PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4187, 21 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

Thursday, August 20. The Hon. the SrEAKEU took the chair at two o'clock. report. The Hon. Mr. Waterhouse brought up the report of the Westland Waste Lands Committee. TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE asked the Colonial Secretary,—" What steps are being taken by the Government to ensure the early completion of telegraphic communication between New Zealand and Europe." The Hon. Dr. POLLEN was understood to say thatrecently the assent of theNewSouth Wales Government to the contract had been received. HIGHWAY BOARDS EMPOWERING BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in moving the second reading of this Bill, observed that it was not a Government measure.- It had been promoted in the other House, which _it had passed, by the Superintendent and Provincial Council of Auckland. The object of the Bill was to amend the 6th section of Act of IS7I, and to repeal clause 2 of Act of 1872. The hon. mover then explained the various provisions of the Bill. He might observe that the Act was not to be brought into operation in any Province unless an Ordinance to that effect be previously passed by the Provincial Council.

The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE could not see that any valid reason had been brought forward why the ordinary legislation should be departed from. He thought the effect of the Act might prove injurious to other Provinces, though advantageous to Auckland, and pointed out how this would be the case in the Province of Wellington. He thought that a rate of Is. in the pound was quite sufficient for ordinary road purposes ; and if a heavier rate were imposed it would tend to depreciate the value of property. As he did not see why a measure advantageous to one Province should be introduced > without any consideration for the interests of other Provinces, he should vote against the measure. The Hon. Mr. WILLIAMSON, as a landed proprietor in the Province of Auckland, should oppose the measure. The effect of the Bill might be to double their present taxation. He therefore moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. The Hon. Mr. WI TAKOopposedthemotion, as the Natives were unable to pay such a rate as that authorised by the Act, and the taxes were already very heavy. The Hon. Mr. SCOTLAND supported the motion, and was sorry to observe that the interests of large landed proprietors and small holders were not identical, and it was the latter only who wished to see the country progress by roads and bridges being made. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES quite disagreed with the remarks that had fallen from the last speaker. It was the large proprietors who were anxious for the construction of roads, &c. He thought the power possessed by the Road Boards at present was quite ample, and should not be increased.

The Hon. Mr. Peacock and the Hon. Mr. Buckley opposed the motion. The Hon. Mr. PATERSON suggested that if there were any peculiar circumstances in the Province of Auckland they should have introduced a measure for that Province alone, and not a general measure tying other Provinces to their peculiar legislation. The Hon. Mr. BONAB. pointed out inconsistencies in the Bill, which he should oppose. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN found himself in the unfortunate position of being sponsor to a measure that was evidently distasteful to the Council. He could only say that he had done his duty so far as he was responsible in moving the second reading. The amendment was carried on a division by 33 to 2. LICENSING ACT AMENDMENT BLLL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in moving the second reading of this Bill, ventured to express a hope that he should be more fortunate with the present motion than he had been with the last. He might observe that the original Bill had escaped from the House a mere skeleton of the measure that had been introduced, the permissive principle being nearly the only feature that had been left. The Bill had been found almost unworkable, and this rendered amendment indispensable. [ The hon. mover then explained the nature of the amendments contemplated by the Bill; but as the measure has so recently been fully discussed in the other branch of the legislature, it will be unnecessary again to recapitulate them.] The Hon. Captain ERASER, on the whole, was in favor of the Bill. It certainly contained some objectionable clauses. He thought these, however, might be modified in Committee. Clause 9, for instance, provided that a man convicted of keeping a disorderly house in one place, might still hold' a license for another. There were other details to which he should refer, when considering the Bill in Committee. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE would support the motion. He was glad that the amendment of the Act of 1873 had not withdrawn the permissive principle of that Act. He thought that the evils deprecated by the opponents of the Bill, resulted from bad administration, rather than any inherent defect in the legislation; and this remark was not confined to the operation of this Act alone. He should have certain amendments to propose when the measure was being considered in Committee, to the effect that when any publican had been convicted of selling liquor so adtilterated as to be seriously injurious, he should not only lose his license, but for ever be unable to hold another. There were other matters to which he should • call the attention of the Committee.

The Hon. Mr. BONAR thought that the original measure had been passed without due consideration, and to that cause might be ascribed its failure. He would support the Bill, but would much rather that the Government could have seen their way to bringing fonvard a comprehensive measure, dealing with all the publichouses in the Colony, instead of leaving so much to local administration. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES considered the Bill a very great improvement on the measure of 1873. There were several matters of detail, however, which he should endeavor to have altered in Committee, such as quarterly licensing sessions, for which he could not see the slightest necessity. He also objected to publicans holding more than one licensed house. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY would not oppose the second reading of the Bill, but ho certainly considered it far from perfect. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN, in reply, said that as the objections were only to matters of detail, which could more properly be dealt with in Committee, he would not detain the Council by replying to them, but immediately after the second reading, would move the Council into Committee for their consideration. The motion was carried on tho voices, and the Bill read a second time.

In Committee an amendment was proposed by the Hon. Mr. Waterhouse, adding the words " provided that new licenses shall be granted only at the quarterly licensing meeting to be held in tho month of June in each year." On a division, the amendment was carried by 15 to 13. In Clause 16, an amendment was proposed by the Hon. Mr. Bockley, giving twenty-eight days' notice instead of twenty-one. The amendment was carried. In Clause 41, an amendment was moved by the Hon. Mr. Wateruouse, for the insertion of the words "or sing." The amendment was lost on a division by 17 to 7. In Clause 42, the Hon. the SrEAKER moved as an amendment that the hours be from ton to ten. Tho amendment was carried. In Clause 44, the Hon. Mr. Peacock moved an amendment restricting the sale of liquors to within a quarter of an hour before the advertised time of train starting and its departure. The amendment was negatived. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY proposed a new clause, bringing billiard rooms, skittle alloys, and such like places under the operation of the Act. The motion was negatived. Tho Hon. Mr. PEACOCK proposed as a now clause—" That a complaint-book be kept

at each licensed house, for the purpose of entering complaints ; such book to be produced to the Licensing Bench." The motion was negatived. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY moved a new clause, to the effect that any one convicted of having sold adulterated liquor should be for ever disqualified from holding a license. The motion was agreed to. On resuming, the Bill was reported with amendments, and the third reading made an oftler of the day for Friday. NEW PLYMOUTH EXCHANGES VALIDATION BILL. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL, in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that in 1854 all the unsold portions of the town were reserved for educational purposes. In 1859, the limits of the town were contracted, and sections within were given for those outside such limits by a resolution of the Provincial Council. He had gone carefully through the measure, and there was nothing objectionable in it. The motion was carried, and the Bill read a second time. THIRD HEADINGS. The following Bills were read a third time and passed:—Whakataki Grants Bill, Outlying Districts Sale of Spirits Act, Order in Council Validation Bill, and Auckland Harbor Bill. IN COMMITTEE. The following Bills were then considered in Committee:—New Plymouth Exchanges Validation Bill, Naval Training Schools Bill, and Oamaru Harbor Board Laud Bill. On resuming, these Bills were reported. The Oamaru Harbor Board Land Bill was then read a third time and passed, and the third reading of the others made orders of the day for Friday. The Council adjourned at a quarter to ten o'clock. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, August 20. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at half-past two o'clock. TELEGRAPH COMMUNICATION BETWEEN NELSON AND THE LYELL. Mr. CURTIS asked, —"Is it the intention of the Government to complete the connection between Nelson and the Lyell, so as to have a second line of telegraphic communication between North and South of the Colony available in case of accident to that at present in use ; and if so, when." Mr. VOGEL was understood to reply that before finally deciding to run a fourth line from Blenheim to Canterbury, the Department would try to secure a line from Nelson to the Lyell, by way of Richmond, and if a such line could be safely and permanently constructed, it would establish direct communication between Nelson and the West, and relieve the existing line to a corresponding degree. LOAN NEGOTIATIONS. Mr. ROLLESTON asked,—"Whether the Treasurer will lay upon the table any correspondence between the Government and the Crown Agents as to the negotiation of loans during the past year." Mr. VOGEL did not consider it desirable that the correspondence asked for should be laid on the table. Correspondence between the Government and the loan agents was written in an unreserved manner, and it was desirable it should be so. The gist of the matter was stated in the Financial Statement; the results had been stated ; and the Government were satisfied with the action of the agents. FORESHORE AT GRAIIAMSTOWN. Mr. O'NEILL asked, —" What steps, if any, have been taken by the Government towards handing over the foreshore at Grahamstown and Shortland, Thames Gold Fields, to the Thames Municipality." Mr. VOGEL thought that it would have been better if the hon. gentleman had abstained from putting his question until after the resolutions now being discussed by the House were decided, because it was one o£ those questions that really hung in the balance. The Government desired to hand the foreshore over to the borough, and considered themselves bound to do so. Two or three years ago he spoke about the matter to the late Superintendent of the Province (Mr. Gillies), and it was quite understood that tho foreshore should be handed over to the municipality on such terms as were thought to be safe. But the present Superintendent of the Province was averse to the proceeding; contending that the foreshore should be placed at the disposal of the Provincial Legislature, under the Public Reserves Act 1854. QUESTION OF PROCEDURE. Mr. ROLLESTQN argued at some length that there should be no further debate on the resolutions re the abolition of the North Island Provinces, because last evening the voices had been taken ; which, as he contended, conrplied with the conditions of the standing orders, and necessitated the question being then put. The SPEAKER, while admitting that the point was open to doubt, ruled that the' question was not "fully" put until he declared that either the ayes or noes had it. EXPLANATIONS. Mr. MACANDREW desired to make a personal explanation. He saw in this morning's paper, in the report of the speech of the hoii. Minister for Public Works, when referring to the Provincial Engineer of Otago, that he (Mr. Macandrew) hpd ejaculated that the officer in question had a bad temper. As this ejaculation might be detrimental to that officer and hurtful to his feelings, he desired to say that the ejaculation was entirely ironical, and had reference to a dispute which had recently oceurredbetweentheColonial and the Provincial Engineers ; a dispute in which the latter had exhibited a mind of his own. No man had a higher opinion of the Provincial Engineer than he (Mr. Maciindrew) had. He was an officer than whom there was not one in the Colony—in fact, he believed there were few professional men in New Zealand—who could hold a candle to him. (Laughter.) The ejaculation was purely ironical. Mr. McGLASHAN also desired to make an explanation. He had stated yesterday that the member for the Hutt was to speak on the previous evening at half-past seven oj|clock, and did so in consequence of a request made to him by the hon. gentleman. He thought it only right to state this because he had been twitted by various persons that something waß wrong. THE ABOLITION.OF NORTH ISLAND PROVINCES. Mr. J. E. BROWN, in resuming the debate on the above question, said the debate had been characterised by splendid generalship, vague generalities, and gloomy forebodings of the effect of the resolutions, not only upon the North, but upon the South Island. He intended to treat the resolutions, first as a question of public policy, and next as a question of absolute necessity for the Colony as a whole. As a question of public policy, he thought the adoption of the resolutions woidd be followed by what ho considered to be most desirable, the homogeneity of the people. They would do away with that great bane of the Colony, Provincial jealousies. And in the course of human things their adoption would be followed by the mind of the public being directed to great questions of public concern, and to the adoption of measures for the benefit of the greatest number. It could not be denied that onehalf of the legislation of the Assembly was caused, not by the wants of tho country, but by the squabblings and the machinations of the Provincial Councils. Another important result of the adoption of tho resolutions would be the substitution of what he believed would be purely local government, and the localisation of the revenues of the country. The effect of the resolutions would also be to release the General Government from interfering with the affairs of the local forms of government. One of tho greatest complaints made by the Provincial authorities was that the General Government was continually interfering. The Provinces could do no single work of any importance—whether the making of a bridge for £3OOO, or a work involving an expenditure of £140,000 —without the Provincial authorities on all sides coming to the General Government for advice and assistance. (Cries of Oh !) Other effects would be that they would have one instead of many land laws, and one education law for the Colony, There was an absolute necessity that they should dispense with Provincial institutions, and do away with the mimicry of these Councils.

Mr. CARRINGTON was going to support the resolutions. It had been remarked that by doing so he was bound to support the second reading of the Bill. But he gave the House to understand clearly that he left himself unfettered. He was not bound in any way until he saw the Bill: until he saw the land fund, and the rights of the people secured. If he did not see the Bill provided a better system of government than Provincialism, he would support the latter. He believed in the seat of Government remaining in Wellington, which meant a boon of £200,000 to that Province. The compact of 1856, he considered a bond of honor never to be departed from, and he would stand by it to the last. He. recommended the Government to submit for the consideration of the Provincial Governments, some little time before the next meeting of Parliament, the details of their scheme.

Mr. SHEPHARD observed that it had been proved, in 1872, that the Provinces had failed, certainly not from inclination, but from want of power, to perform the functions of settling and opening the country, and since that time there had been no indication that they were able to do more than had been previously done. The advantages of the proposed change would be uniformity of administration of affairs, one land law, and the land-fund put in the hands of a central power, having no other object than to promote the settlement of the country. There could be no doubt that the people of the North Island—he was not speaking of the Provinces—would be vastly benefitted by the step. The resolutions, if given effect to, would be received by the vast majority of the people of the North Island with the greatest favor.

Mr. TAIROA did honor to the Premier for bringing this measure forward, but thought it would have been better if they had brought forward a measure to do away with the Provinces in both islands. He believed the latter stood in the way of the General Government dealing with Native and other matters. The best plan would be to have two Governments, one for each island. He would vote for the resolutions.

Mr. O'NEILL agreed with the member for the Waimea that there was a considerable amount of dissatisfaction with Provincialism in the outlying districts ; and he himself said that feeling was especially strong on the goldfields. He supported the resolutions ;at the same time he did not feel so well satisfied, and could not give such a hearty support, as if they had embraced the whole Colony. He had received the following telegram from a friend at the Thames, who knew the feeling there pretty well :—" Feeling here generally favorable to the resolutions, but would be unanimous if the principle was applied to the whole Colony." There had been a want of boldness of nerve and of statesmanship in not making the proposal embrace the whole Colony. Immediately on the Speaker taking the chair, the question was put, " That the question be now put." A division was then taken on Mr. Vogel's motion, with the following result :

Ayes, (For the Resolutions.) Mr. Andrew Mr. Atkinson Mr. Bluett Mr. Bradshaw Mr. J. E. Brown Mr. Bryce Mr. Buckland Mr. Creighton Mr. Cuthbertson Mr. Fox Mr. Gibbs Mr. Jackson Mr. Katene Mr. T. Kelly Mr. W. Kelly Mr. Kenny Mr. Luckie Mr. McGillivray Mr. McGlashan Sir Donald McLean Mr. Mervyn Mr. Munro Mr. O'Conor Mr. O'Neill Mr. Ormond Mr. G. B. Parker Mr. Reynolds Mr. Richardson Mr. Richmond Mr. Seymour Mr. J. Shephard Mr. Stafford Mr. Steward Mr. Studholme Mr. Taiaroa Mr. Tolmie Mr. Tribe Mr. Vogel Mr. Webb Sir J. C. Wilson Mr. R. Wood ... 41 Noes. (For the.prcvious question,) Mr. J. C. Brown Mr. Bunny Mr. Curtis Mr. Fitzherbert Mr. T. B. Gillies Mr. Hunter Mr. Macandrew Mr. May Mr. Montgomery Mr. Reeve 3 Mr. Reid Mr. Rolleston Ml'. Sheehan Mr. Swanson Mr. Williams Mr. Williamson ... 1G Pairs. (For the Ayes.) (For the Noes.) Mr. Carrington Mr. Brandon Mr. Parata Mr. J. L. Gillies Mr. C. Parker Mr. Murray Mr. T. L. Shepherd Mr. Takamoana Mr. Inglis Mr. Thomson ... 10 Absent from the House. Mr. Harrison Mr. Johnston Mr. O'Rorke Air. Pearce Mi-. White Mr. Von der Heyde Mr. Wakefield Mr. Wales ... 8 Absent from Wellington. Mr. Webster ; Mr. Pyke 2 ■'*» Speaker. Sir Francis Dillon Bell 1

Total 7S The announcement of the result was received with loud cheers.. Mr. VOGEL moved the adjournment of the House, as he did not think, after the division just come to, hon. members would be in a frame of mind to go on with the ordinary business. (Cries of "No.") Mr. ROLLESTON objected to the adjournment. Those on his side had no reason to regret their position. (Laughter.) Mr. VOGEL remarked that if ho thought members were inclined to go on with the business he would not have moved the adjournment. With a sitting to-morrow, he could see nothing to prevent the business being got through in a week. After what would be an event in the history of the Colony, it was only fitting that no further business should be taken. Mr. MACANDREW did not feel at all cast down by the division just taken. They were only beginning the fight (Opposition cheers.) It was a very good beginning. The Government should not crow over their victory. (Cheers.) I£ they got on with the business that night they would get home all the sooner. After a few remarks by Mr. Beid, the motion for adjournment was negatived. PROCEDURE OF BUSINESS. Mr. VOGEL intimated that he proposed to give up Monday afternoon to private members and to take Government business in the evening. For the rest of tho week he would take Government business, except on Wednesday, which would be a private members' day. BILLS. The Goldfields Act Amendment Bill No. 3, tho Harbor Board Bill, and the Otago Land Bill were passed. The Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill was read a second time. Tho Nelson- Public Works Loan Bill was discharged. There was a slight debate on the Real Estate Descent Bill, and ultimately further consideration of it was adjourncd_ till Wednesday. The amendments by the Legislative Council, in the Wellington Waterworks Loan Bill were agreed to ; but those made in the Marlborough Waste Lands Bill were disagreed with. At 9 p.m. the House adjourned.