PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Monday, August 17. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30 p.m. PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Mr. O’RORKE, before the business of the day was commenced, regretted very much that the Premier was not present, because he wished to refer to the hon. gentleman’s statement the other day that he was not aware that he (Mr. O’Rorke) had sent in his resignation to his Excellency the Governor; and to the hon. gentleman’s statement made in private that he (Mr. O’Rorke) had never given any intimation to the Government of his intention to resign if the resolutions relating to the North Island Provinces were to be proceeded with. He was not going into Cabinet secrets, but it was due to himself and to the House to state distinctly the position of affairs. He saw present three of Iris late colleagues, and it would he for them to say whether his veracity or the veracity of the Premier was correct. The moment the announcement was given that this wanton attack upon the Provinces was to he made, he intimated that he could not bo a member of a Government that made it, and could not be a party to such an attack. The Premier had thought proper to deny that. Would the three lion, gentlemen to whom he had appealed assert to the whole House that he did not distinctly state that he would resign if this measure was pressed on 1 It was as little as was due to himself and to the hon. gentlemen, whom ho did not wish to embarrass, but who he desired to state distinctly whether the truth rested with him or with the Premier. He especially appealed to his hon. friend, the Commissioner of Customs, with whom he had been more familiarly acquainted than with the other members of the Ministry, to say whether what he had stated was true or not. If he thought the House disbelieved him he would leave the House that moment, and never return to it again. He put it to the hon. gentleman as a matter of truth ; he did not think they would refuse to endorse what he had then stated. He repeated he had no desire to. embarrass them ; but he liked to be regarded as a truthful man. (Hear). Mr. VOGEL desired to bo understood that he only disagreed with the hon. gentleman as to the course he had pursued. He was sure the hon. gentleman did not intentionally depart from the ordinary rule ; he was merely responsible for an error of judgment. There could be no question of doubt that when a Minister left a Cabinet, through not agreeing with his colleagues—sometimes in consequence of differences ; because he did not wish to take part in the proposals brought forward, or from a variety of reasons—the custom was that no explanation should be made until the Minister resigned. That member was always allowed the opportunity to make a personal explanation, but it was made from his seat in the House and not from the Ministerial bench. He repeated he did it from his seat in the House; as a rale he abstained from making an attack upon the Government. At the same time the ordinary plan was to merely give the reasons that had induced him to resign. There were a great many instances in point. Lord John Russell, when' in the Aberdeen Ministry, resigned because a resolution of censure was put upon the paper by Mr. Roebuck and he did not care to face it. He resigned out of the Cabinet before the resolution came on, hut he made his explanation from the seat he took in the House. A few months afterwards Lord John Russell again resigned ; this time because a resolution of censure was given notice of by Sir B. Lytton Bulwer, censuring him because, as Minister at Vienna, he did not adopt the same principles and course he had adopted as a Minister. Lord Russell elected to leave the Cabinet, and again he made his explanation from a teat in the House. The same applied to Mr. Walpole, when he resigned out of Lord Derby’s Government in 1855, and the same course was adopted in 1867 when Lord Cranborne went out of the Ministry. The latter abstained from making a speech on the occasion. There could be no doubt that the hon. gentleman (the member for Onehunga) had adopted an unusual course. His (the Premier’s) face and the faces of his colleagues could not have shown more entirely the utter astonishment they felt at the anouncement the hon. gentleman was making. He (Mr. Vogel) was not often surprised ; but he confessed he was thoroughly surprised on that occasion. He had permission to state that in the Cabinet the hon. gentleman opposed the proposal, as members of a Ministry sometimes did in Cabinet, and a resolution was taken in Cabinet in favor of proceeding with the resolutions. But if it was to be held that a mere intimation in Cabinet of that kind amounted to a resignation, it would be very difficult to carry on the Government. He did not understand that the hon. gentleman was going to resign ; nor did any of his colleagues understand that he meant to do so. As a matter of courtesy specific intimation should have been given to him (the Premier )that he meant to resign. A great many members of the House were aware of what the hon. gentleman intended —a notice of it appeared in the papers that evening—which showed that whilst the hon. gentleman had not communicated his intention to. his colleagues he must have been in communication on the subject with those in opposition. The question was one of loyalty to his colleagues. He did not say this in an unfriendly manner, because he admitted the lion, gentleman acted according to what he considered to ho right. He hoped it would not be considered he had the slightest feeling against the hon. gentleman ; he had always had pleasure in working with him, and very much regretted losing him from the Cabinet. It was the manner of his resignation which called forth from him (Mr. Vogel) an expression of unfeigned surprise. He hoped the thing would be forgotten, and the credit ho deserved given to the lion, gentleman for acting up to his principles, and retiring from the Cabinet with which ho was no longer able to agree. He pointed out to the hon. gentleman that in the cases he had instanced the members of tho Ministry had not only had the announcement of their resignation come from the head of the Government, but the head of the Government was consulted as to what would be the most convenient time to make that announcement—the retiring members’finished their unfinished papers and acted to the last in a friendly spirit. He was willing to consider the hon. gentleman’s action a mistake, hut he hoped if he should happen to be again placed in a similarly unhappy position he would adopt another course. He hoped he (Mr. Vogel) had not been considered to have said anything of a personal nature, or that their private friendships would in any way bo disturbed. Mr. REYNOLDS, having been appealed to, thought it right to state that after the Cabinet meeting referred to he and Mr. O’Rorke loft the Cabinet together, and had some conversation on the subject, in the course of which he (Mr. O’Rorke) said he could never agree to such a resolution. But up to the time the hon. gentleman announced his resignation from the Ministerial table, ho (Mr. Reynolds) was not aware he intended to retire, and no further intimation was given. He knew the hon. gentleman was very dissatisfied, and thought, it probable he would intimate to the Government Ids resignation, but ho felt perfectly sure in his own mind that no such intimation had been given when the Premier got up. Sir D. McLEAN .remarked that although Mr. O’Korke had expressed his repugnance to the resolutions, he had never heard him say he intended to resign. It would have naturally been expected that the hon. gentleman would have expressed his intention to resign from some bench other than the Ministerial one. On reflection he must consider he had adopted a most unusual course, coming from one with a very large knowledge of Parliamentary practice, and who had been Chairman of Committees, Ho (Sir D. McLean) certainly thought tho hon. gentleman would have been the last to have made such a statement from tho Ministerial bench. Mr. RICHARDSON corroborated what had fallen from his colleagues. So far as ho could recollect, when tho question was put in Cabinet, Mr. O’Rorke replied, Mr. Vogel caiiuot expect mo to acquiesce in that.” No-
thing was said to lead him (Mr. Richardson) to suppose in the slightest Mr. O’Rorke intended to resign until he got up in his place and intimated so. Mr. O’RORKE : The only favor I desire from the Government is' that they will admit that I did give notice that if this matter was pressed I could no longer be a member of the Ministry. My friends the Native Minister, the Minister for Public Works, and the Commissioner of Customs have said so, but in my absence I believe the Premier said distinctly that I did not give that intimation. The subject then dropped. NEW MEMBER. Mr. Montgomery took the oaths and his seat. THE ABOLITION OF NORTH ISLAND PROVINCES. Mr. REEVES, in resuming the adjourned debate upon the resolutions tabled by the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, observed that he thought it desirable that he should say a few words in explanation of the position he was now taking, more especially as he had been alluded to prominently by an hon. member in the House. He wished it to be understood that he stood there in no capacity, or to any extent in the capacity of either a leader of, or being connected with, any party whatever. (Hear.) He did not mislead the House, hut wished to deal frankly both with it and the importance of the occasion. It was true that he was requested by an hon. gentleman who represents a very large and important section of the House to propose the amendment to the resolutions which he would shortly have the honor to propose. He believed he was asked to do that, partly it was known that for a very long period he had been a very steady supporter of the present Government, but more so because it was perfectly well known by all who were acquainted with his views on the subject of Provincial institutions that he continued to hold moderate and consistent views upon the subject. In the first session that he had the honor of sitting in the House, in 1867, there was a debate, and a very lengthy one, on the question of constitutional changes. He then stated his opinion on the subject of Provincial institutions, and he had seen no reason to alter that opinion up to the present time. He would briefly state what that opinion was. He considered that unless the greatly peculiar character and conditions of the Colony changed; that until the population is larger and more settled throughout the different parts of the Colony, these institutions of local government and administration of representative local government—were absolutely necessary, and considered the present form of Government was the best that could he, and better probably than anything that, could be substituted. He repeated, those were bis views then ; and they remained so now. He had seen no reason to alter them. It was mainly for this reason that he was invited to propose the amendment entrusted to his care. The hou. member for Parnell bad twitted him (Mr. Reeeves) the other evening, with being impressed by a desire and an ambition to occupy the seat filled by the hon. member at the head of the Government. He trusted he had a juster sense of his abilities—of their modest character —than to be actuated by any such ambition. He had come forward now, not from any party feeling, or as repi’esenting any party, but simply to move a resolution which he thought it desirable for the interests of the Colony that the House should support. It would ill become the House to conceal from themselves, or from the country, the importance of the subject they had now to _ discuss. The resolutions under discussion involved nothing short of a thorough revolutionary change in the Constitution of the Colony—a change in the modes of local government, and a change in the administration of a very important part of its revenues. It was—(a long pause, and cries of “chair”) —very important for them to consider the way in which this measure ’—a measure of such great importance—had been proposed by the Government; and whether it had received at their hands that calm, long, and anxious consideration which such a great question deserved. It did not appear to him that the measure had received the consideration due to it ; or that the public—the people of the Colony—or the Legislature had been maeje aware of the intentions of the Government in this respect —(hear) ; oh the contrary, they had been told to believe by the statements of the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government both throughout the country during the time he was visiting the several Provinces, and when he met the House, that he had no intention whatever of introducing any large measures of Provincial reform, or of interfering with the existing system of local representative Government. (Hear). _ What conclusions were they to draw from this state of affairs ; either that the hou. gentleman had no intention of effecting those changes, or that he concealed his intentions, and so misled the country, or he had brought in this measure of the gravest importance, involving a radical change in the Constitution of the Colony without due thought, and on the spur of the moment. He refused to believe for an instant that the hon. gentleman was actuated by any duplicity towards the House and towards the public in this matter. Unfortunately in the statement made by the hon. gentleman in bringing forward his reasons for introducing the’measure and sketching the plan of the proposed change of government, he had given the key to what were really his views or his reasons, and given them to understand what was the necessity for this sudden action on his part. He had told the House that it was due to the action of certain members with regard to the debate that took place on the State Forests Bill that his mind was drawn towards this question. It was clear to him that' this great contemplated change had been brought in on the spur of the moment, and from feelings of irritation—(Mr. Reid : Hear.) —produced by the action of certain members on the Forests Bill. It was a most unfortunate thing that the country should be made aware that great constitutional changes might he duo to the passing humors of the hou. gentleman at the head of the Government. It was a most lame, impotent, and shameful conclusion that it should be made known to the world that such measures might be introduced in a fit of temper, and that thej 7 were to have no greater security for their public privileges than dependance upon the passing humors of the hon. gentleman. It was clear that this measure had not only been introduced until haste, under feelings of irritation, and without due consideration, hut had also been introduced at a most inopportune period. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman must greatly underrate the effect that would be produced by this measure, and the speech with which he introduced it, if he imagined that it would he received throughout the country, and especially in the Middle Island, with feelings of even silent acquiescence, much less of satisfaction. He believed that it would be at once perceived by the people of the Middle Island that tho true meaning of this measure was the abolition of Provincialism, and the passing over of the laud revenue of tho Provinces —(Mr. Macandrew ; Hear.) —to the, Colony. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman shook his head ; he had said again and again in his speech that he had no intention of applying this measure to the Provinces of the Middle Island, and that lie was quite ready to bring in a special Act confirming those Provinces in the possession of their landed revenues. But he could tell the Premier that the people of the Middle Island would not believe for a single hour his protestations, because they would at once recognise that their possession of their privileges would not be one whit more safe than were those .of the Northern Provinces at tho present time—(hear), —for they would know perfectly well that as soon as this measure- —that so soon as the Northern Provinces were abolished —they would turn round to 'execute tho some process upon their Southern neighbors. For example, they saw now an instance in the provinces of Southland and Otago. It was well-known to hon. members that the Province of Southland would gladly at tho present moment extinguish the Province of Otago. (Laughter, and cries of “No.”) Ho appealed to the hon. member for Invercargill to say whether that was right or not. Ho was perfectly satisfied from a long and intimate knowledge of tho working of Provincial Institutions in tho Middle
Island that the people of these Provinces were never better satisfied than they were at present with their existing institutions, and when they recognised what the tine meaning of this measure was, that they would at once resent and resist it. (Cries of “ No” and “Hear.”) They would, he said, resist and resent it. He was perfectly satisfied that this measure would sooner or later breed discord and political trouble from one end of the island and Colony to the other. Just at a time when we required perfect peace and repose, so that the people of the Colony might pursue their avocations in peace, and that the thousands now being poured on to our shores might settle down quietly to their occupations—just at a time when, if there was one wish stronger than another on the part of the public, it was that the hon. gentleman and his colleagues should settle down to their work- and attend closely to the details of the policy which they have inaugurated, and which involved the expenditure of many millions—just at a time when, above all things, unity in the Colony was required, in order that its credit might stand high with the outer world, —the hon. gentleman proposed to bring down a measure that would involve this Colony in very serious trouble and discord. (Hear.) Not only was this measure introduced iu baste, and under feelings of irritation, and without due preparation, but it was proposed at a most inopportune period, and without, in his opinion, the slightest demand on the part of the public for such a measure. (Hear). A maxim that has been accepted throughout the world was that it was no part of any Government to institute experimental measures of reform if they were not called for by the people. That maxim rested upon intelligible grounds. The hon. gentleman had told them how long his mind had been exercised with the notion that some great measure of reform in administering the Government of the Colony was needed ; and he had told them how his active intellect had been exercised at one time in the direction of separation, and at another time in the direction of consolidating the various Provinces ; but he did not tell them that in spite of his best endeavors to carry out those various changes at various times the thoroughly conservative feeling of the Colony had prevented him from carrying his eccentricities into execution ; and that the Constitution remains at present exactly as it stood before he conceived his ideas. What reason had he given, or what could he show, for supposing that his proposition would not meet with the same fate ? For his part he thought it was totally uncalled for by public opinion, and altogether unneeded. He had himself had some long experience of the working of Provincial institutions in his part of the island, and he said he could remember no time during the history of nearly twenty years, when its institutions were so successfully worked, and with such perfect apparent satisfaction to the great mass of the people. The two great Provinces of Otago and Canterbury were at the' present time as well governed as they possibly could be, and the people as well satisfied, with some few exceptions, as it was possible to conceive any people could be with their institutions. Nor was it difficult to discover the cause; for the people enjoyed very wise and vigorous administration. The House was hound to take the expression of the people in regard to Provincial institutions in the Middle Island, for it must be remembered that those two Provinces reprerented at least three-fifths of the population of the whole Island, and he had reason to believe that the people were perfectly satisfied with Provincial institutions. In the Province of Nelson, the hon. member who administered the Provincial Government there was also satisfied, and though he certainly had not had the same opportunities of showing his efficiency as had been enjoyed by the Superintendents of Otago and Canterbury, he.(Mr. Beeves) had no reason to suppose that his Government was not appreciated, or that the people of Nelson were not perfectly satisfied with their institutions. He knew nothing about the Province of Marl-, borough ; of Westland, the youngest and latest Province, he could hardly imagine, when he recollected the eagerness among its representatives in the House to obtain the privileges of Pi'ovincial institutions, that they were already tired of them, dr that it was proposed to give them up at the Premier’s bidding. It might be said, no doubt, that this measure did not propose to affect the Provinces of the Middle Island, therefore any argument bearing on the state of feeling in the Middle Island was not pertinent to the question, hut he thought he had shown that if the resolutions were carried into effect, and the hon. gentleman acted upon them, the time must inevitably come, and very shortly, when the Provinces of the Middle Island would see their land fund taken over by the hon, gentleman or his successors on the Treasury bench, whoever they might be. Then, if they turned to the North Island, what did they find ? What evidence was there of any wish on the part of the people that their- institutions should be suddenly changed, or that their privileges should be taken away, or that their form of government should be totally altered. • If they took the representatives of the Province of Wellington as a reflex of the opinion of the people, then he thought they would find the feeling was not in favor of the abolition of Provincial institutions. Nor did he think if they went outside that, though they might find some difference of opinion, they would find other than that the balance of public opinion was in favor of the Provinces. The people of the Province were perfectly satisfied that their local affairs were administered with ability and vigor, and all they desired was, that those who administered their affairs should have fair opportunity of being able to exercise them. (Cries of “No, ’ and “ Hear.”) About public feeling in Taranaki, he did not profess to know anything, and therefore he chose to say nothing about the feeling on this question of their representatives iu the House; but he hardly thought these gentlemen could be taken as affording a fair reflex of opinion upon the question. (Laughter.) He might say much the same of the Hawke’s Bay Province, Then what about the Province of Auckland ? Hid the people desire to be deprived of their local institutions and be reduced to the dull level of having their affairs administered by a central government. Probably the member for Parnell would say Yes ; and there might be of the same opinion one or two members representing the comparatively distant but barren valleys of the Waikato. (Laughter.) But hon. members who represented the really populous districts of that Province would, he thought, say No. (“ Hear,” aud expressions of dissent.) Going outside the opinions of members as reflecting those of the public, he thought on such an occasion they might take the Press, aud if, they found journals of totally opposite opinions, and taking totally opposite_ views, uniting in condemning these resolutions, he thought they must admit that there was some force iu such action. He maintained that the Government was bringing on these resolutions without any call on the part of the public, and in doing so they were acting most unwisely. But he might o-o further, aud say that though this Parliament might possibly have the legal and technical right to settle this question it had no moral right whatever to deal with it. (Hear.) It was well known that the House was elected solely on the question of the policy of public works and immigration (hear), and certainly no great question of constitutional reform ever formed any part in the public discussions that took place. That being the case, he thought the constituencies would consider —and fairly consider—that this Parliament had no right, at the sudden call of the Premier, to determine, or pledge itself to determine, to alter the entire Constitution of the country without any direct consultation with the constituencies on the subject. This would, he believed, be the general impression of the constituencies when they became better acquainted with the details and . scope of the measure. He asked the House to consider what would be the practical results if the resolutions were passed and the Middle Island were exempted from their action. They would have another anomaly, another contradiction added to our already most anomalous and contradictory Constitution. (Hear.) They would meet together in Wellington to legislate and to arrange the finances of two parts of the Colony governed upon totally different principles. The hon. gentleman in his conclusions, his figures, and his theoretical distribution of
revenues of the North Island under his new arrangements, would lead the House to suppose that because the form of Government of theColony was changed, the local institutions of the Provinces would be able to be supported to a larger extent, apparently out of their local revenues. He did not look for any such results. He believed exactly as we bad to fiud the money now, we should have to fiud the money then. (Hear.) They would meet together with one part of the Colony with its Provincial institutions, its local taxation, aud its local revenues, local institutions such as harbors, gaols, asylums, and so forth, that would be supported out of their own revenues,, while another half of the Colony would be supported out of Colonial revenues, revenues; raised out of the taxation of both parts of the Colony, or by loans upon the credit of the united Colony. He believed that such a system’ was totally incapable of either being arranged or kept up ; and he believed the distinct consequence of attempting it would be financial, if not legislative separation. Another consideration was, whether at the present time it might be extremely desirable to create iu the Colony any divisions of the kind proposed by the measure, or whether it ought not to be proceeded with. He was satisfied that the Colony and the Assembly would infinitely rather prefer to fiud the money as it had done already, and was doing now, to support those, institutions in the mere impecunious Provinces in this Island, rather than see sweeping changes of reform of this nature earned out. He thought the Colony would rather meet those charges—rather give this assistance, waiting until such time as the land funds which they have or which they were endowing them with, enabled those Provinces to carry out aud support their local institutions with as much vigor as those of the South Island were now carried out. He believed this plan would be far more advantageous than the one introduced iu the hon. gentleman’s speech. The most remarkable part of that speech was, he thought, the celerity with which it appeared to; have been composed and introduced. It was not every country that could boast of the possession of a statesman who, at a few weeks’ notice, was prepared to alter the constitution of the country (hear), and took only fifteen minutes’ adjournment of the House to sketch the reasons for which it was done, and the plans on which it was to be carried out. History told them of a French ahbc who could create new constitutions for his country every week. The hon. member for Bruce last year showed a happy knack for creating new institutions; but both these hon. gentlemen sank into absolute insignificance when compared with the hon. gentleman who, in two or three days, completed a plan for reforming the Constitution of the country, and in fifteen minutes sketched out that plan. As might be supposed with a speech ■ prepared until such haste, there was not much backbone to be found on its dissection. It did not require any great ability to criticise it. They were told that the Provinces were very impecunious, and that was given as a reason why they should be abolished. The hon. gentleman also said they were very troublesome, and it was a great trouble to arrange their finances.. The hon. gentleman would find quite as much, trouble to manage the finances of the Island without the Provinces as with them. Then they were favored with a large amount of figures, for the purpose apparently of proving what they all knew very well before, that the Colony had been spending during the last year or two, a large amount of borrowed money in this Island, and that that large expenditure compared very unfavorably, as the hon. gentleman pointed out, -with the local and land revenues of the Provinces. And for that reason the House was invited to abolish the Province and hand the land revenue over to the Colony. It appeared to him that that was a most inconclusive aud flimsy argument, one moreover that could easily cut the other way. It must he perfectly evident, that in a very few years—indeed, in a very short time—the expenditure of this borrowed money would cease. Thepermanent charges would he met with very 'great difficulty, the capitation allowance to the Provinces would cease, and the Colony have nothing iu the shape of capitation or other grants to divide amongst the Provinces. At the same time it would he extremely probable that owing to the prosecution of public works and the completion of railways, the (landed estate of the Provinces would become of far greater value, and yield much larger revenues. Acting upon the same principles that appeared to have guided the Premier in his reasoning ; the hon. member for the Hutt might very well come down to the House and say that the Government would mot contribute to its wants, it could not pay its way,, had got no revenue compared -with Vhat it. had done, therefore, it was necessary it should be abolished. The reasoning- would be perfectly analagous, aud equally conclusive. There was another charge of a graver character against the Provinces, which required a little more explanation. The House had been told that the action of the Provinces interfered until the prosecution of public works, aud added largely to the difficulties of managing the Natives of the North Island. He had hacl some slight acquaintance with the Department of Public Works, at a time too when nothing was organised, and when its management was surrounded with very great difficulties, but he did not remember at any time that the prosecution of public works was impeded by the' action of the Superintendents or ProvincialGovernments ; on the contrary, he always found those gentlemen very anxious, as might naturally be supposed, because it. was their interest to do so, to help the prosecution of those works. It was true they were exacting on some points ; and especially so was the member for Port Chalmers, but be did not think that hon gentleman always got his own way, and certainly he (Mr. Reeves) had nothing to complain of in the direction of obstructing the public works of the Colony. All the Premier brought forward aud adduced in favor of this charge was that in some remote part of one of the Provinces, the Province declined to take over and maintain a road made by the General Government. It was quite possible that the road was not worth taking over ; and it is just possible it was not made. He trusted the Minister for Public Works, when he spoke on this subject, as no doubt he would, would take, the trouble to state in what particular, and how far the action of the Superintendents and! Provincial Executives in this Island had interfered with the construction of public works.. The same with regard to Native affairs. The hon. gentleman at the head of the Government •said the action of the Superintendents seriously interfered with the management of Native affairs. He had not heard anything of the kind from the lips of the Native Minister ; on the contrary, he had repeatedly heard him express his grateful thanks for the assistance the Provincial authorities had afforded him in times of great difficulty when the Colony had been in danger. It was a matter of history that the Superintendents in this Island had repeatedly come forward when the Colony had been in actual danger, and bad assisted largely the action of the Native Minister in the prosecution of his work. (Sir D. McLean : Hear.) It came badly from the Premier —it smacked of ingratitude—to turn round now and to say that the action of these gentlemen, who, in his (Mr. Beeves’) opinion had always devoted themselves most zealously to assist the Government of the Colony, and the Native Minister in protecting its interests in times of danger—that he should make this the occasion of quarrel, by saying that their action impeded the management of Native affairs. Unless the Minister for Public Works and the Native Minister could substantiate these charges, the House could only come to the conclusion that the fable of the wolf and the lamb was being repeated, and this was being made the occasion of a quarrel. He could not compliment the Premier on the good taste he had displayed in his treatment of the Superintendents of this Island. The gentlemen who were elected by the whole people, the hon. gentleman threw out of office, locked the door upon them, and charitably aided them-—one for the remainder of his life ; the others for the rest of their terms of office. He (Mr. Reeves) never heard so humiliating a proposal. (Hear.) But it was against the proposed form of government that he would make his most earnest protest, What did the hon. gentleman propose
to take the place of those gentlemen who had given np their whole time so zealously to the work of the Provinces ? What was proposed in the place of the Executives and Councils which met together with so much advantage and regularity, and with so much earnestness and desire, to carry on the various works of the Provinces? It was an exact reproduction of the French system of government by Departments. He could hardly conceive any proposal more entirely unsuitable to a population with the education and instincts our race, more especially to the people of this Colony, who had been bred up from the commencement to understand the benefits and appreciate the value of local responsible government. Thev were to have Government agents — nominees of the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, who would he in close and confidential communication with him, and by whom the complaints and wants of the people were to be forwarded to the Central Government Department. Ho must apologise, he almost forgot there was to ho a general form of local government modelled after the Timaru and Gladstone Road Board. He took leave to think the lion, gentleman had very little knowledge of the Timaru and Gladstone Bead Board, or he would not have proposed that as his model. It was a cheap and nasty form of local government he proposed ; and he (Hr. Reeves) thought the proposition too ridiculous to he considered. He was sure it would end in total and most disastrous failure if attempted. The other parts of the resolutions really recpiired very little notice at his hands. The proposal to confirm the seat of Government in tins Imperial City was wise enough in its way, hut there was hardly any necessity for it, because it was long ago accepted as an accomplished fact on the part of the Colony, nor did he think there was much need of an Act to confirm the Provinces of the Middle Island in the possession of their land. (Hear.) If the hon. gentleman carried the resolutions and put them into effect it would not be long before lie laid his hands on the land funds of the Middle Island. If he did not carry Ins resolutions, or having earned them, was wise enough not to act upon them, then no Act was required. He for one placed no particular faith in any particular Act when he found that the hon. gentleman’s political principles were changed as often as the winds, and that the Act of one day confirming a solemn promise was repealed the day afterwards. The Middle Island required no confirmation of its strong possession, and stronger — what he termed Divine right—of a wise, just, and beneficent Administration. So long as it had that it could oppose a harrier to the hon. gentleman’s ambition and greed that he would find quite unsurpassable simply because founded on justice. He had endeavored to show—he was afraid he had failed very materially in his endeavor, from want of that confidence, and that habit of speaking which were essential—what he believed to he true, that these resolutions were mischievous and dangerous to the Colony. He had endeavored to show that they had been introduced with haste, and under feelings of irritation, although they struck at the root of our Constitution. He had endeavored to show that they had been introduced at a very inopportune time, because he believed when their effect is known it will sooner or later produce very considerable political discord and disunion throughout the Colony. He considered, he had tried to show it was inopportune to raise this question when it was desirable that the settlement of the country should proceed expeditiously, and the Government have peace and leisure to carry out the details of the policy which was still only in its initial stages, and still a great experiment, which required very large sums of money to meet. He had endeavored to show that these proposals had not been called for in any part of the Colony by the voice of the people, and therefore it was inexpedient to deal with them. He had endeavored to show—and in this he believed he had succeeded—that this Parliament had no moral right to deal with this question, having been elected for a totally different purpose, without any intimation that large constitutional changes were likely to he carried out, and he had tried to show that one of the effects of the resolutions must be to involve the Colony in financial, if not legislative confusion. And he thought he had conclusively shown that the very crude plan the Premier had brought down was totally unfitted to" carrying out any satisfactory system of Government, even if the changes took place. Holding these opinions firmly and strongly, although he had imperfectly expressed them, it naturally followed that heshould desire to dispose of the resolutions by proposing as an amendment the previous question, which he trusted might be earned, and so consign the measure to the obscurity from which he thought it should never have emerged. (Applause.) Major ATKINSON said the Premier had been greatly blamed by the last speaker for proposing that the House should consider the subject of abolishing Provincialism in the North Island, and after due consideration, if his views were approved, support a measure on the subject. In the same breath they were told that three of the Provinces were already extinguished so far as representation in the House was concerned. Nothing could exceed the contempt with which the smaller Provinces of the North Island had been treated by the hon. member for Selwyn, for the purpose of casting all the more glory upon the larger Provinces of the South Island, which were strong and powerful only because of their land revenues. It was that fund alone that had put them into the position in which they were, and which kept tfiem in it. The hon. member who had last spoken said the gentlemen who sat for Taranaki in that House did not represent the feelings of the people of that Province, though he remarked that he would not inquire what the feelings of the people of that Province were. He could only say that the next election would show whether the gentleman who now sat in that House from the Province of Taranaki represented the people or no. His own opinion was that the hon. member for Selwyn (Mr. Keeves), who had only been elected by a majority of one, could scarcely be said to represent the feelings of the people by whom he had been elected. (Laughter.) An election would show whether the views he held, or those of the hon. member for Selwyn, were those held by the electors. This Parliament, he held, was quite competent to deal with any question that might come before it. For himself, as long as he was a member he would vote according to his conscience on any matter brought before the House. The resolution proposed by the Government he believed to be a wise one. The House was not asked to adopt any definite scheme, hut to consider the subject. The Government did not ask them to commit themselves to anything more than the abolition of Provincialism in the North Island, leaving it for Parliament in next session to consider what form of Government should succeed it. He would remind them of what the hon. member for the Hutt had said of Provincialism, in connection with the Province of Auckland, in 1865, when lie was at the head of the Government. His opinion was not then in favor of government by Provinces. The question was not one merely of the day. It was one of how true local government was to he obtained, and that the Provincial system did not give them. The hon. member for Selwyn had said that the Premier took only ten or fifteen minutes to make up his scheme for the future government of the Colony, hut when the hon. member for Selwyn spoke of a scheme, he would like to ask where was the Bill which embodied a scheme ? There was no scheme. All that was asked by the Government was an opinion from a majority of the House, and from the country, that Provincialism should cease. The opposition meant that the gentlemen from the South are of opinion that Provincialism there is doomed, if a system of local government is established in the North. Provincialism never had given local Government to the country ; and in what state did they find the Northern Provinces now ? At Taranaki they were in a begging state. If he did not represent Taranaki, ho must at least pretend to do so. . Mr. REEVES remarked that he had never said that the members for Taranaki did not represent the feelings of that Province. Ho said he had declined to take those hon. members as representing the opinions of the inhabitants on Provincial institutions.
Major ATKINSON said he had been a settler there for twenty years ; he intended to live and hoped to die there. The hon. member might know more about public feeling, and have much greater ability, than he (Major Atkinson) had, but still he would, express his opinion on this question. His views upon it were not views taken up yesterday, hut those which he had held for many years. The Colony had given the Province land, and they expected shortly to be able to avail themselves of it, hut their present revenue was only about £SOOO, and it would he apparent to hon. members that with such a sum it was impossible to carry out these public works, and place the people on the lands, as the Colony expected them to do. It was literally impossible that they could do the work they were expected to do, and they must come to the House and to the Government for assistance ; and who could blame them for doing so ? The old task of making bricks without straw was a hard one, hut they were asked to make bricks not only without straw but without clay, and he said the House had no right to put them in that position. The House or the Government must give them more money or do the work themselves. When the policy of Public Works was introduced, he saw at once that it was the beginning of the end of Provincial distinctions, as it took away the reasons for their existence. What was there left for the Provinces to do ? Take away those great works, and what was there left for the local Councils to do? That was the position of Taranaki. The Provinces, it was true, had a power of obstruction in the 'House, but Taranaki never used it. It was charged against them that they did not do so, and would support the Government now because they got all they wanted. (Laughter.) But if a Bill such as that indicated were carried, they would come there as representatives of New Zealand and not of a small Province. Speaking of the Province of Auckland, in 1861, the hon. member for the Hutt, who was not then a Provincialist, had spoken of that Province as being like the little hoy who sucked the orange and threw away the skin. If Auckland, he said, would not tax itself for public works, then should have no public works, and had no right to exist as a Province. Hawke’s Bay was in a little better position. It could carry on its own government with its own revenue. But, as it was represented by its two members, it approved of a General Government rather than a Provincial one. As to Wellington, the hon. member for the Hutt said that unfortunate Province was “ sat upon,” and that justice was not done to it. But justice in this case appeared to* mean that the Colonial Government was to find the money and the Province was to spend it. (Hear, hear.) All who had to do with Provincial Government knew how difficult it was to collect the local rates,* such as those for education, road works, &c. If the several Provincial Governments were abolished their affairs could be as w*ell managed by the General Government as those of the Departments _ were_ in France. The supporters of Provincialism merely desired that the country should be taxed that they might he supported in office. It was open to any Province during the recess to levy sufficient taxes to maintain its own Government in a proper state. Let them propose to levy a sufficient revenue to carry on the settlement of population in the country, and then they would see what the people would say to it. If they did so, as they said they would do next year, he was sure the Government would at once withdraw their measure. _ Nobody believed for a moment that the Provinces would do any such thing. There was only one of two things for them, they must either obtain large sums from the Consolidated Fund or resort to borrowing. In a year or two the whole Consolidated Revenue would be required for the interest on the public loans, and then assistance from that fund would be out of the question. If they were to have further grants it meant more taxation. He need not go into the question of loans, because, in another place, it had been determined that there should be no more Provincial loans. To rely upon borrowing, therefore, would be to rely upon a broken reed. Some change was absolutely necessary, if government in the Provinces was to be carried on. He would not discuss the details of the scheme now, though he would be ready to do so when a Bill was by the Government. He did not like the idea of resident agents, and thought the Government would be able to do all that was required. Whatever form of local government was arranged, it should be supervised by the Government, and not by local agents. The hon. member for Selwyn said that he thought the Premier had proposed his resolutions in a fit of'temper. The whole Colony, however, had been considering the subject for years, and he saw no reason why it should not be asked to do so again during the recess. The hon. member had also said that he had been delighted to hear that Southland was desirous that Otago should be abolished altogether, as if not a strong argument in favor of the abolition of Provinces altogether. Southland had been separated from Otago, and did not prosper. Then it was re-united, and now it said the system would not do at all. His hon. friend asked, why do this thing when the country desired to he at peace ? The resolutions were proposed because Ministers say they cannot get rest, and are not left in peace to attend to the financial affairs of the Colony. If that is so, the argument of the hon. member falls to the ground. They say “We cannot get on satisfactorily with the management of the affairs of the North Island under present circumstances, because we are harrassed by the affairs and demands of the Provinces.” If the Premier says he is at peace then we can go on comfortably, but the Premier takes ano'ther view of his situation. He (Major Atkinson) had always been in favor of strong local Government, but now there was no chance for it while Provincial institutions existed. The Provinces, he believed, had done good service in their day, hut the time had arrived when they should be abolished. after this session he would explain the situation clearly to his constituency, and certainly he should not he there next session to support the measure the Premier would he in a position to propose unless his constituents approved of Ins conduct. The power of the Provinces in the House to destroy was very great, was on the increase, and ought to he diminished. (Applause). Mr. CURTIS said he would support a good system of local Government, but it had not been shown in the resolutions before the House that there was such a measure embraced in them. The resolutions only said that Provincialism should be abolished in the North Island. In his speech Mr. Vogel said the General Government had all the trouble and responsibility of the management of the finances of the North Island, and he asked that for that reason they should have all the power as well. He proposed to carry on the Government of the North Island by local agents. He had shadowed forth something in the nature of a substitute for local Government, by reference to the Timaru and Gladstone Road Board, but he had not told them anything of the constitution of that Board, and had put before them nothing of a definite character—only that the conduct of the whole of tho affairs of the North Island should he carried on by the General Government through their own agents. It _ was not necessary to enter into the motives that had animated the Government in submitting these resolutions. The Premier had said that his action had been precipitated by tho course some hon. members had taken in connection with the State Forests Bill, He was not satisfied that that was a good reason. Ho based his proposal on the fact that there had been a largo expenditure from Colonial funds in the North Island. He stated that within a limited period £3,400,000 had been expended in the North Island on public works from Colonial funds ; but ho did not show that that expenditure was excessive or unnecessary, nor what portion of that expenditure was attributable to tho existence of Provincial Governments. The greater part of the numerous roads in the North Island had been made at tho instance of the hon. the Premier himself or of the Native Minister, on the grounds that those works would open up the country and solve the Native difficulty. The Provincials Governments had little or nothing to do with that expenditure—no'more, indeed, than tho
Provinces in the South Island had to do with it. There was no ground, therefore, on that score for the action of the Premier. What encouragement had the hon. member given the members fox* the North Island to join in this attempt to diminish the expenditure on pxxhlic works in the North Island, when the hon. xnember went on to say that if the resolutions were carx-ied, the North Island would soon find itself in possession of a sufficient revenue of its own for all its own purposes. He did not know how that was to be brought about, or how the Premier was going to make one pound go as fax* as two had gone hitherto. He had not shown how the revenue of the North Island was to be increased, or how its income was to he made to go fxxrther than it did at present. He differed from the Premier in thinking that tho expenditure coxxld he diminished ; and could not see how it was possible, if the General Government had the control of the finances of the North Island, its revenue coxxld he xuade to go fxxrther than the Provincial Governments made it go. On the contrary, he coxxld see that the Premier would have to ask the Colony the South Island as well—to vote money for the works that were necessary for the North Island. He (Mr. Curtis) had always looked xxpon Provincial institutions as beixxg of a tempoi’ary nature, hut he was not prepared to vote for their abolition till he saw some better plan of government proposed as a suhstitxxte fox- it. In opposing the Govenxmeut Bill of ld6S the hon. member opposite (Mr. Vogel) said it was proposed in that Bill to sap and undex-mine Px-ovincial institutions. Subsequently, he seemed to have changed his opinions. The resolixtioxxs before the House xvex’e not to sap ami undex-mine Px*oviucial institutioxxs, but to destroy them without the slightest effox*t being xxxade to construct a better system in their place. He had no doubt that if the x-esolutions were carried Mr. Vogel’s fertile brain would evolve not one but half-a-dozen schemas ; bxxt he was not prepared to abolish Provincial institxxtions until he saw something of which he could approve to be substituted for them. The fix-st thing to be done, he thought, if a change was necessary, was to destroy the legishxtive powers of Provincial Councils, by the General Assembly passing Acts xvlxiclx should overrilo those of the local Coxxncils. When that was done, the functions of the Provincial Councils would px-aotically cease. When that was done in the Noi*th Island, the Provinces of the South Island would probably be dealt with in a similar maimer. But what success had the Parliament met with in its efforts to legislate on the subject of the Waste Lands of the Crown ? No attempt had been mads to do so for years past, because it had been impossible to frame general land regxxlatious that would suit the cii-cum-stanees of the diffex-ent Provinces, and apply to the whole of the Colony. Again, there was the Education question, one of the most important—perhaps the moat important—that Provinces had to deal with. So many difficulties had been encountered when a General Education Bill was proposed a few years ago, that it was withdrawn. Then there were the Road Boards. He was not aware that any successful efforts had been made to deal with tliat subject, excepting perhaps in the Highway Boards Regulation Act. Tho licensing system was another matter in which the General Government had failed in legislating. It xvas found impossible to fi*ame any series of regulations which would be applicable to the xvhole of the Colony. Till the House had succeeded in legislating for matters which interested the whole of the Colony—till then, he thought, they should leave the Px-ovincial Councils alone. It was possible that Provincial institutions might have accomplished more than they had done. A vex*y huge amount of Colonial public works, and of settlement promoted by the General Government was going on ; but it was not owing to any failure of Provincial institutions that these had been undertaken by the Government. They were the results of the resources of the Colony, and the energy of the colonists. It could not be said that Provincial institutions stood in the xvay of these works. The Premier of the Colony had shown a wonderfully different way of looking at things from that which he formerly did. Formerly, the Provinces were the people ; noxv, the Colony was the people ; hut, after all, the Colony was only the union of the Provinces. The Provinces had agreed, when the necessity of going on with public works was shown, to unite to obtain public loans for the purpose. The only difference between the Colony and the General Government, in fact, was one of administration, and he doubted much whether the public works of the Colony could be carried out more economically or satisfactorily by the General Government than by the Provincial authorities. When he was told that the Provinces could not get on -with their ordinary revenue, he asked did the Colony do so ? Had it not to borrow ? Could the Provinces not also say we cannot get along without borrowing. He did not see that a distinction could be draxvn between the one and the other. The hon. member for Mount Egmont said his Province was not able to carry on its own public works, or maintain its own Government from its own revenue ; but was not that also the case with the Colonial Government ? The maintenance of gaols, police, asylums, hospitals, &c., were not local but Colonial matters. The Colony already possessed the of a double Government ; but they would certainly not remove that anomaly by creating a Central Government, and nine or ten local governments ; and , one form of government for the North and another for the South Island. The hon. member (Mr. Vogel) always points to existing differences of government as having an injurious effect on the public credit, and when, of all times, they should be at one, they were to aggravate that adverse influence by creating new difficulties of the same kind to depreciate public credit. Then they were called upon to re-open the compact of 1856. It was undesirable to re-open the subject. It was settled long ago. The same with the question of the seat of Government. That also was settled long ago. It would add nothing to the security of the compact of 1856 to he able to write, “ Be it therefore enacted ; ” it would not make Wellington more sure of being the capital than she was noxv because they might be able to read, “ Be it therefore enacted.” The xvhole thing, as he had said, xvas settled long ago ; and he thought that re-opening those questions noxv xvould occasion a huge amount of irritation at the vex*y time xvlxen they xvere proposing to borrow a lai'ge sum. He xvas not certain that the question raised in the resolutions as regarded the North Island, xvould not raise the cry for separation of the txvo Islands. , He believed, xvxth the Premier, that that was a thing that ought not to and coxxld not be carried ; but that would not prevent the cry being raised. Jealous as the members for the South Island were of their land fund, they naturally look beyond tho immediate proposal before the House. As to the North Island, the hon. member said he would look to the land fund to promote settlement ; and the principle once admitted, they would soon have every member of the North Island arguing that an equivalent portion of the land fund of the South Island should also be taken for general pui-poses. And hoxv could such a claim be resisted xvith success ? He would not advert to the present depressed condition of the Provinces of the North Island, which he hoped xvas but of a temporary nature. The time xvas xvhen the North Island xvas more populous than the South Island, and its resources more varied. He did not think the present condition of depression would long continue. The South, too, had had its temporary difficulties. Ho did not think that any change of the constitution of tho Colony would be effected for generations to come. A system of temporary aids to Provinces, not in the shape of public xvoi'ks, but to enable gaol, hospital, and other arrangements to be carried out efficiently, would he better than abolition, and ho xvould he glad to help iu such a course. In a few years even that assistance would not bo necessary. When time had effaced the traces of the miserable wars in which tho people of the Noith Island had been engaged, and xvhen a greater breadth of land was settled upon and under cultivation, the small temporary wants of the North Island xvould ho removed. It was dangerous to base legislation on circumstances of a temporary character. He did not wish to prolong the debate, as no
doubt many members would desire to speak on the resolutions before the House, but this was the most important subject on which the House had been engaged for many years past, and when the proposition was fully known to the country it would receive more attention than any subject had done for years. Some good might come out of the evil^; but if the resolutions were carried, and a Bill founded on them brought in, he could see no immediate good, but only the beginning of a long agitation. If Provincialism were abolished in the North, it must follow in the South in, a year or two. It would be a system of General Government without the semblance of local. Government. He would vote for the previous question. Mr. McGILLIVRAY had not taken up his views of the question as a newly-fangled notion. He had been opposed to Provincialism ever since he had been in the Colony. In 1871, when a question involving the Provincial system was before the House, and again in 1872, he supported the view that these distinctions should be abolished. He took it upon himself to say that the Premier had not submitted the resolution merely as a novelty, because that hon. member had long ago expressed the idea that they were working up to the time when there should be only two Provinces in New Zealand. The idea the Premier had now put forward had long been floating in that hon. member’s mind, and was put into shape owing to circumstances that had lately arisen. He was strongly of opinion that there should only be one Government in the Colony. It appeared, to some, that Provincial institutions were absolutely- necessary, but they saw other Colonies in which these institutions did not exist, and were not asked for. The Provinces should either be strong, or wiped out of existence. He thought the scheme of the Premier was the best that could be proposed. A central Government tended to lessen the expenditure of Government, while the existence of Provincial Governments only tended to continue distinctions that should be abolished. He illustrated the inconveniences of the existing system by the present conflicting state of the land laws, which was altogether exceptional. He was greatly pleased when the Premier spoke of a general land fund for the North Island, in which, he hoped, the South Island would share. He alluded to Victoria as a model in this respect, where the whole lands were dealt with by one Land Board, and local affairs by unsalaried shire officers. Look at the old laud ! The affairs of the extreme north of Scotland, 500 miles away, were as easily managed by a central government as they were in Middlesex itself. The abolition of Provinces, no doubt, was an ungrateful thing to needy politicians, who derived their incomes from it. He had put a question on the paper as to the nature of the Government that should be substituted for the institutions it was proposed to abolish. The Premier had not, so far, satisfied him in that respect, but no doubt the Cabinet would give the whole subject their consideration. They had the varying systems of Victoria, America, and Tasmania, to look to to choose the best. He could not agree with the hon. member for Selwyu, that every other system of Government than Provincialism had failed. He would wish to see Provincialism, not only in the North, but in Otago, and all over the Colony, swept away at once. Mr. THOMSON, with reference to the remarks of Major Atkinson, said he understood that it had not been intended that Taranaki should be a Province, and he thought it would have been a good thing if Taranaki had not been a Province. Its poverty was always dragged before the House. He had seen the Superintendent almost shedding tears over poor Taranaki. (Laughter.) That hon. member said that in a short time they would not be able to borrow more money; and, if so, he thought Provincialism should not be abolished ; for if loans could not be obtained, and the Consolidated Revenue would not serve to carry on the public works; people would all the better submit to local taxation if it were proposed by local bodies, The first question was, whether Provincialism was to continue in the North Island ; the second, that Wellington should be the - capital ; and the third, the compact of 1856. As for the second, the best security Wellington could have was the large expenditure on the public buildings, and the large sum it .was proposed to spend on them. But if these buildings should be destroyed by fire, or by an earthquake, Wellington might rest assured the question would be again brought up. As to the third point, the compact of 1856 had already been dealt with by the Land Revenue Appropriation Act of 1858. These second and third questions were auxiliaries altogether, and put in merely as reasons to vote for the first resolution. So far as he could ascertain, the feeling jn Wellington was strongly in favor of Provincial Government. They thought that Government had done a great deal for the Province, and that there was a great deal to show for the money that had been expended. It was necessary that the feeling of the people should be carried along with such a change. The feeling in Canterbury and Otago was one of apprehension that if the resolutions were carried, their turn would follow. It was to meet this it was proposed to pass an Act to secure to them their land revenue. The motion of the Government, therefore, should be stripped of the support of the second and third propositions. And what then did they find ? That the proposal was accompanied by a threat of dissolution. The hon. gentleman who introduced the measure should have kept that resolution to himself till the motion before the House was disposed of. An hon. member —Why 1 Mr. THOMSON read an opinion from May, to the effect that nothing should be said on any question put before Parliament, of the kind now put before the House, calculated to influence the minds of hon. members in such a manner. The hon. member should have told the house whether ho had received His Excellency's consent to a dissolution. There were few members who had ever been engaged in public life who were willing to leave it. If there was a dissolution, he thought the greater number of the members who sat in the House would be again returned to it; but there probably were a few who might think they would not come back again. These members might, therefore, be biassed by a threat of dissolution, while every matter that came before the House should be considered on its own merits. He admitted that the Provinces of the North Island were not at present in a good financial position, but ho thought much of that was due to the action of the hon. gentleman himself. Pivo years ago, when Mr. Vogel came into office, a good deal of the Customs revenue was regarded as Provincial revenue, but the hon. gentleman himself proposed to abolish it, and give a capitation grant of £2 per head instead, the amount to be gradually decreased. In 1869, when the member for Rangitikei formed his Government, a large portion of the revenue of the Colonial Government was Provincial revenue. In 1870 Mr. Vogel, when he introduced the policy of Public Works, as he had already mentioned to the House, altered that system ; and . afterwards changed the capitation allowance from 40s. to 15s. That was the cause of the ernbarrasments of some of the Provinces. It was predicted then that Provincial embarrasmenta would arise. Hero was Auckland, contributing more to the Colonial revenue tlian any other Province, except Otago, and yet in so poor a condition that she could not carry on government without assistance. Members of Provincial Councils, indeed, now occupy ■ a false position in the House. They had a strong temptation to act against their convictions. They knew the Provinces might suffer if they did not stand well with the Government. This was too great a power to place in the hands of a Government that might be unscrupulous as to the buying of votes. This state of things required a remedy, but he did not think it was to bo found in the proposals of the Government, which would inevitably be followed in the, South Island by the abolition of Provincial Government. The Government seemed to think that all the Provincial institutions, such as, asylums, gaols, &c., would bo much bettor managed by the Colonial Government; they were to make grass grow whore none grow before. They were to make one pound go as ! far as two.
But how was - the money to be got except by borrowing. He would be inclined, as far as Auckland was concerned, to give it for a few years a share of the Customs’ revenue rather than abolish Provincialism. It is tme that what was done in one session might bo undone in the next ; but if they gave the North Island Provinces a share of the Customs’ revenue it would give them some security as to the future, and could not be regarded as a sop. In looking over the speech of the Premier, as now circulated, he must say that if he had got it on Saturday, as promised, he did not think he would have read it, for really it was not worth the paper it was printed on. It said large amounts of money had been spent in the North Island, but was it not money that had been borrowed 2 But the case of the North was not solitary; they were also spending much money in the South Island; and the argument that they should abolish Provincialism, because much Colonial money was required, would apply to the South Island as well as to the North. They were told the Native difficulty was an argument in favor of central government; but he would like to have the opinion of the Native Minister on that point rather than that of the Premier. Provincial boundaries were also said to embarrass the Colonial Government; but he did not see that that was a reason. The hon'. member for the Hutt was a thorn in the flesh of the Premier; but that was not a reason. It was said his system would be much less expensive; but he did not see that that followed. A Government Agent in the North would have to be paid, to discharge duties now performed by the Superintendents, and not so well. The Superintendent had to go up every four years for reelection, and therefore had every reason to do his duty well. The sessions of Parliament would be lengthened, and the legislation accomplished would be much Jess satisfactory. Take Nelson for instance. The Superintendent and Council of Nelson desired to borrow £250,000 forpnblic works, but the Premier could only see his way to £50,000, and then he could only suggest that how .that sum was to be spent should be arranged by the members for Nelson themselves. He, as a member of the House, had some responsibility in those matters, and yet he knew no more than the man in the moon about those local wants. They had Auckland waterworks, Dunedin gasworks, and other local matters often before them, and he often felt puzzled how to give his vote, not knowing anything about them. If the proposal before the House was one which should go before the constituencies he did not see why the Governor should be asked to grant a dissolution when Parliament had only one more year to run. The subject, he thought, should not have been brought up before next session, when the people could have dealt with the question during the elections. This subject should not have been initiated by the Government, but by the House. Even if the Government, however, were justified in going to the country, it should have been on the policy of public works for which the Ministry had been distinguished. Supposing a vote of “no confidence” had been tabled, and supposing the memberwho did so had spoken only about Provincial institutions, he would not have found a teller. The position of the Government was exactly similar. If the Government had said they required the lauds to meet their financial engagements he could have understood it; but the Premier had not done so ; he said he did not want them. The Government laid themselves open to two charges ; of endangering their own policy, and drawing a herring across the track to divert the attention of members from the real question. They desired to take an election on a false issue—not on that of the policy of public works, but on the abolition of Provincialism. Supposing this question should lead to a reconstruction of the Cabinet—of which he thought there was much need, for the Premier received but little assistance from his colleagues—supposing there was a reconstruction, would the country have confidence in it that it would carry out the policy of public works 2 The real questions the Colony had to discuss were in connection with that policy. If they went to the country it was to these things that attention should chiefly be given. Mr. G. B. PARKER asked —as a point of order—if the hon. member was reading his SP The’ SPEAKER said he did not see that the hon. member was reading his speech. Mr. THOMSON would prefer to see a member taking notes than not doing so. He thought the action of the Government was very hasty. Going back only one year, he found the Premier stating that the Government had found the equilibrium—from which he gathered that the Government had found the balance between Provincialism and Federalism. And at the opening of the session, if the hon. member’s opinion had changed, they would have heard of it. They would also have heard of it in the financial speech. It was only after the strong speech of the hon, member for the Hutt a fortnight ago, in opposition to the Forests Bill, that the Premier saw the necessity for his present resolutions. It would be wise on the part of the Premier to allow his temper to cool a little. The holding of a threat of dissolution over the House, he repeated, in conclusion, was entirely unconstitutional. If a promise had been given of that power, His Excellency would be perfectly justified in withdrawing it. He had given notice of an amendment, which really meant the previous question, and did so as a private member, because at that moment they were like sheep without a shepherd. The question being about to be put, Mr. J. L. GILLIES said it appeared to him to be extraordinary that on so important a debate no member should rise on the Government side to answer the arguments of those who wore opposed to them. They had had a majority for years, and they seemed to be disposed to rely upon it now, not having confidence in the righteousness of their cause. He accepted it as a confession of weakness. The Premier had said the question had given the Government great anxiety; but from what had transpired in the House it did not appear as if the subject had received great attention in the Cabinet. The Colony had progressed so greatly'—had grown so rapidly in material prosperity —as to be almost without parallel ; and yet they were called upon in this hasty way to consider a very great change in the Constitution under which that prosperity had been obtained. This was a work which, in place of being a hasty emanation, should have occupied the mind of the Premier for months during the recess. After alluding to the work which members were expected to do, in examining the enormous piles of papers laid before them, in which they were placed at so great a disadvantage compared with the Premier, and alluding to the discussion that had occurred in the debate on the Forests Bill, he asked why had so great a change come over the mind of the Premier, as indicated in the resolutions before the House, after ho had stated that he was prepared to leave to the Superintendents the selection of the Provincial lands required for State Forests. It was idle to say that the North Island only was affected by the resolutions before the House—it was an insult to their common-sense. They were told that the Provinces made so many demands on the General Government that they were unable to meet them. It was surprising that the hon. member who had entire charge of everything for four or five years, having a slavish majority—(Oh, oil)—at his back, should now complain of having too much work to do. The House had not forced those burdens upon him ; he had taken them up willingly. The equilibrium the Premier had found, as he himself expressed it, was to allow Provinces to borrow upon specific securities. He then urged another reason why Provinces should not be abolished, because it all the work of the Colony was forced upon Parliament, the session would be enlarged to ton months. If that would bo the result of abolishing the Provinces how many persons could afford time to give ten mouths in the year to the service of Parliament ? It would simply bo to place the whole legislation of the Colony in tho hands of the capitalists, whose legislation would bo of a selfish character. They were continually told that the Colony had to find mouey for the Provinces. Where did that money come from but from the people? The whole of the revenue of the Colony came from the Provinces. If the amounts paid from tho Con-
solidated Fund to the Provinces had been expended hy the Provinces, they would have had ten times more to show for it. Xt was to be regretted that the simplicity of the original constitution had been departed from—that the real work had not been left to the Provinces, and the General Government had not confined itself to its legislative work. The Colonial Government had not found money from any private purse, but on the security of the people. With the four millions authorised the other evening, the country had borrowed twelve millions in four years, and he asked, in the words of the Premier, “ was this state of things to continue ?” Yet we were only now beginning to get by immigration that influx of population til at had been desired. He (Mr. Gillies) was of opinion that this state of things could not possibly continue. He agreed with what the XTemier said last session—that the stage coach had been overdriven, and it was time to take a rest. If the proposal placed before the House was the result of a rest, he hoped the Premier would in future pursue the even tenor of his way. He denied that the General Government could conduct the affairs of the Provinces more economically and better than the Provincial Governments could. In Otago, during the present year, under the head of roads, they had 2500 miles of roads. Compare that with what tile Government have done. They had 140 bridges, and 43 in construction, 78 miles of railways, railways surveyed 12j) miles, in course of survey 314 miles, preliminary surveys of other railways 202 miles. The total expenditure would be £547,500. In addition to the above there was £42,000 for waterworks (a Colonial work, supervised hy the Provincial engineer.) The department was efficient, and its annual cost was ; supervision £3IOO ; travelling expenses £BSO, total £3950. The Colonial Government had works in the same Province estimated at £106,028, and the cost of the staff was £6897. This year the estimate for the Colonial staff in Otago was not less than £12,000. These figures spoke for themselves, and yet the Colonial Government desired to take upon itseif more of these Provincial works. They had been told that the prosperity of Otago and Canterbury was due to their land revenue. He was ready to give the Colonial Government the whole of that revenue, in exchange for their Consolidated Revejpse. The total of the land revenue of Otago last year was not more than £IBI,OOO. Nor did they dispose of their land in “feverish haste,” though no one was more earnest in another place than the Premier had been in pressing upon them to dispose of their public estate, asserting that he was pertain the time would come when the Colonial Government would seize their land revenue. The sales of land in Otago last year only amounted to £163,000, which did not show that they were disposing of them in “feverish hasteand on those lands they had now a large population settled, contributing largely to the Colonial revenue. In selling those lands they had not been actuated hy any selfish motive, as the more people they placed on the lands the more they increased the cost of education, police, and departmental expenses, which were paid hy the Province. If tlie Provinces had stretched their resources, it was for no selfish end-; and in their efforts they had been greatly crippled hy the action of the Colonial Government. After referring to the views of the Premier when he was a member of the Provincial Council of Otago, he said they were told the Middle Island laud fund would be preserved, and that in the North Island much would he done in the way of education, police, &c., and in the same breath they were told that the hands of the Government were full. He repeated Ms belief that the land fund would not be secured ; and that as in three or four years leases would be falling in, he could not help tMnking that an effort would be made to conserve them in the hands of the present owners, and he could not help thinking also that this had something to do with the present project. If these lands were so conserved it would be most injurious to the Provinces. The Premier had said that the land fund would not be impounded for past or present works, but he had not said they would not he appropriated for' future works. The hon. Premier was sincere in making the promise he had made, but Jt did not affect the real question at issue. He denied that the Provincial authorities of Otago had thrown obstacles in the way of the public works; the Government had been assisted, and would have been assisted still more, if they had taken the Provincial Government more into their confidence. Otago was not in favor of the permanent existence of Provincial Government, hut sought that the people should be gradually educated to tax themselves, as they were now doing. The Premier would do well to revise the position he had taken up, and leave the country rather than the present Parliament to deal with the subject now under discussion. He hoped Ministers would assure the House that if even their resolution were rejected they would not resign. He opposed the motion as revolutionary in its character. At twenty-five minutes past nine o’clock, Mr. MAC ANDREW moved the adjournment of the debate till next day. Sir DONALD McLEAN opposed the motion for adjournment as unnecessarily wasting time. Mr. T. B. GILLIES seconded the motion for adjournment. Mr. O’Conor and Sir J. C. Wilson opposed the motion for adjournment, wMch was negatived without a division. Mr. TAICAMOANA opposed the resolution, because it was proposed to do away with the Superintendents in the North Island and leave those in the South Island. He did so because it was supposed that the Superintendents as well as the Government spoke for the Maories. If the Superintendents in both Islands were to be done away with he would look upon it as a financial matter. It would be better to have two Governments aud two Parliaments —that of the Middle Island to devote itself to making money; and that of the North Island to dispute with the Maoris. (Laughter.) If there was to be only one Parliament the troubles of this Island would not cease. It would perhaps he necessary to appeal to England that the affairs of the Maoris might be managed properly. Until all the Maoris died off the troubles would not cease. In the first and second years in which he was in Parliament matters were carried on clearly; but during the last two years they could not understand what was going on. If Native affairs were properly managed Provincial distinctions should be abolished. The Maoris asked to have the care of their own districts, and more representation in the House. They were not wanderers, but the real people of the soil. More Maoris, therefore, should he allowed to enter Parliament, to show that both races were living amicably. There should be more of them in Parliament, that all the talking should not be left to the white members, and nothing left to the Maoris but to acquiesce iu what was proposed. He spoke for all the Maoris of the Island. Mr. ICATENE thought that part of the debate was set apart for the Maoris. He and his friend (Mr. Parata) were members of the Executive, and supported nothing that had injured the Maoris. They were not walking in the dark. The ‘resolution of the Government ■ was a proper one. Ho thoroughly approved of doing away with the Provinces, aud of what the Premier had said about doing away-with the red lines on the map. He had heard that tMs was the enly Colony of Great Britain in which there were two forms of government. Why should it not he assimilated to the constitutions of other Colonies ? The money of the Colony was spent by the General Government and the Provincial Councils. The people boro the burden. The resolution was a proper one. The Premier need not do away altogether with the Superintendents ; they might he called Government Agents. If hon. members were not members of Provincial Councils they would see that this was a very proper resolution. He desired to see the General Government alone eating the flesh of New Zealand. It should he the duty of the General Government alone to administer the affairs of the island. (Applause.) Mr. DONALD REID saw with great pain the levity with which the debate had been conducted. It might be a certainty on the part of the Government that they had a voting power sufficient to carry tfce resolutions, but it was the duty of some member of it to put
forward some better arguments than were to be found in the barren speech of the Treasurer. Why were they to he asked to unsettle the minds of the people on barren resolutions such as these, and then leave it over till next session to let the public see what the Government really proposed ? This was not a matter that had been taken up calmly and deliberately by the Government. "He was forced to one -of two conclusions—that it was brought on in a petulant spirit to revenge the Premier on the hon. member for the Hutt, or because of a deeper motive than that of merely creating State Forests. Referring to the large expenditure, he asked if the expenditure in the North Island was much larger than their income, was that any reason why Provincial Governments should be abolished. He believed that in a few years the Provinces would be able to show a larger revenue than the Colonial Government, aud that it would be managed to much greater advantage. Experience had 'proved that Provincial management was much more economical than that of the Central Government, because the 'latter was on the spot to supervise and control the works going on, and to take up individual responsibility. The Central Government could uot do so. When the hou. member is told-that the maintenance of State Forests and Provincial institutions are incompatible with each other, aud said the only remedy was the abolition of Provincial institutions, he asked the House to pause before giving the expected reply to that question. Provincial institutions gave even an air to this Assembly. In the system which was to supersede that system he saw all the evil which some. hou. members asserted they saw in it. If the idea embodied in the resolution before them were carried out, there would come to be so great an amount of legislation for the General Assembly that the quality of the representation in it would be greatly depreciated. The Provincial Councils had work proper for themselves. The very reason given in connection with the forests for their abolition, was in his estimation the very reason why they should not be abolished What was the difference between Provinces aud local governing bodies ? The latter would cany out the system much more expensively than the former. He did not object to the creation of counties aud road-hoards, but even then they must have a governing head. There must be a central board to have control over the whole ; and what better Board than the Provincial Councils ? It was idle to be playing on words, and on what names bodies should have. We must have these governing bodies. The circumstances of the Colony were totally different from those of Victoria. What central government could regulate the finances and other affairs of. the counties, which were talked of. Each of the harbors marked off in the maps on the walls, with the hues of roads marked as radiating from them, was a centre of a district, which must have its own Government. If the four Northern Provinces were abolished the saving would be £13,800. If twelve counties with their officials were substituted, the expenditure would amount to double that sum. Once a system of counties is established, the House would have but little control over their expenditure. But what of the resident agents in the present Provinces. The cost of the extra work of legislation itself would be more than the saving they had shown. They were to have a harbor at Taranaki out of these savings. Was it to he out of the savings in connection with the Provincial savings of Taranaki ? Irrespective of the financial aspect of the question, the work of the Provinces would not he successfully carried out in. forming a network of roads. A county system would not find the money for these works any more than a Provincial system; and under a county system an efficient staff could not be maintained. The power placed in the hands of the Government would thorougMy demoralise, politically, the people who came under the new system. The host of officials it would create would be forced to support the Government, and with the discontents in the South, the power of the Government to whom they would he hound would he enormous in this Assembly. The people of tire Colony were not prepared to he governed hy Government residents, agents, and engineers. But they could not shut their eyes to the danger that would arise from such a state of things. If tMs change is desired, let it come from those who we are told are anxious for it —the people themselves. Do not let us lay our hands rashly, in a fit of temper, on the noble Constitution wMch we enjoy—a Constitution framed hy much abler men than were now iu the House. Many of those who were prepared to vote for this resolution did not think they were hound to vote for the Bill, or all its details. He held that if they supported the resolution they must support the Bill also. They were asked to make an experiment—on what ? On the Constitution 1 it was one of the most dangerous of all things, aud might cost more than money. The agit .tion would not proceed throughout the length and breadth of the land without carrying dissatisfaction among those who were now investing in New Zealand bonds in the English market. Why did the Government get up this agitation ? Had they not sufficient matters of more immediate importance to occupy them ? The Constitution was not incapable of improvement; but he contended that it was impossible to improve upon the Provincialisystem. He hoped hon. members would think very seriously before they committed themselves to the resolutions,-leaving it to the Government to bring down their Bill next session. “History repeats itself,” but he would like to give the House the views of a gentleman on this subject who had taken a prominent part in New Zealand politics during the past ten years. [The hon. member then read extracts from a speech in 1868— just six years ago —hy one of the leading men of the Colony —the Premier, aud commended them to the attention of the House.] He hoped their author would take a little more time to consider the great change which he proposed to thrust upon, them. He believed the result of the scheme contemplated by the Premier would he a failure, and' therefore he was constrained to oppose the resolution. The Assembly had hitherto conducted its affairs in an independent manner, creditable to themselves ; but he doubted if that would continue if the Premier's proposal was accepted. It was said they would under a General Government have one land law for all. But did not the Assembly legislate on the management of the lands ? Let the Government bring down their laud law—hut he thought it would he as difficult a matter to pass such a law, as it would be to embrace in one Statute provisions satisfactory to all parts of the Colony. He doubted whether things had been going so smoothly as the Premier asserted, when he asked what motive the Government had for bringing down this measure. He had uot passed the Extension of the Franchise Bill The South Sea Scheme was not yet passed. If the State Forests Bill was claimed as a victory, he made the Government welcome to it. The Bill, he thought, had been brought iu from motives of ambition. He would vote for the previous question. At half-past eleven o’clock Mr. Macandrew again moved the adjournment of the debate until next day. Mr. VOGEL said it was better that this debate should he carried on till it was finished, that the other business might he gone on with. He proposed that immediately after the petition as to the Waitemata election was disposed of the debate should be resumed. This was agreed to, and the House adjourned at 11.30 p.m.
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New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4184, 18 August 1874, Page 2
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16,267PARLIAMENT. New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4184, 18 August 1874, Page 2
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