PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. TUESDAY, JANUARY 31st.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 888, 4 February 1854, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. TUESDAY, JANUARY 31st.

On the motion of Mr. Brandon, the New Zealand Company's Debt Commission Bill, and t*he Appropriation Bill, were severally read a first time. On the motion of Mr. Dorset, the Report of the Hospital Committee was adopted. j On the motion of Mr. Wallace, the Report of the Sanitary Committee was adopted. Mr. Moore moved in pursuance of a notice by him to that effect : — That in order to enable members who may not have voted upon, or those who may desire to express th«ir dissent from any measure which may have passed the Council, the right to protest against the same be recognised by this Council. : A discussion of some length ensued, but the : resolution was negatived.

SCAB BILL. The Council went into committee on this bill Mr. Hart in the chair. On the consideration of the 2nd clause, The Prov. Secretary moved as an amendment a long string of resolution*, to which reference has been made in the previous day's discussion, to be adopted as part of the bill. Mr. Wallace and Mr. Mooie supported the Prov. Secretary's amendment. Mr. Revans said the sympathies of members were wrong; experience proved it would never pay a gentleman to keep sheep who did not superintend them himself. He was satisfied it would be found to the interest of the Province, and of those who had sheep, to be forced to keep them clean. In reply to an observation of Mr. Wallace, Mr. Revans referred to a recent instance of a scabby flock which were being driven along the coast, thirty of which had got astray at a , station at Oron.^oronjo, and which might cost the owner of the station thousands of pounds. Mr. Bethune doulited whether the brands with tar would last : he thought the bill too stringent, though it may suit the interest of one or two members — (order). Mr. Brown hoped the debate would not degenerate into personalities. The moment the bill came into operation, with proper attention, he thought the scab might be got rid of. They should consider the bill as it stands^ and if it was a good bill, should adopt it. He conceived the bill to be good in principle, and would be useful in practice, and he should, therefore, support it. Mr. Wakefield said he hoped that he might restore the composure of the House, by adverting to the general question of the different characteis of the two measures which they had to choose between ; he meant the bill of his

Hon. friend (Mr. Revans), and the amendments proposed by the hon. Secretary, which virtually amounted to a new bill. The 'first was founded on <he principle of self-government by the people ; the second, on the principle of government by officials. The first was agreeable to that great English principle which they had derived from their Saxon ancestors, and which made the people themselves— being the persons interested — administrators of the laws framed by their representatives j a principle which had been carried from England to America, aid the operation of which had formed the self- rely ing, ,elf acting character of the Anglo-Saxon nations. The other principle was thut of officialism, which obtained in France anl Russia, under which laws were administered, not by the people, but to them, making them helpless tind servile to authority, so that they were content with the stagnant condition in which the operation of that ba<! principle also kept the-". For officialism, not being interested, was a lazy and feeble adrainistjato? of laws designed to promote improvement. How the members of the Government had been led to perfer the principle of officialism to that of self-relying action by the parties interested, was to him (Mr. W.) matter of wonder. Their conduct in this respect was directly opposite to the faith which they had always professed. - It would have excited no surprise in hon. members who, having belonged to nominee governments, might be supposed to be hardened by habit into the belief that officialism is perfection. But these sided with his hon. friend (Mr. Revans), as he (Mr. W.) should do, because he thought that the grand object was to eradicate the disease in sheep — to save this province from a curse which afflicted Van Diemen's Land — whilst there was vet time, before it was too late ; and because he firmly believed that there was no chance of attaining that object save by casting upon those who were personally interested, the responsibility of administering a sufficiently stringent law. A discussion ensued, in which Mr. Brown, the Prov. Secretary, Mr. Ludlam, and other members took part, after which, The Prov. Secretary said 'hat he would not accept the hon, member's (Mr. Wakefield's) provocation, but would pass it in silence. In comparing the two plans, (he Mr. W.) had forgotten that under the Government plan, aggrieved persons would have the ordinary remedy at law for damage. It would have been better to remark that, than to say that, by the Government plan, the law was to be carried into effect by a set of hardened officials. After some further discussion the Council dividad on the Provincial Secretary's resolutions. For the resolutions — Mess. Fitzherbert, Moore, Wallace, Bethune, Dorset, Daniell. Against — Messrs. Bell, Brown, Ludlam, Lyon, Revans, Wdkefield, Watt. The Chairman then reported progress and the House resumed.

AUDIT BILL. The Council went into Committee on this bill Mr. Brown said he was iv a similar position to that of the Prov. Secretary on the 'former bill ; he wished to propose several additional clauses which would alter the bill materially. He would submit that these resolutions should first be taken as a whole, and afterwards examined seriatim. It was a question on which public opinion was greatly interested, and which nearly concerned the character of the House, and the chai actor of the Government, that a proper system of Audit should be in stituted in the Province, Feeling the delicacy of the question he had delayed from day to day, anxiously expecting the Government would take it up, and he had only now undertaken it from an imperative sense of duty. He had frequently called the attention of the Government to this subject, at first incidentally, afterwards with more energy and directness, until at length he had moved an address to the Superintendent, setting forth that the public under Responsible Government required to be informed of the arrangements for auditing the accounts of the Province, and that these arrangements should be laid before the Council for approval. This address had received the full and cordial assent of the houi-e, and he felt disappointed that the principle of the address had neither been affirmed nor denied in the bill ; instead of this they had received what the Prov, Secretary called a "thank ye for nothing" bill. He maintained, no direct answer had been given, they had received only the shadow of a bill ; it was proposed, when the accounts were audited to constitute a select committee to look over the accounts, thus attempting to draw them aside from the main question. Seeing this he had brought forward these resolutions to secure the establishment of a full, complete, and satisfactory system. They prayed for an effectual system of audit : the Government only bring in a bill to examine audited accountt. The great question between the resolutions and the bill was this, — whether the people should have a voice in appointing auditors, who should examine how their money had been spent, or whether they should be appointed by Government. Mr. Brown then entered at considerable length on the different resolutions, and explained that he had Mr. St. Hill's authority for stating that he had not accepted the permanent office of auditor, as he could not honestly discharge, its duties unless he gave up his other appointments. He had asked Mr. St. Hill's opinion of the resolutions, and that gentleman stated he highly approved of them, and of the machinery they proposed to establish, and that the public ought to be satisfied with nothing short of it. He (Mr. B.) therefore hoped the Council would give effect to the principle embodied in the resolutions. Mr. Brown then moved the following resolutions : — whereas it is expedient that the public acoounts erf the Province should be examined and niuiitetl by -an officer specially appointed fof* that purpose, and that all the duties of that officer should be prescribed by lair, as by the 63rd clause of the Constitution Art, is directed with regard to laws for the auditing of the accounts of the colony, to be passed by the General Assembly ; and it is expedient that sufficient powers for the due performance of his duties, should be conferred upon such officer. Be it therefore enacted, that as soon as conveniently may be after the passing of this Act, the Superintendent shall appoint a Cormnissioiier of Audit. The duties of such Commissioner shall be, to eia-

mine carefully and minutely all the accounts of those departments .of the Provincial Government, which are in any way connected with the receipt, custody, or expenditure of the public monies of the Province, and to compare such accounts with the original vouchers relating thereto, and to examine nil contracts entered into by any department of the Government, and all tenders relating thereto, and to make to ihe Superintendent at regular periods, twice in every year, d report of such Commissioner's opinion on the Adcuracy of snch accounts, and ad to the propriety and due application of the item 9 appearing in, such accounts. And all such half yearly reports, shall from time to time be laid before the Provincial Council, within a week of the leceipt thereof by the Superintendent, if the Council shall then be in session, or if the Coum-il shall not be in session, tben within a week lifter its next meeting. And it shall be lawful for such Commissioner to call upon ull persons accountable for public monies received or expended, to attend personally before him for examination; and to produce all accounts, books, vouchers, coirespoudenee, or other documents relatiug to the public accounts. And it shall be lawful for such Commissioner to search and make extracts froiri all accounts, books, correspondence, or other documents in any office relating to the receipt, custody, or expenditure of the public monies. And it shall he lawful for the Commissioner to admiuister an oath or affirmation to any witues"s he may examine. And whereas it is expedient that the person charged with the examination and audit of the public accounts should be free from the influences of pa"rty politics, Be it therefore enacted, that uo member of -the Provincial Council, nor any person holding any offide of trust or etnolumeut under the Superintendent, shall be competent to hold the office of Commissioner of Audit. And whereas it is expedient that the appointment of every Commissioner of Audit should have the direct approval of the Provinciiil Council* as the special guardian of the public monies ; Be it theiefore enacted, that no appointment of any Commissioner by the Superindent shall take full effect, until the same shall have been laid before the Provincial Council, by message from the Superintendent, and the Council shall have expressed its approbation thereof by address to the Superintendent. And whereas it is expedient that the position of the person charged with the examination and audit of the public accounts should be made independent of changes in the executive government, from whatever cause arising } and independent of those officers of government whose accounts it will be his duty to examine; Be it therefore enacted, that the Commissioner of Audit sha.ll have a salary of £ a-year, not liable to alteration except by act of the Provincial Council passed for that pnrpose. And be it enacted, that the Commissioner of Audit, after his appointment shall have been approved of as aforesaid, by the Provincial Council, shall not be removeable from his office, unless the Provincial Council shall address the Superintendent, praying for his removal, and stating in their address the grounds for such prayer. And be it enacted, that in case of a vacancy in the office of Commissioner of Audit, whither arising from death, resignation, or removal, the vacancy shall be filled up by the appointment of another Commissioner, in the same manner, and subject to the same conditions as are hereinbefore specified. Mr. Wakefield said that geneially, when a new question was brought before the House by an independent member, he should think it right to wait and barn the views of the Government before expressing his own. But in the present case there was no occasion for such p'udence; for by a singular inversion of the common order of discussions, the House had listened to the objections of the Government to his hon. friend's resolutions before a word was uttered in support of them. The hon. Secretary, being the defendant, had managed to open the case ; and they had only jusi then heard the plaintiff for the first time, tn addressing the House he (Mr. Wakefield) should take the ordinary course, by beginning at the beginning, and ending at the end — by first staling the reasons which weighed with him m favor of the motion, and then examining the objections to it which had been urged by the hon. Sscreary when notice of the motion was given some days ago. And he would endeavour to do sj with perfect fairness, and with as much moderation as he could command, because he would assume that the object of the House in this discussion was to get at what was reasonable and right on a subject of importance which was new to them all. He confessed that the subject was new to him : he had never till lately paid any serious attention to it : and he felt called upon by his own want of familiar knowledge of the subject, to state his present views with regard to it seriously and soberly, without introducing irrelevant matter. He would begin by stating, in general terms, the question which, as he viewed the subject, the House was about to determine. They had to choose between two very different methods of luditing the public acooun's — to decide whether this Province, with its new Representative Institutions, will adhere to the old plan of audit which existed under the last form of Government, or will use its new institutions frr the purpose of establishing a new plan of audit more consonant with them. The two plans rested on two principles so different from each other that they might be termed opposite principles. Under the first, the Executive Government really audits its own accounts, by means of an officer wholly dependent on it, i having no duties but such as are from time to time prescribed by the Executive, and being '. liable to removal at pleasure. Under the se- ' cond, an Auilit office is created by law, with the deliberate intention of making it a check [ upon the Executive ; a power is raised up, del signed to be, in some measure, independent of > ! the Executive, whose accounts are to be auditl ' ed, but subject to correction, in case of mal-ad- . ministration, either directly by the representaL tive body, or v y a process in the courts of law. ■ The two methods of audit were as different as ■■ the two systems of government commonly • called arbitrary and responsible. There was a • ; variety of means whereby the efficiency of r audit, as a check upon the Executive, may be , secured. The most important of these appeared to be giving the auditor, by law, a tenure of ■ office independent of the Government of the day, as was the case in England. The fepre- [ sentative body might have a direct voice in the appointment of the auditor ; and the auditor might be subject to removal from office for 1 proved mal-administration. There were two ways in either of which such removal for mis conduct might be secured. The first was by process of law, when the office was held on the tenure commonly expressed by the words f guam div se bene gesserit, as the auditors held [ office at home. They rould not be removed by » the Executive, nor at all except by proof in '<■ one of the Supreme Courts of justice,- with the [ protection of a jury, that they had misconduct- . Ed themselves with reference to their duties,- as i prescribed by law. The second mode of subjecting an offtcer to removal was by address 1 from the two houses of Parliament, as was pro1 vided for by statute with regard to the judges and a few other public servants at home. Lastly

came an indispensable condition of efficiency, viz., that the dutie" of the audit office should be prescribed by legislative enactment, and that the legislature should confer on the officers all requisite power for the due performance of such duties. That had been most carefully done at home by the statutes, whose provisions to that effect he had quoted to the House when they were considering the adJresa to his Honor on the subject of Audit. He would not again go into the details, but would just remind the House, that the duties of the auditors were very fully and strictly laid down, and that the Commissioners had power to send for persons and papers,* and to examine upon oath eveiy officer of the Government, from the fit>t Lord of the Treasury to the smallest clerk in the smallest public department. Until these provitiors were made by law, the audit of accounts in England had been very inefficient ; and its badness had led to complaints, to reform, and to these and other provisions, the effect of which had been to render the audit office at home one of the most efficient departments of Government. He must now beg the House, having regard to the principles which he had brought befo c them, to compare the plan of his Honor's Government with that of his hon. friend. According, to the original plan of the Government, the Provincial Secretary was to a dit his own accounts as one of a board of auditors ; and the other members of the board weie to hold office by a tenure of complete dependence on the pleasure of ihe Executive. He understood that the idea of making the Provincial Secretary an auditor was now given up. The abandonment of that idea was creditable to the Government ; and he trusted that farther reflection would induce them to give up more of their views on this subject, so that in the end their plan might be agreeable to what prevails under free institute ns, instead of resembling the audit system of arbitrary-governments. The addition, however* to their first plan which they now proposed by the bill before the House, appeared to him no improvement, but the contrary. They proposed alaw for authorising the Council to do what it may do at present any and every day in the week at pleasure ; that is, whenever it shall please to appoint a .Select Committee charged to examine the accounts as audited by the auditor. That proposal exhibited a want of reflection for which he could not account ; for he sincerely believed that the Government did not thereby intend to do what is called '• throwing a tub to the whale," but that they imagined there would be snme real usefulness in the proposed law. It was not in that direction that improvement could be made. If the hon. Secretary would consent to regulate and strengthen the audit office by law, the Council could at all times, without any law for that purpose, inquire into the conduct of the audit office. It had been gravely urged by the hon. Secretary that the auditor, without any fresh law to protect him, would not be wholly dependent on the Executive ; because if he were removed by them, he might appeal against their decision to the Executive Council ; and doubtle°s there was in the Executive Act which they had passed at T the beginning of the Session, a provision which gave such appeal to officers dismissed by the Superintende t. That provision might have had some effect if they had passed the Execntue Bill as it was laid before them ; but they had al'ered its whole character when they struck out the first clause which gave all Executive authori y to the Superintendent " alone, in his" own per- : di" without advice from any body, tnd substituted for it a clause — the present first clause of the Act — whereby the Executive authority of the Supeiintendent was limited by providing that it could only be exercised "by and with the advice" of his Executive Council. It was by that clause that the House had established responsible government; and by it they had also made a nullity of that appeal of a dismissed officer to the Executive Council, which would have had some reality if all authority had been vested in the Superintendent "alone, in his own person." As the act now stood, the dismissal of an officer could not take place except by and w.th the advice of the Executive Council ; and then the appeal of the dismissed officer would be to that very Executive Council which had advised his dismissal. That appeal clause in the Executive Act had become perfectly useleas, not to say a mockery ; and it ought to have been struck out when they so altered the first clause a 9 to make the Executive Council responsible for every thing done by the Superintendent. The independence of an Auditor, as alleged to be secui'ed by the appeal clause of the Executive Act, was therefore entirely groundless. He would now turn to the plan of his hon. friend: * His resolutions go to prescribe fully and particu'arly by law the duties of the office, and to confer the indispensable powers. He subjects the appointment of the officer to the sanction of tlie representative body, and gives him a secure tenure of office, by providing that he shall riot be removed save at the instance of the representative body, and for mal administration to be described by them wb^en calling for his removal ; whilst at the same time that power of so getting him removed makes him directly responsible to the representatives of the people. Such was the character of his hon. friend's plan. It was a plan altogether agreeable to the method of audit which prevails Under the representative and responsible system, and just as contrary to that which prevails under the arbitary system, commonly called in New Zealand the nominee system. Strange to say, the hon. Secre ary and his colleague upheld the method of audit which was agreeable to the nominee system of government, and objected to that which was agreeable to the system of free institutions* He (Mr. W.) could understand opposition to his hon. friend's plan from the hon. members (Mr. Moore, Mr. Bell, and Mr. Ludlaro) who had been members of a nominee government, and who might be supposed to be' warmly attached to its practices; He tiusted they would not receive his remark as a taunt ; for every taunt of that kind had been wholly deprived of force by the complete, sinceie, and earnest adoption of the new system of Government by those hon. members. He understood, indeed, that his hon. relative (Mr. Bell) woula vote with the Government, but on grounds, which he had explained, relative 1 to their threatened resignation in case they should be out

( voted, not because he Objected to the principles of the resolutions which the Government opposed. That opposition of the Government had been sustained by objections to the resolution*, to which he would now bri.flv advert, The first, which the hon. Secretary had repeated over and over again, was* that the audit, as proposed by his (\lr. W.s) hon. friend. would be an imperium in imperio, such as, set the hon. Secretary said, had destroyed ever/ government that had allowed it to grow up. The hon. Secretary's illustration was unfortunate—that of Janissai ies in Turkey — for they had not destroyed the Turkish Government, but had by it been destroyed to a man. He would, however, meet the objections faiily. Speaking trenerally, nothing could be more objectionable than an imperium in imperio in the odious sense of the word — that of a powet within the go- - vcrnment greater than that of the government itself. But that was one of several exceptions from that general rul", which Were admitted to be right and wise. The c-*se of the judges and that of the auditors at home were known and acknowledged as exceptions required by the peculiarity of the object in view. The hon. Secretary had taken no notice whatever of these exception tl c ses. If he had noticed them, he would, in his (Mr. W.s) opinion, have praised rather than Condemned the resolutions by saying that they go to establish an imperium in imperio ; for, he could not help believing that the chief merit of those resolutions was that they proposed to create an auditing power which should be independent of the Executive. But the expression imperium in imperio, which the hon. Secretary had so often repeated in its odious sense, was altogether inapplicable to the resolutions as a whole, since one of thpm pro* posed that the auditor should be strictly subject and responsible to the representatives of the people. That again was a point of which the hon. Secretary had not taken the slightest notice. He had, however, denied that the auditors in England were independent of th 6 Executive, by saying that thdy are Wholly subject to orders from the Lords of the Treasury; The fact was not so : the hon. Secretary had been misinformed-. By the British Statutes relating to audit, amongst other dii ies prescribed, there was that of obedience to orders from the Lords of the Treasury, but such ordera related to matters of detail — to the form and manner of keeping accounts in the audit uffice — the manifest object of the provision being to square the audit form and manner of account*, to make them tally and agree, with the form and manner of accounts in other departments of gove nment, and especially with those of the Treasury. Such subjection of the audit office to the Treasury, if so it might be called, was only intended to facilitate the labours of the audit office in handling the public accounts, and was totally different from that which the hon. Secretary imagined. Tn reality there was no subjection ; only a provision for harmony between the form and manner of accounts in the audit offi c and the departments whose accounts were to be audited. The hon. Secretary was curiously inconsistent. Although he now objected in toto to the resolutions, he had frequently praised the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brown) for his conduct in this matter. One day he spoke of his " laudable exertions ;" on another of having " hit the very nail on the head ;" and on a third occasion, the hon. Secretary said that the public would be mainly indebted for a good system of audit to the hon. member. After that, what a change ! After so praising the hon. member, the hon. Secretary objected to every part of his plan-, and derided him for trying to make a reality of the principles whiclt he had advocated all along. Whilst the hon. member (Mr. Brown) confined himself to principles, the hon. Secretary covered him with compliments ; but the moment he brought forward a measure strictly founded on these principles, nothing could be more objectionable and absurd. He (Mr. W.j had been struck by the impolicy of his Honor's Government hi making this a question of life arid death for th£ administration. For that course he could see but one excuse. If his Honor's advisers believed, as they appeared to do, and as he (Mr. W.) thought they rea'ly did believe, that these resolutions cast a foul reflection ori their personal integrity as regards the public money; they might well say, " toucli my honor, touch my life," and make up their minds ti retire from office if the resolutions were cai ried. But what could be more eironeous than such a belief? If the establishment of an effectual audit implied suspicion of the honesty of the head of the Government undirbis Honor, how. was it at home ? Did the existence of Acts of Parliament which make the audit office independent of the minister of the day, imply that Sir Robert Peel or Lord John Russell was a* rogue ? Nonsense ! The reason of the thing was, that unless the duties and powers of art audit office, and its independence of the Executive, were settled by law, tHe pUblic accdunts generally would be badly kept, and would get into disorder, and that losses of public money would be the result of such a state of accounts.; Parliament; withdut the slightest reference to) any minister in particular; dete'rmiued, that, for general and tnnst useful public purposes, there should always be a real and good audit. He trusted, therefore, that be might adduce sonde illustrations of the rises of an audit in saving the; public money, without being supposed to cast any reflection on hi 3 Honor's present or future^ advisers, or any body else. He remembered £t case which shewed in a remarkable manner th£ difficulty of getting at the true state of public accounts" without the aid of an audit office madd skilful by practice. It ocCured in Lower" Canada, and was known to his honl. frierid (Mr. Revans) as indeed it wag to the public, having been matter of notoriety. For years the House; of Assembly of Lower Canada suspected that there had been default in the Treasury. They obta ned accounts from the Government, but could not rriake out the supposed deficit. Thg supposed defaulter lived in great style, built a fine hous^i and looked down upon those who were only settlers, lie was one of that Family Compact whioh, before the rebellion in Lower Canada, used to ti ample on the people. There 1 were very clever men in the House of Assembly, bat they could not get at the truth from the copies of the public accounts which were laid before them. There was no audit, or, if any, only a nominal one. At last, after yea i had passed away, a searching enquiry was instituted, and the Treasury wwara r found to be in.

/default to the amount, if he remembered right, 'of more than a hundred thousand pt u »ds. If there had been responsible government, there would have been a real audit under wh'bh such default could not have occurred without being soon found out, or rather would nothave occurred at all : it would have been prevented by the operation of a real audit. "Perhaps he ought to explain how 'this could happen in a colony enjoying representative institutions. There was 'a "Souse of Assembly representing ' the people, but no responsible government ; for "during a long -series of years the Government party in the Assembly was only 8 among 64 ; a minority of eight -led by the AttorneyGeneral, seven- eighths being always in opposition. Of course there was no real audit under such a state of things. That monstrous state of things led tc*the rebellion, which led, and not very indirectly, to the free institutions ■Vrhich New Zealand had obtained. He would cite another case which showed, not, like the r last, what evil might arise from the want of a real audii, but how useful a real audit was as a to evil doers. A gentleman of importance in an English county took the office of its Receiver of Taxes, an office which at that time used to have the custody of very large sums. It was observed that his expenditure increased after his appointment far beyond his known '"means ; but nobody for a moment suspected that anything wrong was going on. One day, however, this holder of public monies retired, with his letters just received, to his library, \ ■where he remained so long as to excite uneasiness about him. The door of that room , "was found to be locked ; and when it was '' broken 1 open the defaulter appeared dead. He had blown out his brains ; and on the table there was an open letter from the Audit-office, making some enquiry about his accounts. These cases showed the value of a true audit. They were cited for that purpose only : and it would be simply ridiculous if the hon. Secretary applied them to himself individually, though very likeV he would do so as he had done with the resolutions before the House. If he (Mr. W.) thought that the hon. Secretary was justified, on the score of regard for his own honor, in resigning because the resolutions were carried — if he believed that either in or out of Council those resolutions would be attributed' toany of the lion, gentlemans 7 integrity — he would vote against the resolutions as unjustifiable; snd he would not vote for them at any rate if he thought that there was any risk of their being carried, be- • cause he would not be party to turning out the Government when nobody was prepared to take «their place. But they would not be carried : 'they would surely be rejected by ihe majority which supports the Government ; and therefore the threat of resigning if they were carried was idle talk. Surely the Government must see, after the explanations which had been given, that his hon. friend's proposal was not for the present, but for all time. If the ' 'Government could reasonably say that they . would stand or fall by their opposition to these t resolutions, it would be just as reasonable for persons who might be called on to succeed them, to decline office because the resolutions had been carried. He would still hope that *the Government might withdraw their threat. He could not conceive how they could avoid being amongst the 'first to wish for a real audit of that vast sum in proportion to ordinary revenue, which the Council was placing at their disposal ; and not for the mere payment of salaries, be it remarked, which involved no 'complication of accounts, but for outlay on a Variety of public works, involving contracts and much complication of accounts. If ever a -real audit was necessary, it was so when the -representatives of the people granted large sums tD the Executive, to be laid out for a number of different purposes involving contracts and complex arrangements with regard to nun 7-. He did not blame the Government for having neglected this subject at the commencement of the Session. He fully believed that if their attention had then been drawn to : ir, they would have framed some efficient plan of audit. But not the members of Government only, but all of them had entered on the performance of duties which were new to them; and if that were not a good excuse for neglect of some important matters, he should 'himself plead guilty, and take blame to himself, for not having postponed the appointment of an auditor when they were appointing other 'officers by the Executive Act. He could only "say tiow, as he trusted the Government might think, that it would be rr ' better late than never." There was another impolicy in their resistance to the proposal of his hon. friend. It was not his (Mr. W.s) own opinion only, but he found it to be the opinion of all intelli'gtnt and thoughtful men with whom he had conversed on the subject, that the credit of the . Province, as a borrower of money, would be hurtfully affected by the persistence of the Government in opposition to an effectual audit. . The resolutions would not be rejected on their merits, but votes against them would be 'given, like that of the hon. member {Mr. Bell), because the Government had made it a question of life and death. They would stand as a condemnation of the Government ; and if the Government found a difficulty in raising the money which they were authorised to borrow, they would find a material cause of the difficulty to be this pertinacious adherence to the method of audit which commonly prevails under bad government, and this obstinate rejection of a plan which is agreeable to the system of government of which the whole Province approves. He begged that the House would excuse him for having detained them so long, and would accept his thanks for the attention 'with which they had been so good as to listen to him." He hoped that he had treated the subject in a such a way as not to raise extraneous or irritating questions. And his last wprd< should he the expression of an anxious wish that, as to this question* the Province of Wellington - may set a good example to the other P.-ovinces and the General Assembly, as it has done with regard to the subject of government with ministeii 1 respc nsibility. At the conclusion of Mr. Wakefield's speech, the Council adjourned for an hour. On its re-assembling, The ProV. Secretary said that the hon. member had laid great stress upon clause" 63 of the Constitution Act, as an example for - us to follow. He would read that clause, that

the Council might judge whether it -would be a wise plan to follow — " All costs, charges, and expenses, of or incident (o the collection, management, and receipt of duties of import and export shall be regulated and audited in such manner as shall be directed by the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." Mr. Bjrown — Will the hon. Secretary read the clause as it is ? The Fftov. Secretary then re-read the clause, not omitting the latter part of it, which is as follows : — " And all costs, charges, and expenses in relation to other branches of the said revenue shall be regulated and audited in such manner as shall be directed by laws of the said General Assembly." He had read the clause to sheAV what an example we were asked to follow, in sending our accounts to he audited by the Lords of the Treasury in England, (no, no.) As to the other observations of the hon. member (Mr. Brown), he (the Secretary) had from the first given that gentleman great credit tor bringing forward so important a subject for inquiry, on which both the House and he were deficient in knowledge ; but- when the means proposed to attain the end which both thought desirable, were irreconcileable to that principle of responsible government which the House had adopted, the hon. gentleman's plan became liable to 1 grave objection and exception. To hear the | arguments and tme of the hon-a ember, one would think that that House, instead of being a legislative body, was to be made a court of justice for bringing people in office to trial. Such a line of argument might be desirable in order to create an impression, but it was totally unsuitable to the real state of things. The Government's first declai-ation as to the system of Audit which they thought desirable was, an -intention to form a Board of Audit, unpaid for the present. They thought a board preferable to a single auditor ; but if they could not at first form a board, they were obliged to make the best temporary arrangement possible. The Government ought not to be forced by pressure into making hasty and unconsidered appointments. When the hon. member first brought the subject forward, the subject had been seriously entertained by the Government ; and as he continued to call their attention to it, they had applied themselves to it with increasing earnestness. The -conclusion they 1 came to was, to appoint Mr. St. Hill as Auditor, unpaid for the present. They believed it was only necessary to Gazette him, in order to complete his appointment. As to the composition of the Board, the hon. member for the Hutt (Mr. Wakefield) had stated that the Government intended it to consist of only two members ; whereas they intended it to consist of three : and he submitted that that , made a material difference. Tho hon, mover of the resolutions had been unable to find any ' new matter in support of them, except the un- ■ desirable example of the 63rd clause of the Constitution Act As to the seconder "of them (Mr. Wakefield), however much he might consider himself entitled to credit for that manner of addressing the House which he claimed to have preserved free from personal and offensive allusions, he (Mi*. F.) vastly differed with him on that point. He would ask whether, in enlarging on a proper system of Audit, it was necessary to draw forth what — (since the hon. gentleman himself said they were not meant for pictures) — he must term caricatures of people blowing their brains out, and other little incidents of a domestic nature. They were wholly foreign and inapplicable : nothing could be more inappropriate : for the question before us was not one of a defaulting Treasurer, as those were, but of appointing an Auditor.There was a great misapprehension on this subject. If it v/as desired to guard well the proper expenditure of public money, the proper course would be by legislative enactment to place proper restrictions to ensure the safe custody and due disbursement of the funds, and so prevent their misappropriation by the Treasurer. But the present proposal is one for carefully auditing accounts when no such preliminary care has been taken by the Council. They first entrust the funds to the Treasurer without any such precautions, and then only great care is proposed as to the audit of his accounts. If it could be said that there were no provisions for a proper Audit, the legislation of the Province as to the custody and disbursements of money by the Treasurer was certainly much more lax. As to the large sums which were so much dwelt upon, it was hardly intended or expected that all the money raised should be spent before the next meeting of the Council. But, if care was required in auditing the accounts of these large sums, how much more were restrictions on the Treasurer required. He had thus shewn how wide of the mark were the examples adduced by the hon. member (Mr. Wakefield), since they only proved the necessity of placing -careful restrictions on Treasurers. From the speeches of the hon. mover and seconder of the amendment, a stranger would be impressed with the idea that the Government wished to stifle the subject of audit, and desired there should be none at all. Such an impression would be a very false one. The Government had desired, as far as possible, to cause a good and proper auditing of the public accounts to be made : nor had they ever concealed their intentions, even as to the proposed appointments for the purpose ; but they had felt the difficulty of fill ing them up at once. An attempt had been made to shew that the audit of public accounts in England was in precise accordance with the resolutions moved as an amendment : but in his (Mr. F.s) humble opinion, the statement of the English law on the subject made by the hon, member (Mr. Wakefield) was totally at variance with the law itself. The hon. mover ' desired that the Auditors should be appointed, virtually, by the House, although he would allow the formality of an appointment by the Superintendent, subject to the direct sanction 'of the Council. Now, the English Act (here the hon. Secretary read the clause) provided for tho appointment of auditors by the King, | I that is to say, by his responsible advisers, during good behaviour, and there was not one word about Parliament interfering. This was the main point at issue ; and in objecting to a ■ direct appointment by the House, the Govern-

ment were adopting, instead of differing from, the English practice. The lion, member (Mr. Wakefield) had also said, that so jealous had Parliament been of control over these appointments, as to enact that beyond a certain number, no vacancies should be filled up except with the authority of a further Act of Paiiia.ment. Tn that statement there was a svppressio vert. He then read the clause relating to this provision ; and said he would go on to see how the provision arose, by going back in ( o the history of the legislation for audit in England. He would turn back to the Act of 1785. (The hon. Secretary here read the first clause, revoking the patent offices of Lords Sondes and Cardiff, and providing compensation for them.) The history of this was, that gross abuses had crept into those hereditary offices, and Parliament then gave power to the King to appoint ten auditors on a different footing. Afterwards, in the Act before quoted (of 1806), it being found that a less number might be enough, power was given to the King to fill up vacancies so as to keep up the number to six : but if the accumulation of business should again require more, then, and then only, was it necessary to come to Parliament for authority. Mr. Wakefield said that, by referring to the Acts, the hon. gentleman would find that, on the contrary, the Act of 1785 allowed the appointment of five auditors, and the more recent Act [first quoted by the hon. Secretary) provided for an increase to ten, not for a decrease. The Prov. Secretary — That was immaterial. He had referred back to these Acts to remove the impression attempted to be created by the hon. member that there was a limitation by Parliament of the Crown's power to appoint. When the change was made to ten, it was evidently thought that a less number might be sufficient for carrying on the business ; but as a sort of vested right was established, it was provided that the Crown should not fill up va cancies beyond six, and if more were required, Parliament was to authorise the further appointments, but not, as attempted to be shewn, to appoint them directly. Mr. Wakefield had never, on any occasion, stated that Parliament could appoint directly. All he had said, before and now, was that the Crown could not fill up vacancies beyond a certain number without a further Act of Parliament, and such was the fact. The hon. Secretary's account of his statement was absolutely incorrect. The Prov. Secretary said the hon. member completely admitted, then, his argument. He was glad, at least, that he was completely beaten from that position, and allowed that Parliament never made the appointment. Mr. Wakefield repeated that he had never taken that position. The Prov. Secretary — But the hon mover of the resolutions Joes assume that principle in them. Mr. Wakefield — Yes. The Prov. Secretary — Then he (Mr. F ) had arrived at the desired result "of his argument—at the Q.E.D. of his probbm. As to the reduction of numbers in the English Audit, the impression sought to be produced by the hon. member (Mr. W.) was that the Crown had no power to appoint a Commissioner. He was glad that he had been able to femo\e tr-at irnpicssion, and to place the subject on a basis of tiuth. Mr. Wakefield — The hon. Secretary had again repented, by implication, a charge of untruth against him. Tic must claim leave to set himself right. The hon. Secretary supports this charge by saying that the hon. mover asserted in his resolutions the principle oF appointment by the Legislative body. But what then ? The Prov. Secretary — The hon. nember seconded those resolutions. Mr. Wakefikld explained that he should have been glad if the resolutions had proposed an appointment, like the English ones, guam div se bene gesserit, only removable by action before a court of law. But as' he believed that the Provincial Legislature might not be competent to make such an alteration in the general law of the colony, he had therefore assented to a substitute for the present, which, appeared to be within their powers. The Prov. Secretary said this subject might be now dropped ; as it had been allowed that the hon. mover desires to establish that which is not the practice at home. Now, as to the great powers of the auditors in England. It had been said that they could call j before them and examine the First Lord, or ( any other Lord of the Treasury, and take him , down a peg or two, and so on, as if the Treasury was under the control of the Audit. Now the contrary was the fact. From several clauses (which the Hon. Secretary read) it would be seen that the Audit were subordinate to the Treasury, who could parcel out the Board into sub-divisions, and give them their instructions on every matter. It was inconceivablei:o the mind of any reasonable man how such provisions could be taken to imply the control of the Audit over the Treasury. When extracts from Statutes were made, though not intentionally, in • a- garbled state, if those extracts did not bear out the context, it became the duty of those becoming aware of it to explain the context, as he had done. The fact was, there wa=: an over-riding power in the Treasury over the Audit. 1 The hon. member (Mr. Wakefield) had been facetious about the imperium in imperio, objected to by the Government. The facts, as now drawn from the English law, worked against that hon. gentleman. If it did not keep such power as was needed to carry it on — if it allowed of such an imperium in imperio — the whole Government would go to the dogs, as some hon. members may desire it should do. But whoever might hereafter hold that seat should not receive it tarnished from his hands, j Even that picture of a man blowing out his brains, or any such consideration, should not prevent him from doing his duty in it. He abided by the declaration he had made yesterday, that the Government would stand or fall on this question. It was not fair to bring forward statements on this subject, as though the Government desired to stifle the question of audit. They had as great a desire as the hon. member (Mr. Brown) for the godd of the country ; but they could not agree to his proposal to establish a system of audit totally

different from that which obtained at home. There, the £ uditors were appointed by the King, and the accounts were audited by persons subject to the entire control of, and to dismissal by, Ministers. For, as to the statement that no one holding office guam div se bene gesscrit could not be removed except by decision of a court of justice, he believed that in such cases, on. misbehaviour, dismissal uouldtake place wholly irrespective of any court, and, if a wrong were done thereby, the person dismissed would have his remedy in a court. The lion, member (Mr. Wakfield) was too ready to take exception at him for proving his statements to be incorrect. Mr. Watcefield said he had complained of a charge of " untruth." The Prov. Secretary would not use strong language, for that was unnecessary when arguments were irrefragable ; though it was easy for some people, like cats, to appear to put forward something very softly; which tamed out no less to have claws behind. Having proved the utter discrepancy of the hon. member's (Mr. Brown's) proposal with the course laid down by English Acts of Parliament, he relied on the support of the hon. member for the city of Wellington (Mr. Moore) on account of that detei mined dislike to do anything repugnant to the British Constitution, which he constantly stated in that House with so much csnJour. And here he would take occasion to repel the insinuation that members supporting the Government attended, as it were, with their votes 5n their pocket. They voted as they liked, and no members of that house were more independent. It had been attempted to shew that the members of Government were desirous of obtaining great power, and wished to be like Governors, and all that. He could only say that he hated and despised everything of the kind. Such an impression had, however, existed, and had been talked of far and wide. He felt bound to clear the- Government from this stigma which had been tried to be affixed to it. Certain members affected to despise office, as conferring no honor, and as if it was only made for unfit persons to be bolstered up in. He did not believe this : he thought every member of the house desired to hold office ; such a desire was a credit to them ; and the pretence that they did not was therefore nothing but claptrap (great laughter). As to his holding two offices,: for his own part he should be very glad only ; to hold one, but he would not put bis Honor in a false position by advising him to fill up an appointment before he thought he could do so suitably. The Government had no adhesive liking to their seats, but as long as they-did hold them they would maintain their die power and authority : for there could not be a more paltry and miserable state of government under the sun than one carried on by s» weak execu tive. (Hear, hear). They had been placed in an unfortunate dilemma by the circumstances relating to Mr. St. Hill. ' Undoubtedly, had that gentleman undertaken, as he first volunteered, to assist the Provincial Government tcmpoianly aud without salary in the audit, he would not have been removed, as far as they were concerned, when a more permanent arrangement should have been made. It was now their duty to attempt to form a Board of Audit ; and as soon as their minds were made up, they would make an unreserved statement to the iriouse. He roust remark the great discrepancy in some members' arguments; who, as to the resignation of their seats by members accepting office, urged that a resolution of the House was useless, and a legifclartve enactment lequired, but who on the question of examining the accounts by the Council, treated the proposed enactment as useless, because the Council had always the power to do the same by a simple resolution. This was the way they rang the changes, — in the same manner, he supposed, as music is produced. As to the parentage of the proposed bill, he would repeat, that the first part was copied from an Act of New South Wales, whose legislators were not very ignorant or inexperienced, and the last part from a law of the State of Massachussetts, whose laws had been so much held up as an example to us. By this bill, the accounts would be published and laid before the House at the beginning of each session : what more could they expect? It would become the duty of the select Committee appointed under the bill, to report on any way of keeping or auditing the public accounts, which might seem to them more perfect : and it would also be competent to them to call in experienced accountants to aid them in the examination. To shew that the Government had been actuated in their course by no desire of jobbing, or unworthy motives, he would ask whether it would not have been easy to make a job of the appointment if they had wished to do so ? Whereas they had gone to a gentleman of whose politics they knew nothing, and who was certainly not known as a supporter of theirs. But since his services were now denied to the Provincial Government, they would seek to form a~Board of Audit, of which information should be immediately, given to the Council. He concluded by saying he should oppose the resolutions, constituting the amendment of the hon. member (Mr. Brown) one and all. Mr. Ludlam said, when the Secretary informed the House that Mr. St. Hill was ap' pointed Auditor, he cske! whether that was to be a permanent appointment ; and having understood that it v.as so, had felt entirely satisfied. He was greatly surprised when the hon. member (Mr. Biown) said Mr^t. Hill had never even been asked to accept the appointment as a permanent one ; because the hon. Secretary had replied to him, that as far as the present Executive Government were concerned the intenticin was that the appointment should be made guam div se bene gesserit. After some discussion between Mr. Ludlam and the Secretary, The Chairman (Mr Revans) said, that as a question of fact seemed to be involved, he would state that Mr. St. Hill had volunteered to render his aid in auditing the accounts, in an interview with the Superintendent at which he (Mr. R.) happened to be present;and when the Superintendent seemed to understand the arrangement as described in this House by the Government, Mr. St, Hill in no way dissented from such arrangement. Now there had been reports in the papers- of what the Government had said on the occasion ; and therefore there seemed, though he

did not quite like to attribute the intention of so behaving to Mr. St. Hill, either spite or indelicacy in not enabling the Government to correct their statement before authorising Mr. Brown to make his statement of that day. Mr. Brown repeated his statement, and that he was authorised by Mr. St Hill to niakp it. [ The Chairman repeated that Mr. St. Hill had in his presence made a volunteer offer to the Superintendent to assist in the Audit, without any mention of Sir George Grey. He (the chairman) had not been surprised at the time, because the gentleman was remarkable for his attachment to either Go*eraors or any one else who happened to be in power. Mr. Bell called the Chairman to order for attacking a most respectable gentleman who could not be present to defend himself. Mr Moore asked when this interview had taken place. The Chairman — Just after the Superintendent moved from that room ; either just before, or just after, the commencement of the Session. If the Superintendent had then been told that it wo* by the desire of the Governor onLyjthat ihe offer had been made, a different feeling would have actuated the Government as to the appointment. There was the appearance of an intention to damage the Government cruelly. * A discussion entusd, as to a con. versation on the subject which Mr. Wakefield had had with Mr. St. Hill some days ago, the Secretary having raised the discussion by stating Mr. St. Hill to have said that some member had such a conversation with him. Mr. Ludlam said he had felt satisfied at the proposal of a permanent Board of Audit. But he did not think this Bill by any means a perfect measure of Audit. In fact there was now no Audit. The officers of such a Board should be, as long as possible, independent of the Executive, and a check upon it. It would be their duty to see a correct appropria tion of the money as voted by the Council. He thought the plan of Audit under the old system had been too harshly spoken of by his hon. colleague (Mr. Wakefield\ because the accounts were then sent to the Board of Audit at home. As to the present Bill, he agreed in the propriety of a supervision of the accounts by the Council ; but without an Auditor first, they would never be able to understand them. He differed with that part of the resolutions which made the sanction of the Council needful to an appointment by the Superintendent ; but, if they were received as a whole for consideration by the Council, he should support the greater part of them. A discussion ensu§d between Messrs. Brandon, Ludlam, Fitzherbert, and Wakefield, as to the proper extent of Auditors' powers in checking a diversion of funds by the Government from one item of expenditure to another. Mr. Mooue raid his reasons for supporting the resolutions were not in any way weakened b} r the discussion which had taken place. He iid not go the whole length *bf them, but he thought they contained the materials for a good system of Audit, which was very desirable, arid should have been established before. When )ie understood Mr. St. Hill's was to be a permanent appointment, he had ielt satisfied, because he felt that the Government were rather hastily driven to make temporary arrangements. But since there was no such appointment, the Audit would be at the bidding of the Executive. If the Government really wished -, to form an efficient Board of Audit, why could they not appoint a real and permanent Auditor as well as a real and permanent Treasurer ? The Auditor should be made, by law, independent and efficient ; and the more complete such an arrangement, the more satisfactory it ought to be to the Government itself. Mr. Bell proposed a middle course by the introduction of a clause authorising the Superintendent to " appoint fit and proper persons" as Auditors, and to make regulations for the conduct of their business. He should have agreed to the first proposal of the Government ; but under the altered circumstances with regard to Mr. St.- Hill, another arrangement became necessary/ He was of opinion that the appointment of an Auditor independent of the Executive might make the office of Superintendent a distasteful one to any gentleman, and therefore could not give his support to the resolutions. The Prov. Secretary agreed to the proposed addition. Mr. Wallace quoted the Constitution Act, to shew that, by making the Superintendent's warrant necessary to the issue of money, a sufficient check on the expenditure of the public funds was already provided. Mr. Brown briefly replied, defending his own manner of speaking from remarks made upon it by the hon. Secretary in the course of the disenssiom- He was earnest on the subject, and therefore spoke warmly ;- but he trusted that he never uttered language of a kind to offend a single member of that House ; and he was surprised at being taken to task by the hon. Secretary, who sometimes did exercise that sort of care in speaking,- and sometimes did not. (Cheers and laugh*er). As for the parentage of the Government Bill, so much vaunted by the hon. Secretary — one part from a convict colony, and another from a very Radical American State ; — it seemed to him as heterogeneous a mixture as though you should form an animal with the leg of a man, the wing of a bird, and the tail of S. fish ! (Roars of laughter). On a division Mr. Brown's resolutions were negatived, — Messrs. Brown, Hart, i.u"dlam, Moore, and Wakefield voting for them, and Mossrs. Fitzherbert, Braridon, Bethune, Dorset, Daniell, ( Watt, Lyon. Bell, and Wallace against them. Mr. Bell's clause was then added to the Bill. The Chairman reported progress, and the House adjourned within a few minutes- of midnight.