GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEW ZEALAND. From the New Zealander, July 1.] HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, JUNE 29. NEW ZELAND COMPANY'S DEBT.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 941, 9 August 1854, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEW ZEALAND. From the New Zealander, July I.] HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. THURSDAY, JUNE 29. NEW ZELAND COMPANY'S DEBT.

Mr. E. G. Wakepield's motion lor a Select Committee to,enquire " whether or Dot In justice the Province* of ''Auckland ought to be at once relieved, frpra beariug any portion of the New Zealand Company's Deb,t," n stood .first oa the notice paper. , u . , V^ M , i A petition , fropj Auckland *et|brs jelating to ilie Company's, Dfijbt, having, ' on the naotfon^of Mr.,O*Neill» been read, Mr. W/kefield — When rising to support {he motion before the house, it behoves, me t o offer to them some explanation^ ofc my^ own osition with respect to' it. I owe such an'ex-*

planation to the Southern members in particular. I believe that they will a!! a^ree with me when I say, that from the moment of our arrival here, wo have heard strong expressions of opinion and feeling with respect to the share of this Province in the burthen of the Company's debt. But all this took place in private. Although the house has now been sitting for a long while, and the Northern members have had plenty of opportunities of bringing the subject before us, they have maintained silence, with the single exception of a question which the honourable member (Mr. Porter) put to my honourable and learned' friend! (Mr. Hart), when he moved for a select committee on the general subject of the Company's debt, and when my honourable friend replied, that' he thought the two subjects ought to be considered separately. With that one exception, every Auckland member has held his tongue, though we all knew that they had derided opinions and warm feelings to express^ From that remarkable fact I draw this inference, — that ' as the subject is one * relating to the special interests of their constituents, is a question of money between the North and the South, they felt a natural reluctance, arising from delicacy, to be the first to moot the question. I imagined, also, that perhaps they hoped thai some member from the South, or even the Government, might be disposed to spare them the uncomfortableness of being the first to r.sk the attention of the house to the claim of their Province upon the justice of the others. Seeing or supposiug that, I reflected that amongst the Southern members I stood alone, in having long ago publicly declared opinions in favour of the Northern claim ; that, even so long ago as in England, when the Constitution Act was before Parliament, I pointed out to the Directors of the New Zealand Company the special injustice and folly of including Auckland in the arrangement then proposed for ' fixing a debt upon the Colony ; and that, months ago, at a publi^meeting of the electors of Wellington Province, I had pledged myself to support any member from the North who should submit the Auckland claim for justice to this house. Recollecting all that, and seeing the hesitation of the Auckland members, I thought that it might be agreeable (o them, and would not be unbecoming in me, if 1 were the first to broach this matter here, thereby thawing the frozen words by which they longed to give expression to their sentiments, (Cheers.) I therefore resolved to give a notice of motion on the subject ; and that step was taken by me without consulting any of them, on my own single responsibility ; because I thought that the first step in this matter, if taken by a'Southern member, ought to be altogether his own, and not the result of concert with the Northern members. (Hear, hear.) I wished, sir, to offer this explanation, though more briefly, to the whole house, when giving notice of my motion, anil when you thought that such an explanation then would be out of order. An opportunity has been afforded to me of giving it to the Northern members, collectively, out of doors. At the close of it, I acknowledged that I might, perhaps, have done wrong in, as it were, taking the'iaitiatiou of this question out of their hands f( into which I proposed to surrender it, if they should so please, tendering to these gentlemen at the same time such bumble service as I might.be able to render them, by supporting any proposal for enquiry brought forward by themselves. They did me the honor to request that I would pro- , ceed (cheers), as I will now dp. The task which' I have undertaken presents a singular difficulty. It is too easy, (Cheers from Auckland members.) ' I am at a loss to conceive what opponents of this enquiry will be able to say against it. ' I have to imagine objections to it ; and this I will ' do presently, placing those objections as' fairly " before the bouse as if they were my own. But first let me allude to another subject, in which, indeed is to be found the groundwork of^my' whole case, — I mean the his'.ory of the relations between the New Zealand Company and this part of the colony. Nobody can be better acquainted with these relations than myself. They may be described by a single word. They"consisted, down to 1846, and even "later, of an incessant state of war, (Hear, hear.) £rora the very beginning of settlement at' Auckland, it was regarded by the Company as a rival and formidable enemy of their own settlements in the a South. I will not say that the Auckland ' settlers looked on the Company's settlements as enemies, whose success was incompatible with the success of their own; but they were, speaking ' generally, in close alliance with the Government ; and the Government", representing the Colonial Office, which hated the Company, systematically endeavoured to destroy the Southern settlement!. , In those endeavours, the' Auckland settlers only partook through their alliance with the Government; but there can be no doubt about the determined hostility of the Government towards the Company's settlements. Neither is there any ', doubt that the Company, always supposing that it fought in defence of its own settlements, did all that it could, not merely to impede, but tour;- „ root the Auckland settlement. (Heir, hear.)' T was myself a party to these acts of the Company. . I speak here as a witness, «ad declare in the presence of this Assembly, that it was a deliberate „ design of the Company to stop settlement in the North (loud cries of " hear ") lest it should prove injurious to settlements in the South by means of the Northern alliance with the Government. The proposed Committet will beable / to ascertain the facts from persons now We '"4" 4 who are almost as well acquainted with them as , myself. That will probably be considered an important part of their enquiry (Hear, hear.) 'l will now take up the supposed objections to my motion, all of which consist of retsons why Auckland ought to bear an equal' portion of this debt to the Company.' The first is an allegation that the Company brought out emigrants to the South, ' * who came here and benefited Auckland (cries of "oh") ; wherefore ' Auckland is indebted to the Company, and ought to bear the burden which has been imposed upon her.' I ( would' allow ' to that objection all the weight that it can deserve ; but with that disposition, I should still, regard it as no reason at all, but only the appearance of one, put on when thece was nothing to be said. (Hear, hear.) The ' second objectioa\ . which I can imagine is, that the Company made, New Zealand * known and popular at home, whereby Auckland profited. (Cries of " oh.") "But I answer that the Company did! so'for its I] own purposes, and that the supposed reason' is utterly* futile. The third objection i's — and,'~in- % deed „-I have heard this objection seriously urged —that the* Company struggled hard to obtain

free institutions of government for all New Zealaud; that Auckland has reaped her share of the results of those efforts ; and that she ought not, to grumble at bavin* to share in compensating tht Company forila losses. Let ns admit, as I muit assert, that the Company did incur loss through its war with the Colonial Office in pursuit of free government for New Zealand : the direction of the company, was at that time in the hands of high-minded men, politicians and colonial reformers, rather than joint-stock holders ; and they deserve credit for their endeavours to relieve New Zealand from a penal colony despotism ; but that fact appears to me altogether wide of the present mark, totally inapplicable to the present question. (Hear, hear.) As a fourth objection, I have heard it said, that the South was robhed for" the benefit of the North: that Southern money was wrongfully taken away, to be spent here. The mere assertion affords, no reason Lt making the North bear a portion of this debt ; bat if the fact was so, if a clear case of robbery cao be made out, I am sure the people of v Auckland and their' representatives will be the first to say that this is, a proper subject for enquiry. (cheers.) The petition which has been read, asks only for enquiry into the justice of the case, and I am confident that the petitioners will not wish to exclude anything which can be held to bear upon that question. (cheers.) But now I come to * a fifth and last objection, which is indeed, of ,a very serious character ? Jor if it could be be established, there would be no plea for enquiry ; I or .at any rate the only question roust. be ; what restitution should be made by the North to the Sooth.' It is alleged that the Company purchased fifty thousand acres of land in this Province, and gave up to Auckland, this its own property, which is now worth £300,000. If the Company really had. abandoned to Auckland for nothing such a property, the fact would not only dispose of the present question, but a much larger one. In ' that case, the recent speeches of my lion.' and learned friends (Mr. Hart and Mr. Sewell) would go for nothing. If the Company really had given up such property to the colony, there would be a balance against us of about £30,000, over and above the present debt. I first heard the fact stated by an bon. member of this house (Mr. Revans) and by another hon. gentleman (Mr. Fitzherbert) who holds in the Province' of Wellington the same position as that of my hon. friend (Mr. Fitzgerald) in the Geneneral Government. If 1 am not mistaken, the hon. member (Mr. Revans) said that, in justice, Auckland ought to bear a larger portion of the debt than the Southern Provinces. The Provincial Secretary .spoke, indeed, of the fact hypothetically, saying that if it were true, the claim of Auckland to exemption would be absurd ; but he showed that be believed it to be true, by going on to accuse me of ignoring the fact in order to curry favour with the Auckland members of this house ; tbough,.to be sure he did so at a time when, having* already spoken at the meeting, I waa disabled from replying to him. (Laughter and cheers.) "Well, this calumny against n,e, spoken at a public meeting by the leader of the Wellington Government when I was unaMe to deny it, was circulated throughout the colony ; and I have borne till now, without noticing it, the imputation that, not a regard for justice and bound policy, brut merely personal objects, swayed me fn promising to assist Auckland jn claiming justice from the South. (Cheers.) That imputation shows that the hon. gentlemen who made it believe that Anckland is indebted to the South. Whether or not it is so, is a most proper subject of enquiry. Did Auckland get the 50,000 acres? did the Company give them up ? are they worth £300,000? The Committee cannot well enquire into my motives ; but sure lam it will ascertain that the honorable gentleman who misrepresented them inferentially was totally mistaken in his fact ; that the story about these 50,000 acres is without a shadow of foundation. (Hear, hear, hear.) • I am sure the honorable member of this house (Mr. Revaas) fully believed in his own statement } but how he, an old colonist, much connected with the Company, and a vigilant observer of events interesting to bis settlement, could have got such a notion into his bead, is, to me, matter of v/onder. 1 might, perhaps, account for the other case, by reference to a certain disease which afflicts the other hon. gentleman — a sort of monomania, which impels him to seize every opportunity, and to make opportunities of differing from me. (Laughter and cheers.) It mutt have been in a fit of that disease that he got the idea that restitution from the North is due to the South. How the hon. member (Mr. Rerans) got it he may, perhaps, explain to the house. The real facts of the matter are these. During the long conflict between the Company aud tbe Colonial office, there was an occasional truce : and on one of these occasions, when Lord Stanley was Colonial Minister, a condition oi the truce ,insisted on by him, and assented to by the Company, was that they should colonize the Korth. The Company submitted to the condition as part cf certain terms of peace, but most re. luctantly, because they were unwilling to be mixed up with missionary and native influences in the North,, They submitted to pressure. They consented, but thought it wrong. So long as Lord Stanley was io power, he compelled them to proceed with the work. They sent an agent from the South to select here 5C.000- acres of land. He did select them, and reported that he had done so. Tbe obligation then devolved on them to •pend money in colonising. If they had proceeded they would have been bound to spend about £40,000, in taking out people to settle on the land. But before the lime could come for spending any vl that money, Lord' Stanley went out of power, and was succeeded by Lord Grey, an ally and frjend of the Company in their war with the Colonial Office, and even with the North of this colony ; and then they obtained relief from the condition which Lord Stanley had j.mposed upon them. They never thought any more about the 50,0Q0 acres ; and they never expended apy money on them, their utmost outlay on tbe North having been the expenses incurred by their agept in cQming to select the land, The whole story of Auckland's obligation to the company on this spore is nothing more nor anything ' efl than a great mare's nest. (Laughter and cheers.) It would not be worth a moTient's serious thought, it it had not been gravely urged by gentlemen in high positions, as. a reason why Auckland ought, in Justice, to bear more than her present, share of the Company's debt. (Cheers.) I will low dra* a comparison between Auckland and ether statements, as respects obligation to tbe Company. It will not be denied -that the witfemeot of WeU

lington, much as 6ome of its inhabitants now hate the Company, was founded by that tody. Nelson, unquestionably, was founded by the Company ; , and at a cost df "bow much money, trouble, and' peace of mind, occasioned by hostile influences existing in the North, I well know. (Hear,; hear.) New Plymouth, again., though not founded by the New .Zealand Company, was founded by ano.tber .Company, which obtained from the New Zetland Company both the land and the money , for carrying, on its operations. Then comes Canterbury. In Ihis case, the v Company found the land, and all the mouey for preliminary expenses incuired upon wharfs, barracks, and surveys, whereby the place was made fit for occupation by settlers. (" No, no," from Mr. Sewell.) I shall be sorry for .any controversy with my honourable friend on this subject, but his contradiction obliges me to remind him that Mr. Godley, the principal founder of the, Canterbury Settlement, was a Director of the New Zealand Company, and that until the itate of his health compelled him to leave England, he continued to be .a Director ef the Company for the, specific and express purpose of assisting that Company to supply the Canterbury Association, which he foimed and directed, in planting the Settlement. All this occurred after I had been severed from the Company by disagreement !with its .Directors. But I can bear witness as to facts, became notwithstanding , my differences with the Directors on many, subjects, including the arrangements which laid the foundation of. this debt, I joined them again, I assisted them, in conjunction with Mr. Godlry, in Uying the foundation of the Canterbury Settlement. My honourable friends from Otago will notshake their heads and deny that their Settlement was founded by the Company. .Admitting that the true father of Otago was its present bonoored Superintendent, Captain Cargill, my hon. friends .will not deny the qtb r parentage of their settlement (hear, bear, from Mr. Macandrew.) Sucb, then, are the obligations of these five Provinces to the Company — obligations, which, to some minds seem intolerable from their greatness. My bon. iriend (Mr. {Sewell) knows to what I, allude,, and that Ido not say this for the first timt. I »ay now that, indirectly, the Company placed hint and his., collogue (Mr. Fitzgerald) on that bench ; and when the history of the origin of this colony shall be written, when we are all dead and { gone, the writer will have at his disposal materials for establishing the accuracy of my representation. (Cheers.) 'Well, ttheyn v this comparison shows that it is a question of mere jastice. Is it er'is it not just that the North, which had bo connection with the Company, except one, of hostility and wrong, should share equally in thiagsfcwith the Sojitb, of whose settlements the.Company was th»*fonuder f (Hear, bear.) Their plaim against the Company does uot rest oo a denial of all obligation to it, A» to them, it is a question of accouat, or rather about some hocus pocus arrangements between the Compaoy and the Colonial Office, by which the Company may, or may not, have got too much ; but nobody says anything of the sort about the Auck« land claim, which is a question of comparison end meie justice. In that form alone is the question sabmitted to the house by the motioa before them. But for myself, I ge beyond merely asking for a decision on the ground of jostice. Perhaps it would be more politic in me to say nothing now about any ultimate object — to proceed cautiously, step »y step, establishing one point as the foundation of awother — and to conclude at iome ether time by asking for practical relief for "Auckland. But I prefer stating now my ultimate object, which indeed the house is entitled to know now before it grants the inqairy. If the Committee should report favorably on the Auckland claim for exemption on the score of mere justice, it would, I think, be wy duty to go on — in concert, I hope, with the Government — to some measure, not only from relieving Auckland from the obligation to pay any more, but also for restoring what has been already piid by Auckland. (Hear, hear.) Though this motion is confined to the siagle point of justice, I have had more in my own mind, even to the extent of repayment if injustice has been done. (Cheers.) lam also clearly of opinion that by doing jostice to Auckland, we should do an Act of Bound poMcy as respects the whole debt and the whole colony. (Hear, hear.) My own settled belief is, that no relief will ever be •btained from Parliament by means of technical legal objectieas to the debt — by any hocus pocus counter to that whereby the burden was imposed on us : that the most ingenious turua and twists will be oi no avail, but that if we are wise and brave enough to claim exemption from the whole debt on grounds of juatice, we may probably be relieved from it altogether. The true cause of the Company's ruin was the misconduct of the Imperial Government. The enquiries of" the House of Commons in 1844 and 1845 established that point ; and if Lord Grey had not deserted the Company's cause when he got into power— -the cause of which till then he was the advocate and champion — even if the Company, when deserted by bim, bad stuck to the principles of its claim on the Government, I believe that the In perial Parliament would have saved ns from the burthen of this debt, by compensating the Company for its losses. I believe that the Company missed compensation in that way through the misconduct of its own Directors. Uo- j til then, the paramount iufluence in the direction of the Compauy was that of a number of public men, noblecneo and members of Parliament, whose only objects weie public-spirited, who de : rived no reward for their exertions but. the pleasure and honour of founding a great colony, but then, in 1846, 1 was struck down by illneis, just after Lord Grey got into powef, and the whole direction of the Company fell into the hands of men with small souls and large insatiabb ppekets, (Cheers.) And then the cause of the colony and the Company was sold for the miserable arrangement which laid the foundation ©f this debt. (Criea of hear.) Lord Grey changed his mind ; be seemed afraid of carrying out what bad betn his own policy in opposition to Lord StauJ^y ; he, and the then managing directors laid ib*r heads together (as they usould not have done so successfully if I badjjot been as good as dead) to cook up the arrangement which has saddled us wiiMhi* debjf. (Cheers.) I believe that if tbt whols case hsc( been represeoted to Parliaartntj New Zealand would have esoaaed thwJwrtiiea. And «ye& now, I ani inclined ,to tbjnk, that if^>« colony claimed relief on ground* o! justice only, »fld as to the whole de|t,tbe claim might prove successful. Having no fall!) io the faccesa of auy other mode of pro-

ceeding, I venture to sty to the bouse, Jet Hi go for justice, and let us set th« example of justice done by ourselves; . (Cheers.)- If <we adopt thfs high policy, and conduct it in a plain, honest,, straightforward way, there will be at least a' cbanct of complete relief. Another advantage which, I thinky wpuld-mult from,oOT,doing jostles t toAaclcland,bthatitwouldbeainostttllipgtnswfer to the question some time ago pot to me by tbe b'on. and gallant officer <Major Greenwood,) when he asked me how. the distinct interest* of the North' would be. affected by, Responsible Government. I 1I 1 told him then, that I trusted that irodeT Responsiblt Government, all essential difference«-'betwe«D J the North and the South would be recognized in our legislation. Can there be one more plain than! this ? (Cheers.) Can there be a case, in which it more clearly behoves us to adopt the principle of special legislation for 'special circumstances?. (Cheers.) I do believe, Sir, that 'if we set Parliament an example of justice in the. matter of this debt, other good' results will ensue beside* our possible escape, from > tbe* whole burthen. - I, fancy. that, by this ono act,* \re ; might put*, final end to-jealousy and feud between ,the North and r Southland might ul.iumtely bring about a complete amalgamation of those two divisions ot the colony. Even now there assigns of atendencj< towards such amalgamation between elements formerly hostile. That tendency is evinced by' the kind reception which has been. given to U* from the South by every clan in this community ; by the cordial and most useful support f w>hich the Northern members of this .bouse gaye to onrpet project of Responsible Government ;' by the tfririt of this .motion, which is not confined^to the 2*oo vef-among-Southern members | and;e;V«n (though.this is a smaller consideration) by the, fact .that, the proposer of justice to the North, sometime; since pledged to the principle 1 , and^riow «afryirigit out, wa.s, throughout- the /fierce .w^r/beiween North ajidSoutb, tlje chief ,projnoter 4 iod conductor of hostile proceedings on the Southern side. (Cheers,) Sir, I sbould-notbe surprised if a manifestation by the ihouse of the,«piritjo'f this mo*r tion were .even, to 'have some effect in .reconciling the internal party feud by which the North is districted and enfeebled. Still J ask at : present only for a fair enquiry. In selecting members of the proposed committee, I had' no .concert ot consultation with tbe representatives of the North. In the very spirit of the ' motion, I took a member from each Province, giving fi*e to the South and only one to 'the^North. -If consideration* of justice alone 1 are to- guide this enquiry, it matters not, whether the North has ten or one of its members on the committee. (Hear,hear.) I have not thought about balancing numbers^ 'but have rather indicated on a small scale the policy T of ju*tic'e, on which tbe motion itself i* based. In selecting a member from each Province I have let-accident chiefly determine. As respects attachment to justice, I could see no distinction amongst the members from Otago. From Canterbury, indeed, unless I bad taken my own relative, which seemed undesirable, Rcould.-oot have cboserTany *ut tbe hon. member 'whose name is on the list, (Mr. Wortley) and who, I hope, will excuse me for saying, that if- there bad- been many to choose amongst, I should have deemed one of bis name and lineage as peculiarly 'fit. to decide in a matter of justice and honour.' (Cheers.) It is hardly necessary for me to go through the list, though perha) a, it ought to be mentioned that I selected the hit), member (Mr. Porter) amongst the Northern representative, because be moved in this matter before me. I have heard it said by one member in private, that tber# may be an amendment, proposing to refer tins question to the committee on the general debt : but I hardly expect it, because that course would be very unreasonable. The chairman of that committee (Mr. Hart) objected decidedly to mixing together questions so essentially different. (Hear, hear.) I imagine, too, that if any amendment were in contemplation, its author would, have been so courteous a* to give me notice of his purpose. My latt word, Sir, shall %c an allusion to his Excellency's suggestion, when opening the session, that we should consider this subject, and distinctly from the question of the whole debt. We must at all events be so far guided by that recommendation, as to understand from it that no objection can be raised to my motion on the ground that it relates to money, and tbat hi* Excellency has not recommended the subject to our notice. The boo. member sat down amidst much cheering. Mr. Bartlet rose with pleasure to second this important motion. Aud it was of the greatest importance, for the consolidation or alienation of the Provinces might depend on it. The mover, in speaking of the apparent sopineness of the Northern member*, had taken the right point ; it was delicacy only that bid indisposed them to initiate the subject. They were not, in fact, supine ; it had received their most serious consideration : they would have ill performed their duty had they uot'eonsidered it. But their unwillingness to initiate it had produced' a good result; the question was now brought forward in tbe best possible manner by .a Southern^ member. Both the Northern and" Southern members had been buffeted about by the Colonial office — a debt j which the colonists did not incur was fixed upon j the colony; but the real question now before them was, not whether the debt was due, but a simple enquiry, as to whether Auckland «hould ; bear a share. If we should be found due we are able and willing to pay ; he would have nothing to do with repudiation — we did not wish to escape from the debt ; — but it was right that an account should be rendered. He only asked tbat the debt should ba proved to be just* (Hear, hear.) It bad been urged on ' the other side, that the Company kod given up 50,000 acres of land in this Province, now worth £300,000. True it was that the Company had selected land to that amount ; but ibey had failed to fulfil their own agreement. Tbe contract had passed ; he did not care if tbe land were worth 3,000,000* instead of 300,000 ; it was not a dealing — everything bad'fallen through by the Company's' own neglect. It was argued that certain sums had been expended by tbe Company in emigration to Auckland ; if so, tbe fact could easily be demonstrated. It was also, argued that there was owing money to tbe South, drawn from the Southern revenues. Again he would csy ret ibis be demonstrated, "if such were the faQt, and let the money be, repaid. (Hear.) He had never yet been able to discover th.c ground*' on which the debt waa to be laid on the North ; be was as much puzzled as' was Antonio to discover the cause of bis sadness : But liow I caught it, found it, or came by it, What stuff 'fcis.mads of, wbereo'fit is born, ■*■ I am to learn. - ' '

The question before the house was inquiry, and only inquiry. He was sure that this wou'd not be refused. No man could be more anxious than himsetf fox the integrity of New Zealand, but if the North were barkened with a debt, without in being first shown that the debt was justly imposed, separation wight be the ultimate consequence. (Cheers.) Mr. C<jttbn said it was toatd-for Otago to be charged with a debt which was incurrtd before that Pfovipce was in existence. . It was a mistake to say that it was tbe individual settlers, at the North who mere not «a«ed on to pay, it was those who purchased land from tfce Government arfuture:saleB. 1 Mr, Rewans said, as to what had fallen from non, member respecting himself, he would only say a few words. He could not play three or four parts, neither couldtre stand on his_he«d. He knew ie could not,so h« did wn try. As be war so he, appeared. His temper was such that he was«ompelled to be honesu * With respect to the pabHc meeting at Wellington, he had ridden more than , fifty, miles over a rppgh country to attend that ( meeting, and be arrived, tbtre,very much 'fatigued; it w«»,trujß that be hid, theie expressed^ doubt is to the justness of Auckland being • exempted'frotn the ' Company's debt. H« e#urd«oUarrytbe pjan' of the New Zealand Corqpa^y's operations jo his. brain. He was convinced .there waicapabilitj ia that Company, but there was a great dealimore dishonesty. The Company had a'claim «to all the lands of New Zealand. If.tht committee was ftp- , pointed' this would appear. The 'honourable number had said the Company bad basely alan'diered Auckland. As a newspaper writer fa« (Mr. R.) bad refused to disparage it. He was ■Wot aware of its merits until he arrived here and saw -how great they were.' He could u»e no language sufficiently, strong, in suting the baseness of [the Company in disparaging Auckland. iHe did not object to enquiry, but he could not afford to loie time, as at home t« was a day labourer; he wished to do business, rather than that the house should be turned into a debating club; but the present Committee would be losing time. Ifhen there was, (he qaestion of division ; a certain quantity of land-was to be marked out by drawing a line. In tbe old division New Plymouth was in the Northern Province, and now by a new line it was out of it. Some person might wish to consider all the waste lands in the province of Auckland, if by that meant they 'wjould lie free from 1 the Company's debt. W,e are colonists of New Zeajaud, anil h,e -cpald allow, of n> difference being. made between the North aod tlie South. (Hear, hear.) -The hon. Ynember id the course of 'his remarks censured Mr. Wakefield for I 'his structures on,' the Provincial Secretary at! Wellington, he being abseut, and referred f the late Colonel Wakefield as having betn jetlcjus of the Wellington settlers ;' and objected aEsb strongly to what he considered a waste of lime in debating such questions as the present one, aqd .threatened to count out tbe iiouse or leave it himself whenever such' discussions were again brought on. Mr. MEuarnvN assured the house that he had no intention of breaking through the rule proposed by the hon. member- who last addressed them by turning the house into a debuting society, or attempting to make a display of rhetoric.- In the few obienrations that it was his intention to addresa to the house he should as far as ( practicable confipe himself to stating the heads of argument! and simple facts, not enlarging on the one or cqmmenting on the other. He would in the first place in answer to objections which had heen .raised by the two last speakers, call the attention of the house to the wording of the motion, which would enable the Committee, if appointed, to decide what portion, if any, of the Company's debt ihould be saddlea on the Fro. vince of Auckland, observing that the very point upon which the inhabitants of the Province of Auckland were loudest in their complaint was that, granting that the Province wai liable for any purt of the debt, it was paying a greater proportion than any other Province (hear, hear). In fact, at the present rate, it was in a fair way to be called upon to pay the whole (hear, hear), for within the last month the settlers of Auckland had paid in round numbers about £7000, and in the current month within * fraction of j£80(K» towards the land fund of the colony. He (Mr. Merriman) therefore contended that if the Province of Auckland was ' liable to any portion of the debt, the amount ought at least to be defined (hear, hear). He should not attempt to follow the hon. member for Dunedin Country Districts (Mr. Cutten) through his detail of the numerous advantages that Auckland had received from the Government expenditure, including the great advantage of the Parkhurst bo/s (laughter), some fourteen as he believed; but of the number he was not quite certain, but' he remembered this fact that he had formerly in the Legislative Council moved for a return relative to the Parkhurst boys, from which it appeared that, whilst some had conducted themselves well, about 3-4ths of them had been re-transported (hear, bear). With regard, however, to the Government expenditure, Auckland would be quite prepared to have an account taken of the relative, proportion received by this and another Province (hear, hear). But this was no portion' of tbe question ; the present motion was for a Committee to inquire whether in justice Auckland was liable to any, and if any, to what portion of the Company's debt. He (Mr. M) would be prepared to go even further, and extend the inquiry, as to the legal- liability upon this portion of the question, of that portion of New Zealand, and which was comprised in the old Province of New Ulster, a good argument might be raised upon this point, and he (Mr. M.) could not do better than, give the heads of the arguments which had induced another Council to decide that the Province of New Ulster was not liable under the 10 and II Vie. c. 112 to payment of the Company's debt* ; the same argument applied'to the present case, and without distinctly pledging himself that the argument would be. successful; he thought it was entitled to great weight ; he would confine himself to alsimple statement of the points without attempting to argue the case fully. The house wpuld remark that by the 12th clause of the Royal In-structions-of 1846, the demesne lands of the Crown within the Islands of New Zealand were declared to be i holden " in trust for tbe benefit of her Majesty's subjects, and especially for the benefit of such of them as had settled, or should thereafter settle,. within the said islands," and by : the 31st clause, the net proceeds, after deductions, should be held "in trust for defraying I the cost of introducing into, the respective Provinces emigrants from the Umted Kingdom, or in defraying the cost of, such other public services therein as should be prescribed by Royal Instructions," The 11 and 12 Vie. which was called the New Zealand Company s Colonization Act, vested, for a time, the demesne lands of New Munster in the New Zetland Company, and repealed, so far as related to New- Munster; the Royal Instructions of 1846. The Royal, Instructions of 1850 authorised the Governor to apply one-third of the gross proceeds of the sales of land within the limits of any hundred to purposes to be signified by the wardens and by so doing appeared to recognise the position that the whole of, the land fund within the ' Province of New Ulster having been appropriated (subject to alteration under Royal Instructions), no portion of it was affected by tbe Act in question— and assuming that the land fund, the whole of it being equally appropriated, was not chargeable under 10 and 11 Vic, the same argument might be employed to relieve it under the Constitution Act. He (Mr-M.) would not enlarge upon this subject by discussing amongst other things, whether a contrary constitution would not involve a breach of faith; but with reference to an allusion of the hon. member for the Hutt (Mr. Wakefield) that the denial of the committee by this house might cause

disaffection in the Province, he (Mr. M.) could no' fc do better than read the concluding paragraph of the rapport of the Executive Council, from which he had taker* * his argument. The report concluded in these words, — ' " Believing that such a measure could not be brought into practical operation within the Northern diitrictwith- ! ont danger to the peace and, prosperity of the Province' (hear, hear), the Council would suggest that the subject should be brought under the consideration of her Majesty's Government with^ the least possible dtelay." He (Mr. Merriman) must now allude to an argument of the honorable member for the Dunedin country districts; that it w»s not in the power of this house to alter the debt, because it had been fixed on us by Parliament. As he (Mr. M.) understood the honorable member's argument, it went to this, that as Parliament had fixed this debt upon the land fund, it has by so doing to a certain extent guaranteed the payment of the debt, and raised the value of the New Zealand Company's scrip in the market. He (Mr. M.) would, however, call the attention of the house to the proviso at the end of the 74tb clause of the Constitution Act, that being the clause which charged the debt upon the land fund. That proviso enacts, "That it shall be lawful for the New Zealand Company, by any resolution! of a majority of the proprietors of the said Company present at any meeting of- such proprietors, and" certified under .the common, seal of the said Company, to release all . or any part of the said lands for the monies or payment, either absolutely or upon any, terms or conditions as such' proprietors may think fit." Now purely if the British Parliament had entrusted this Company, which we had been told was, to use a mild term, not <juite-honest,-with a power of varying the security, it woufcU eertiinly allow this house to examine the claims of a portion of the land to exemption, and if any portion' had been unjustly charged, would take a,resolution of this house into ' consideration, and retrace -its own steps by granting relief. He would conclude this portion of the subject by repeating, in .the words of his honourable and learned friend the member for the city of Auckland (Mr. Bartley), that the Province of Auckland was not only, willing, but, as J he (Mr. Merriman) believed, well able to pay its just debts. 'He (Mr. Merriman) considered that it was most unjust to attempt to saddle the provioce of Auckland with a: debt to a Company which it must be admitted by all ■ parties, had done all that could be done to injure the Province. Both the Company and its agents had from first to last vilified the Province in every way. The honourable member for the Hntt bad admitted this on the partof the Company, and he (Mr. Merriman) was prepared to prove his statement as far as regarded the, - principal agent of the Company. He held in his hand Mr. Fox s bix Colonies of New- Zealand, and carefully guarded himself agaiast expressing his own opinion ■ upon that book, for private reasons would deter him from. giving full utterance to these opinions — he would proceed to read to the house two extracts from that book, and state a few facts, and then leave the house to judge of its fairness., In the first place, p. 39, Mr. Fox states — "Auckland is well situated as a depot for native trade, and as the head quarters for missionary establishments. But with the exception of small detached valleys of volcanic soil, the country appears exceedingly poor, with scarcely a blade of natural grass, and holding out no great temptation to the agriculturist. In, some portions of the volcanic soil — 1 am not certain whether it is universal, but I saw a district of three or four miles in extent where it was so — there is not a drop 'of water to be found } none can -be got even by sinking wells:" (Cries of question.) i. He (Mr. Merriman) was strictly in order, and confining himself closely to the question. (Hear, hear.) His argument was, that the province of Auckland had not been fairly treated by the Company and its agents,— that it did not owe even a debt of gratitude to .the Company, which had systematically vilified and wronged it. (Hear, hear.) Now the fact was, that in the very centre of the district alluded - to, Jhere was a well «uqk some twelve or fourteen feet, which had been amply supplied with water during the whole of the late unparalleled drought. (Hear, hear.) He alluded to the well with a pump in it which honourable members had passed on the road from Onehunga. The next extract he would read was truly amusing — in p. 40. he found the following paragraph: "As an instance of colonization, it — meaning Auckland — was altogether rotten, delusive and Algerine. (Laughter.) The population had no root in the soil, as- was proved by some hundreds of tibem packing up their wooden houses, and rushing away to Califomiajjs*soon as the news of that •iariU-of gold arrived." He (Mr. Merriman) would tell theaouee what were the facts in this case, — the inhabitants bif Auckiandtfnsiead of packing up their dwellings, asinsinumted, caused houses to be framed and exported there to a large extent, thus employing a large amount of labour, and giving a great impetus to trade (hear, hear), and had reason to make a boast of their energy, instead. of boasting as the book did, that "in Cook's Strait's not h*lf a dozen persons were moved by that bait." (Hear, hear.) Having thus disposed of Mr. Fox's statement of facts, he (Mr. M.) could not forbear — although perhaps not so strictly in order—referring to the prophecies contained in the same book; in alluding to the Pensioner villages, Mr. Fox has the following oracular passage—" I found the largest of these villages, Howick, located fifteen miles from Auckland, on a bare and poor sail, without a stick of firewood within many^ miles." He (Mr. Merriman) was not quite sure as to the distance ; perhaps the honourable member for the pensioner settlements would inform the house. Dr. Bacot — Three miles. Mr. Merriman thanked the honourable member, and would continue reading — " remote from employers of labour, and separated from them and from Auckland by an unfordable river. Reports of actual starvation among the inhabitants of this village, the winter after I saw it, were circulated in the Auckland papers, and unless it was staved off by eleemosynary means, I do not see how it could have failed to result from the circumstances in which the pensioners were placed." So much for the prophecy. Now the facts were, that the Howick division had purchased of pre-emptive land alone (which as the house was probably aware, was an allowance of five acres each, to be paid for by instalments) upwards of 400 acres, and it came within his (Mr. Merriman's) personal knowledge, that one pensioner at Howick had contracted for the purchase of a property for the sum of £2,500. But really this book put him in mind of what happened to him before he left England. Having made up his mind to emigrate, and having a Sort of conservative feeling that the Government must be right, he fixed upon Auckland as his destination. He, of course, made enquiries, and gained as much information as possible. Among other persons, he enquired of a gentleman, a very old friend, who was intimately connected with the New Zealand Company, and who tried to dissuade him from emigrating to Auckland, assuring him that it was a mere fishing village, and tbattbe Company had been compelled to take a large block of land— the very land that there was now so much fuss about giving up— in order to help the Government in making it even that. (Laughter.) But this statement was made by a gentleman whose only means of knowledge was what he heard from the New Zealand Company. He wished he could say the same for Mr. Fox, who, in his preface, assures us that he had visited Auokland, and says, " My opportunities for. observation, and my inducements to observe, have therefore been at least equal to those of any person who had ever visited the colony," H« had trespassed longer on the time of the house than he had intended ; but he could not sit down without observing, that the members for the Auckland Province had repeatedly assured tho«e >from the South, and done so sincerely, that they had the fullest confidence that their high sense of honor would not allow th«m to act unjustly towards Auckland. Now was the time to show it. They asked but for an enquiry. They sought but justice. And honourable members should remember that when he (Mr. Memman) said they, bespoke not simply of the twelve members of that house who reside ,n the Province pf Auckland, but in the name of one half of the colony, which sought, and he was sure would receive, justice from the other portion, which was the most numerously represented in that Assembly. 1 (To be Continued )