Brandon Mr. Parata Mr. J. L. Gillies Mr. C. Parker Mr. Murray Mr. T. h. Shepherd Mr. Takamoana Mr. Inglis Mr. Thomson ... 10 Absent from the House. Ml - . Harrison, Mr. Johnston Mr. O’Rorke Mr. Pearce Mr. White Mr. Von der Hoyde Mr. Wakefield Mr. Wales ... 8 Absent from Wellington. Mr. Webster Mr. Pyke ... ... 2 Speaker. Sir Eranois Hillou Bell ... ... 1 Total _7B The announcement of the result was received with loud cheers. Tuesday, August 11. ON IMMIGRATION. Mr. VOGEL, observed that in referring the Immigration Estimates to the Committee of Supply he intended to make a short statement on tho subject of Immigration. The expenditure up to the 30th June last, brought to account within the Colony—hon. members must bear that in mind—amounted to £439,000 : so that out of tho original million there remained tho sum of £560,000 unexpended. Tho first-mentioned sum did not ‘provide for expenditure on account of the immigrants now on the way out, hut the completed expenditure, according to the receipts received in the Colony. Ho was not going to make a statement of tho general results of immigration, because the statistics placed in hon. members hands were much more satisfactory. The total results were as follows ; During the year 1873-4, that was from June 30, 1873, to Juno 30, 1874, there arrived in tho Colony 17,513 souls; whilst previously there had arrived in the Colony, under-the Immigration and Public Works Acts, 7503 souls, making a total up to tbo 30th of June last of 25,016 souls. At the same time there were on the 30th of Juno the very large number of 14,530 souls—considerably more than half tho number introduced into the Colony up to that date—on the water and on their way out to tho Colony. The correspondence laid on the table showed the entire history of the immigration proceedings during the past year. Hon. members

would observe that at the end of last session the Government sent Home peremptory -instructions to introduce a system of free immigration, the number of immigrants arriving in the Colony not being adequate to our wants The system was at once commenced, with the result to place at the command of New Zealand, within reasonable limits, almost any number the Colony might desire should be procured. It was idle to deny that the Government were not pleased with the way in which the department of the Agent-General was managed by him. The correspondence showed unmistakeably that there were many points of difference between the Government and the Agent-General. But it was only right to say that they recognised that the Agent-General had worked most zealously, according to his own idea of what seemed to be required. Proceeding to notice the chief points about which there had been disagreement between tlie Agent-General and the Government, first, in respect to tire selection of immigrants,— notwithstanding all that had been said, and that complaints had been made of certain immigrants who had arrived in the Colony, the Government were of opinion that on the whole the selection of immigrants who had arrived had been such that the Colony should be well satisfied with it. (Hear.) They could not possibly bring out a large number of immigrants without some black sheep being amongst them. On the whole we had been very fortunate with the immigrants introduced during the past year. But they could not help recognising that there was no sufficient security that such would be the case in future. They could not disguise from themselves that the machinery under which immigrants obtained passages to the Colony was such that it might be used for obtaining passages for objectionable persons. They had been fortunate that the effect of an impulse being given to emigration to New Zealand had not been to reach that class which yielded very undesirable immigrants. The machinery now in operation was that emigrants were passed up n the production of a certificate in writing from persona who knew, or were supposed to know, the emigrants. It was liable to be abused, and in some few cases had been abused, by persons obtaining fictitious signatures. Therefore, they could not fail to see this, that if after a time the impulse given to immigration to New Zealand, which was gradually becoming greater and greater as the success of those who came out became known at Home, should develop itself to any wide extent, there was not sufficient precaution in the interests of the Colony in the machinery for selection now adopted. To put the ease more plainly, he thought something more in the way of what some of the Provinces had themselves adopted, in having agents whose special duty was to approve and select the immigrants, was desirable. His own opinion was that New Zealand could not only now get all tho immigrants it required, but had a very large range of selection. The Government did not approve of the arrangements at Home for placing the emigrants in depots, nor did they think the medical examination sufficient. They found some ships were allowed to proceed to sea with very defective appliances, and they very much deplored the small accommodation given to that class of immigrants which was more valuable than any other class, viz., those nominated in the Colony. As yet these were only a small proportion of those brought into the country, but endeavors would be made to put that system to more beneficial use than it had been during the past year. Hon. members might perhaps ask—why come down with complaints and' statements respecting differences of opinion between the Government and one of its officers ? Did not the Government recognise this officer like other officers in the service and under the direction of tho Government. Tlie Government did recognise that, but naturally if he was to be asked to explain he must make reference to the subject. The Government recognised the zeal and ability of the Agent-General, but they also recognised that it was desirable, and that it was tlie duty of the Government, to take care that its views were carried out. Tlie House, if it so desired, should have the opportunity of expressing its opinion upon the subject. On the one hand, there was the Government, 16,000 miles away from the base of operations, and, on the other hand, the AgentGeneral, who wrote from the spot, and had larger opportunities of knowing what was going on around him, and between the directions the Government gave and the reasons the Agent-General alleged for not giving effect to them must hon. members form their opinions. The correspondence triumphantly showed that the views of the Government could be carried out. But putting that on one side, the Government considered it to be their duty to require that their views should be carried out if those views received the sanction of the Assembly. On the estimates, when they came on for consideration, there would be opportunities for considering some of the points that had been raised. Eor example, the Government proposed to take a vote for a couple of medical officers, which would raise one question, and had put down a vote for agencies in the United Kingdom, which would raise another question. He would be sorry if he had left in members’ minds any impression that he had intended to say anything unfavorable to the Agent-General ; on the contrary, praise was due to him for his zeal and vigor, and for the great amount of work he got through. His department was unquestionably a largo one, and he (Mr. Vogel) believed he suffered very much from want of proper officers to assist him. To some extent the Agent-General might be blamed for that, because he was not willing to take the officers sent Home to him from the Colony, and who might have been of advantage to him. The department had grown to a very great.size, and the difficulties of organising it had very much fallen to the Agent-General, and in managing the financial operations the Agent-General had co-operated ably and zealously with the Crown Agents. He wished bon. members to understand that he was by no means inclined to have it supposed, that the Government, totally disapproved of the proceedings of the Agent-General ; on the contrary, they felt that in many respects he was most able to fill the position he held. With respect to the proceedings of next year, he might say that the Government did not feel themselves able to state what number of immigrants they considered would be absorbed if introduced during the year. He had a feeling of doubt as to the extent it would be desirable to continue the scale of immigration. The power ot tlie Colony to absorb, immigrants had lately been very hardly tested. Rinding as they did that by limiting tho emigrants’ departure from England to certain months—or rather their arrival in the Colony to certain months—of the year, excluding the winter months from the time of arrival, they discouraged immigration very materially at just the season when it was most likely to be vigorous, they withdrew from the Agent-General restrictions previously placed upon him, and allowed him to continue immigration all the year round. The consequence had been, as ho had already stated, that tho absorbing capacity ot the Colony had been severely tested ; that large numbers of our immigrants had arrived at the very time of the year that was most unsuitable for obtaining them employment ; but it was really remarkable how the Colony had shown itself able to absorb the immense number that had sometimes arrived within a few days of each other. As to whether or not immigration should bo kept up on the same scale, he was not going to express any positive opinion ; his own idea was that it should be modified to some extent. At any rate it should be left to tho discretion of the Government to regulate it as they found necessary. A great deal of the power of the Colony to absorb immigrants would depend on .the raanner in which they were able to introduce the immigrants into the interior. He was glad to say it had been done with the happiest results during the past year. Immigrants had been introduced into tlie interior in various parts of tho country by means of the estahlislunent of depots in country districts and by the local agencies that were employed. Ho did not wish to be egotistical or to take credit to himself, but he could not refrain from saying that it appeared to him there could hardly he any question that the local management of immigration had been on the whole exceedingly successful. Especially in the Provinces of

Otago and Canterbury, the manner in which the immigrants had been seen to and sent to various parts of the country was calculated to excite the warmest feelings of admiration. He acknowledged the great assistance he had received from the Superintendents of those Provinces, and without wishing to he invidious, could not help making special mention of his indebtedness to the Superintendent of Canterbury, who had not only given an ordinary amount' of official assistance hut had personally devoted himself to the subject with zeal and ability beyond any expression of praise he (Mr. Vogel) could possibly utter. He was also indebted to him for the large amount of attention he had given to immigration matters during the past year - , which had enabled him (Mr. Yogel) on many occasions to derive from him much useful assistance by way of advice. Upon another very important matter he felt bound to say that the Government derived not only much assistance, hut to some extent the original conception, from an hon. member of the House. Ho alluded to the establishment of depots in country districts. The hon. gentleman re” ferred to most forcibly drew his (Mr. Vogel’s) attention to the fact that the introduction of a large number of immigrants would materially depend upon the manner in which they were distributed through the country districts, and urged that it was desirable the Government should incur considerable expense in building depots in suitable places, with the view of promoting that distribution. The Government had carried that plan out on a large scale in the Estimates now before the House. Upon the manner in which they wore able to locate the immigrants would, in his opinion, depend the power of the Colony to absorb a larger or smaller number of people ; and the Government had taken liberal estimates for the purpose. They had also taken votes not so much for the purpose of offering employment to immigrants as of opening up roads, and of locating them in places that otherwise would not be suitable for settlement. It was because the Government could not guage the extent of the success which might attend their efforts to locate immigrants throughout different parts of the country, that they could not tell positively what would be the absorbing power of the Colony in that respect. He would- now say a few words upon immigration generally. They had taken for the location'and distribution of immigrants, the sum of £275,000, instead of £250,000 last year; but hon. members would recollect that a large portion of that sum would he almost immediately absorbed' on account of the large number of immigrants now on the water. They had put down, in addition to the items to which he referred, such as medical officers and six months agencies in’ the United Kingdom, two classes of votes to which he directed special attention. One class of votes was for the establishment of depots at the cost of the Colony, and the property in which would remain in the Colony. The other class was advances to Provinces for the purposes of locating settlers, and the construction of cottages upon terms which were described in the correspondence, and which involved repayment of the advances by the Provincial. Governments over a period of four years. In making these various votes the Government had been guided by the consideration of the particular circumstances of each Province for which they were making provision. They had taken each Province upon its merits and dealt with it accordingly as they thought it desirable. Eor ■ example, Canterbury, with its immense surplus lying comparatively idle in the hank, had no object in borrowing £SOOO at 5 per cent.; and when this question came before the Superintendent to construct cottages under advances from the General Government, to he repaid with interest in three or four years, he naturally felt there was no advantage to him in adopting such a proposal, hut there were other Provinces that had shown themselves very inclined to adopt that principle, and where that had been the case provision was made accordingly. Xn some Provinces the construction of depots had already gone on to a considerable extent, but in others everything remained to be done. He had further to state, in reference to the items generally, that some of them represented uncompleted works, and to some extent they were in the nature of covering existing liabilities, whilst iu other cases they were wholly for new works. In the Province of Auckland they proposed for country depots, construction, rent, and management £8000; and for advances for works in connection with location of settlers, including advance for cottages, £9OOO. Taranaki was dealt with upon its own merits. Taranaki and Auckland had received a very small proportionate share of the benefits of immigration .when it was considered for how large an amount they were responsible in proportion to their revenue. In Taranaki for depots and advances for works in connection with location of settlers, including advances for cottages, £20,000. With this money they proposed to cut roads through the rich bush lands of tho Province, and to make the land available for sale. There is no doubt the value of this land would be immensely enhanced, and the advance would be .made upon terms that would give to the Colony a security over the laud. In Hawke’s Bay, for country depots, construction, rent, and management, £2OOO ; and for advances for works in connection with location of settlers, including advances of cottages, £9OOO. Wellington was a Province dealt -with in a manner which he thought would meet the approval of the committee, although at first sight it might seem that the Government put down a very large sura, but hon. members would recollect that during the recess it was proposed to advance, for purposes of settlement, and some other purposes, the sum of £66,000 upon the security of blocks of land to be made available for purposes of settlement. The Provincial Council had passed an appropriation against the proposed amount of £66,000, but looking over that appropriation it was clear that £6OOO of the amount might be properly considered as part of what was to be called promotion of settlement. Therefore they bad no right to charge that £6OOO to the loan, but to charge it as an advance from consolidated revenue. The £60,000 would be paid in advance on land for public works in connection with settlement, on terms provided by the Provincial Public Works Advances Act, 1874. This Bill provided for all the advances to Provinces as intimated to the House when the Financial Statement was made. It dealt with all tho advances excepting two, which would find their places in the Immigration and Public Works and Railways Acts—the latter being one -which -will deal with the proposed purchase of the Otago railways; while the Immigration and Public Works Act would deal with mining works in the Province of Auckland. Besides the £60,000 to Wellington, there would be advances for cottages, £3OOO. Under the head of Nelson, there was an item of £3OOO for the. construction of depots, &0., and £BOOO for advances in connection with the location of settlers, including advances for cottages. They did not put down a large sum for. Nelson under that head, because a measure was to bo brought down to give the Province a loan of £50,000. He thought the House would agree with him that it was best to call a spade a spade; and when making advances, no matter what peculiar form they might assume, that the advances should be recognised as such whether they came down in one Bill or another, and looked upon as so much money, which the Colony lent or gave its credit to allow the loan being obtained. To Marlborough they proposed to make a loan of £14,000, for advances for works in connection with tho location of settlers; and £2OOO for opening up roads in certain districts, where it was represented to the Government very valuable timber might he made available for use. The expenditure would be subject to the approval of the Minister of Public Works, and the work would go on under his surveillance, and upon such terms as might be agreed upon between the Superintendent and the Minister of Works. Iu Westland they proposed £2OOO for depots, and £12,000 for advances for works in connection with the location of settlers. The primary object of this £12,000 was to enable the Government of Westland to extend the settlement of the Province to its southern boundary, and to establish a settlement in tho neighborlxood of Jackson’s Bay. Por Canterbury there was no object for putting down an advance, because the Pro-

vince did not require it. £Booowas put down for depots, &c. For Otago, which had largely availed itself of Colonial funds, and had rendered valuable assistance in constructing cottages in terms of his letter of November last, he put down £IO,OOO for advances to the Province for the erection of cottages and for works iu connection with the location of settlers ; and £6OOO for depots, &o. He might say, generally, with respect to the Estimates, that they had been framed with a view of meeting the circumstances of the several Provinces and the greatest amount of care been taken with them. He concluded by moving that the estimates should be considered in Committee of Supply, which was agreed to. IMMIGHATIQN AND PUBLIC WOBK3 LOAN. Mr. VOGEL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it might interest hon. members to know the indebtedness of the Colony. The indebtedness, after deducting Sinking Fund due, amounted to £12,494,000, of which £9,229,000 were upon Colonial account, and £3,265,000 upon Provincial account. He need scarcely inform hon. members that the Provincial indebtedness was secured upon the landed estate of the Crown lands of the Colony, and the Colonial indebtedness a charge upon the Consolidated Revenue. That amount would be reduced by the sum of £IOO,OOO Treasury Bills, which it was proposed to wipe off on the Ist November next. The loans already authorised, hut not yet raised, were £827,000 of the Public Works Loan of 1870 ; £500,000 of the loan of 1873 ; £192,000 of the Defence and other purposes loan ; £531,000 of the general purposes loan, besides an amount of £22,000 not raised under the North Otago Public Works Loan Act. In all there was £2,051,000 loans authorised but not raised on Colonial account, and £22,000 of Provincial loans not yet raised. It might be asked why it was proposed to raise another loan when there was so much of the power already given unexhausted. The answer was that, it was considered desirable to keep £300,000 of the loan of 1870— debentures guaranteed by the Imperial Government—should remain unsold as a reserve fund. He would give some information to the House with respect to the total expenditure that had proceeded under the Public Works and Immigration Loans. The total receipts up to the 30th June last, and brought to account within the Colony, was £3,870,000, which included £150,000 advanced to the Consolidated Revenue, as explained in the Financial Statement. The disbursements, according to the Treasury books, up to June 30 last were, in round numbers—railway account, £2,070,000 ; immigration account, £401,000 ; roads in North Island, £371,000 ; water supply to goldfields, £IOO,OOO ; purchase of lands iu the North Island, £214,000 ; telegraphic extension, £90,000,; unappropriated, £57,000; interest and sinking fund for works in course of construction, £l-13,000 ; advances to Road Boards, £160,000 ; leaving a balance- of £268,000 — £144,000 in cash and £123,000 outstanding advances. It must be borne in mind that a great deal of the expenditure for public works consisted of advances, and it took two or three months before expenditure in England could be brought to account iu the Colony. It might also interest hon. members to have a .... statement of the loans authorised for public i works and immigration purposes, and the purposes to which the various loans had been devoted. In making that statement, the loan now proposed was taken into account. There would then be a total of ten millions, viz., four millions in 1870 ; two millions last year ; and the four millions for which authority was now asked. Of this ten millions, six and a-half millions were devoted to railway purposes ; one and a-half millions to immigration purposes ; £460,000 to roads in the North Island ; £350,000 to water works on goldfields ; £700,000 to land purchases in the North Island ; and £490,000 for telegraphic exten- • . sion, light-houses, and other public works. Hon. members would understand he had said that, although with the four millions now asked for, a total of ten millions had been obtained, the actual expenditure up to the 30th of June last was only £8,870,000 ; and that there were considerable sums unuegotiated of the loans already authorised ; and that a large amount of that was represented by the guaranteed debentures which it was considered desirable to keep as a reserve fund. For the rest, although a small loan would supply our present needs, it was thought desirable to take authority for a large amount, so as to take advantage of the money market when a favorable opportunity occurred to negotiate as much as it might he thought advisable. Although the difference as representing the interest which the Colony had to pay against the interest which it received on current deposit represented some amount, of loss—a margin of a half or one per cent.—yet it was thought better and most desirable to render the works of the Colony independent, to a certain extent, of the fluctuations of the money market, and to be sure to have money in hand to go on with the great undertakings to which the Colony had pledged itself. He did not know what further explanations he could-make in regard to the Bill. It was strictly for the purpose of carrying on the policy to which very few members of the House were not utterly pledged. He moved the second reading of the Bill, which was agreed to, after a debate of some duration.