PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4181, 14 August 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 13. The Hon. tho Speaker took the chair at two o'clock. RErORTS. The report of the Select Committee on the Lyttelton Gas Bill, and the report of the Select Committee on the Civil Service Acts Amendment Bill, were brought up and read. CANTERBURY WATER SUPPLY MM. The Hon. Dr. POL LEX, in moving the second reading of this measure, said that the promoter of the Bill was His Honor theSuperintendentof Canterbury, and he thought it would be found a very useful measure. The Bill of last year, which had boen rejected, was of a verv stringent character, whereby all the streams and water courses in the Province were to be taken over by the Superintendent. The sum of £25 000 had been appropriated for the works contemplated by the Bill, and some of them were already commenced. The lion, mover then explained the provisions of the Bill, and thought the Council would have no objections to its second reading. The Hon. Colonel BKETT cordially supported the motion, as he was convinced it would prove the greatest boon to the Province ever granted by the Council. There would be no objection made by those residing on the banks of the river. The water-race would traverse a distance of sixty miles, and all the inhabitants along its course would be able to obtain a supply of water which they had now to obtain from the Waimakarirl, a distance of three, four, or five miles. Large quantities of land had been purchased on the faith of these works being constructed. Similar works were contemplated in the Kakala and the Ashburton districts, and he considered it a great disgrace on the Government that they had been delayed so long. . The Hon. Mr. PEACOCK wished for information as to the compensation provided for by clause 4. He wished to know whether the district or the whole Province would bo liable for damage done by, overThe Hon. Colonel BRETT, by leave, explained that there could not possibly be any overflow for more than two or three minutes, while tho surplus water was being turned into the river. The Hon. tho SPEAKER hoped that lion, members would speak to the principle of tho Bill, as the details might be considered in Committee. The Hon. Captain FRASER said that he thought no one could object to the principle of the Bill. The Hon. Mr. ROBINSON thought that the Hon. Mr Peacock had drawn attention to a most material question—the damage done by overflows The Bill cave the Superintendent power to divert all the rivers and streams in the district. What was to become of those settled lower down the streams in very dry seasons ? He considered it a most arbitrary measure. There was no provision in the Bill to prevent the Superintendent taking anyone's garden or plantations for the purposes of this Bill, with only ten days notice. He did not oppose the Bill, but called atten. tion to these arbitrary powers so that remedies might be applied in Committee. The Hon. Mr. BUCKLEY did not intend to oppose the BUI but thought it should be referred to a Select Committee, as there were very objectionable powers (riven by it to the Superintendent. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN pressed for the second reading, immediately after which lie had no objection to its being referred to a Select Committee. Every Bill of this public nature was open to the objection of "arbitrary powers," as in the case 01 railway Bills. He might observe that only a small portion of the rivers or streams would be diverted and carried by iluming. The BUI was then read a second time. WELLINGTON EDUCATION RESERVES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of the Hon. Dr. Pollen- this Bill was read a third time and passed. TE ARO RECLAMATION BILL. The Hon. Dr. GRACE, in moving the second readin" of this measure, entreated the Council to give it their careful consideration. He admitted that at first he looked upon it with suspicion. Its object was to raise £150,000 for reclaiming the foreshore at Te Aro. All the provisions had been most carefully framed. These the hon. mover explained in detail. There was great difficulty in inducing immigrants to leave the town and settle in the country. Or, this ground alone the Bill should commend itself to the Council Then the sanitary condition of the town was very unsatisfactory, and no doubt that was in some measure attributable to the offensive state of the foreshore, where all manner of filth and rubbish was cast up. He therefore hoped the Council would assent to the second reading. .... The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE drew attention to the fact, that the Corporation possessed property worth £25,000, upon which they wanted to borrow £150,000. They were, he thought, very apt pupils of that great master of the art of borrowing who now ruled the destinies of the Province. Then, again, the power of dealing with this land was vested in the Superintendent and Provincial Council, who might sell or otherwise dispose of the land which formed the security for the loan. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL regretted that the Hon. 3lr Waterhonse had sat down without moving an amendment. He quite concurred in the? objections urged by the hon. gentleman with regard to the security proposed ; and moved as an amendment,— "That the Bill be read a second time that day six months." . , The Hon. Dr. POLLEN supported the amendment. The reclamation was, no doubt, desirable ; but he thought that in view of the large amount of land that bad been and was being reclaimed, there was no present necessity for the measure, which might very weU be postponed. The Hon, Mr. BONAR supported the amendment, as he deemed the security offered was such as few would care to advance money on. The Hon. Mr. PATERSON supported the amendment. He thought the provisions of the Bill were most unsatisfactory. The Hon. Dr. GRACE, in replying, expressed his regret at the reception the Bill had met with. With respect to the objection that it wa3 sought to borrow £150,000 on security only worth £25,000, he would observe that after £150,000 had been expended on it, it certainly would be worth more than £150,000. He admitted that the Corporation was a mo3t inefficient body ; but, if they passed the measure, necessity would bring forth the man. The Council divided, and the amendment was carried by 22 to 3. TARANAKI IKON SMELTING WORKS LAND BILL. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES explained the objects of the measure, and moved its second reading. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN thought the presen tcondition of the Province was not so bright as had been represented. He understood that Taranaki hadno land, but they now found that they could give away 10,000 acres as a bonus. They had not been able to And land in their Province for volunteer scrip, to the value of £IO.OOO. Two yeara ago, a Royal Commission was appointed to enquire into the claims of a certain individual to Land, and 17,500 acres were awarded to him. In addition to these, there was 27.000 acres vested in the Provincial CouncU; and then one-fourth of the future revenue was tied up for the purpose of a harbor of refuge. He thought that until Taranaki had provided for existing liabilities, it might well postpone its liabilities in this measure. If the harbor works were to have such an effect on the value of land as they were told last night would be the case, then this bonus would be a most handsome one, far exceeding that offered by the Legislature. The Hon. Mr. MENZIES replied to the objections. The acquisition of a block of 100,000 acres was quite »recent affair, and negotiations were going on for other blocks, so that they woidd be well able to spare the 10,000. He thought the best way of promoting new industries was to offer snch a bonus as would induce parties to undertake them. On a division the motion was negatived by 8 to 0. REGULATION OF MINEB BILL. On the motion of tho Hon. Dr. Pollen, this Bill was read a third time and passed. BILLS COMMITTED. The following Bill3 were passed through Committee :—Wellington Waterworks Act Amendment Bill, Bankruptcy Act Amendment Bill. New Plymouth Harbor Board Endowment Bill, New Zealand University BUI, Real Estate Descent Bill, and Municipal Reserves Bill. On resuming, these Bills were reported, and tho Council adjourned at 5 o'clock. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, Acocst 13. The Speaker took the chair at the usual hour. . PETITIONS. Mr. CARRINCTON presented a petition by Mr. J. 8. Macfarlane against the return of Mr. Von der Mr. READER WOOD asked whether the bonds rendered necessary by the Act of 1862 had been entered into? . , The SPEAKER said he understood these bonds had been given. Mr. READER WOOD read the clause of the Act relating to Elections Petitions; contended that its terms had not been complied with ; and moved that the petition be not received. The motion was agreed to. > OTAOO WABTK LANDS. Mr. REID obtained leave, and brought in a Bill which was read a first time, to regulate the Waste Lands of Otago. THE CALIFORNIA:? MAIL. Mr. "VOGEL informed the House that ho had received a telegram from London, which showed that the contractors for the G'alifornian mail serviceit least, Mr. Forbes, of London—had declared himself unable to carry out his contract. Whether Mr. Hall wonld carry it on temporarily he was unable to say. The telegram said there was good reason to believe that a fresh contract might bo arranged with tho builders of the ships and others. It was not desirable to make tho matter a subject of discussion until tho views of the Government of New South Wales were ascertained. ABOLITION OF NORTH ISLAND PROVINCES. Mr. "VOGEL, on rising to propose the resolutions standing in his name, was received with applause. He said he approached tho subject of the resolutions under a sense of tho very large responsibility and the disadvantage under which he labored in having to prepare a speech upon such an Important occasion in the very short timo at his disposal, aa hon. members must be aware of the large amount of business he had to attend to In tho House, and to the necessary government outside tho House. (Hear.) He might at once state that the action the Government were now taking had been precipitated by the course the debate on the Forests Bill took. . He might at once deal with tho facts that came to light during that discussion—that there was a large opposition to carrying out that great measure, solely, so far as he could understand, on the ground that an attempt was made to interfere with the disposal of the lands by tho Provinces for Provincial purposes. That fact made a very strong Impression on the minds of the Government. Moreover, the figures which then came outshowing the enormous expenditure In this Island

through funds either directly expended by the Colonial Government or provided by the Colonial Government, and the small proportion of that expenditure out of funds of a purely Provincial nature, including land revenue—also created a strong impression in the minds of the Government. There was another feeling which induced the action now being taken, and that was a feeling of doubt whether, notwithstanding the great trouble the Government had taken upon the subject—they were even about to succeed in making proposals to the House that would sufficiently enable the Provinces in this Island to carry on their duties satisfactorily during the present year ; and a stronger reason was not only the doubt that they had made sufficient provision for the present year, but the question how provision was to be made for the following year. The whole of the recess was more or less occupied with financial negotiations with the Provinces, with a view to meeting their requirementssome of a pressing nature, and some merely in the nature of a desire to expend money—with trying to make arrangements with tho - Provinces to enable them to come down with the least possible demands for extraneous assistance. To put the matter plainly, the Colonial Treasurer had not only to finance for the Colony, but was asked to finance for all these Provinces. (Hear.) For a long while there had been a conviction in his mind, as there must have been in the minds of all intelligent people, that an organic change in the system of Government in this Island was most imperatively demanded. He confessed his own views were until somewhat lately rather in the direction of substituting for several Provinces one Province—of consolidating them into one Province. He was quite sure that that was consistent with carrying on with advantage the business of the country ; and was quite certain there must be cither one Province or no Provinces at all. He did not wish to forestall those hon. gentlemen who would take pleasure in taunting him with the various opinions ho had previously held on the subject. He owed it to himself to state exactly what course he had taken. Ever since he had taken part in public affairs in New Zealand he had seen that some large changes were necessary in the system of Government that obtained in the two islands. He was at one time a strong supporter of the principle of separation of tho two islands into two Colonies, Whatever might be said in favor of that plan, the proceedings of the past I four years had totally made it in his opinion—and very few persons would be found to advocate itimpossible to carry out without very great difficulties and long negotiations. He was also at one time strongly in favor of consolidation of the Provinces. He did not recall the opinions he had previously expressed. It seemed to him that in the larger Provinces where there was proper machinery for Government available there would be greater advantages for carrying on tho public business. He mentioned the amalgamation of Southland with Otago as a very wise measure ; and he also thought it woidd be better if there was only one Province in the island than that there should be four Provinces. But the great difficulty in tiie way of making one Province would be the jealousy the other Provinces would feel upon the question of the seat of Government, and the jealousy that would be felt on all questions and conditions of amalgamation. He held that the desirability of one Province in this island was very much modified by the conditions which were apparent, that in reality the General Government did to a great extent carry on the government of this island, that its finance had virtually to be provided by the Colony, and that the work of settlement throughout the island was carried on by the Colony. At present Provincial divisions were rather a hindrance and a disturbance than an assistance. (Hear.) The last few years had been a series of expedients and devices to carry on the Provinces in such a manner as would enable the General Government to gain their consent to carrying on the policy of Public Works and Immigration. In one shape or another they were almost obliged to come down with inducements to the Provinces, in order to induce them to allow the General Government to carry on their great policy, so essential to the welfare of tho Colony. The Provinces had either thrown their weight against the Public Works and Immigration policy, or had lent it in the direction of' the policy upon the condition of providing means, the responsibility and trouble of which had fallen upon the General Government. There might be a few more papers to sign if the General Government had the direct control, but no more care, trouble, or anxiety would be required. He was sick and tired of it, and would much rather that they came to a distinct understanding upon the whole question now, and know whether-the power and responsibility should rest on tho same shoulders or not. Another circumstance that had caused the attention of the Government to be given to this matter was, the wide-spread feeling in the House that this exceptional assistance—not to use the word sopwas not desirable to be continued; and the widespread feeling that it was desirable to deal with the question in a comprehensive statesmanlike manner. The member for Parnell had specially taken very great interest in the subject, and contemplated bringing down resolutions upon it. He was not going to say that he believed these resolutions would have been carried, because he believed the majority of hon. members thought so large a question should be brought down by the Government. (Hear.) No doubt the action the hon. member for Parnell took had served to bring out and illustrate the general opinion on the subject held by hon. members. He was not quite sure that there was not a desire amongst a considerable number, if not the majority of those who would support the resolutions, that they should be dealt with, during the present year. It was not duo to the action of the supporters of the Government, but to the moderation of the Government itself, that instead of bringing down resolutions on the subject, he was now asking for leave to introduce a Bill. It might be recollected that since 1809 the Colony had virtuaUy accepted the responsibility of settling the North Island. Before the Government of which the hon. member for Rangitikei was head, took office, there was a profound disinclination to expend money on this Island. Since 1809 a different course had been pursued. In that year the small amount of £30,000 was authorised, and after that £400,000 additional was authorised for the construction of roads. Since that, in one way or another, there had been a very large . expenditure, either from the Colonial revenue or by means obtained by the credit of the Colony. He reiterated the figures he used the other evening. During the five years ended June SO, 1874, there had been spent in the North Island either by the Colony or out of moneys provided by the Colony no less a sum than £3,380,000. During the three years ended June 30 last there was spent in this island either by the Colony or by means provided by the General Government, the sum of £2,387,000; while during the same three years there was spent from purely local revenue, including land, £418,000. On the one hand the Colony had expended or found £2,387,000, and the Provinces £448,000. These figures must, ho thought, conclusively arouse in the minds of members the idea that the power of the purse—the jiower of expenditure and the responsibility to the House, which was responsible to the taxpayers of the Colony, should rest with the same person. They were not justified in delegating so much power in a manner over which it was impossible they could have any control. Another point was this: the peculiar circumstances of the island, and especially the Native population that inhabited it, made the Provincial divisions inconvenient. Instead of aiding the settlement of Native affairs. Provincial divisions had an opposite effect. He recollected some years ago, the member for Rangitikei, as leader of a great party in the House, came down with proposals by which Superintendents would have been made agents for the General Government in the matter of most Colonial affairs, and speciaUy in the management, to an extent, of Native affairs. He was not prepared to say that that arrangement might not at that time have been well carried on ; he believed it could. He believed anything would have been found better than the state of affairs which prevailed. With the stagnation then existing, anything was desirable to give an impulse to the colonising [spirit which, at the time, was well nigh deadened in this Island, and to a great extent in the Colony. He recollected, as a member of a Provincial Government, year after year vainly endeavoring to obtain tho General Government to construct upon any terms or conditions the railway from Dunedin to the Clutha. (Hear.) The hon. member for Port Chalmers —he did not know whether he should make a convert of him—would bear him out in saying that. (Mr. Macandrew: Hear.) When he heard the other night the statement made of what had been done by an hon. gentleman in the House when he was Colonial Treasurer, and compared with that, his (Mr. Vogel's) action at the time, he asked the House to recollect the widely different position at that time when Provincial Governments were eager to perform the Colony's work, and the General Government set Us face against anything like public works, and the condition of the present, when the General Government bad undertaken works upon an enormous Bcale and magnitude which few hon. gentlemen four years ago could havo dreamed of; and the Provincial Governments in the North Island at any rate only able to perform their part of the work by getting the assistance of the Colony to do it. Was it desirable this should continue, was one of the questions the resolutions asked. It was only necessary to look at the map to see the lines that represented the work the General Government did in this island in scarcely more than four years, and the lines that represented Provincial work for perhaps a quarter of a century previously, and to see what the Colony was doingas compared with the Provinces. They were now running at Colonial expense a coach from Wellington to New Plymouth, and a coach from Wellington by way of Napier to Taranaki. The roads over which the coaches passed were mainly and at very great expense constructed by the Colony. The moment one wcht into the interior of the Island he found the Provincial divisions were rather a hindrance than assistance to the settlement of the interior. The Provinces declined to take over or even maintain the roads already made by the Colony at such large expense. The fact was that Provincial divisions in the North Island had no proper moaning: they were not suited politically or geographically, and their only object was the distribution of personal power, and to give such persons authority over such and such territory. The divisions might just as well have been made without any knowledge of the circumstances of the Colony as they were at present. Distinct Provincial boundaries might have been suitable in times past, but were wholly unsuitable to the present. Districts had grown up independent of Provincial boundaries which retarded, instead of promoting, tho work of settlement. He had said nothing in the way of fault-finding with tho governments themselves, nor did he desire to do so. Ho believed gentlemen more zealous or desirous, of promoting, according to their own opinions, the interests of the Provinces it would be impossible to find ; and in some of tho Provinces it would be impossible to find men more suitable to the task of promoting tho work of settlement than tho members of Provincial Councils. They themselves werefetteredbyconditionswhichprevented them being able to carry on the work of settlement, on account of the Provincial divisions which exist. He hoped he would be perfectly understood, that he should be sorry to say one word to aUow hon. gentlemen to think that he was making any personal complaint. He saw around him gentlemen for whom he had the most profound respect, not only for them personally, but for their ability. He knew it was not their fault;; he was not complaining of that, but only of the system. One of the greatest objections to tho present system was in its financial aspect. From year to year they had to corne down with these expedients and devices to keep up tho Provincial system, and to purchase permission to continue public works and immigration throughout the Colony. It was a grotesque employment of tho revenues of the Colony. They had undertoken to construct the roads in the North Island, of which he had spoken, and paid for them out of Coniralldated KoYonuo, or out of loans charged

against the Consolidated Revenue. There ivere railways and immigration, and subsidies to road boards, all charged to the Consolidated Revenue, and to any increasing extent. Was there to be no limit? Because the circumstances of the Colony threw upon the ordinary revenue all these charges, ought they forget that under different arrangements they might be continued as charges on the Land Fund. He would not at all mince matters. If the General Government took in hand the matter of settling the North Island, one of the changes of the future, after a certain and reasonable time, was that the land fund shall be made applicable for purposes of that kind. He was content to let by-gones be bygones, to pay off to tho end the provision they had already made for three years' subsidy to tho Road Boards, to take the trunk system of railways, to carry out the provision made for immigration—one and a half millions, He was prepared to go on withall that; but was there to bo no end ? He thought there should bo. He went to the fullest possible, extent in favor of localising the land revenue. He gave a flat and absolute denial to the assertion that the Government had any idea of coming upon the land revenue of the South Island with the view of carrying on the policy. Ho read a return of the expenditure in this island to show what his ideas were as to the classification of local revenue in future in that island, i.e., services that should be charged to tho various revenues. Tho return was obtained from the actual returns of the Provincial Auditors of the revenues and expenditure, for 1873. He had no other returns available, and even taking tho appropriations was of little value, as some Provinces wero in the habit of appropriating to a greater extent than they were able to expend. Tho I actual expenditure included liabilities paid during the year on account of 1572. The flgurts showed the expenditure for harbor department, hospitals, lunatic asylum, charitable aid, gaols, police, education. The totel expenditure by the Provinces in this Island amounted to £53,845 during 1873. Deducting £71,000 arising from various services, there was a net cost for ' theservicesreferredtoof£sl,34s. Tho ordinary revenue of the Provinces, under licenses, &c—strictly local revenue—was £33,000. The permanent debt of the Provinces was £1,100,000. The land revenue during the year amounted to £IIB,OOO, the gold revenue to £14,000, the ordinary revenue, t0£33,000; public works, tolls, &c, to £33,000 ; while the capitation and special allowance for 1573-4 was £BB,OOO ; the annual charge on the public debt, £OOOO ; other revenue, £230,000; goldflelds revenue, £11,000; surveys £0000; public works, £52,000 ; Executive expenditure, £IO,OOO ; Legislative expenditure, £2900 ; miscellaneous, £13,000. The first idea that struck him when he read those figures was, what did they give the capitation allowance for? Was it in order to enable the Provinces to carry on certain services ? He was aware that owing to a practice that had grown up, this capitation allowance went to pay the annual interest upon the debt. It was a favorite plan with Provincial Treasurers, to go down to the Provincial Councils and say they had only received two or three thousand pounds this year. These payments should not cover interest and sinking fund on the Provincial debt. It would be interesting to look at tho proportion the consolidated allowance bore to the total expenditure upon those services by tho Provinces. He could not give the exact figures, because in tho one case they were made up for the financial year which ended with June, and the other for the calendar year. But there was no difference, because the period was for twelve months in either case. He found that the total expenditure for tho North Island services to which he had alluded was £55,000, and the nett cost, after deducting special revenues received, was £51,000, while the capitation allowances to the same Province was £BB,OOO. This was to his mind a most significant fact—significant of what a different distribution of the expenditure might lead to. Take the appropriations of the present year in this island, which of course were much larger than what was actually expended. The total appropriations for the same services amounted to £89,000, whilst they were proposing to give capitation allowances this yeai of £93,000. He asked himself if the Colony was to pay the whole cost of these services, should there not be a margin? He left out the ordinary revenue amounting to -£33,000, and had simply taken the expenditure on those services which the capitation allowance paid. There was a miscellaneous expenditure last year amounting to £13,000, which was very difficult to classify, but he would give them the whole benefit of that. Added to the expenditure of £51,000 there was a total expenditure of £05,000 against £BB,OOO from the Consolidated Revenue. He came to the question whether the services were satisfactory, and asked the Colony whether it was not their duty to look upon certain services as necessary for the well-being of the people of the Colony, and their duty to insist on their being carried out with advantage, and quite apart from the question of Provincial divisions. With respect to the proposal for the plan which would follow these resolutions. hon. members would understand that he had not a Bill in his hand. He was only taking general principles, but they must also understand that those principles could not bo given effect to all at once. They must do it gradually. The division that should be made of the revenue would be this. There should be a division of what he would call purely local revenue, such as was obtained from licenses, and means of that kind, and which amounted last year to £33,000. There should be a division of goldflelds revenue, which should be specially applicahle to the purposes of the goldflelds. There should be a division of land revenue; and a division of revenue which was paid by the Colony. That last revenue he held should be applicable to the services to which he had referred, less some amount which should be obtained locally in the shape of revenue. For example, if they set on a proper footing local Government throughout this island, after a time at any rate, some portion of the cost of maintaining police, and of the Educational Department, should be borne by these divisions. The land revenue should be first applicable to the interest on the cost of works constructed from money borrowed on their security ; the balance should be applicable to small local Works, and partly to main arterial works. Ho was not coming down with a scheme of distribution now, as it was not a suitable itime. Local revenue should be localised among the various self-governing districts. The land revenue should be employed on public works which pay interest.and upon public works which include partly smaU local works, and partly main arterial works of a large character, such, for example, as the harbour works at Taranaki, because the circumstances of this island wero such that there should be a harbor there, if they could do it within any reasonable amount of expenditure. On the West Coast, there was too long a stretch between Waitemata and Wellington to do without harbors if these could be got at anything like a reasonable expenditure. With respect to capitation allowance for local services, he believed there should be a plan as between the two islands that should leaveno cause for discontent; and whatever amount was paid in this island out of revenue for tho maintenance of services in thi3 island, a proportionate amount should be paid for similar services in the Middle Island. If members will study these figures they could not fail to come to the conclusion that if they realised with reasonable diligence and not too hastily, the landed estate of this island would supply plenty of means for carrying on the local works which he had already described, and tho other services to which he had referred would be payable by special allowance made by the Colony. The local revenue would be at the disposal of the local governing bodies. It was not part of the intention of the Government to impound the land revenue for any past expenditure, or expenditure to be authorised for completing the system of trunk railways in both islands. Members might ask what was meant by local Government. When we alter the system of Provincial Government we must be alive to the fact of the extent to which the people are willing to do so. It was desirable that the people should exercise local control, and it would be their object to introduce such a system as would give the largest possible amount of self-government compatible with carrying out the conditions and provisions which tho Assembly required. He was not going to express a positive opinion, but so far he was prepared to say that some such plan as that which they had in the district of Timaru might be adopted with advantage in various well-defined districts. He need scarcely say how desirable it was that there should be one uniform land law. The other branch of the Legislature had called upon the Government to bring down a provision for legislation on the subject of confiscated lands, and it would be just as easy to bring down a comprehensive land measure to put an end to the very anomalous position in which the land question at present stood. It might not be unsatisfactory to the House to know how it was proposed to deal with the existing Superintendents. (Laughter.) The opinion of the Government was that provision to the end of their term should be made for the various Provinces, with the exception of one, in which they proposed to recognise a life-long service to the Colony. They proposed to make life-long provision for the Superintendent of Auckland. With respect to Provincial Executives, tho Government did not think that any compensation was called for in their cases. The Government would take over the obligations of Provinces, and therefore the Provincial officers would remain on the same footing as other officers of the General Government. The seat of government would be Wellington. Any departure from (the compact of 1850 he would regard simply as dishonest. They would give to the Middle Island any security it required to have it clearly understood that the land revenues of tho Middle Island should bo solely appropriated to the Middle Island, and that of the various Provinces to those Provinces. He was satisfied that the North Island, properly managed, had resources in land and natural wealth, which would make it independent of tho Middle Island. Ho denied most emphatically what had been announced in the lobbies, that the resolutions meant the ultimate taking over of tho Middle Island Land Fund. It was possible that the success of a new form of government.in tho North Island, which would then be running a raco with the great Provincos of the Middle Island in many local matters, might induce the people in those Provinces to inquire whether their system of government might not be very much improved. There was no doubt the Suporlntenilental form of government would bo put upon its trial, and changes might result from it. The people did not care for jiersons or forms, but desired good government. *' Describing the machinery of tho governmont he proposed, the lion, gentleman said it would be necessary to have a Resident Minister in Auckland, and a Government Agent in Taranaki and Hawke's Bay. In Wellington, he thought tho General Government could very well manage affairs without an officer. (Laughter.) Mr. Vogol concluded by remarking that he wished to say a few words upon an almost personal question. Ho had already referred to what might be said about his having changed his opinions. There wero two species of political tergiversation: ono which arose from conviction ; tho other, Macbethlike, from the whisperings of ambition ; tho ono purely of a public-spirited nature, and tho other of a private and personal nature. No hon. member would suppose that personal ambition, or-any personal object, animated him in this matter. He had every reason a man could possibly have to remain quiet and not to have taken the matter up. Tho Government had also a majority in the House. The session was nearly over, and members were inclined to follow the lead of tho Government. No member could for a moment supposo that it was brought down from any other viow than a strong conviction that tho change the Government proposed was rondored necessary by the circumstances of tho country. The course now taken would give him much personal pain, would embroil him in a struggle which would bo liable to end in the rupturo of political alUances which had lasted for. many years. Tho question should bo ap-

proached in an opon manner, and not in an undermining, sapping, or concealed way. If the result should be that the Honso and the country should bo averse to the proposed change, it would be a pleasure to the Ministry to retire from office with the knowledge that they had not tailed to perform what they considered to be their duty to the country. He moved the resolution standing in his name. (Great applause.) Mr. O'EORKE said that, before the debate proceeded further, he desired to make a personal explanation. In the remarks he was about to make, he would make no reference to the speech which had just been delivered, and which had been apparently received with a considerable amount of enthusiasm. He wished to state that he was no party, and could be no party, to the proposal that had been made. (Opposition cheers.) Ho could not do such violence to his convictions as to vote for it, ! for l<e felt sure the scheme could not be carried out, and that the sense of the country would Revolt against it. Wero he to vote for it, he would deserve to bo branded as a base political traitor. Although he was aware that a great name might be .found for political apostacy, he was not disposed to shelter himself under it. If he obtained admission to that Parliament on certain principles, he did not feel at liberty to fling those principles to the wind for the sake of office, or to suit his own caprice, If such an occurrence took place with him, he would be bound to return to his constituents, who put him in that position, and would trust and abide by their decision. During the fourteen years he hid been a member of the House ho i had unswerving'y adhered to the principles of the Constitution Act. He thought the principles of that Act were eminently framed to favor the Colony. For that Act they were very much indebted to that distinguished Governor, Sir George Grey. To his mind, every invasion and every alteration upon that Act had boon prejudicial, especially to tho Provinco of Auckland, and ho thought ho might say to tho North Island. That Act did not give us a monopoly of political life in any one portion of the Colony, but established in several parts of the Colony nurseries of political thought. It could not bo expected that, in the twinkling of an eye, ho was going to deny tho tenor of his previous political life. His position on that Bench was not of his own seeking; he would never have occupied it if lie had thought his hon. friend had had in his copious armoury a dagger of perfidy witli which to ;stab the Provinces. (Opposition cheers.) That was the general ground on which he opposed the proposal, but as a member for tho Province of Auckland lie had special grounds. The resolutions, to his mind, compressed into the smallest space possible every effort ,that could be made to offend the Province. Political life would cease thcr«; political life would necessarily be leadened and deadened in the Province of Auckland, by a central power four hundred miles distant. He believed also that tho Province would be steeped in poverty if she were held to tho foolish bargain made by the Provinces of the North Island by the compact of 185 G. Why was it necessary to flaunt in their faces the fact that she had boen uncrowned by having tho seat of Government .removed? In making these remarks, he wished the House to understand that he was actuated by no personal motives against the gentlemen sitting around him. From them he had always received the utmost consideration. Ho himself believed that when the passion of the hour passed away, they would despise him, as he would despise himself, if he had foregone the principles that he had hitherto avowed. Ho left them to their consciences in this matter. Ho thought tho leader of the House could not see what would be the end of the voyage on which he had entered. He had to state that he retired from the Ministry. He had taken this course without being instigated thereto by any living soul. It was purely spontaneous. The Premier would bear him out when he stated that, when it was announced that the measure was to be pressed, he could no longer see his way to be a member of the Ministry. He stated so explicitly, and distinctly. Ho had no desire to be considered a martyr in the matter, but he most positively shrank from having the brand of political treachery attached to his namo. (Prolonged Opposition cheers.) The PREMIER supposed'he owed the House an apology for the fact that a member of the Government of which he was the head, should have made tho exhibition which had just been; made. (Hear, and cries of "Chair," and "No.") Anything so exceptional had never been heard of before. Mr. FITZHERBERT: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member has already spoken. It is contrary to the rules of the House, unless with the consent of the House, that he should be permitted to make such an address. The' SPEAKER: The Hon. the Premier is in perfect order in making an explanation which is personal to himself, but he would not bo in order in criticising the speech of the hon. member for Onehunga. Mr. FITZHERBERT was not objecting to that, but was objecting to the hon. member at the head of the Government going further by attacking a member of that Houso.

The SPEAKER: I did not hear any attack. (Cries I of "Oh!") Mr. VOGEL thought the honor and dignity of the House required an explanation of a statement made in such a way. He did not wish to discourage any political capital being made out of the circumstance— Mr. FITZHERBERT : I again rise to object to the hon. member making a second speech, and call upon you, Mr. Speaker, to interfere. The SPEAKER: So far as the Hon. the Premier has proceeded, he is quite in order. Mr. VOGEL said that when a member of Government got up and stated what had just been said, his (Mr. Vogel's) own veracity and that of his colleagues were at stake, as was the reputation of the House. What would be the reputation of the House if things of that kind were passed without explanation? He would be very sorry to have to go into Cabinet matters, because they were matters that were sacred from prying eyes. But ho believed the hon. gentleman was his colleague at present. (Laughter and applause.) In Cabinet— The SPEAKER called the hon. member to order. He did not think it proper, or in accordance with Parliamentary practice, that matters discussed In Cabinet should be brought up for discussion in the House. (Hear.) The hon member could not go beyond the limit of a personal explanation. Mr. VOGEL observed that he had not interrupted the hon. member, and therefore should have the same indulgence granted to him. He would put the matter in this way—the hon. gentleman had not signified to him, as head of the Government, nor to any of his colleagues, that he intended to retire from the Government, or to take the course he had just taken. It was wholly and entirely a surprise to him. He thought that whatever opposition he might have felt to the resolutions would have been urged, and that it was usual for members of a Government to fall in with the proposals adopted by the Government as a whole, so long as he did not retire from the Cabinet. He (Mr. Vogel) was responsible for the Government, and stated that the hon. gentleman had not yet retired from the Government, yet he had thought right, at the very last moment as it were, to make the speech he did without signifying his intention to do so, or allowing it to be supposed in the remotest manner by any of his colleagues that such was either the caseredes of *' Chair.") The SPEAKER ruled that the hon. member was entirely in order. Mr. VOGEL wished to make tins plain: that a head of a Government would always be placed in a most unfair and ambiguous position if it was at all the right of members of a Government to remain with their colleagues, and yet take the course just taken by the hon. member. Personally, ho said it would be a serious matter of regret to lose the very assiduous, earnest, and zealous assistance the hon. gentleman had constartly and satisfactorily given to the Government. At the same time he hoped the. Government would be able to survive the shock, and that, notwithstanding the care and attention he had given the departmental work, it would still bo able to be carried on. . , Mr. REEVES gave it as his deliberate opinion, which ho believed was the opinion of the majority of the House, and he felt sure that the people of the Colony would also be of that opinion, that it might be competent for this Parliament to deal with tho question, but that it would be very unwise and injudicious to do so, and that it should at onco bo relegated to their constituencies. There could be no possible objection to the adjournment of the dobate for a few of " Monday ")—and ho would move its adjournment until Monday. Tho debate was then adjourned until Monday at 2.30 p.m. BILLS COMMITTED. The Employment of Females Act Amendment Bill and the Wanganui Mayors Bill were committed. The former was amended, and both were reported. WELLINGTON LAND PAYMENTS BILL. On the farther consideration of this Bill, Mr. ANDREWS said the Bill would enable tho Provincial Council to dispose of every acre of public land in tho Province at a nominal price. He proposed to add a provision that no land Bhould be offerea at less than the minimum price of land of a like class. Mr. BUNNY said the clause under discussion would not have the effect supposed. The House had passed a precisely similar clause in another Bill. He asked the House to pass tho clause as it stood, leaving it to Its fortune in another place. Mr. VOGEL thought that that would scarcely be a constitutional course. There might bo exceptional cases in which arrangements for payment In land might bo proper, but to make it a systematic practice would bo most objectionable. Mr. CUTIIBERTSON said the system had been tried in Southland, but had not worked successfully. Sir V. D. BELL supported tho principle of tho Bill. If tho Colonial Government were not prepared to construct the public works the Provinces required, and would not allow the Provinces themselves to borrow money for tho purpose, tho land fund must bo allowed to be used in some such way as this. Mr. ANDREW opposed tho prinoiplo of the Bill, but again pointed out that if an unscrupulous Government should ever rule tho Province of Wellington they would have power to do a great deal of harm. Mr. VITSSHERBERT said tho power was not left to tho Government but to the Council of the Province. Why should they be afraid to trust the representatives of the people ? . After Bomo observations from Mr. T. L. SiiEriiititD in opposition to the clause, Mr. KOLLESTON remarked that the present uncertain state of tho law relating to waste lands was most Injurious. It would bo bettor for tho Colony if tho Government wore to bring down a general Bill on tho subject. It was a great mistake to allow tho present uncertainty to remain as to the future of tho waste lands. - , , Mr. VOGEL hoped tho Committee would insist on a limit being fixed. Mr. EITZHERBERT advised tho hon. member (Mr. Bunny) in charge of the Bill, to accept tho amendment proposod, making a limitation, tho totalamount of land not to exceed 1000 acres or £IOOO in any ono contract, or 5000 acres or £SOOO In any one year, as proposed by Mr. Andrew. Tho clause as amended was agreed to, and the Bill reported. PUBLIC REVENUES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Tho Houso wont Into Committee on this Bill, tho various clauses of which were agreed to, and tho Bill reported, road a third time, and passed. SOUTHLAND WASTE LANDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. In Committee, this Bill was agreed to. New clauses wero addod, and the Bill reported, read a third timo, and passed. I NELSON WASTE LANDS BILL. This Bill was read it third time and passed.

HOOPER AND NORTON REGISTRATION BILL. This Bill was considered in Committee, reported, and read a third time. MORE THIRD HEADINGS. The Clutha River Trust Reserve Bill, the Nelson Waterworks Loan Bill, and the Grass Forest Fires Prevention Bill, the Outlying "Districts Sale of Spirits Act Amendment Bill, and the Borough of Westport Proceedings Bill, were read a third time and passed. THAMES MINING TRAMWAYS BILL. Mr. SHEEHAN, in the absence of Mr. O'Neill, moved the second reading of this Bill, the objects of which he explained. The motion was agreed to without discussion, and the Bill committed and reported without amendments. MANAWATU-RANQITIKEI CLAIM. Mr. FITZHERBERT brought up the subject of tho claims of the Government of Wellington in connection with the purchase " f the Manawatu-Rangitikei Block. A question of order having arisen, Mr. VOGEL said the Government thought the Speaker had erred in the award he had made. The Province had cleared a large sum of money in excess of the cost of the land, and, therefore, the Government could not see that the claim of the Province or the award of tho Speaker was just. It was agreed that the House should go into Committee to-morrow to consider the subject. SECOND READINGS. The Oj'ster Fisheries Bill, and the Wellington Burial Ground Bill, the Native Land Act Amendment Bill, and the Outlying Districts Sale of Spirits Act Amendment Bill, were read a second time. INSPECTION OF MACHINERY BILL. In Committee some discussion took place on the question of the eight hour system as applied to persons in charge of machinery. Mr. Richardson thought it was impossible and unnecessary in this Colony to make such a restriction. After some discussion, in which Mr. O'Neill, Mr. T. Kolly, Mr. Murray, Mr. [Reynolds, Mr. J. C. Brown, Major Atkinson, Mr. Gibbs, Mr. Wales, and Mr. Luckie, took part, an amendment by Mr. Sheehan, limiting the hours to eight, was negatived by 23 to 5. Mr. Wales then moved a new clause, limiting the hours to eight, and empowering men employed about boilers and machinery to claim extra pay for every hour they were employed beyond eight, which was negatived on the voices. Tho Bill was then reported, read a third time and passed. GOLDFIELDS LEGISLATION. Mr. O'NEILL moved a resolution to the effect that it was desirable that Government should, next session, bring in a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to gold-mining, in accordance with the recommendation of the report of the Goldfields Committee. The motion was agred to. SALE OF LAND FOR NON-PAYMENT OF RATES. Mr. SHEEHAN stated that the law on this subject was in a most unsatisfactory state, and almost unworkable, from the expenses attending the sale of small blocks of land for non-payment of rates by absentee proprietors. He hoped the Government would deal witli the matter next session. If they did not, he would himself take the matter in hand. Mr. J. E. BROWN referred to the state of the law in Queensland as offering a model which might be followed. In Victoria a right was given to lease lands so situated for a term of years. That plan, also, would be a good one to follow. Major ATKINSON said it was found impossible in many cases in his Province (Taranaki) to collect the rates. Sir DONALD McLEAN said the Government would take the matter in hand. PETITIONS. Mr. T. KELLY moved that the report of the Public Petitions Committee, recommending that the petitions of Mr. E. Ford, Hans Tapsell, and Pirini Toma, and of Maoris and Europeans at Waikanao, be referred to the Government for consideration. Agreed to. NATIVE SCHOOLS AT TE AUTE. Mr. TAKAMOANA brought under the notice of the House the subject of the grants of land for Native Schools at To Auto, and moved that the matter bo referred to the Committee on Native Affairs. Tho motion was agreed to. MEASUREMENT V. AD VALOREM DUTIES. In answer to Mr. Murray, Mr. REYNOLDS said, all the information the Government could give as to the increase of revenue from the change of duties from the measurement to the ad valorem system, was contained in the Financial Statement already made to the House. The remaining orders of the day were disposed of, and the House adjourned at 11.35 p.m.