PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Times, Volume XXIX, Issue 4157, 17 July 1874, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, July 10. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 o’clock. PAPERS. The Hon. Dr. Pollen laid on the table papers relating to the Conservation of Forests. SEAL ESTATE DESCENT. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE said this was a Bill which had generally mot with the support of hon. members, but the measures introduced from time to time, relating to intestacy, had broken down because they could not see their way clear to give effect to their intentions, and he did not intend to discuss the present Bill in committee of the Council, but to refer it to a select committee. The law affecting the descent of real property was not known as well hero as in England, and the intentions of the holders were frequently thwarted. The Hon. Captain FRASER said that the Bill was such that if a man made a will under it his testament would fall to the ground. It was utterly impossible that a select committee could make the measure approvable. The Hon. Mr. MANTELL had been assured the measure was not intended to interfere with the disposal of property by will, but simply to provide for the distribution of real property of those who died intestate. But as the hon. mover had expressed his wish to refer it to a select committee, of wliich he (Mr. Mantell) was one, ha would there be better able to point out the objections he had to it. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN assumed that there would be no objection to the Bill going before a select committee, as in its present shape it would require some amendments. One objection that was made was, that lands formerly devised by will were not protected from the operations of the present Bill. Under clause 4, again, a husband might possibly be deprived of his life interest in the property of his wife. No doubt the labors of the committee would be able to produce such a Bill as would remedy the many difficulties now arising on the question. The Hon. Mr. STOKES said he would not give any implied support to the Bill. If it were necessary to avoid the evils that would result from any material change , in the law, he would he in a position to vote against the Bill on its third reading. The Hon. Mr. RANDALL JOHNSTON thought it was desirable that an amendment of the present law should be made, and he would certainly support anything that would lead to that result. The Hon., Dr. MENZIES thought the Bill would interfere with property that had been already devised by will. The main question was, whether to reduce real property to the position of personal property, and for this reason he thought such a Bill as the present should be introduced by the Government, with the aid and assistance of the Attorney-Central, as it involved nice points of law. Perhaps, however, it was best to refer it to a select committee, and then the opinion of the AttorneyGeneral as to the best course to be pursued. The Hon. Mr. WATERHOUSE, in reply, said the Bill did not in any way interfere with the power of disposing by will of land of which the owners might wish to dispose, but simply to provide for cases of intestacy. He had already stated his intention to move for its reference to a select committee. The Bill was then read a second time, and referred to a select committee, to consist of the Hon. Mr. R. Hart, the Hon. Mr. R, Johnston, the Hon. Mr. Acland, the Hon. Mr. Mantell, and the Hon. Mr. Stokes. The Hon. Dr. POLLEN said he had found there was a greater number of amendments necessary in the Bill than he had at first thought, and he wished to move that it be made an Order of the Day for to-day (Friday). The Bill was ordered to be committed next day. THIRD HEADINGS. The Offences against the Person Act Amendment, and Justices of the Peace Act Amendment Bills, were read a third time and passed. On the motion of the Hon. Dr. POLLEN, the Council adjourned at half-past two until the usual hour on Friday. HOUSE OF. REPRESENTATIVES. Thuksdat, Jolt 16. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two o’clock. WASTE LANDS OP OTAGO. Mr. MAC ANDREW gave notice of motion tor leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Otago Waste, Lands Act. QUESTIONS OP PROCEDUBE. Mr. BRADSHAW referred to the Taranaki Waste Lands Amendment Bill, the second reading of which was agreed to last evening, and said in reference to the statement then made that the Bill had been circulated, that he found on enquiry that only fifty copies had been distributed. He brought the matter under the notice of the House because Bills of great moment might be brought before it, and the House be placed in the same position as it had been in regard to the Bill he was referring to. Mr. T. L. SHEPHERD wished to have the Speaker’s ruling upon a point connected with the Bill introduced by the member for Egmont. That hon, member then merely read the title of the Bill and brought up a blank piece of paper. He.had been studying May, and found it there laid down that the Bill must be in full when brought up for the first reading. He knew the practice for many years past, since the Speaker had occupied the chair, had been to permit a Bill to be brought up in blank, and printed afterwards. He had been misled in reference to the Bill he had himself produced, and had been obliged to make such alterations in it before it could be printed as to necessitate its withdrawal. The SPEAKER said that he had also been misled in reference to the statement that the Taranaki Bill had been circulated. He had found it necessary to give directions that no Bill whatever should be circulated unless it had been first seen by the Clerk and himself, so that they might know that it was the same Bill that had been presented to the House. With regard to what had fallen from the member for the Dunstan, the practice referred to had existed ever since he had had the honor of occupying the chair; and it existed here and in the Imperial Parliament. As to what the hon. member had said in reference to the Bill he had himself introduced, there was no ruling compelling him to withdraw it. Ho was at liberty to proceed with the Bill, if ho desired to do so. Mr. SHEPHERD observed that because he had obtained the assistance of the Superintendent of Otago and the hon. member for the Taieri in preparing the Bill, it was not for the Speaker to question the Bill, so long as it was within the terms on which he had obtained leave to introduce the Bill. If he did say it only had one clause he had no recollection of it. (Oh.) He said it was a short Bill, and so it was. It was on one side of foolscap. The Superintendent of Otago and the member for the Taieri were anxious that he (Mr. Shepherd) should read this Bill a second time ; but in consequence of the Speaker’s ruling, they had unanimously agreed to abandon the Bill so as to enable the member for Fort Chalmers to give notice of a fresh Bill, to prevent its being made that “ shocking example” of it was likely to be, in consequence of the ruling of the Speaker, given in his Chambers to-day. He only wished a consistent ruling for the guidance of members introducing Bills. The SPEAKER thought the hon. member would at once see that the circumstance, the story of which he had given to the House, was rather different to that which he represented to him that morning. The hon. member now stated that he had obtained the assistance of the Superintendent of the Province of Otago in preparing the Bill; if that were so, ho (the Speaker) was in error in supposing that the Bill was a different Bill from that proposed to bo introduced by himself. Mr. SHEPHERD; It was not another Bill. (Loud cries of “ chair.”) The SPEAKER would say at once if the hon. member was in a position to say that the Bill, of which the member for Port. Chalmers

had given notice of that day, was the same Bill as he had himself proposed, and that in the preparation of it he had had the assistance of the Superintendent of Otago, it was quite unnecessary for Mr. Macandrew to go on with the notice he had given. The question of fact, the representation of which the member for the Dunstan had just made to the House, was entirely different to that made on the morning when he (the Speaker) understood that the Bill of which the Superintendent of Otago had given notice was the Bill which the Provincial Council of Otago authorised the Provincial Government to bring to the Assembly, and the same Bill to which the member for Waikouaiti referred in the discussion the other day. If the Superintendent of Otago, having been requested by the member for Dunstan, had given him his assistance in preparing the Bill, would the hon. member say that it was the one the member for Dunstan prepared. (Laughter.) Mr. MACANDREW did not think the diamission would tend to help the case. All he ’could say was that he would have only been too happy if the Bill had been taken up by the member for the Dunstan, and read a second time now; hut he understood the Speaker, on being conferred with, 'to rule that the BilFbf which he (Mr. Macandrew) had givonnotice, was a different one altogether from that introduced by the member for Dunstan ; otherwise he would have been glad if a week could have been saved. Major ATKINSON explained that all the copies of the Taranaki Bill he had, had been circulated ; and others would he distributed as soon as received. ACOUSTIC PROPERTIES OP THE HALL. Mr. MERVYN inquired what remedy could be obtained to improve the present condition of tilings. He did not know whether it arose from the way in which the seats were placed, or that members spoke with their hacks to those who listened; but the fact remained that half the observations made in the House could not be heard. Members often left their places because they were unable to hOar what was going on. He wanted to know whether a remedy would be applied; or with whom providing a remedy rested. The SPEAKER was afraid he could not see his way to making any improvement. Every effort had been made by the Government in conjunction with himself to improve the acoustic properties of the room. There was no doubt it was a very difficult thing to secure good hearing; but he was afraid there was nothing for it but for members to speak louder. He asked a great many members if the remarks he was called upon to make were heard, and was assured they were; and he also understood from the reporters that he was audible to them. He spoke loudly ; and the same thing would have to he done by others. Mr. R. WOOD thought it would be better if the plan of the House of Commons of having seats on each side of the House, and no cross benches, were adopted, in which case the speaker would "certainly face the larger portion of his audience, which he did not now, and instead of speaking to the hades of twenty gentlemen speak in the faces of about forty. Mr. T. B. GILLIES suggested the Speaker should exercise his authority a little more sharply, and prevent the hubbub of conversation that went on when a member was speaking. (Hear.) The SPEAKER was much obliged to the hon. member for Auckland City West for the suggestion, and with the approval of the House would endeavor as much as he could to prevent what had been complained of. Mr. G. B. PARKER thought if the wires hung across the hall were lowered an improvement would he effected. NGAKAWHAU-WESTPORT RAILWAY.’ Mr. CURTIS asked, —“ When is it probable that the coal railway from Ngakawhau to Westport will he completed and open for traffic.” The importance of developing our coal mines was a sufficient reason for calling the attention of the Government to the matter, but, apart from that, there were special reasons why some official intimation should be given upon which the public should lean as to when this railway was likely to he opened for traffic. Leases on what was admitted to be one of the most important coalfields in the Colony, that at Mount Eochfort, had been granted to various persons on the express condition that the coals they raised should be transported on Government railways when completed. In order that the coals should be brought on the Government lines, and in order that the conditions of the leases should be fulfilled, it was necessary that branch railways should be made by these companies from the ground they leased to the terminus of the Government line. In order to know by what time to have contracts now under consideration completed, and to fulfil the conditions of their leases, these parties were anxious to learn when the main railway was likely to be opened for the purposes of the coal trade. He hoped some definite information would be given of the progress of the work. Mr. RICHARDSON replied that the contract for the first section of the line, in which the heaviest part of the work was, was at present advertised for public tender, and the surveys for the remainder of the line were a long way forward. The necessary rolling stock and permanent material had long since been ordered from England, and advices had been received that it was on its way out. With regard to the date on which the line would be opened, he would need to take a little time before he could give a reply, which he would make in the course of a few days. NATIVE LAND ACT. Mr. SHEEHAN asked,—“ AVhether the Government havereceivedfromthe Native Land Court Judges any report upon the provisions and effect of working The Native Land Act, 1873, and if so, whether they will lay such report upon the table.” Mr. VOGEL replied that the Government had received communications and criticisms on the Bill from the various Judges, which they were taking advantage of in preparing the measure to be submitted to the House, hut the Government did not propose to have them laid upon the table. ROAD BETWEEN POVERTY BAY AND OPOTIKI. Mr. W. KELLY asked, —“What has been the cause of delay in constructing the line of road between Poverty Bay and Opotiki ; and when it is intended to have the road open for Mr. RICHARDSON (who was inaudible in the gallery) was understood to say that there had been some difficulty with the contractors, but he hoped the present contractors would come to an arrangement and get the work completed satisfactorily.. . RAILWAY FROM DUNEDIN TO CLYDE. Mr. J. L. GILLIES asked,—“lf it is the intention of the Government to make provision in any schedule of railways to bo brought in this session for the survey and construction of the central trunk line of railway to connect Clyde and Dunedin.” He was quite aware that if he had waited for the public works statement ho would have obtained the information asked for, but it had struck him as being just possible from the onerous character of tho duties that devolved on the Public Works Minister that tho claims of Otago for tho construction of the central trunk line might he overlooked, and he had therefore thought it well that the hon. gentleman's attention should ho called to tho claims of the Province in regard to the line in question. Mr. RICHARDSON could assure the hon. member for Waikouaiti that the claims of Otago had not escaped tho attention of tho Government, and ho thought there was little chance of their being allowed to do so. With regard to tho immediate question on the Order Paper, in tho course of a few days he would be able to give some information on the subject. RAILWAY FROM THE THAMES TO WAIKATO. Hr. O’NEILL asked the Premier, — “Whether tho Government have taken into consideration the advisability of railway from tho Thames to tho Waikato, in accordance -with tho views expressed by a deputation from tho inhabitants of the Thames and Waikato districts who waited upon tho Premier when on his last visit to Auckland.” Mr. VOGEL replied that the matter which was urged upon him with so much care by so influential a deputation as that which waited upon him was ono which necessarily required to bo submitted to the Government. The Government Jiad taken the matter into con-

sideration, and he was not aware that they had seen any reason to reconsider the opinion he (Mr. Vogel) generally expressed when he replied to the deputation. DISTRICT COURTS BILL. Mr. FOX asked, —“ AVhether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a District Courts Amendment Bill this Session.” The Bill of last session had been prepared ivith great care, and after a great deal of consideration. It was very popular out of doors, and very acceptable to the legal profession. The Bill was lost in another place. He had been assured by a person who ought to know the feelings of that other place that it was possible if the Bill were again submitted to the other House it might meet with a much more cordial reception. He suggested that it should be first sent to the Upper House. Mr. VOGEL replied that the main reason that decided the Government not to introduce the Bill this session was because they had a doubt whether it would meet with any different treatment from that which it received last year. It might be worth while considering, if the hon. gentleman had been correctly informed, whether it would be likely to pass the other House this session. His impression was rather to the contrary. The impression last year was, that the BUI was thrown out in the other branch of the Legislature because it might not be acceptable to the Supreme Court Judges. That impression was a mistaken one. In reply to inquiries which he made, the Chief Justice wrote (and the letter would be laid on the table shortly) in reference to the feelings of the Judges on the subject of the District Courts Bill. The letter, while refraining from expressing any opinion antagonistic to the Bill that had been thrown out, suggested that in face of the likelihood of the Supreme Court practice being altered next year, it would be inadvisable and inexpedient to bring in tho District Courts Bill during the present session. That argument had, no doubt, great force, iVfter that letter had been laid on the table he would be very happy to confer with the hon. member for Rangitikei on the subject. . MESSAGE. The Legislative Council forwarded for the consideration of the House, The Justices of the Peace Act Amendment Bill, and The Offences against, the Person Act, which had passed that body. The second reading of both Bills was fixed for to-morrow. BILLS. Leave was given to Mr. Sheehan to introduce a Bill to consolidate and amend the AVaste Land Laws of the Province of Auckland; to Mr. Carrington, to introduce The New Plymouth Exchanges Valuation Bill, and a Bill to authorise the disposal of AVaste Land within the Province of Taranaki. RETURN. Mr. SHEEHAN moved—“Eor a return shelving in detail the expenditure to 30th June last, of the sum of £60,000, devoted to roads and works North of Auckland by resolution of this House in 1871,; in continuation of previous returns.” Agreed to. POSTPONED MOTIONS. Mr. SHEEHAN allowed his motion, — “ That it is desirable that a readjustment of the representation of this House should be made, so as to take effect at the next general elections; and that the Government should take the question into consideration during the recess, with a view to the preparation of a properly matured measure, to be submitted to this House at its next session”—to stand over till AVednesday. Mr. AV. KELLY also allowed bis motion—- “ That all correspondence relative to the purchase or lease of Native lands on the East Coast between the Native Department and Laud Purchase Commissioners be laid on the table of this House. Also, that the correspondence between the District Land Purchase Commissioners and Native Department, if any, be laid upon the table”—to stand over till AVeduesday. SECOND READINGS. The AVellington Hospital Reserves Bill was read a second time. The Otago AVaste Lauda Act Amendment Bill was discharged. MARLBOROUGH WASTE LANDS. Mr. SEYMOUR, in moving thesecondreading of the Marlborough AVaste Lands Act Amendment Bill, said the land law of the Province was as old as 1867, since when its mines and minerals had been so developed as to make the provisions of the Act unsuitable to the present time. The object of the Bill was to provide for the development of the mineral wealth of the Province, and provide re; gulations for carrying it out. There were also provisions to enable the Province to let timbered land to sawmillers, under conditions, which repaid the Government for the timber by means of tithes, and it was proposed to do so under regulations which ensured the forests being cleared regularly, and to provide as much as possible against the destruction of the forests by fire. There were also provisions relating to the giving away of land for public works, thus amending those at present in force. It was proposed to give the right to put up the land by auction, and after the public had exercised their right to purchase, if it pleased them to do so, that the unsold part might be available for payment for public works. Second reading agreed to. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. CUTHBERTSON, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it was brought in to euro the inconvenience experienced by a great many people through not being able to register the births of their children before the six months thereafter had expired. The Bill extended the period to fourteen years, and it was further proposed to make the fee £l, instead of 10s. as at present—a provision that would commend itself to the House, because it would make the Bill a source of revenue rather than of expense. The Bill would be a very great boon to a large number of persons who, through no fault of their own, had not been able to register within the time named in the Act of 1858. The Bill had been carefully prepared, and he had been able to avail himself of legal assistance. Mr. J. E. BROWN said he had received letters from three registrars in differenta parts of his Province pointing out that it was desirable some alteration should bo .made. It was within bis knowledge that a great many persons in Canterbury were not registered. Owing to the way in which tho Act was carried out by the registrars it was impossible to induce people to come forward. For instance, some registrars had held that if application to register was made six months after birth the person so applying must pay a penalty of 10s., and after this money had been paid to registrar, the latter said they had no power to register, and retained the money, which was leading persons into a trap. Mr. REYNOLDS intimated that the Government, while they did not oppose the second reading, reserved tho right of proposing amendments in committee. The second reading was agreed to. Mr. MURRAY said there was no reason for this pension being given. They had large liabilities to meet, and were not justified in increasing tho public expenditure by such pensions. Mr. SHEEHAN trusted the motion would pass. Sir AYilliam Martin was a very good officer, and had done great service in connection with the Natives, and the interests of the Colony. Tho Government was very much to be praised for proposing this pension. The House went into committee to consider His Excellency’s message. Mr. GIBBS : AVhat is the present pension, with this addition. Mr. VOGEL : £SOO. Sir CRACROFT AVILSON had not heard any reasons from tho Government why this money should be voted ; be had good reason for voting against it, and should certainly do so. Mr. VOGEL said hon. members were entirely left to tho exercise of their own discretion. Sir William Martin resigned his office a long time ago on a small pension, and it was also in consideration of tho distinguished services he had rendered to the Colony in the way of attention to Native affairs, since his retirement, that tho Government proposed this increase to his pension. There was no claim on tho part of Sir William Martin himself. He was now very old and had lately left the Colony; the Government submitted the

proposal to the committee, and it was for them to decide. Mr. HEADER WOOD thought the Government was acting with great propriety in bringing forward this motion. Sir William Martin was the first Judge in the Colony, and had done great services, had given the most perfect satisfaction, and was known here and in the whole of Europe as a most clover scholar. A pension of some £330 was granted him on retirement, exceedingly inadequate as regarded his past services and former salary. After his retirement, the Chief Justice had received a much larger salary, and a large increase to his pension, and he (Mr. Wood) thought that even at so remote a period as the present, the country should recognise the great services of Sir William Martin as Chief Justice of the Colony. Mr. LXJCKIE pointed out that as they had just increased the pensions of the Supreme Court Judges, it would be an act of injustice if they did not agree to this clause referring to Sir W. Martin. Major ATKINSON thought a special Bill had, better be brought in recognising Sir W. Martin’s great scholarship, and eminent services in New Zealand ; if they agreed to the present proposal, he did not see how they could resist other applications, nor where they were to draw the line. There might be some difference of opinion as to the “great services," (hear, hear) ; he believed Sir William Martin had cost the country hundreds of thousands of pounds (hear, hear). He should feel it his duty to divide the committee on the question. Mr. CARRINGTON said the reason why he should support the proposal was that at the time of Sir William Martin’s retirement he was receiving a very small salary, and his duties were quite as great then as those of the Chief Justice now—(no, no) —and the Judges had had very considerables rises in their salaries since that time. Mr. VOGEL said that with respect to Sir W. Martin’s services he had certainly labored very hard—(hear, hear) —but whether or not these should be especially recognised was matter of opinion. He, himself, held a very strong opinion as to the inexpediency of the House making increases of this land, which might lead to claims of a similar character being made by others, but he did not think Judges were quite upon the ordinary footing. They held very distinct positions ; however much it might be competent for the Legislature to criticise their actions, they could not criticise the action of the Legislature—(oh)—and they were therefore to a certain extent powerless. In England it was held to be unconstitutional to promote a Judge ; it was supposed that when he had once taken his place on the Bench he was dead to all consideration of a political character, and therefore then - mouths were closed against coming and asking the House for increases in the manner in which some hon. members seemed to anticipate. It was a thing which emanated from the House ; and the question that must be asked was did the House consider it desirable. Mr. BUCKLAND would vote against the proposal, because of the bad precedent it set forth as to pensions already granted. Moreover, Sir William was one of a very small clique in the North which had done more to injure the Colony than anything else. He had been the life and soul of the dissensions between the Natives and Europeans, and always inclined the former to be inimical to the colonists. His services had not been valuable but injurious. They had been said to be equal to those of the present Chief Justice. He dissented from that. Twenty years ago the population was very small, and the Judges were not occupied nearly so much as they are now. Mr. VOGEL: It seems to be so evident that the opinion of the House is against this, and it is made so entirely without the interference of Sir William Martin, that I shall be prepared to withdraw it; but as it would be disrespectful to His Excellency to move that you, Sir, do leave the chair, since the committee is discussing a message, I shall move that you ask leave to sit again. The Chairman having reported progress, leave was given to sit again, and the proposal withdrawn; and the Chairman having again reported the Bill without amendments, it was read a third time and passed. CANTERBURY WASTE LANDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion that the Bill be committed, Mr. BUCKLAND said his information led him to believe that as soon as certain parties in Canterbury heard of this measure being introduced, they immediately got up petitions to the House against it, and he therefore wished the committal postponed till Wednesday next. He would move an amendment to that effect. Mr. REEVES said that having taken charge of the Bill for the hon. member for Avon, who was detained in Canterbury attending to his Provincial duties, he could not assent to the amendment, although he knew that the petitions referred to were being signed in Christchurch. The Bill had been brought in after the concurrence of the Provincial Council by a large majority, and he saw no just reason for delaying the progress of the Bill for any expression of public opinion in the form of a petition from Christchurch. He had presented a most extensively signed petition himself, and the hon. member was quite wrong in saying that any hastiness had been evident in the matter, for a week had been given to print and circulate a Bill of three clauses only. The amendment was lost on the voices, and the House having gone into committee on the Bill, it was reported -without amendment, read a third time, and passed. WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS. Mr. EITZHEBBERT explained that a Bill had been passed in 1871, called the Wellington Special Settlements Act, in two parts, by which land might be offered under deferred payments, and by which also the Superintendent of the Province was authorised to proclaim certain districts, but there was no power given him to withdraw such proclamation when made. Some of these proclamations having been made, it was now found that some of the lands so defined had not been taken np, and the object of the Bill was to allow the Superintendent to withdraw any land from the operation of the first part of the Act, and to re-proclaim other parts. Mr. MERVYN suggested that the Bill should go before the Waste Lands Committee. Mr. EITZHERBERT : I do not think there is any necessity. The SPEAKER : It is not, in my opinion, necessary to refer the Bill to the Select Committee. Bill read a second time, and ordered to bo committed next day. The House adjourned at twenty minutes to five o’clock. •