PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4185, 19 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 18. The Lyttelton Gas Bill was read a third time and passed. In reply to a question by the Hon. Mr. Holmes, whether the Government intended to appoint a Surveyor-General, The Hon. Dr. POLLEN stated that it had not yet been decided whether a. competent officer for each Island should be appointed to carry out the vote of £SOOO which had been passed, or whether the same would be entrusted to a Surveyor-General for the whole Colony. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. Menzies, the second reading of the Taranaki Iron Sand Smelting Works Land Bill was made an order of the day for Wednesday. NEW ZEALAND FORESTS BILL. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN moved the second reading of this Bill. The Hon. Colonel BRETT referred to India, where for every tree felled the feller had to plant three trees, and no tree was allowed to be felled before it had reached maturity. The forests were not allowed to degenerate into waste lands, but were preserved as forests. He next drew attention to the connection between forests and rainfall. He hoped that they would not appoint Tom, Dick, or Harry, to the office of conservator, but that they would send for the most skilful person to be procured, and not put one of the clerks in that building in the office. The curse of the country was appointing to offices men who knew no more about the subject than the man in the moon. The Hon. Mr. WATEBHOUSE expressed himself as not altogether favorable to the measure. They were all aware of the advantages of forests, or that forest-planting would bring about. He thought with Colonel Brett, that more good would follow planting on a small scale as breakwinds, and to prevent rapid evaporation. He opposed the illusory ideas that the Bill was calculated to engender. A more visionary idea than that by the provisions of this Bill, they would be enabled in thirty years to pay off the indebtedness of the Colony, it was impossible to conceive. Only one more visionary idea had he met with, and that was the one promulgated by the father of the present Bill, with reference to the paying- * off the National debt of Great Britain. There was evidence to this effect. Forests were not such a financial success as most people imagined. Quoting from the figures employed by the Hon. the Premier, it would be seen that the forests only produced three or four shillings per acre. So it was at Home. His sole objection to the Bill was, that they ■were called upon to sanction this delusion. He believed that in future times, when manias had subsided, there was nothing at which the finger of scorn would be more pointed than the idea that by this measure they would be enabled to pay off the Colonial debt. The Hon. Mr. HOLMES disagreed with the last speaker. He thought the BUI highly desirable, and one calculated to do an immense amount of good in the Colony, irrespective of its mercantile success or otherwise. If one of the objects of the Bill was to increase the quantity of the timber, it would be a boon sufficient to commend the Bill to him. He thought the Provincial Governments should have"met the General Government in a more amicable spirit. He should vote for the second reading of the measure. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL thought the Bill was a futile attempt on the part of the Government to do that which was outside their functions. The planting of forests should, he thought, be left in private hands. The Bill could only be a success in one respect, that of providing billets for adherents. The Hon. Captain FRASER was pleased with the Bill, and should have been more so had it come before them in its entirety, before it had been mutilated. He thought the Government had made a mistake in not having passed a law similar to that which obtains in the Dominion, where the Government retain their rights over the forests, even when sold to private" individuals. He thought it was quite right not only to conserve the present forests, but to take care for the future by planting. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY supported the measure, and only regretted that it did not go far enough. He hoped next year the Government would be able to bring down a measure that would go further. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES opposed the motion. He did not think forests could be conserved by any action taken by the Government. He suggested that the Bill should be dropped, and that the Government should take in hand large nurseries and encourage Botanic gardens. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON thought it desirable that the Bill should be taken up by the Council. He could by experience bear testimony to the benefits of planting, and though directly the advantages of the measure might not be very great, they could scarcely over-estimate the indirect advantages accruing from its operations. As a proof of the great adaptability of the soil to tree planting,_he might mention that from acorns he had carried in his pocket in 1856, he had now oaks upwards of 40ft. high. He had great pleasure in supporting the motion. The Hon. Mr. BON AH, after a careful perusal of the papers laid before them, could come to no other conclusion than that the Bill was a highly desirable measure. Hon. members seemed to oppose, not the principle of the Bill, but the machinery by which it was to be carried out. He advocated the introduction from Home of skilled persons of high standing in the art of forestry. The very fact that only one-third of the natural bush of New Zealand was fit for timber purposes was quite sufficient to show the necessity of conservation. The requirements of the mining community were also very great, and ought not to be lost sight of. The Hon. Mr. WILLIAMS was of opinion that the decay of forest timber was not owing to the forests being opened, but to the introduction of cattle, which destroyed the bark. He should support the measure for two reasons : it benefited those parts of New Zealand which had timber, and those parts which had none. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN briefly replied. _ The motion was then carried on the voices, and the Bill read a second time. SECOND EEADINGS. The following Bills were read a. second time *. —Dunedin Waterworks Bill, Auckland Harbour Bill, City of Christchurch Drainage Debenture Bill, Regulation of Elections Act Amendment Bill, Westland Waste Lands Act Amendment Bill. IN COMMITTEE. These Bills were then passed through Committee, and, on the Council resuming, were reported without amendments. TIIIBD HEADINGS. • The following Bills were read a third time and passed : —Dunedin Waterworks Bill, Regulation of Elections Act Amendment Bill, and Marlborough Waste Lands Act. SOUTHLAND WASTE LANDS ACT AMENDMENT BILLThe Hon. Mr. MENZIES moved the second reading of this measure. The Hon. Mr. NURSE proposed as an amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. ' A long debate ensued, in which most of the hem. members took part. On a division, the amendment was carried by 17 to 10. • GRASS AND FOREST VIRES PREVENTION BILL. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY moved the second reading of this Bill, which, on a division, was carried by 12 to 11. Tho Council adjourned at midnight. HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, August 18. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. THE WAITEMATA ELECTION. The petition in reference to this election, complaining that Mr. Von der Heyde was not duly elected, and asserting that Mr. J. S. Macfarlane was, was brought under the notice of the House by the Speaker. Mr. Moorhouse, * as counsel for Mr. Von der Heyde, and Mr. Buckley, as counsel for Mr. Macfarlano, appeared at the bar. Mr. Von der Hey do, in answer to a question from tho Speaker as to the member he would desire to

represent him on the Committee, nominated Mr. R. G. Wood ; and Mr. Buckley, for the petitioner, nominated the member for Eden (Mr. Creighton). The Speaker appointed Mr. Walter Johnston to be Chairman of the [Committee, and fixed to-morrow (Wednesday), at 11 a.rn., for striking the Committee. FOULING OF STREAMS. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD asked,—" Whether the Government will cause a.case tobe submitted to the decision of the Supreme Court, as to the right of miners to foul rivers and streams under the existing Goldfields Acts." He explained that several suits had been commenced against tho miners of Otago, for fouling streams and rivers by their mining operations, and it would be much in the interest of the miners that the ! doubt at present existing, as to their right to | do so, should be set at rest. Since he had given ! notice of the question, he had received a telegram from the Secretary of the Dunstan Mining Association, informing him that Mr. Glassford, a runholder, had commenced an action against a party of miners, seeking to recover £IOOO damages from the miners, for fouling a stream. Unless legislation took place, or the miners were found to be in a sound legal position, the miners would have to stop their operations in Otago. He trusted the Government would favor the suggestions contained in the question. Mr. VOGEL replied that the Governmentrecognised that the question was a very large one; at the same time it would not be right for the House to interfere until it knew what were the rights of the respective parties. There was no power for the Government to adopt the course suggested by the question, but if the two litigants would agree to state a case, the Government were prepared to have it argued on both sides at the public expense. Mr. SHEPHERD, in reply, said it would be easy if necessary to raise a friendly suit, with the view of deciding the question, and steps would be taken to take advantage'of the offer of the Government. TELEGRAPH TO RUSSELL AND HOKIANGA. Mr. WILLIAMS asked,—"When it may be reasonably expected that the Telegraph works will be completed to Russell and Hokianga ? And also, if it is the intention of the Government to have the line surveyed through Whangaroa to Mangonui, with a view to extending the Telegraph to the Mangonui district." Mr. VOGEL replied that it was through no fault of the Government that the work had not been pressed on more actively. The line had been surveyed, and seeing that it extended over 236 miles the work was not a light one. He did not expect it to be completed before the end of February next year ; but he hoped by that time it would be finished. The line involved the supply of 4700 piles, contracts had been let, and the piles would be delivered by the end of the year. A portion of the wire and materials had already been forwarded. With respect to other question—the willingness of the Government to have a survey made as far north as Mangonui—he had to say that so soon as the line was sufficiently completed as to release Mr. Floyd, the Engineer, the Government would have the survey made. NAPIER TO PAKI PARI RAILWAY. Mr. ORMOND asked,—"lf the Government will take steps to insure that the line of railway from Napier to Paki Paid, which should under the contract have been completed nearly twelve months ago, shall be open for traffic in November next." Mr. RICHARDSON replied that the delay on the works connected with this railway had been a source of great annoyance to the Government. During last year great pressure was brought to bear on the contractors by the Department to cause them to push on with the works. The contractors said they had met with great difficulty in getting timber, not only for sleepers, but for bridges. The only answer he could give at present was the reply of the contractors to the application of the Department that greater progress might be made with the work. The contractors said that portion of the line from Napier to Hastings would be read for traffic by the fir3t of October, and the' permanent way of the Hastings-Pakipaki end woufd be completed, so that that part of the line might be ready for traffic in the middle of November next. The contractors further wrote that the delay was owing to their sheer inability to get timber for the bridges, though they had spared neither trouble nor expense. Mr. Richardson concluded his remarks by assuring the hon. member for Napier that the Government would spare no pains to push on the work. THE WARD-CHAPMAN COMMITTEE. On the motion of Mr. J. L. Gillies, the name of Mr. Vogel was substituted for that of Mr. O'Rorke on the above Committee. ABOLITION OF NORTH ISLAND PROVINCES. Mr. MACANDREW, in resuming the debate on this question, observed that he did not know that he should be able to say anything new, or anything that had not yet been expressed by the previous speakers. The question, however, was so very important in its bearings upon the future welfare of the Colony that he should not be justified in giving an altogether silent vote upon it. To his mind it was a question that demanded very grave and very earnest forethought and consideration —forethought and consideration which he feared very much had not been bestowed upon it by many hon. members of the House, or by his Excellency's Ministers. He quite agreed with a good deal that fell from the hon. member for Clutha yesterday on this point. He had no doubt if the subject had been fully considered it would have appeared in some shape or form in the speech with which his Excellency had opened the present session of Parliament. He had no doubt also that many members would oppose the resolutions from entirely different and distinct stand points and on different grounds. Some of them would doubtless oppose them because if given effect to it would be i a very heavy blow and great discouragement to the principle of local self-government throughout the Colony, and more especially and immediately in the North Island. That was a view which no previous speaker had apparently taken into particular account. To his mind it was a very important view of the question. Others, no doubt, would oppose these proposals on the ground that administration, in order to be efficient and economical, must be local, and converted into the hands of those who were directly responsible and accessible to the people. (Hear.) There were, again, others who would oppose the resolutions on the ground that if the Government took over the Provinces in the North Island it would cause an administration that would be considerably in excess of what it was now. The member for the Taieri, in his speech last night, brought that out very clearly—and to liia (Mr. Macandrew's) mind most conclusively and incontrovertibly ; and he would not follow him in the figures he had brought forward. Experience went to show that with an overflowing purse the establishments of the General Government were very likely to assume—in fact, were assuming—a magnitude quite disproportionate to the interests of the Colony. (Hear.) All those who had any experiencein the matter and reflected over it must admit that these establishments were assuming, an alarming magnitude, quite out of proportion to the requirements of the interests of the Colony. Another ground on which the resolutions would doubtless be opposed, was that if given effect to, they must inevitably result in one purse for the Colony, and in the territorial revenue not only of the South, but of tho North Island, being appropriated by the House, and they knew the practical result of that was that the compact of 1850 must necessarily be abolished. Many would no doubt oppose the resolutions, some on one, and others on different grounds. For his own part he opposed them on each and all those grounds, but more especially because he felt assured that the result must be spoliation of the Middle Island land revenue. That was the great reason ho had for so strongly opposing tho proposals. No doubt, they were told that the compact of 1856 would be ratified, that the Act that was to sweep away the North Island Provinces was to secure beyond all doubt the land and goldfields revenues of both islands for local expenditure. He confessed he thought hon. members from tho South must be very verdaat indeed—(laughter)—if they could bo led to suppose that tho land revenue of the South Island could be made one whit more secure

than it was at the present moment." For his' own part he could not lay the flattering unction to his mind that any resolution on the part of the House would render the territorial revenue more secure. (Hear.) It was manifest that the House might at next session sweep away the whole of the revenues of both islands into the maelstrom and vortex of Colonial finance. As he had said before, he considered he had come to the House, as had all the members for the Middle Island, for the purpose of protecting their land revenues. To his mind that was the apple of their eyes, and he was prepared to sacrifice all secondary considerations to preserve it. Viewing that matter in relation to the undoubted result, which must be the ultimate appropriation of those territorial revenues, if he might be allowed to say so without offence, those of the Middle Island members who voted for the resolutions, unwittingly and unintentionally no doubt, were in effect breaking the trust that had been reposed in them. (Hear, and cries of dissent.) Such was, however, his opinion. He said they would be betraying their trust, and he could not impress that too much iipon the members for the South Island. He could not conceive how members could have allowed themselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter. (Laughter.) Looking at the cost of government in the North Island, there was not the slightest doubt that the cost of government, if these proposals were carried out, would be very much in excess of what it now was. Not only would they have the cost of government increased, but they would have breakwaters at Taranaki and Napier, and goodness knew what else. Just in proportion to the -extent of the cost of these undertakings and the cost of government being in excess of the revenue and resources of the North Island would be the extent the Middle Island would have to pay. That was a proposition that could not be gainsaid. He could not conceive what possible object the head of the Government could have for raising this question at the present time, when the North Island was recovering from the effects of a disastrous war, and entering upon a career of prosperity which in all probability would in the course of a very years, in so far as its population and wealth were concerned, place it in a very superior position to the Middle Island. To his mind it was a most unwise step on the part of the House to nip in the bud that divine spirit of self-reliance which at the present moment was coming over the North Island. In effect they were saying this to the North Island, "You have not got the means of protecting life and property ; you have not got the means of repressing or punishing crime ; you have not got the means of educating your children ; you have not got the means of constructing roads and bridges and other public works —if you had the means, we see you have not got the capacity to attend to these things, therefore we take you over ; we have got plenty of money for these things ; we will have pleasure in attending to them for you ; therefore we relieve you from all necessity of exerting yourself." That was the plain English of the Premier's language. The House had heard during this debate a great deal about the absorbing qualities of the blue gum, as applied to the hon. member for the Hutt. He thought they coidd perhaps find a better simile to apply to the Colonial Government in its wouldbe relations to the North-Island Provinces. The Upas tree would be a better figure if applied to the Colony, which was the Upas tree beneath whose pestiferous shadow all life died. (Hear, and laughter.) He sincerely hoped the people of the North would scorn with indignation any attempt to repress their feelings of independence, and that they would spurn with scom and indignation any idea of sponging on their neighbors. What petitions had'they had in favor of this thing ? He believed not one. What evidence was there that the' people of the North Island desired to relinquish the privileges of local self-government conferred upon them by the Constitution. There was no such evidence whatever, but rather the reverse. No doubt when the feeling of the country came to be manifested, it would be found that they were not lightly prepared to relinquish what had cost them so much to acquire. The member for Rangitikei had to fight a stout battle to acquire those principles which he (Mr. Macandrevv) was afraid that hon. gentleman was now prepared to assist in relinquishing. The House had been told that the North Island Provinces had become effete and useless, and could not carry on the functions which had been assigned to them. Whether it was so or not, it was the action of the House that had deprived them of the means of doing so. ■ The people of the North Island contributed to the Colony £i 2s. 6d. per head. Surely in all conscience that amount was sufficient to cover all the primary functions of government, and a great deal more besides. There was not the slightest doubt that in the hands of an economical Government it would be so. Out of that four pounds odd all that was doled out to the Provinces was 155., with which they were expected to perform their functions. The member for Egmont said the Provinces could not be expected to make bricks without straw, yet he first deprived them of straw, and then turned round and said, " Gentlemen, if you won't make bricks we will abolish you." If, instead of abolishing the North Island Provinces, the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government had come down with a proposition for abolishing—perhaps not for abolishing, but for clipping the wings of the Colonial Government in the North - Island—it would have have been a wise and statesmanlike proposition. He felt perfectly sure that when the people came to see their own interests, as he hoped they would some day—when a colonial public opinion came into existence, he believed the people of the Colony would rise and demand with a voice of thunder some such policy as this. The people of the Colony was the cue now. They had been burdened with a load of debt above that of any other British community. If this Legislature had confined itself to the functions which the Constitution Act intended it to do, that load of debt would not have been. For years the Legislature had been acting-towards the Provinces the part of the dog in the manger. The Legislature would neither go in for immigration and public works itself nor let the Provinces do so. When the genius o£ the hon. member at the head of the Government succeeded in changing the spirit of their dream, instead of using existing organisations, as he (Mr. Macandrew) had every reason to believe he intended and desired to do, in carrying out his policy, he was-compelled either to abandon his scheme or, in order to meet the views of a large party in the House, to organise a totally new establishment and to administer the policy from a centre. He considered this had been the weak point of the whole affair, and the results were not far to seek. He thought he could point to them not very far from where he now stood. He had no hesitation in saying that had the Provinces been entrusted with the administration of the millions of money that had been expended during the past few years, the Colony would have double to show for that expenditure compared with what it now had. He said further, when the ten millions had been expended they would have found 'Something more than the five millions in the shapo of actual value received for it. To his mind this was not the time for going in for constitutional ■changes. He knew he would be twitted by the member for Parnell with certain proposals he (Mr. Macandrew) made some years ago with regard to the Provinces for the two islands. Ho would be quite willing to go in for that again ; but that was a very different story from what was now proposed. was not the time for going in for constitutional changes such as were now proposed. If they did go in for changes let them be thorough ; let them have two Provinces, and confine the Colony to taking charge of federal affairs and dealing with the outside creditors. That would be a simple, and the most inexpensive form of Government which ho believed could be adopted. He had got a number of notes with regard to some remarks by hon. members, and especially by the member for Riverton. That hon. member made great use of the Diana and Ephesian line of argument, but he (Mr. Macandrew) would not weary tho House by following him. Before he sat down he warned the supporters of this proposal that if the Bpirit which had evoked these resolutions was allowed to bo'in tho ascendancy in the Colony there was no safety o£ any interest of„

the State against the caprice or the neediness of the Government of the day. Hon. members might perhaps wake up to find what he now stated was correct when it was too late. He would vote for the amendment of the member for Selwyn. (Applause). Mr. REYNOLDS .thought there was very little for the Government to reply to. There might be some questions for his colleague the Minister for Public Works to reply to, but he repeated, so far as the Government were concerned, there was really very little to say. (Hear: and cries of "Oh.") None of those who opposed the resolutions had yet shown any reasons why they should not be agreed to, or had combated the arguments brought forward by the Premier. The oidy ono who had at all approached the question was the member for Port Chalmers ; and even he did not in any way convince the House that the change was not advisable. It had been argued that no question of great constitutional changes ever came before the public at the time this Parliament was elected, and that no demand for such a proposal had ever been made by the people. He was prepared to say that both of these statements were iucorrect. During the late general election, in vei'y numerous districts of the Colony the question was brought up and well considered by the electors. (Hear ; and cries of " Where ?") It had been taken up by the Press throughout the Colony for a considerable time past. To show that an agitation had been going on from 1563 to 1872 in favor of some constitutional changes, he quoted from Hansard the resolutions and speeches of Mr. Fox, Mr. Macandrew, Mr. Reid, Mr. Murray, Mr. Steward, Mr. T. B. Gillies, and himself. The member for the Taieri asked why the House should be asked to take up the question. Before Parliament met, the Government considered how it was possible to meet the absolute requirements of the various Provinces, and came to the conclusion to make the proposition contained in the Financial Statement of the Treasurer. But no sooner was the Statement made than there was evident dissatisfaction throughout the whole of the Northern Provinces; no one seemed to be satisfied ; everyone was looking for more ; in fact, for more than the Colony could afford to give. The Government were thus forced to proceed in the matter in some way, and the only way they could see of taking up the question was by a proposition such as that now before the House. No doubt, as was said by some hon. members, the resolutions Were not possibly so definite as they would have liked ; it was not possible to bring down resolutions in such a short time. It would require great consideration : but the House was asked to assent to the propositions, and to allow the Government to consider the measure they would propose to introduce. The member for Port Chalmers complained that they should sacrifice everything to secure—(Mr. Macandrew : All secondary considerations)— the land fund. The hon. gentleman did not need to sacrifice anything. (Hear.) The land fund was perfectly secure to the Provinces, but in order to make it more clear the Government were quite prepared to pass an Act that could not be repealed without reference to Her Majesty. Nothing could be more secure than that. If there was any remonstrance from the Provinces of Otago and Canterbury, containing as they did three-fifths of the population" of the whole Colony, Her Majesty would never be advised to consent to the repeal of such an Act. If that was the only objection the member for Port Chalmers had to the resolutions, he might well waive it and vote for the Government. (Hear.) Mr. MONTGOMERY, in rising to address the House, wished a little consideration to be shown to him as a new member. He had risen apparently early in the debate because he thought it very likely abler men coming after him would say much that he had to say better than he could himself. Among other objections he had to the resolutions, not the least was that they had taken the country by surprise. They knew very well that there was no intention of any such large changes shadowed forth by the Government either in His Excellency's speech- or in the Financial Statement of the Treasurer. They knew also that it was the wish of the country that the great public works initiated by the Premier should be carried to a successful issue ; that it would require the leisure and the entire administrative qualities of the gentlemen forming the Government to carry out these works. The country wanted repose, and not to be agitated by large and important questions which were equal to revolution. He had not heard the Premier's statements, but when it was announced in the South by telegram that the North Island Provinces were to be abolished, he heard expressed all round him a feeling of surprise that this large question should have been brought before the House, not after the calm and deliberate consideration of the Cabinet, but brought hastily forward in consequence of the strong language used against the Government by the member for the Hutt. He repeated the change was a revolutionary one. Referring to the proposals of the •Government, he called attention to what the Premier called local self-government. The only approach to local self-government spoken of by the Premier was the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works. Hon. members were not aware what the Timaru and Gladstone Act was ; he scarcely believed the Premier knew it. The objects of that Act were the construction and management of roads in the district, and distribution of certain appropriations of territorial revenue arising within the district. The Board had no power whatever to do more than distribute and apply that money ; it had no power to levy taxeaor rates. To all intents and purposes it was simply a Board for distribution. But he did noF understand that to be local Belf-government ; but to be legislating to some extent by bye-laws, and having the power to levy rates within a certain limit. The Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works only received 25 per cent, of the total land revenue of the district, and the Provincial Council appropriated other sums ; so that hon. members would see it was a miserable approach to local selfgovernment. But if the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government meant by local self-government a Board that would distribute money or apply it to public works, the money to be found by another body, he could believe such a form of Government would suit well some parts of the North Island—for example, the district the member for Egmont represented. (Laughter). The warmest advocate of the resolutions could not say that a resident minister at Auckland, and agents at Hawke's Bay and Taranaki was a good form of local government. Something very different, some better scheme must be laid before tho House before it would accept it. The Government proposed to calm men's minds about the Middle Island land fund by making it secure by Act of Parliament. He asked hon members to consider if it could be secured in the Assembly of a country where the constitutional changes could be brought in one session, and the same power that swept away whole Provinces and unsettled men's minds throughout the Colony could repeal that Act immediately afterwards. He said, with the member for Port Chalmers, that they did not want any security for the Middle Island land fund beyond what \va s right and proper. They had the laud fund and' would keep it. Taking the Northern Provinces meant taking over the Middle Island Provinces. But the danger to the South was not the loss of their land fund as a fund, but that they would have a very largo and united people in the North who would be followers of the Government of the day, ■ and soon have an enormous debt to settle the North, which "debt would have to be borne by the whole Colony, and in reality borne by the South in proportion to its wealth. He could not conceive any larger question than this coming before the House. It was one that would agitate the country from one end to the other, and one he did not think any of them could see where it might load to. It should not have been brought forward at the end of the session and in the manner it had been. He looked upon the Premier as possessing those large qualifications necessary for a statesman, and having the energy of character and of purpose which made him extremely valuable to the people of the Colony ; but it was a blot upon his fair fame that he should have brought down such a revolutionary measure. Ho was not such a strong Provincialist as some members. No doubt Provincial institutions, as \\nderstood in times past,

would pass away, but he entirely objected to those institutions which had done an amount of good passing away until they knew what was going to be put in their places. He would vote for the amendment of the member for Selwyn. He could scarcely expect that anything that would be said would cause the Government to withdraw the resolutions, but it would be better for the country that they should content themselves with the expression of opinion that the House would consider the matter when a Bill was brought down, and leaving members of the House and the country to consider in the meantime what would be the better way of dealing with the matter. But whether these resolutions were carried or not, or whether a Bill was brought down this session, andgiven effect to (as hehad heard people say) or not, it would be agreat wrong to the peopleof the country if they did not go to the people first. Before any great o* s <imf. change was made the people should be consulted. Xiioj «m,i r i no t undo a great thing like this after if was done ; but in the meantime there was sufficient done now to unsettle men's minds. He hoped the good sense of the House would carry the previous question. (Hear.) Mr. STEWARD supported the motion. The question was one on which the country expected its members to express themselves, and for that reason—without speaking for Hansard —he desired to give the reasons for the course he was about to take. It was possible the debate might produce some new political alliances. Hon. members, however, had not to regard the question in any other light than how it affected the public. He regarded the resolutions as the initiatory step to great changes, and if his constituency did not agree with him in the view he was disposed to take of it, they would in another session send up some other person to represent them. He justified the action in proceeding with the matter now, because if it had been proposed in the first session of a Parliament it would have been objected that they had not settled to their work, and if in a last session that they were moribund. A fourth session was a proper time to consider it, and lie wa9 decidedly of opinion that if the resolutions were put before the country now the opinion of th; majority would be decidedly in favor of ths Government. The country had expected that the question would come on this session, and the people were prepared to entertain it. The two islands were in the condition of the Siamese twins —they could not be separated. The question of dissolution between them was at an end ; but Chang, the Middle Island twin, objected that anything should be done for Eng, the northern brother, lest harm should happen to Chang. It was proposed, now, to operate for the cure of Eng from a malady under which lie was suffering, without doing harm to Chang. The question had been so often discussed in years past that every man in the House had long ago made up his mind on the subject, and he did not think that any member in it hoped to persuade any other member to coincide in his views ; but still he thought it was the duty of members to express themselves upon it. The Government were perfectly right in the course they had taken. Had they brought down a Bill in place of resolutions, the objection taken would have been ten times stronger than it was. He did not support "the motion because he believed that all the Provinces of the North Island should at once be abolished, or that the land revenue should be appropriated by the General Government, but he did so because it was full time that the subject should be considered by the country. He declined to accept the figures given on the previous evening by the hon. member (Mr. J. L. Gillies) as having any true bearing, because such explanations could be given as would put an entirely different complexion upon them. In voting for the resolution he did not commit himself to vote for the Bill of next session, of which he would judge when it was before the House. The admitted prosperity of the Colony was traceable to a certain date. Its beginning was very marked, and he should like to ask whether that beginning was attributable in any decree whatever to . Provincial institutions. The hon. member for Port Chalmers said the effect of the resolutions would be to teach the Northern Provinces to sponge upon their Southern neighbors, but had they not done so for years past ? If the resolutions were carried, as he believed they would be, by a sweeping majority, there would be no necessity for a dissolution ; but the hon. member (Mr. Macandrew) could at once procure all the effects of a dissolution for himself by appealing to his own constituency on the subject. The Superintendents might regard their Provinces in the spirit of the old forester — Woodman, spare that tree : Touch not a single bough ; but the cry had long ago gone abroad, cut it down ; for the provincial tree was dead, and only fit to be cut down, and another and a better planted in its stead, when the proper time came. It was because the axe was laid at the root of that tree that he voted for the resolutions.

Mr. SHEEHAN opposed the resolutions at great length, for the purpose of placing on record the reasons why he did so. He gave the Premier the credit, up to the moment of placing hisresolutionsbeforethe House, of having done everything possible in his power to assist the Province of Auckland. He could not trace out the real causes why this motion was placed before the House. He attributed it to the appearance in the House on a late occasion of a member of great influence, who in 1867 was spoken of as "a power behind the throne" ; but that appearance had Been comet-like, and he thought this legislation would hereafter be called comet-legislation. He believed that if a majority of the House should agree with the resolutions the country would not give the same verdict. He thought they were suffering from personal government of a most' objectionable character, for the Premier was the sun of the Ministerial system, round which the other Ministerial planets revolved at a respectable distance. A bad night, a fit of indigestion, or nightmare, might be followed by great constitutional changes; a medical department was wanted. The hou. member must have known, years ago, the impecunious position of the Northern Pro vinces, and that fact strengthened the supposition that the change proposed was attributable to an accident. The hon. member then reiterated from Hansard the charges made against the Premier of having changed his opinions on the subject of Provincialism, and again went over a review of the probable motives that had animated the Premier, and the possible consequences of the vote. The Government had staked their existence on the passage of the resolutions, but the sacrifice was not great, for the House had been carefully canvassed previously, and forty-eight members had ple'dged themselves to vote for the Government. He suggested that Taranaki and Hawke's Bay might be extinguished, as well as the smaller Provinces in the South Island, but he would not go with the Government to the full extent of their proposals. They bristled with Bops for the Provinces. He denied that the Northern Provinces hadeyjer"sponged" on the Southlsland^"-*"**" 6^1 " likely to do so. was overworked was n° reason why Provincial institutions should be abolished. Mr. TRIBE came to the House as a supporter of the Immigration and Public Works policy, believing that it left nothing for the Provinces to do. He held to the same opinions still, and therefore would support the resolutions before the House, as a first step towards the abolition of Provincialism generally in the Colony. The competition of the Provinces for loans years ago had been ruinous, and destroyed the credit of the Colony as a whole. He did not believe that public works could be more shamefully mismanaged than they had been in Canterbury* that rich and prosperous Province. He pointed out a variety of the inconveniences occasioned by Provincial distinctions. He thought that general legislation in -Parliament was killed by the presence of Superintendents and Provincial officers in the House. It had been remarked that no petitions had been presented to the House in favor of the abolition of Provincialism, but petitions were of little value, and the subject of the resolutions had been discussed session after session, year after year, until I the whole country was tired of it. The country, he believed, was tired of Provin--1 cialißni. As for the Press ; The Press of the

West Coast was unanimously in favor of the resolutions before the House, and hoped that the new system would soon be extended to the South as well as to the North Island, of which he thought the resolutions were but the forerunner. It was wise, however, to commence with the experiment in the North Island. Up to the present time the only member of the North Island who had opposed the Government was the hon. member who had last spoken, who was a Provincial officer. The hon. member (Mr. Reeves) who had moved the previous question, was a Provincial Government contractor, and he thought that every member who had spoken against the resolutions was more or less intimately associated with Provincial institutions. The Constitution of the Colony had been altered in many particulars more than half-a-dozen times, but on all those occasions it was in the direction of creating new Provincial distinctions and offices—and the House made no objection to it, but now, t.,^' —""• Mm action was in the opposite direction, there was a great uuvwj.- xr_ to,.„„i ,„jfj, *.],„ Premier that the Colony was ripe for the change proposed. He hoped the country would be appealed to on the subject at the close of next session. One half of the members of the present House were recipients in one way or other of Provincial money, and therefore they were not unbiassed in tlleir judgment on this matter. He desired, however, that at the same time a redistribution of representation should take place. If the Government were'forced to go to the country they would have nine-tenths of the constituencies at their back. Mr. GIBBS supported the resolutions, believing that a majority of the North Island members were in favor of them. Mr. MURRAY opposed the resolutions, and charged the Premier and the Government with disingenuity in their proceedings with reference to Provincial institutions.

Mr. HEADER WOOD thought the Opposition had done well in selecting the hon. member for . Selwyn as " their leader. A distinct issue had been put before the House, a formidable Opposition had been organised to meet it, and yet the opposition that had formed to oppose it was of the weakest character. They should have met it with a distinct negative, and told them what it was they really wanted. They might have told them if they were dissatisfied with Provincial institutions what they desired to substitute for it, but they preferred to say nothing. The gage of battle had been thiown down by the Premier, and not one member of the Opposition had the courage to take- it up. When the. policy of public works was first introduced he saw that the days of Provincialism were numbered. When, a few days ago, he placed resolutions on the subject before the House, he did so as an independent member, and without consultation with any hon. member but the hon. member for Franklin, who agreed to second his resolutions.- In this matter he was able to say that he could give his support to the hon. member, the Premier. The arguments of the opponents of the resolutions would not bear examination. The hon. member at the head of the Government had proposed no organic change. He had not proposed any Bill; and the hon. member for Selwyn had not had to appeal to the Speaker to stop the passage of a Bill to alter the Constitution. Tiie only question the House was asked to answer was, has the time come when a change in the Constitution of the Colony is necessary. The next argument of the hon. member for Selwyn was that the time was inopportune. He was of opinion that there was no time like the present. The hon. the Premier had been accused of very sinister designs. He was desirous of making himself the supreme ruler of the Colony, said the hon. member for Selwyn, but the Premier was proposing to consolidate rather than to divide the Colony. It was urged that no petitions had been presented in favor of the resolutions of the Government, but he had never seen that any good resulted from the presentation of petitions. There was nothing dreadful concealed under the resolutions, although one honorable gentleman thought we were all, under them, to be converted into Frenchmen and placed under French law. The Premier had said that the Government could not come down every year to borrow money for the Provinces ; but the Superintendent of Nelson—who had been a conspicuous member of the government of prudence—dared to take the view that because the Colonial Government had every year to borrow for itself, therefore it should also borrow for the Provinces. That one reason alone would satisfy him in voting for the resolutions, that the Government could not go on borrowing for both. No threat of a dissolution had been held out by the Premier, as the hon. member for Clutha had suggested. The hon. member at the head of the Government was simply forced into the position he had assumed. It was supposed, that he had only uttered a threat to keep the Government 'of Wellington in order ; hut it was evident that higher motives had animated him. He did not deny that he had looked upon the plan of the hon. the Premier for the initiation of public works with some alarm ; but he could not forget that in 1872 the hon. member for Auckland City West (Mr. Vogel) had told them that he did not care to engage in a game of unlimited 100, but he had done so, and secured all the stakes, and from that moment the country was committed to a policy of public works and immigration from which it could not now depart. He had no doubt that a large saving could be effected in the Government of the North Island were it in the hands of the General Government, and could in no way support the argument of the hon. member for Port Chalmers. As to the difficulty of financing for the Provinces, he thought the statement of the Treasurer should be authority enough on that point. He claimed the hon. member for Port Chalmers himself as a convert to the idea that the present system of double Government was a great mistake. The Government had done what the hon. member for Akaroa had said they should do. He thought it was perfectly possible to make one land law for the North Island. There had been such a law, in the time of Sir George Grey ; and it was a much better system than that which had prevailed since. The condition of the Governments of the Provinces of the North Island had been a source of anxiety and embarrasment to the General Government for years past. He thought the House now was grateful to the Upper House for having, last session, put a veto on their proposals for borrowing. The subject had not been discussed upon its merits, but from a great variety of curious ideas. The South and the North were entirely at variance on the matter, but he thought that neither were right. What had the land fund to do with the question ? The principle of the compact of 1856 was that the land fund should be locally distributed. That was the view of the Premier ; that was the view of the opponents of the measure; and thatwasthe view he held: But jfjJw-koarinSmTjers for the was nothing m it that the House would force it ■ "Uponthem. Provincialism had been the only form of local government they had, and in the earlier days they did it well ; but as time went on those institutions that had at one time been local became central; and in their turn had handed over local government to still more local institutions. If Provincial institutions were abolished to-morrow, Government would go on as before. The business of the Land Office would be conducted as it was now. There would be nothing left but the gaols, the hospitals, and the asylums, and he did not thiuk that Provincial Governments were necessary to pay the salaries and expenses in connection with these establishments. He thought the advances proposed to be given to the Provinces inMit be very injurious to their credit. The last session of the Council of Auckland was occupied simply in passing hogus estimates ; and it was quite impossible that the estimates of the Provincial Treasurer could be realised. He did not know the reason why an impossible estimate was then put forward until he was in his place this session, when he found a Loan Bill on the paper for £40,000 for Auckland. He sympathised with the Treasurer in the position in which he was placed in having to perform this duty of a dual finance. Mr. WILLIAMSON was brought to his feet by the unwarrantable assertions of the member for ParaelL Would the House be-

lieve one word of these statements when he placed the true, facts before it ? After referring to the contest for the Snperintendency of Auckland, when he was elected over an opponent who staked his election on views similar to those held by the member for Parnell, he said an unexplained reason for the present resolutions might be found in the determination of the question of precedence as between the General Government and the Superintendents. He complained that all thought was being centred in the Colony, when the Provinces really assisted the Colony ; but the Colony had grown to such agreeable magnitude that the Provinces must be eaten up. Instead of the Provinces squandering money, it was the General Government ; and he instanced a sum of £60,008 squandered in the North of Auckland, where the Minister for Public Works had never been. It was spent under the supervision of Mr. Katene ; and he would like to know where that hon. gentleman learnt civil engineering. He denied that the Province of Amre ' aSBSerSL to mislead a deliberative assembly had never been made than that in reference to the £40,000 advance to the Province. With respect to the seat of Government, the same majority that removed the Government from Auckland could take over the Middle Island Provinces, as he believed would be done before long. None wanted to dispossess Wellington of the honor. And with reference to the compact of 1856 there was no necessity for confirming that by law. It was done long ago. The Loan Allocation Act of 1856 showed a law which gave to the Middle Island the land in trust for colonising purposes, because they liberated the other parts of the Colodj from the New Zealand Company's debt then due. He had been an ultra-Provincialist himself, and believed the time would come when the Provinces might be dispensed with, but that time had not yet come. Had the debate gone to a division to-night, without being hostile to the Government, for he hail voted on all occasions according to the pledges he made when contesting the Superintendency of his Province to support them, he would, no matter what the consequences, have felt bound to vote against the resolutions. The affairs of the Colony should rather be allowed to go on in peace and quietness than be allowed to drift into a state of anarchy. • The people of Auckland would not give up their privileges of local government without a struggle. Another election was coming on, and the voice of the people at the hustings would be stronger thaa the opinion of the House as at present constituted. At the next election it would be found men would be returned who would reverse the order of things, and bring about another state of things for the better. ■ Mr. McGLASHAN moved the adjournment of the debate, which was opposed by Mr. Reib and Mr. White, and agreed to. The House adjourned at 12.25 a.m.