PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4158, 18 July 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, July 17. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m. INSPECTION OP MACHINERY. The Council went into Committee on this Bill. Clause 11, "Persons possessing machinery to send notice to Inspector." A division took place on the question that the clause stand part of the Bill—Ayes, 9 ; Noes, 9. The Chairman gave his casting vote with the Ayes, and the clause was accordingly retained. Clause 31—Fees to be paid for Inspection. On division, the Ayes were 5, the Noes 13. Tho clause was accordingly erased from the Bill. & The Hon. Dr. RENWICK moved that the words " all breweries" should be added to the first schedule. The motion was negatived. The Bill was then passed through Committee without further alteration, and leave obtained to sit again on Tuesday. FIRST READINGS. The Westland Loan Act Amendment Bill and Canterbury Domains Bill were read a first time. The Council adjourned at 4.20 p.m. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, July 17. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o'clock. PETITION. Mr WOOD presented a petition from C. A. Harris, of Auckland, complaining of the conduct of the late Superintendent of Auckland, in issuing a license to J. S. Macfarlane to float timber upon the petitioner's land, whereby it had been injured, and praying that remedy might be made for the injury done him. NEW LICENSING ACT. Mr. VOGEL gave notice of his intention to introduce, at the next sitting, a Bill to amend the Licensing Act of 1873. LEAVE OS" ABSENCE. On the motion of Mr TOLMIE, leave of absence was granted to Mr. Webster for fourteen days, on account of urgent private business. OAMARU-WAITAKI RAILWAY. Mr. STEWARD asked the Minister for Public Works, —" When it is intended to call for tenders for laying the permanent way on the Oamaru-Waitaki portion of the WaitakiMoeraki Railway. Also, when it is likely that the sections from Oamaru to Otepepo, and from Otepepo to Moeraki, will be ready for the rails." The inhabitants of the district which he represented desired information in regard to the main trunk line now in course of construction. He wa3 not quite sure whether the present contract was merely for the earthwork or for the works with sleepers. Although the earthwork was nearly completed, no' steps had yet been taken to lay the permanent way. He would point out that a branch railway, to connect with the main line, had been undertaken by the Provincial Government, and the inhabitants of the district were exceedingly anxious that the main line should be ready in time for the transport of wool and other products next season. Mr. RICHARDSON replied, as to the first part of the question, that the present contract did not include laying the permanent way. The earthworks were nearly completed, and part was ready for calling for tenders for laying the permanent way ; but they were not in a position to supply the contractor with sleepers. Very great difficulty was experienced in getting sleepers, and the Government could not call for tenders for the permanent way until they saw the way clear to getting sleepers. He hoped in the course of another month to be able to do so ; in that case the line would be ready in a very short time afterwards. With regard to the second part of the question, the contracts for sections referred to included everything; the contract time was 19th January, 1875 ; and the contractors said they would be able to complete them within that time. TIMARU-TEMUKA RAILWAY. Mr. G. B. PARKER asked,—" Whether the railway from Timaru to Temuka will be •completed before the next grain season." Mr. RICHARDSON replied that there would be no difficulty in getting the line opened by next wool season, as far as Young's Creek. The time for completing the section from Young's Creek to Temuka, including bridges, was May 6, 1875, and the contractors ■would have it completed hy that time. There was great delay in getting the material conveyed overland from Lyttelton. Mr.. PARKER further inquired whether after the bridges were completed there would be any difficulty on opening the line as far as Temuka. Mr. RICHARDSON : No delay whatever. CIVIL SERVICE BILL. Mr. SWANSON asked the Premier,— " Whether he had any objection to lay upon the table of the House the opinion of the AttorneyGeneral as to the right of the civil servants to pensions, which was . submitted to the select committee appointed last session to report upon the Civil Service Bill." Mr. "VOGEL replied that he had obtained the opinion of the Attorney-General referred to as chairman of the select committee, and the committee were of opinion, if he recollected rightly, that it was not desirable to publish it. He did not think there was much objection to laying it on the table. He had had a copy taken and would place it in the hands of the hon. gentleman, and if he thought it desirable to move that it be laid on the table he (Mr. would have no objection to doing so. Mr. SWANSON did not think it right for any member of the committee to move for the production of tho paper. Mr. VOGEL would take the responsibility of laying it on the table. (Hear.) It was better that the civil servants and others concerned should know about it. LIGHTHOUSE AT TORY CHANNEL. Captain KENNY asked,—" Why the lighthouse at Tory Channel Heads had not been erected ; and whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with a work so long contemplated, without further delay." An appropriation for this work was made in 1870, and in 1871 he directed the attention of Government to the matter, and asked why it had not been proceeded with. While acknowledging its importance, the Government then said it was owing to the want of funds ; but that plea could not be urged now, and he hoped the reply would be to the effect that the lighthouse would be at once proceeded with. Mr. REYNOLDS said the late expedition had been instructed to examine sites both at Tory Channel and Cape Foulwind. The report was given in, and a light ordered from home, but as there was only one firm that supplied lights, this Colony had to wait its turn. As yet tho Government had not received any information as to when the light would be received. The question had cropped up whether ' the light at Mana Island was properly situated, and it might possibly be found necessary, instead of erecting a lighthouse at Tory Channel, to change some of the lights j in Cook Strait. He was not offering any opinion, but there was a general opinion among nautical men that some wrecks had been caused in consequence of the lights not being properly placed. At the present time they were making full inquiries with the view of ascertaining whether tho lights were properly placed or not ; and until that was done it would be impolitic to determine to erect a light at Tory Channel. He trusted the hon. member would see no unnecessary delay had taken place. If a delay for another twelve months took place it would be worth incurring if it led to Cook Strait being properly lighted. REPORT ON LIGHTHOUSES. Mr. O'NEILL asked, —" When would a report on Now Zealand lighthouses be laid on tho table of the House." Mr. REYNOLDS replied that an interim report had been received from the officers who had charge of tho recent expedition, but it had not yet been presented. It was a question of such importance that he did not think it advisable in tho meantime to publish it or to lay it on the table. He trusted that tho hon. member would be satisfied that so soon as the

Government received full information as to lighting the whole coast there would be no delay in bringing the report before the House, but he did not think that was likely to be done this Session. The Marine Reports would give a pretty good idea of what was done during the recess. That report he had not yet been able to get completed, because information from so many parts of the country had not yet arrived. Some reports from extreme parts of the Colony had not been received by the department, and until they were received it was impossible to bring up the report. If the hon. member was desirous of getting information with regard to the report in favor of a lighthouse at Cape Maria Van Dieman, if he would call on him (Mr. Reynolds) at his office any time the Hous3 was not sitting, he would show him the papers connected with that matter, but he hoped the House would not insist on«Jhe reports being laid on the table. CONDITION OF THE CHAMBER. Sir J. C. WILSON complained of the state of things at the left of the chair, to which he attributed the attack of chronic inflammation from which he was suffering. He did not know what was to be done ; but he thought there was something exceedingly wrong with the fireworks at the rear. (Laughter.) The SPEAKER said the hon. member for Heathcote was only echoing a complaint universal among members. He had sent for the Colonial Architect, and they went over the matter that morning. At that time the thermometer in the building registered 48 deg., and hon. members were obliged to go away. The Colonial Architect then went away, and the next stage was that his room was so full of steam that everything had to be cleared out. He really did not know what to do. (Laughter.) Mr. ORMOND complained of the wind being felt at the backs of hon. members on the left of the chair. BILLS. Leave was given to Mr. Macandrew to introduce " A Bill to make further provision for the Sale and Occupation of Waste Lands of the Crown in the Province of Otago ;" to Mr. Ormond to introduce " A Bill to amend the land laws at present in force in the Province of Hawke's Bay, and make other provision in lieu thereof ;" and to Mr. Steward to introduce "A Bill to validate certain reserves made by the Superintendent and Provincial Government of Otago for the endowment of the hospital at Oamaru," and " A Bill to legalise marriage with a deceased wife's sister." The Bills were read a first time, and their second readings fixed for Wednesday. PETITION FROM THE THAMES. The Public Petitions Committee reported on the petition of the Mayor and Borough Council, and the inhabitants of the Thames, praying for increased representation to that district—• that as the question of the readjustment of the representation of the Colony was to be shortly submitted to the consideration of the House on the motion of - Mr. Sheehan, they did not consider it necessary to make any recommendation. SUPREME COURT JUDGES BILL. This Bill was passed. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS GAS WORKS BILL. The committal of this Bill was postponed till Tuesday. DUTIES ON COLONIALLY-MADB SPIRITS. The adjourned debate was resumed on the question,—" That the House go into Committee of Ways and means, to consider the following proposals:—-1. That on-and after the Ist day of July, 1875, seven shillings bo charged on Colonial distilled spirits. 2. That on and after the Ist day of- July, 1877, eight shillings be charged on Colonial distilled spirits. 3. That on and after the Ist day of July, 1879, nine shillings be charged on Colonial distilled spirits." On a supplementary Order Paper there appeared the following notice by Mr. Macandrew :—To move, when in Committee of Ways and Means, as an amendment upon the resolutions of the Commissioner of Customs:—" 1. That, having in view the loss of revenue to the Colony consequent on the continuation of the differential duty as fixed by the 60th section of The Distillation Act, 1868, it is inexpedient that any further licenses should be granted for carrying on the business of distillation under that Act until after 31st December, 1877. 2. That in order to remove all cause of complaint which might otherwise exist on the part of those distillers who have been induced to enter into the business of distillation by reason of the inducement offered by the Act of 1868, the differential duty allowed by that Act shall continue upon all spirits distilled in New Zealand prior to 31st December, 1877. 3. That in order to afford permanent security to persons engaged in the business of distillation in New Zealand against any sudden or unexpected increase in the rate of duty on Colonial distilled spirits, sucli rate of duty shall be as follows :—On all distilled spirits manufactured in the Colony during the year 1878, a duty of seven shillings per gallon. On all distilled spirits manufactured in the Colony during the year 1879, a duty of seven shillings and sixpence per gallon. On all distilled spirits manufactured in the Colony during the year 1880, and thereafter in each succeeding year until altered by law, a duty of eight shillings per gallon shall be charged." On the motion for going into Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. MACANDREW asked to be informed whether or not it was competent in the event of the House going into committee to afterwards refer the matter to a Select Committee.

The SPEAKER replied that it would not he competent to do so. That course could be afterwards adopted in the House. If the Committee on Ways and Means did not come to a resolution consideration of the question, might be postponed, by reporting progress in Committee, for an indefinite time ; and in the meanwhile a motion could be made to refer the matter to a Select Committee, which would anticipate further action in Committee on Ways and Means. Mr. MAC ANDREW thought a Select Committee was the proper way to investigate this matter, which involved questions of fact, and the taking of evidence. He would like the Government to intimate that they were prepared to let the matter be examined in the first instance by a Select Committee. Mr. VOGED did not think a Select Committee necessary at that stage. The position of the Government in the matter was this: they considered it advisable to increase the excise duty gradually ; and this was the increase they recommended to the House. If the House went into Committee, and the increase was carried, it to a certain extent thereby expressed the opinion of the Committee. The resolution would have to be adopted afterwards, and be the subject of a Bill. That Bill was not at any of its future stages to be met by propositions for a diminution of the duties. It was competent to reduce, but not to increase the duty proposed under such Bill. Diminishing the duty could be done in the ordinary way, but to propose new duties required unusual action. The Government thought it desirable that the excise duties should Jbe increased to what was proposed under the resolution ; but it having been said that by their doing so certain persons would be injuriously affected, and who would have claims for compensation, the Government had taken opinion upon that matter. The opinion of the Attorney-General, which had been published, was, as he took it, substantially to the effect that while there was no doubt there was a substantial agreement between the Government and the distillers, it was not one of those agreements under which it was usual to give compensation. To a certain extent it was impossible to increase or diminish any duty" without affecting someone. Were the Customs duties to be abolished to-morrow, the probability was that a number of persons who had just paid duties of large stocks or had old stocks would consider themselves ill-treated, although tho bulk of the people would bo considerably relieved. But the question of compensation under such circumstances was very rarely entertained. In New Zealand there was a tendency to give compensation on tho smallest provocation, an inclination that did not exist elsewhere The question was—first, whether or not it was expedient to increase these duties ; and second, whether if to any persons who might bo injuriously affected it would be necessary to give Borne compensation, or for the House to take any exceptional action In respect of those

persons. If the resolution wag carried in committee, the Government proposed either to move that it he referred to a select committee before the report was adopted, or else to refer the Bill after its first reading to a select committee. But that select committee could not inquire into the question of increasing the excise duties ; that was a qtiestion that entirely belonged to the House. It was not usual to refer to a select committee the question of increasing the taxation : but the committee might consider whether or not the step the House was taking was one which necessarily led to exceptional action being required. But until the House had gone into committee there was nothing before it to refer to a select committee. He was of opinion that the Distillation Act was a mistake. (Hear.) It was passed with an excellent intention, and with the idea that it would very much foster the agricultural interest : whereas it was very doubtful if it had done or was likely to do so. A great deal of the grain consumed for distilling purposes was sometimes imported from outside New Zealand. Of course, a select committee could consider the matter of compensation, but he must express the opinion that in these matters it would be better to be guided by the advice of authorised persons competent to give such opinions, rather than by their generous instincts. A question worthy of consideration in committee was, whether it would not be desirable to abolish the whole thing ? (Hear.) If so, it might possibly cause the Belect committee to consider under what circumstances the distillers would be prepared to give up distillation altogether. He did not think they could offer to buy up the buildings, plant, &c, neither was it desirable to entertain such a proposal ; but the business, if it had been a profitable one, must be of some value, and if a moderate sum, which would be recouped to the revenue in the course of two or three years, would induce the parties interested to give up distillation altogether, then the payment of compensation might be desirable. Not only did distillation cause a considerable loss of revenue, but a departmental expenditure for looking after the distilleries of over £IOOO. _'.'.'..\ Mr. PYKE proposed as an amendment that the consideration of these resolutions and the proposed amendment of the member for Port Chalmers be referred to a Select Committee. Mr. REYNOLDS observed that hon. members seemed anxious to take the discussion in the House. (No.) He was prepared to be guided by the wishes of the House. Members would not be prejudicing any claims that might exist on the part of the distillers by voting for going into Committee of Ways and Means. Mr. T. B. GILLIES advocated the appointment of a Select Committee as a preliminary step. Mr. VOGEL said private interests were being mixed up with questions of a public nature. , Increasing the taxation could not be reconciled with private interests, which could be properly dealt with by a Select Committee at a later period. The responsibility of spending the public moneys belonged primarily to the Government, and hon. members should be content to follow the lead of the Government in such matters. (Hear.) So long as the Government gave ample opportunity for considering the private interests involved it seemed to him that the endeavor to force upon the House another course was calculated to injure the cause of the distillers rather than otherwise. Mr. MACANDREW said he believed if a Select Committee was appointed satisfactory evidence would be adduced that if the Government proposal were given effect to, great injury and great pecuniary loss would result to individuals who had invested their all in this industry upon the strength of the hona fides of the Distillation Act of 1868. The petition he presented to the House the other day alleged, and he believed the fact would be proved, that in the Dunedin distillery £60,000 had been and was at this moment invested. He believed it could be also 1 proved that no adequate return had hitherto been derived from that investment. Not only so, but if the proposal before the House were carried out a positive loss would result to the company, and he presumed the same would apply to the Auckland distillery. He would read the following extract from a letter that accompanied the petition which would show the case exactly : —" In our petition we have not mentioned the subject of compensation, but we can tell you we will be glad to shut up the concern and accept your compensation. We fully authorise, you to say so. There are only one or two facts to wliich we beg your attention, viz., that the stock of spirits now in hand, and which will last over two years, cost us 6s. per gallon, as our books will show. Our selling price for wholesale quantities is 75., leaving a margin of Is. per gallon, out of which travelling expenses and bad debts have to be deducted. Thus, if Is. is added to the duty of 1875, as proposed, we will be left with stock to be sold at an absolute loss. " It will take at least three years before we can possibly expect to ' be in a position to stand an increase of duty, and then it would require to be a very gradually increasing scale ; unless this is done the business must be abandoned to a certainty." He was sure if the matter was gone into as it ought to be, in fairness, the House would not consent to perpetrating an injustice on persons who had invested largely in this undertaking. The mistake that had been made was in refusing to fix the time when this differential duty should be modified. Had that been fixed at the time the Act was framed, at less than ten years, no distillery would have been started now. In fact, if he remembered, rightly, ten years was considered to be the necessary time; and he had based the resolution of which he had given notice • upon that assumption. It seemed to be a popular fallacy to suppose that distilleries were very paying businesses—that fortunes were being made by them : yet the fact appeared to be quite otherwise. If tha facts were to be brought out calmly and dispassionately, the matter should be referred to the select committee at once. He could not see the object of referring it to the committee after going into committee of Wayß and Means. He hoped the Government would take a common sense view of the matter. Mr. J. L. GILLIES pointed out that if the House refused to go into Committee of Ways and Means, the effect would be to negative the Government proposal, which could not then be brought on again this session. The proper way out of the difficulty would be to go into committee, report progress immediately, and ask leave to sit again, and the motion for the appointment of a select committee to consider the matter could be carried after the committee had reported. The SPEAKER inclined to the opinion that if the amendment were carried, the substance of the Government resolution would be so destroyed that it would not be competent for the Government to bring the subject on again this session. Probably the member for the Lakes did not intend that. After some remarks by Messrs. Bdckland and Shbphaud, Mr. Pykb withdrew his amendment. Mr. REYNOLDS, in moving the resolution standing in his name, said the Distillation Act was passed in 1868, and in November of the same year application was made for a license by the Dunedin Distillery Company. A license was granted to them on November 24. They accepted their license knowing perfectly well that the Government of the day had not made up their minds, in the event of an alteration in the excise duty, to grant an equivalent alteration in the duty on imported spirits. It was some time before any further communication was received—on November 27, 1872, when they asked for permission to make some extensive alterations in their buildings. They received on January 3, 1873, a reply through the Collector of Customs at Dunedin, and, notwithstanding *the notice contained in that reply, the Dunedin Distillory Coy. went on expending very large sums of money, after being told distinctly that the Government had no objections to the alterations, but that they must bear in mind that they must not understand that compensation would be granted in case it was thought advisable at any future time to recommend to Parliament that the duty should be increased. (Hear.) The-same intimation was repeated on a subsequent occasion. The Auckland Distillery Company was placed in a little different position. The intimation to the Dunedin Company was] simply that

in the event of the Government reducing the duty on imported spirits, there would not be' an equivalent reduction on. colonially manufactured spirits ; but in the case of the Auckland distillery the intimation went further. They applied for a license on May 19, IS7O, and on May 20, after being informed that their application had been granted, it was intimated : With reference to that part of the Act, however, •which fixes the rate of duty on spirits distilled within tho Colony, I am to inform yon that in the event of your undertaking the business of a distiller, and a reduction being made on the rate of import duty on spirits, you must not calculate upon a corresponding reduction in tho excise duty, as the Government, whatever rate may hereafter be fixed on for the Customs duty, will not be prepared to recommend to tho Legislature that the excise duty should be lower than it is at present, whilst it may be found necessary to increase it. The Auckland Company accepted their license with that letter in their possession. He did not show this to prejudice the company in any. way, but because so much had been said in the Press and outside the House about the unfairness of the proposal, and the injury that would be done the company by the Government, he thought it right to call special attention to the real facts of the case. (Hear.) After that intimation had been sent to them, the companies preferred to be guided by the Distillation Act rather than by the opinion of the Government. That was the position of the matter as between the Government and the companies. He now came to the question of revenue, and he had taken considerable trouble to make out a correct return of what grain, sugar, and molasses had been consumed in the process of distillation, and how many gallons of spirits had been manufactured from the commencement of the Act up to the present time ; and further, a return showing the loss to the revenue, and what the Colony was actually paying as a bonus for every bushel of barley consumed in distilling. If the question was referred to a Select Committee to consider, the claims of the persons who held licenses under the Act, the whole return would be laid before them. In the meantime, he woidd just give a short outline of it. The quantity of spirits distilled from the commencement of the operations of the two distilleries in the Colony up to the 31st of March last was 294,460 gallons from all sources, and from grain alone 268,689 gallons. The amount of grain used in the manufacture of those spirits was 134,966 bushels. The loss to the revenue from the distillation from grain amounted to £80,606 145., which showed that on every bushel consumed by the distilleries the Colony had to pay a bonus of a little over lis. 11 Jd. (hear), or a differential duty between imported and colonially manufactured spirits of nearly 2s. per gallon. It had been argued that this was a Native industry. That was true, but it was very questionable to what extent the object for which the Bill was passed had been carried out. He had taken the trouble to ascertain how many hands were employed in the two distilleries, and found that the Auckland employed five, and the Dunedin one twenty-three, or twenty-eight in all. Of course it was stated that employment was given to a large number of people in the production of grain to be used in the distilleries. But, as had been stated, a large proportion of the grain consumed had been imported—it was not all grown in the Colony. Of course the department was not in a position to know what proportion had been imported, and what was the produce of the Colony. The loss to the revenue on molasses amounted to £6787 45.; on sugar, £490 25.; and from beer, £456 ; making a total of £7731 6s. But there had to be deducted the Id. duty paid on 358,8591b5. of sugar used—£l49s 4s. lid.—leaving the actual loss to the revenue on sugar, molasses, &c'., £6236 lis., which added to the £80,606 14s. loss on grain, made a total loss to the revenue since the commencement of distillation up to March 31 last, of £86,842 15s. Id. He had another statement of what had been lost to the revenue during the year 1873, on Colonially manufactured spirits. 69,165 gallons at 6s. differential duty amounted to £20,749 10s. less the duty on sugar and molasses—27,734lbs. at Id. or £lls lis. 2d.—made a total loss during the year of £20,633 19s. lOd. It would be borne in rnindj that at the first starting of the distilleries there was very little spirit manufactured for consumption, therefore for some time there was little or no loss to the revenue. But it had gone on increasing gradually. He had a statement made up yesterday for the quarter ending June 30 last. . During the quarter 22,529 gallons were manufactured, and the loss to the revenue, £6758 145., equal to £27,034 16s. per annum. The longer these distilleries enjoyed the advantages of the Act the greater would be the loss to the revenue. (Hear.) Although a mere guess, he believed the loss during the present year might possibly reach somewhere about £50,000 ; perhaps next year it would come up to £75,000, until by and bye the Custom's revenue would be swept away ; as for a considerable time thedistillery at Auckland had manufactured rum ; he believed gin and brandy were being manufactured. He thought it right to place these facts and figures before the committee—(hear) —at the same time there was no intention or desire on the part of the Government to oppress the distillers. He thought it right that their claims, such as they might be—whether light or wrong he did not Bay —should be referred to a Select Committee, who would report to the House when the whole matter was being considered. - Mr. SHEEHAN complained that the Commissioner of Customs had not put the matter in a fair way. The mistake was in protecting spirits at all; a more undesirable article could imagined. (Hear.) He was one not be of those who, instead of giving facilities to the manufacturerof spirits, would place obstacles in the way. What was the result ? That the distilleries, according to all accounts, ware manufacturing brandy, gin—almost every variety of article. A protectionist's paradise was almost approached. It ought to be a warning to all extreme protectionists, and for many years would be used by free traders. The House would commit "a grave mistake if it did not at once take steps to ascertain the amount of compensation, and put an end to colonial distillation. Mr. LUCKIE thought this was a revenue question of no Bmall importance, and should support the proposition. Mr. McGLASHAN said that to stop distillation altogether would be an absurdity, inasmuch as it had done a great deal to prevent illicit distilling. If they stopped distillation they must stop importation ; if distillers made a good article, they could always make a profit. The Dunedin Distillery was now producing genuine spirit, and others could do so. Mr. REID failed to see what advantage would be gained by the appointment of the committee, if they reported progress. It was the baneful effects of endeavoring to establish industries under a system of protection, that they had to consider the question under the aspect it now presented. "■ Mr. READER WOOD thought that this first experiment to support a local industry at the expense of the public was a failure. The facts and figures laid before the committee wore quite indicative that the course proposed was the one to be agreed to ; the revenue was Buffering severely, and they must adopt the Government proposal with regard to compensation. They could alter the laws of 1868— (hear, hear) —if they wished. There was nothing to prevent them doing that. There was no intention to increase the duties in a day, and it would be a mistake to refer the question of compensation to a Select Committee. Mr. TOLMIE thought the petitions already presented should he heard. [The petition of the New Zealand Distillery Company, and another petition from Otago on the Bubjeot of distilleries, were then read.] Mr. REYNOLDS said the Dunedin Distillery Company Beemedto consider they would consume 70,000 bushels a year, which would entail a loss to the revenue of £42,000. Mr., MURRAY Baid the facts were very deceptive. Mr. REYNOLDS : I must demur to that My facts are correct. Mr. SWANSON did not believe in monopoly, and thought there' should be a fair start and no favor for all. As for the fanner question, he had very great doubt whether the fanners would get the same price for thenbarley. Mr. MACANDREW had no intention by his amendment to give a monopoly, but to give effect to the views of the Government. He

would move the first part of the amendment if desired. Mr. STAFFORD recognised that there was very great difficulty in this question. He had no confidence in the figures of the Commissioner of Customs, but he knew that the introduction of licensed distilleries had done a great deal to put an end to the practice of illicit distillation. At one time when he was in office no less than forty-one illicit stills were actually discovered in the Province, not to speak of those which had been unknown. He could not forget that there was an implied engagement with certain persons to establish distilleries, and he should not like to see that implied engagement summarily treated. Mr. READER WOOD thought it would be clear that it was far better to leave the matter in the hands of the new Parliament, which would have succeeded them by the year 1877. He had already said that the proposals of the Government seemed very fair, and the committee would, he thought, see that the amendment was not an open one, but that the resolution of the Government should be shelved. A motion for reporting progress was put with the following result : Ayes, 25 :—Messrs, Bradshaw, J. C. Brown, Bunny, Cuthbertson, Fitzherbert, Gibbs, J. L. Gillies, Harrison, Inglis, W. Kelly, May, McGillivray, Mervyn, Murray, O'Neill, Pyke, Reid, Sheehan, Stafford, Steward, Swanson, Taiaroa, Tribe. Tellers—Macandrew, Thomson. Noes, 36 :—Messrs. Andrew, Atkinson, Bell, Bluett, Brandon, Bryce, Carrington, Curtis, Fox, Hunter, Jackson, Katene, Luckie, McG-lashan, Montgomery, O'Conor, Ormond, O'Rorke, C. Parker, G. B. Parker, Pearce, Reynolds, Richardson, Richmond, J. Shephard, T. L. Shepherd, Studholme, Vogel, Wales, Webb, Williams, Williamson, Wilson, Wood. Tellers—T. Kelly, Reeves. After some remarks from Major Atkinson and Sir Cracroft Wilson, the resolution was passed, and reported to the House. POST OFFICE SAVINGS BxINK. The House went into committee oh this Bill, which was passed without amendment. STATE FORESTS CONSERVATION BILL. ' Mr. SHEEHAN would like to suggest the desirability of postponing the debate, until the Premier's speech on the Bill should be in the hands of members. The debate was adjourned until Tuesday. GOVERNMENT INSURANCE ANNUITIES BILL. Mr. "VOGEL said the Bill proposed to consolidate the laws regulating the Government Insurance and Annuities Office. At present there were two Bills, and it would be very desirable to consolidate and improve them, which was aimed at in the Bill, as indicated by the several amendments it contained. Clauses 42, 43, and 44, provided for a thoroughly independent actuarial valuation after every five years.. It was proposed to secure the services of a good actuary from England, not permanently, nor as an officer of the Department, but for such period as might be deemed necessary to make valuation. He thought the House would be disposed to pass the Bill. The rates in New Zealand were lower than the rates fixed in other offices, and the profits were considerable ; it had been proposed further to lower the rates, but the Colony did not wish to make profits out of the institution. At the time of the first starting of the institution there was no insurance company which could effect a policy without reference to England or Australia ; now the effectof competition was seen in theGovemrnent and private officesflourishingmore andmore, side by side. At present there was no engagement to give the policy holders profits, but to do so would no doubt increase the business. The course the Government would adopt was to see what the profits were, and then give them up as far as was advisable, part being kept as a reserved sum. There were three ways in which the profits could be divided, viz. : in cash payments, additions to policies, and [annual premiums. It was not desirable to use an institution of which New Zealand might well be proud as a source of revenue, and he hoped no objections would be made on the ground of interference with private institutions. He would move the second reading. Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. JUSTICES OP THE PEACE ACT AMENDMENT BILL, On the motion of Mr. O'Rorke, the Order of the Day for this Bill and for the Offences Against the Person Amendment Bill were made Orders of the day for Tuesday. CIVIL SERVICE ACTS AMENDMENT. The House went into committee on this Bill. Clause 2 was amended by the addition of the words " The repeal of the 19th section of the said Act shall not affect any persons transferred from the Provincial Civil Service to the Colonial Civil Service before the passing of the said Amendment Act," Messrs. Wood and Swanson strongly opposing, and Mr. Vogel supporting. Mr. READER WOOD moved that in clause 10 the lines giving discretionary power to the Governor to grant pensions in excess of £9OOO be struck out. A division was called for with the following result:— Ayes, 28 ; noes, 17. Majority for the ayes, 11. On the motion of Mr. Brandon, progress was reported and leave obtained to sit again. The House adjourned at 1 a.m.