TUESDAY, JANUARY 17th.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 884, 21 January 1854, Page 4

TUESDAY, JANUARY 17th.

Mi;. Ludlam brought n.p the report of Road ! Committee, which with the evidence was ordered to be printed. The Speaker informed the Council that the Superintendent bad given his assent to the Loan Bill, the Ferry Bill, and the Medical Board Bill.

FENCING BILL* The Council went into Committee on the Fencing Bill. / On clause 5 being read Mr. Brandon in answer to some objections urged by Mr. Brown said, this hill was intended for° agricultural districts and did not apply to any pastoral districts; questions reUting to stray cattle would come under the Cattle Trespass and Impounding Acts. Mr. Brown said by this law it was in effect declared that in certain districts the plough should not come, but he would remind the Government they were not legislating for flockowners only, but for the whole province. Mr. Wakbeibld: Thehon, and learned Solicitor said that the Bill did not apply, to any pastoral district. There was not a word in the Bill which showed that pastoral districts would be exempt from the operation of the law. The hon, member had no doubt got some scheme of general or partial exemption in his head, which he intended to carry out by means of the Superintendent's power to exempt districts ; but the public knew nothing about that scheme. According to the Bill, the mere pleasure or caprice of his Honor's advisers would determine what districts should be exempt from it ; for the Superintendent must either take their advice on the subject, or dismiss them. Under the powers given to the Executive by the Bill, his Honor's advisers might apply the law to one man's estate, and not to anothers. There was nothing in the Bill to prevent \ them from applying the law to any one section of 100 acres, and leaving all the rest of the Province exempt. That was, in his (Mr. W's.) opinion, a great defect. It was only within the last few days that he had been able to learn at all how the measure was viewed out of doors ; and even now his information on that poiot was scanty ; for only twenty copies of the Bill were printed, and he had never been able .to procure one. So far as he could learn, the power given to the Executive to apply or suspend ths operation of the law at pleasure in this or that district, would not give satisfaction to the public. The ProV. Secretary said he had listened with attention to the hon. member who had failed to make him' comprehend what be meant, but this be we uld attribute to his own ignorance ; meantime he would state what he believed to be the meaning' of the act and its application. The Fencing Act ' could not be construed to affect persons holding licenses from the Crown. From the observations of the hon. member as to the capricious application of the law in different districts they might be led to expect the Government would introduce the Act in the harbour, and call on a vessel like the Northfleet to fence itself in all round. The Fencing Act was intended to apply to certain districts where farming was carried on, and where there was a certain amourft of Stock. Until a certain amount of experience bad been arrived at, individnal cases of hardship would occur under the -Act, but that would be the fault of the intending agriculturist in fixing on the wrong spot. But it would be said how was the agriculturist to be protected f He would answer, in the case of small farmers they would associate by going with others, and thus be protected from aggression. With the man of large means, justice demands that he who has the fee simple of the land should bear the bursthen. The broad bounds of justice required that the person who goes into a run should bear the expence of fencing, that the owner of the land and not the licensee should pay for improvements. Hardly a law was passed that did not invc'lveindividual cases of hardship. In the present state of the law small proprietors would settle with others, but where an individual found so desirable spot as to go and settle in the middle of a run, others would speedily follow, and before many years he would bave the benefit of the Fencing Act. Mr. LtJDLAM taid the question now under discussion was a very important one, and although it bad received considerable discussion in this House, be considered they should be careful in coming to a conclusion, every member roust feel that this was a question between the two great interests of the Colony ; if the flock master on his run is exempted from joining in the expense of fencing, the farmer will consider the former to be unduly protected, and such at first sight might seem to be the casL — on the other hand if the flock master was compelled to pay for fencing on his run he wonld complain, and with great justice, that such a law must ruin him, as be would be compelled to pay for fencing that might next day be taken from him by any person buying the piece of land on his run* Considering the large number of stockbwners who are members of this House, they ought to givß-lhe fairest and most just consideration to this point. ' His opinion was, that the Government should take such steps to protect the agricultural interest as would prevent any collision between the two interests, be thought one of the best means to do that would be for the Government to set apart a block of the best land in every district

', Act^^^^^^^^^HH^p L.) felt^^^Bßunlfl" done, ill feeli^|Prßrar!se bewhich he should deplore is dqPl^Wßfcqth.. When they considered tHe large amt*ji£%f wool shipped from, so youngs . Colony, htf felt that the pastoral interest should be fairly protected, for if measures were* passed to ruin thJat interest, they would ' soon have 'the' agricultural, interest following it. He doubted whether in the event of the pastoral interest' being done away, the land would be so fast occupied as at the present time. With these views He should support the exemption of runholders in sharing the expenses of fencing, feeling that it was impossible to compel runholders to come under the principle of a fencing act without saying they were determined to ruin them ; no one would dispute the fact that to compel stockowners to fence wouH be tantamount to saying to them, you shall not breed stock; Mr. Bell would repeat the observation he had made on a previous occasion, that the lease to the, stockowner was a license only to occupy the land' to which he had no right of possession ; he occupied the land and made it available for settlement, but all investment and labour bestow.cd by him on the' land would, from his insecure tenure, be utterly .thrown away.- 1 1> was necessary -that the powers conferred by this Act should be placed' somewliere, and he thought it better they, were, entrusted to the head of the Government than in, any other hands. It would be the best course to leave it to the Superintendent to declare in what' districts the Act should be brought into operation^ Mr. Wakefjeld said that his hon. relative (Mr. Bell)<hadinot exactly-taken his view of the subject. WHat he objected to was placing sueh 1 an immense power over private property in. the" hands of his Honor's two advisers. Under free institutions private rights were never so subjected to Executive interference. If there must be ex>» eroption, which' he did not' deny,— if there were* good reasons for exempting certain districts from the operation of the law — why should the districts to be exempted be selected' by the two mem* bers of that Council who were his Honor's advisers, rather than by the Council itself., His bon. relative said that cases might suddenly arise when the Council was not sitting, and that. one had just arisen — that of the completion of arrangements for the small farms in the Wairarapa — such as would call for a. prompt extension of (be law to some district. But the case in question haoVnot arisen suddenly : it was six months old at least: and districts could never suddenly 5 change their character, from' pastoral to agricultural. The Council, if it, had' the power, might always use it in good 1 time ; andthen the question' of exemption would* always be determined 1 by' public opinion. If it were left to the' Executive alone, it would be determined in a closet, and, might therefore be determined capriciously* Tbe Prov. Secretary concurred in the view taken by Mr. Bell. An hon. member (Mr. Wakefield) had brought charges of mystery and caprice, and deciding in a closet, as applicable tp the acts of the Executive. The hon. member had assumed the office of professor, and had de* livered' several long political lectures, the student had paid bis fee, had been exceedingly attentive, and furnished himself with a note book to profit by the lectures. The members and public were in this position, and they found at last that towards the cml of the lectures all the doctrines that had been previously advanced were obliterated* and that they had to begin ab ovo. These dark decisions would be made by the Executive in the time present and in all time to come, they would not merely relate to property but would apply in every 5 case. They should really and truly resolve to be open and above board, and have none 1 of these dark doings. He got up to make these observations, for arguments were no,t necessary to refute such charges.' But for this exception they), would have to come to this $ instead of granting' a lease to the runholder which should 1 be merely^ a license to depasture, stock, they, would have to, give him a beneficial interest in the soil, as .bad' been done in an adjoining colony. But here the 1 runholder was so thoroughly a tenant at willj that' he was liable to be ousted any'.morriing., Yon, cannot reduce him to this' position,' and, force him, to pay for improvements, without annihilation. It had been said the only thing wanting 1 at, Cante- | bury, was the right of premptioq' over the, runs.,! He thanked God no one was bold enough to advo. that principle here. No man would gain such immense property without paying a low 1 ptice ; but, as ! he wpuldj not allow sueh 1 a right .to , the, stockholder, neither would he impose these heavy, burdens on them. Mr. Brown complained that the Provincial' Secretary had indulged in personal' insinuation!, hut bad not attempted to meet fairly the argil- | ments advanced against the principle of the bill, j Jl^r. Moore would perhaps nothave risen on , this occasion, but for a remark by the Pr,6v. S'e- ; cretary .about some clue to the, opposition to the , Bill. Now he bad always stated as, clearly, as he ' was able that bis opposition was founded upon ; totally different groiinds to those referred 1 to. The .principle upon wbicthe objected toth'eJßill^as!, that it gave the power to alienate the land of one party*, who got no value or consideration for it, for the purpose of fcptfferrihg a value attd betiefit' on the )and of his' neighbours;, who s revived tbe whole thereof. He also objected s to us tendency! to deter from agricultural pareuirs; which, in his- opinion, it ought to be tbepoHcy of ; every measure to'foWer and^encoofage : tbVpa's- , torsi; interest 'required ho such' fostering, jt^was a' wealthy, well-established interest, and was well able to protect itself. Now all admitted that When these two interests' ctime into collision, that some hardship and some case's of injustice must occur. Who w,as.,to bear this, the weakest or the strongest, those most able or those least able? Then be thought that in case* where the stockowner had been compelled tp payfor fencing, which by , being obliged to .vacate t^e would cease to benefit 1 by, . a clause might >le inserted in the Bill by which he should be repaid its value by the: party 'for whose benefit' he gaye 1 way. ,He thought 1 the Executive <qu'ght to have power to determine, the, -districts and extent witbja which the, bill should, be* brought into operation, which in his opinion was a wise provision/ and would afford opportunities of doing 7 right when exceptional ' cases might occur ; and be hoped the suggestion made in regard to reserving blocks for agricultural purposes in every district would be well considered by the Government,; he thought this to be a most necessary provision. He supposed the bill would pass, still he should not cease to protest

I against its injustice and unfairness; and if it 'did pass, lie -hoped it would be disallowed. ' , Mr. Wakefibld said he was sore that the chairman, after permitting the hon. Secretary to ■ay so much which had no relation to the question before them, would permit him (Mr. W.) to make a very few observations in reply. H& would' take no notice of most of the irrelevant matter* which' had been introduced by the hon. gentleman.. The hon. Secretary .reproached him with inconsistency in to-day supporting, the grant rot large powers to the Executive, and to-morrow objecting to the grant of such powers. But the cases were totally different. ' It was true that in certain speeches to the House, which the hon. Secretary was pleased to call " lectures," he had supported the Government in its demand for large powers ; but he'had, invariably, on such occasions, explained why he thought the power'necessary • and, in like.manner on other occasion*,' when he wished to preserve the control of the Council, »b yesterday with respect to the audit of public accounts/he had stated why he thought that the power of the Executive ought to be limited and kept under control. In the present case, bis object had been to defend the rights of private property against Executive interference without ant guard or check from legislative control. Hehad meant no sneer 1 , but had spbketf duite, seriously, when he. said, .that the decision's, as to whoseiptoperty should .be. '.subject to this law, and whose not, would bedecidedlin'a cloiet, rteither the public nor the owner of the property knowing anything, about' iC That, he ( would, re^ p'eat^waa inconsistent with the respect which constitutional legislatures generally paid to the rights of 'private' 1 property. The Prov. Secretary begged to assure the hon. member for Wellington (Mr. Moore)' the' observations he had made were not intended to sipply to him.' If power to receive compensation we're- given to the Holders' of runs on leaving, the owners of runs would stilf really not be benefited.' There was no diminution of the license fee. Mr. Clifford said hon.. members bad treated the question as though these interests were antagonistic, but' he protested against' such a view of the question, as any thing which tended to injure one interest would ruin the other. Being a stockowner hjmself it might be supposed he would tf.ke a partial view of the question. A great many settlers on their arrival had landed with ploughs and' harrows which they had found to be useless, until thai stockholder penetrated the country and found out a communication between the different districts, and formeda footing for the agriculturist. The stockowner would not be content with merely running his stock' over the land, but looked foYward, as a. natural consequence, to invest his gains in the land; and to become domiciled in the - country. 5 but if'such restraints were imposed upon him it would not be worth bis while to 1 invest; The agriculturist could not skip over districts without roads, until roads were formed he could not go into the heart of the country for the purpose of agriculture ; besides, they would not go singly, but' would settle in bodies, leaving the rest of the country to the stockholder. No stockfarmer would occupy land which was available for the purposes of agriculture. But what would be the effect of strikiog out this clause. If an individual had a spite against a stockfarmer, by this act he could purchase 80 acres in the heart of his run and fence ii in, and compel the stockowner to pay b» lf, he would then repeat the operation, and as often as he did so the stockowner would be compelled to retire before biro, and he subjected to a heavy expense from which he derived no benefit. He was satisfied that one interest could j not be injured without inflicting a corresponding injury on the other. Some further discussion took place in which Mr. Brandon, Mr. Wakefield, and Mr. Bell joined, when the clause was adopted^ The consideration of some other clauses was proceeded with, after which the Chairman reported progress, and the House adjourned.