Wednesday, December 28.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 878, 31 December 1853, Page 3

Wednesday, December 28.

> INCREASING THE NUMBER OF MEMBERS. Mr. Wakgfield, as he was suffering from indisposition, requested the indulgence of the House while he should address them in support of a Resolution, affirming that the number of the members of that Council ought to be increased. There were two collateral points on which he wonld say a few words, before noticing the main question. He thought it desirable that, before examining the reasons which might be " urged for increasing their numbers, their attention should be given to a different subject — the greatness and the novelty of the legislative powers conferred upon them by the Constitution' Act. Their powers of legislation were derived from those words of the Consti-tution-Act which enabled them to "make laws for peace, order, and good government ;" the largest, the moat comprehensive form of words, that is ever used, or that language supplies, for . the' purpose of conferring legislative authority. Subject to the Governor's veto, and with the exception of certain reserved matters of legislation, which are clearly defined, a Superintendent und Provincial Council are a supreme legislature for their Province ; in fact a local Parliament. This, together with the division of a country no larger than New Zealand into six distinct Governments foi local purposes, was the most remarkable feature of their new Constitution : and this decentralization or localization of governing authority was not merely singular, but without precedent or parallel in the history of constitution-making for dependencies. Never before had there been any thing very like it. Under the system which most resembled v—thatu — that which planted thirteen English colonies in America, and founded the United States — the extent of territory placed under a single legislature was generally so very large — often much larger than the whole of these Islands — that there was not, because there could not be, any but the naort imperfect go.

verntnent for portions of territory distant from the seat of authority. It was just so in Canada at this moment, where, although representative institutions, with strict ministerial responsibility, were fnlly and firtnly established, yet, for portions of the color.y lying hundreds of miles from the seat of Government, there was scarcely any government. And it should be borne in mind that the thirteen English colonies in America did not enjoy constituent powers. Their powers of legislation depended on their charters of Government, which they could hot alter, which conld only be altered by the Crown ; and so jealous were they of any interference with their j political privileges, "so fearful were they of any diminution of their rights as freemen, that, speaking generally, they clung to their constitutions unaltered, rather than run the risk of incurring deterioration by asking for improvement. No where, he believed, at any time, in the colonial empire of Britain, still less in the colonies of any other nation, was the power of " making laws for peace, order, and good government " localized as it now is in New Zealand by our present constitution. The constituent power wliich the Resolution before the House asked them to exercise, is an absolute novelty, as respects supreme functions in six subordinate or provincial legislatures. This was the part of the constitution which he (Mr. W.) prized above all others ; which he would surrender any other part rather than lose ; and, in saying so, he believed that he spoke the general opinion throughout the colony of those who might be termed politicians. For himself, he would declare, that if the choice were put to him between retaining the six Provincial Governments without a General Assembly, and retaining the General Assembly without the Provincial Governments, he should reject the General and keep the Provincial Institutions. At the same time he could not but admit that the very idea of constituent power to be exercised in that Council, was so new, so strange to the minds of the settlers, that members of the Council might naturally hesitate, and be disposed by a sort of timklitv to abstain from constituent legislation during the present session. That indeed had been his own impression some time ago; but it had been altered by conversation out of doors with members and others, amongst whom he found a general concurrence of opinion, more or less clearly expressed, in favour of immediate legislation on some constitutional questions. Nevertheless, considering the novelty of such questions in a practical form, he felt bound to lay down the principles of the proposed resolution with more care, and with a greater fulness of exposition, than would have been necessary if the subject had been familiar to the public mind. He would also request attention to what would be a good reason for their discussing constitutional questions* however strange such questions might be to the thoughts of the settiers. It was, that the strangeness of such question*, with the indispositio ato examine them , I was an evil which would continue until they should be made familiar to the public mind by means of public enquiry and discussion. And what sort of enquiry and discussion would be most effectual ? Not that t>f an abstract and didactic kind, such as was furnished by books or lectures, but enquiry and discussion with a practical aim, with a real present object, like debates in that Council room, where words were converted into laws. One main object of their debates was to form and mocilJ public opinion with regard to the legislative wants of the Province ; an object of which surely one might say, that the sooner it was accomplished the better, and which would be as soon a? possible brought about by their debates', because they had the po"wev to make laws deeply affecting the community. In illustration of the influence on public opinion of debates in a Legislative Assembly, he would cite a remark which had been made on the of the Duke of Wellington. His speeches were remarkable for the absence of rhetorical force ; but it had been said oi" them, when, more than any other man, he guided tW British legislature, that they had so much weight with the public because the words of power have the potent influence of fact and laVr. But some might think *hat the Council had enough of common business on its hands, without discussing constitutional questions. Therefore he would ask why should they not do both — both pass empowering laws, settle estimates, raise money by loan, provide for roadfe, and other such like work of immediate urgency, and also, by considering questions like the present, show that they were a legislature not incapable of using the high powers which had been conferred on them ? For his own share in the debate — for having taken on himself the task of raising this constitutional question, instead of waiting till it should he introduced by some ether member, and then contributing what he might be able towards its solution — he had to plead an excuse to which he requested the indulgent attention of the House. The House might have observed before now that the subjects which interested him most were those relating to the policy and machinery of Government. Every man, with any earnestness in his character, had some favourite pursuit. One delighted in travelling, another in music, a third in literature, a fourth in making money, and so on. His own, for many years back, had been trying, and helping, to make constitutions for colonies, and to establish and improve them. But amongst all the " labours of love" of that kind in wliich he had been engaged, none— not even excepting his share in giving effect in Canada to the recommendations of Lord Durham's Report, whereby ministerial responsibility was first established in a colony — had interested him so much as the part which he had been able to take in the means whereby these novel Provincial Governments were obtained for New Zealand. The idea of so many Provincial Governments, with such high legislative functions, was first broached by him as long as nearly eight years ag-o, and was at first received with objection, with aversion, and even with no little ridicule, by nearly all the politicians and states- ! men to whom it was communicated. Not long after its conception, the plan was communicated to Lord Grey and to the Governor of New Zealand. He found it set forth, supported by the very arguments which had accompanied it, in a despatch from Sir Gecge Grey to Earl j Orey, which was printed, by the side of the Constitution Act, in the official book then in his I hand. The Governor's adoption of the plan and the arguments had been so very useful —

I had so materially assisted in fretting the plan into favour at the Colonial Office — that he (Mr. \V.) should he thel.iM- tn rompl.iin of him for havin«* appninri ucd without uck'nowl^dsrment idea 0 wh'dj wore not !rs own. Rut, after the statement with which he had troubled the House, they would understand why he felt a sort of personal attachment to these Provincial Governments, and of what nature the impulse was which prompted his desire to improve them. Unquestionably, they were open to much improvement. He should he amongst tl.e last to deny that they exhibited serious imperfections. For his own part, though he mentioned it solely by wav of example, he doubted the expediency of the Governor's veto 01 Provincial laws relating to strictly local matters. He would not allude to other defects, but would now come to the insufficiency of the number of members in that Council, which he wished them to acknowledge. Even J in England, when the Constitution Act was before Parliament, some of its most earnest promoters, including one well known to them all, Mr. Fox, and himself, were desirous that the minimum number of members in each Council should, by the Constitution itself, be fixed at 30 ; but when they found that they could not carry this point without pressing it on the Government, they gave it up, because the whole bill was "always in the utmost jeopardy, nnd they were afraid it might be withdrawn if it were made troublesome to the Government. Still they had gained the point indirectly : they had obtained for the Provincial Councils both the power and an invitation to increase the number of their members. The power was given to them by their authority to " make laws for peace, order, and good government ;" and the invitation would be found in clause 27 of the Constitution Act, which provided that, amongst other Provincial law? to be " reserved " by the Superintendent for the Governor's assent, should be any for " altering the number of the members of a Coudcil." Knowing this, and having had his attention fixed upon the subject, he had taken pains to learn the state of opinion amongst meirhers and others with regard to the point in question ; and he could state that he hart not met even one persou who, after reflection, doubted that the number of members in the Council might be beneficially augmented. In the course of his enquiries, he had been able to collect a variety of reasons in favour of such a measure. These, his own as well as those of others with whom he had conversed, he would now lay before the House. In the first place, it was generalh admitted, that in all probability, after the interesting novelty of iheir proceedings had passed away, the average number of members attending Council for working purposes, would not exceed two-thirds of the whole. Hitherto the attendance of members had been remarkably assiduous ; but it was not to be expected that, in the long run, I more would be constantly present than what was known to be the ordinary proportion of constant working members in legislative bodies, which was less thaa two-thirds. Then it was felt by a kind of instinct, without the aid of any reasoning, that twelve working member* would be too few for working purposes. In the next place, it seemed clear, that co few as eighteen members, still more twelve, as being there to represent the public, would be apt, in far too large a proportion, to fall under the influence of the Executive. That was, he thought, an in* disputable proposition, which no argument was required to maintain. On the other hand, he was himself of opinion that with only eighteen members of Council, and still more with only twelve commonly in attendance, both the Executive and the Council would often be exposed to serious inconvenience from the frequent want of that general support of the Executive en ordinary occasions, which wasindispensible to the beneficial working of responsible government in a legislative body. In such bodies, when the number of members was ample, there was always a considerable proportion of members disposed on ordinary occasions to support the Government, without being its partizans. Were it not so, the Government, under the system of ministerial responsibility, would often &ai its measures impeded, and even stopped, when those measures were agreeable to a majority of the whole legislature and the community. In such rases, the Executive members might have to talk about resigning when there was no call for such a step — when they had not really lost, but o.jly appeared to have lost, the confidence of the majority. In that Council, with its present number of members, such embarrassments mitrht easily arise. He came now to a reason for augmenting their numbers, which had great weight with him. He believed, judging by all experience, that it was simply impossible to carry on beneficially the system of responsible government without the aid of party. He could not understand how ministerial responsibility could be constantly enforced, unless there were always some members of the legislature differing to some extent from the Executive members, and so forming an opposition, who should be ready to take the places of the Ministers whenever they forfeit the confidence of the public and the majority of its representatives. The existence of such a minority, liable to become the majority, and looking to office as the means of carrying out their own views, was an essential feature of the responsible system. The systeni, so Worked, was called government by party ; and he ventured to remind those who ! objected to the words, and who most disliked the corruption, the passions, and other evils of party government, that such had been the government of England ever since constitutional ideas prevailed there, and that an eminent English statesman, whose experience of party government was unsurpassed — he meant Lord John Russell — had said, that "party is the price which we pay for freedom." He had seen the doctrine exemplified in Canada. Having been there when the responsible system was first attempted, just after party divisions and ties had been broken up by civil war, he had observed that it did not work well till new parties were formed and organized. It seemed to be an essential portion of the machinery whereby free government was carried on ; for nowhere amongst Englishmen was there free government without it. Now who could doubt that the number of membei9 in that Council was insufficient to admit of the existence of two parties there, one in office, and the other keeping it in order by watching it. and being always ready to take its place ? The most obvious of

the advantages of party government was the publicity which the rivalry of parties gives to all that concerns the public ; hut, with a legislature containing s»o ft* v memliais a* tllit Council. whether or nor di^H % rl 1 \to rhal parlies, there rnu*t be a tendency to the "eltlenient of important questions in private, hy concert amongst members ogt of the Council Room ; a practice which could not but be attended by the two evils of diminishing the good effect of public observation on the members, and of keeping the public in ignorance of the grounds on which important questions were decided. Those were very serious evils. He would now indicate one, as arising from deficiency of members, which was of a more general character. It seemed to him impossible that the representation of a community such as theirs by no more than eighteen persons, could accomplish the great object of all representation, which is to create in the legislature an image of public opinion. AH interests and opinions, whether those of a majority or a minority, ought to be reflected in the Council in the proportion they bore to each other amongst the community; which could never happen till they increased the number of their members. He had observed too, although no one had been more pleased and interested than himself by their past procee lings, that their debates, as was inevitable when addressed to so few, and so few took part in discussions, were more like talk in a parlour, or subdued remarks in a nominee Council, than the deliberations of every popular legislature, whose public spii it, whose elevation of tone, whose ccmuleteness of investigation and exposition, whose order even and decorum, were known by long experience to be rnainlv occasioned hv the presence of number?. With regard to the last pomt — the order and decorum of their proceedings — he would observe, that although, happily* they had so far escaped everything like a scere of disorder, such discreditable events were far more likely to occur among a small body, meeting with different opinions and views, than amongst one so large that the mere number of its members constituted what might he termed a police for decorum and politeness* He had now stated the principal reasons that occurred to him why the number of their members ought to be increased. But he was ready to acknowledge that the considerations on which he had dwelt, were not those which would determine the proper number of members as a legislative body, in the mind of one who had paid no serious attention to the subject. Ask such, a person by what rule should the question be determined, and he would answer, without delay because without reflection, that the only rule is a due proportion of members to the population represented. That was the common idea with those to whom ibe subject Was new : and it had been acted on in New Zealand, where the number of members in 'the different Provincial Councils had been carefully proportioned to" the various amounts of population in the different Provinces. But the House would see that the principle w*s very erroneous, if they would be so good as to go along with him to the bottom of the subject ; he meant to the origin of representation. Representation was not an essential condition of free government. In a very small community of freemen, all of them might without inconvenience assemble to make laws for their own government, as had actually been done by the citizens of the Greek and Roman republics. After a time, no doubt,- as population increased and became spread over a larger surface- of territory, the warn of representation was extremely inconvenient ; it had even proved fatal to many of the anci nt republics, none of which had discovered the only remedy for the evils of attempting to assemble the whole of a. large and scattered communiiy as a legislature. That discjvpry had been made by our own race," but they had not always employed it. Many of the charters of government under which the Anglo-American colonies were founded, provided that the laws should be made by " the freemen or their delegates": and in several cases, the whole body of freemen used to meet a 9 a legislature for years, until the increase of numbers compelled them to resort to the election of* delegates. la all these cases, the original number of representatives appears to have had no special reference to the amount of population, but to have been determined by a regard to the sufficient number for legislative purposes in a popular assembly. In like manner, the number of the members of the House of Commons had not been increased so as to correspond with a doubling and even, trebling of the population: it remained the same for ages ; and nobody now thought of increasing it, because the present number was seen to be enough for all the objects of legislation by a representative body. Canada supplied another illustration. When it consisted of two perfectly distinct colonies* each of which had a Governor, a Legislative Council, and a House of Representatives, one government being seated at Quebec and the other at Toronto* the number of representatives in Lower Canada was 64, and in Upper Canada, about the same number : yet when the two colonies were united under a single legislature — when the population represented by a % single body was doubled — even since, when it has grown from about 4C0.000 in each colony, to a'>out 2,000,00 Q in the united colony — the number of representatives is only 84. In so providing for representatives in Canada under different circumstances, the Imperial Parliament had not been guided by any notion that representatives ought to be in proportion to the number represented (though that of course was a consideration which should not be overlooked) but by the sort of considerations which had been that day brought to the notice of the House. U6 trusted that these considerations might induce the House to adopt the resolution proposed by him : but, as all rules had exceptions, as nothing was so right but that objections to it would exist, compelling a choice on the balance of good and evil.so.in this case.therewere objections to his proposal ; and these he would state distinctly. He had heard but of two. The first was, that the Province would not supply a much larger number of members in that Council ; that the fit men did not exist for enabling the Council to double, for example, the number of its members. He coald not help dissentingentirely from that view. Though willing to defer to the opinion of the old colonist who had mentioned this objection to him, he thought that he could himself name 18 settlers who nnght be brought into the Council with adva.u«

tage to its proceedings and to the public. But if it were otherwise — if the Province did not yet contain a sufficient number of persons eligible as members — how could the desired 'change be so soon brought about, as by increasing the number of settlers taking part in the practical business of legislation ? By what means could men not yet qualfied to engage in 'that business, so soon be made qualified for the work, as by subjecting them to the influence of having to share in the discussions and resolves of the Council. In particular, there appeared to him a deficiency •in the other than the deficiency of numbers, and indeed arising from it, for which he thought that they could not too soon provide a remedy ; he meant a deficiency of direct , representation for those who were called the working classes. They had but one member who directly represented the working part of the community ; and although, as he was not present, he (Mr. W.) might without impropriety say, that he had shewn himself perfectly qualified to represent the order to which he belonged, and to which he did honor, yet it seemed most desirable that a larger number of such men should be brought into the Council, so that the interests of those who composed the great majority of the elector?, should be more fully, because more directly, represented. The second objection which he had heard, was that i( members were paid for their services, and the number of members were increased, there would be more to pay. Tbat was self-evident; and he (Mr. W.) readily admitted that a full representation of the community would be -somewhat more costly than a partial representation : bat he trusted that the House would nit be deterred, by the consideration of a small increase of expense, from doing what would make the Provincial Council as ft as possible for accomplishing the objects of a legislature fully representing the. people. If the proposed . resolution should be adopted by the House, he hoped that a bill for giving effect to it might be brought in by the Government. If the prin- • ciplesto which he bad confined himself inaddress--ing them, should be affirmed by the House, the task of framing; a practical measure in accordance with them, would be more suitably performed by the Government than by any independent . member. And if the Government -should so determine,. he doubted not that they would take into their consideration the serious inconveniences, which might arise from a considerable increase of members without some new arrangement of electoral districts. He was not aware of any other political constituency which elected to many as seven representative* at once : if (be uumbcr were increased to fourteen, the evils pf 10 imperfect a distribution of the franchise, which he would Dot detain the houie by particolariziog, mutt be rery much aggravated. In <*. measure for adding 10 their numbers, they would molt suitably, provide for an adequate md imps nial attribution of electoral rights. He would now bring bis remarks to a conclusion. .'ln doing so, he begged permission to dwell for a moment on the main object of his resolution, and •of the arguments with which he had troubled them. It wu vb«t th&Proviocisl Council should, tt least as respects nil that depends upon numbers, be m«de to resemble as much as possible, not the council of t Town Corporation, but a genuine Legislative Assembly. He believed, tbat if they could not grow into a local Parliament for the making of laws', and the enforcement of responsibility in executive Government, they would be apt to degenerate into something resembling a Town Council, which existed for the making of bye-laws, and which itself carried such law* into effect by means of its own officers, without any distinct executive power. If that should happen to them, they must devise some other kind of responsibility for the Executive than that which they btd adopted • for responsible government, as 4hey professed to adopt it— .at It obtained under every Parliamentary system •that worked well — wat wholly inapplicable to the proceedings of a mayor with his Court of aldermen and common-councillors. However much they might desire it, he donbted their ability to establish ministerial responsibility pletely, unless they made the legislature more important, a more thorough image of the public mind, more 'like a Parliament, than it was as now constituted. They should not forget that whenever the General Assembly should meet, their jurisdiction would be extended to subject* of- the utmost consequence, vrith which they coold not now constitutionally interfere, when it : would be more than ever expedient that the plan of ministerial responsibility should be fully developed and firmly established. Considering the great powers they had already, and those which they were sure lo obtain soon, he prayed that no time might be lost in doing whatever might be necessary in order that the Superintendent and Council, instead of bearing any resemblance to a town mayor with his assistants in town management, should be a real Parliament for the province, with a responsible Executive Government • to far, at least, as all that was possible consistently with the unity of New Zealand, with tbt importance and dignity of the colony as a whole, and with the preservation of their aliegianct to tbat great empire which they were helping to extend, and which its rulers seemed likely to perpetuate by their new wisdom in conferring Parliamentary powers of government updn its colonies. The Prov. Secretary cordially concurred with tbeframerof the resolution, and while agreeiug with the spirit of his proposkion, thought the j progress of businest would bt more effectually promoted by his making such a declaration at once, than by attempting to tnaguify little points of difference, and thereby destroy the merit due to i!a introduction. He entirely concurred in the principle put forward, and any remarks be ahould offer would not be in contradiction or diminution, but rather in support of it. While listening to the statement so clearly and ably made by the tyo. mover, and the able remaika by which it had been enforced, he thought it very desirable not to attempt to grasp so much as to endanger the principle they were desirous of bringing to ita consummation. He thought they should be cautious in not framing a bill which abonld be so extensive in its provisions as to render it difficult for the Governor to give bis assent to it, without atultifjing bis previous arrangements. The Council should bear in mind, in the course the Government would pursue if vhe House adopted the present resolution, that while bringing in a bill in accordance with the resolution, they would

not pledge themselves as to the number to which it might be expedient to increase the House. He could not admit the remark that numbers were cot the foundation of representation, nor that there was any fortunate, any golden number, which a Representative Council contained within itself. Neither could he assent to the statement that, if the number of the Council was not increased it would degenerate into a Municipal Counc'l. Without quoting numbers he would safely assert that many corporations were equal in number to the present Council. He did not think a small number would infringe on, nor a large number secnre the full efficiency of the Constitution. Neither did be agree in the reference which had been made to ancient countries. When they were small in number and had met in assemblies of the people instead of electing representatives, they had done so not because of the smallness of their numbers, but of their ignorance of the iepresentative system. He would now advert to one or two points with which he entirely agreed. If any question should at any time arise as to the existence of Provincial Councils or of the General Government, he should feel no hesitation in abandoning the General Government in favour of Provincial Councils. He was led to such a conclusion from the geographical peculiarities of New Zealand. Without deciding to whom the credit was due of suggesting Provincial Council* ; he would a»ert that Provincial Councils tested their importance on the peculiar geographical traits of the country. There was no community of interests between the different Provinces which would justify their absorption in one central Government. <He considered ihe system now 4n force eminently ad«pte^\to the genius of the people. He could not but advert to the peculiarity of- the Constifution, in its permissive and expansive character. The Imperial Parliament bad hi effect said to the people of New Zealand choose for yourself, and had laid down tbe framework of Government, leaving the colonists to fill up the details, and he was of opinion the future greatness of tbe country depended in a great measure on their freedom to mould tbe Constitution Act-so as to fit their particular case. He regarded the present discussion with particular interest, but while be should be prepared to enter mort fully into it on another occasion, be deemed it inapt to prosecute the subject much further at present. The hon. member dwelt on tbe griat advantage of Local Councils, and tbe wisdom of Parliament in granting them, and contended that the necessity for giving local Councils had been aeen by the people of Wellington from the first, that no system of Government r/ould have answered their expectations but that of Local self Government, If he bad not said this it might be inferred some new piece of machinery was now proposed, a new gift that had never been made use of. He had said so much to shew this machinery was fully appreciated, and that all that was wanting was to develope its inherent goodness. With reference to the existence of party, when some time since he had promulgated this doctrine, it had been objected to, but in carrying out Responsible Government it obviously followed that one party would be watched by •another. Tbe same principle was frequently carried out in the- ordinary affairs of life, and kept men to thelevel of their duty. The hon. member concluded by recapitulating tbe arguments he had used, and by stating that if the Council should accede to the proposition before them he should bo prepared to bring in * bill to carry oat tb.3 principle affirmed by it, Mr. Lddlam said he was not much versed in constitutional questions, but on so important a one as the present, he should venture to express an opinion. He agreed with the bon. member (Mr. W.) that as soon as the novelty of the Council had passed away, they could not expect so foil an attendance as had taken place, and considered some credit was due to members for so regular an attendance, but if in this, at it often is in an adjoining colony, there was not a full attendance of members, then the present number would be found to small. Taking twelve members as a fair number who would regulaily at tend, he thought that number too few to discuss and pass good laws for tbe Province ; & larger number would give a fuller discussion to all subjects brought before the Council, and members would gain information from hearing others' opinions, and the public would benefit by having a fuller consideration given to any Bill proposed to be passed, A great advantage would be gained by an extension of its number in ths appointment of committees ; at present he believed seven or eight committees were appointed consisting of five members in each, and yet they only had seventeen members to compose them. He was fully of opinion that the real business of tbe House would be best dose by referring subjects to select committees for their report ; the members would often obtain information from those reports which perhaps under other circumstances they would not be in a position to do. Another strong reason for increasing the numbers of members is, the hope entertained that when the General Assembly met it would band over to tbe Provincial Councils the management of the waste lands, when many grave questions would arise as to the purchase of land from the natives, and its sale and management. For some years to- come the Provincial Councils would probably be the most useful and powerful in this colony, and when they considered tbe distinct character of the different settlements of New Zealand, ha was persuaded that tbe General As•erally will not be so useful &» tbe Provincial Councils. From the expense and inconvenience to tbe members, he was sure that after the first session of tbe General Assembly it would be difficult to obtain members to represent the different districts, whereas for the Provincial Council such a difficulty would not be found to exist. With regard to the veto, he thought that in all matters really provincial, particularly relating to tbe estimates, power should be vested in tbe Superintendent rather than in the Governor ; if the management of the waste lands were banded over to the Provincial Governments, tben on that, and any other subject of general Government, the Governor should have that power, as many grave questions might arise on those subjects. He (Mr. L.) thought from tbe wording of the clause in the Act, naming nine as a minimum number for the Provincial Councils, that it was the intention of its framers to leave it to the Provincial Councils themselves to determine that ! question, otherwise tbey would have inserted a maximum, as in tbe case of the House of Repre- , sentatives, where the maximum number of mtrai bers is forty-two, and the minimum twenty-four.

No doubt it would take some time to obtain con- , sent to a Bill for ao extension of their number?, during which time our population would probably be much increased ; the small farm system would shortly be established and they will want members to represent them. The hon. member (Mr. W.) had said that two objections had been raised to bis motion, one that they could not obtain sufficient members, the other that the expense of paying them would be so great as not to render it deiirable. In regard to the first, he did not fear the want 4f members if their number was extended, and for bis owo part he should like to see some persons elected from among the working classes themselves. They had one member of that class, and the House would agree with him in saying that bis conduct in that House bad been a credit to himself and the dais he represented. He was still of opinion that members should not be paid for their attendance, and thought the pride of being sent there to represent their fellow settlers ought to be a sufficient recompense for their time. He was bound however to admit that the non-payment of members might debar a person, from the narrowness of his circumstances, who might be hi every way qualified to be a member, and if a resolution were brought forward to meet such cases be would cheerfully support it. He did not consider that under the present circumstances of the colony population was a proper basis for ascertaining the number of members required ; the real question was whether the work of the Council could be well done by the present number. Seeing that the Council not only enjoyeJ municipal powers, but had very large legislative powers, which he hoped to see increased, he should support the present motion, leaving it to another time to enter into the question of the actual number wanted. Mr. Brown supported the resolution, and vehemently protested against the marked refer- i ence which bad been made to the working classes as calculated to keep up invidious distinctions, and theretore likely to produce mischievous results. Mr. Bell said that he could not give a silent vote on a question of auch constitutional importance mm the one now before the house. But lie would not treapass long on their attention, for the subject bad been almost exhausted in the able and intesting speech of the hon. gentleman the member for the Hutt. Indeed, while the House must always be glad to hear the bon. gentlemnn on constitutional questions, where bis long experience was acknowledged to bo so valuable, they must have listened with great pleasure to the lucid and comprehensive manner in which be had introduced the present question to the bouse. It was essential in considering the subject now, that the house shoul i understand what had heretofore been the opinion of the settlers generally on the subject of establishing Provinci 1 Councils with large legislative powers. If his memory was not greatly incorrect, the settlers of Weli liugton hail, when engaged in framing a scheme for a constitution, condemned the system of Provincial altogether; certainly* it formed no fart of the scheme they had recommended. At Nelson, where be happened himself to have been the Chairman of the largest public meeting on a Constitutional question which had ever assembled in New Zealand, the plan of a Consri- | tution which was affirmed by that meeting strongly condemned the Provincial system, and advocated the centralization of legislative powers. And one of the greatest objections that had been raised to the Provincial Councils Ordinance of the late Legislature was, that it would establish a costly and inconvenient subdivision of governments. Tuese things should not be forgotten, because the credit of establishing complete Provincial self-government should be paid to whom it was really due. Now this house had done two things under the powers entrusted to them by the Constitution Act; they had established real responsible Government, and bad in the absence of the General Assembly claimed supreme authority of legislation, Tt was most creditable to this Province that it had taken the lead on these points, and that in a house containing only 18 members, they had ventured upon the new and difficult task of making the Executive practically tud immediately responsible to the Legislature. But when the number of members of other Provincial Councils was considered, it would, be believed, be admitted that it was very difficult to establish the same principle there. At New Plymouth and Otago the number was only nine, and it was clear that responsible government among nine members was out of the question ; even at Canterbury and Nelson, where the numbers were 12 and 15, it would be extremely difficult. That might perhaps account for the I fact of responsible government in its true sense j not having been brought into operation yet in either of the provinces named. But in addition to establishing responsible government, this house and the other Councils were claiming supreme legislative authority, and weie proceeding to exercise that authority. Now he thought that it would be found politically dangerous to entrust the exercise of supreme authority to such small numbers ; and that instead of establishing the legislatures contemplated by the framers of tl c Constitution Act, they were constituting oligarchies in which the principles of representation would become less and less regarded. He wu strongly of opinion, therefore, that the numbers in all the Councils should be increased : and if in the other Southern provinces it was absolutely necessary, it was at least equally requisite here. The extent of New Plymouth was comparatively •mall ; at Nelson and in fact perhaps throughout the Middle Island jt was probable that pastoral pursuits would for some time be the chief object of the population. Here, on the other band, there were two lines of coast diverging from this port as the centre, which would be connected with Wellington by accessible roads, and on which it was certain that agricultural settlements would be formed. He need only mention on one coast the districts of Wapganui, Rangitiki, | Manawatu, and Otaki, on the other tht districts i of Wairarapa and Ahuriri, to show that when- | ever the population of the province increased, there were large and fertile tracts, with good harbours for sranll craft and steamers, and great water communication, on which agricultural colonies could be successfully planted. It was clear that these would imperatively demand an increase in the numbers of the Council : then why not, now that the House was endeavouring ! to Jay the foundation of permanent institution*, I prepare for this sure want, and provide at once a really sufficient representation of the various i districts ? Then with regard to party govern- j ment, it was admitted that freedom in the legisla-

ture and responsibility in the Executive could not long exiit without it ; and however desirous all members of that home were to support the present Government in their novel and arduous duties, it was not to be expected that parties would not arise outside, and these ought to finJ themselves fully represented Id the Legislature, j But fancy parties existing id a Council of nine j u was even almost impossible in one cf eighteen. They had already felt in that House that there was not sufficient room for what bad been called ventilating a question : the members were too unanimous, too apt to tbrow oo the Government the initiation and responsibility of every question, too unwilling to introduce independent measures themselves. There was no opportunity for men who would devote themselves to political life, to ' t.ke the lead in public' affairs, and organise a body of followers in the legislature ; whereas it was most essential in legislatures such as these, that fields for legitimate ambition should be opened to men of talent and character : not only the ambition of being a member — though no one prized the honour of a seat in that House more dearly than himself — but the wider ambition of excelling other men in the House, of holding the balance of political stiife, and becoming arbiters and umpires in times of difficulty and trouble. If these were, as he doubted not they would be, admitted legitimate objects of ambition, it could not be doubted that to afford the necessary field | the Provincial Councils must increase the number of tbeir members. His obseivatioos were not meant only to refer to tbe old settlers, who hsd become united by associations and friendships of many years ; there was soon to be a time when new men would come, tbe old ideas pass away, and another state of public mind arise. The ' House ought to provide for this beneficial expansion, and offer at once to new comers who possessed integrity and ability, a voice in the public affairs and a place in the legislature. On these groiod* therefore, that it was politically unsafe to place such high powers io the bands of very small bodies of men, that among so few members real responsible government was next to impossible, aod that it was essential to open a wider field to political usefulness and legitimate ambition, he would give his cordial support to tbe motion before the House. Mr. Moone expressed his intention to vote in favour of the resolution, although be might previously bare entertained a different opinion. The able elucidations which had keen offered in sup. port of the motion induced him to think that ir doing so he should assist in giving greater tievelopnrent to the Constitution. Mr. Wallace gave a qualified support to tb« resolution, and Mr, fieihune sxpressed bimsell in opposition to it. Mr. Branson in giving bis support to the! motion would notice a statement by an hon. mem-j ber(Mr. Bell) to tbe effect that the people ok Wellington were opposed to Provincial Councils; or were lukewarm on this question. When thjp proper form of Constitution was canvassed in the Constitutional Association, they had decided in favour of a General Assembly, not doubting that if such * form were granted, the Assembly would provide for the establishment of such Legislative bodies to which the necessary powers shouTd be granted. Mr. Wakevvzub said that after having trespassed on the House at such length when supporting his motion, and after the general concur* tence of opinion in its favour which had been expressed, he should not have had a word to aay in reply, were it not for an observation which fell from the bon. Secretary with regard to their taking care not so to overdo the increase of tbe number of their members as to expose their law to objections by the General Government. He entirely concurred in that view, and would only express a hope that, on the other hand, if they did anything, they would do enough to carry into real effect (he principles on which in increase oi tbeir numbers appeared so desirable. The resolution was then unanimously agreed to, and the Council adjourned to eight o'clock.

EMPOWERING BILL. On re-assembling, the Council went into Comraittee on this Bill. Mr. Bell said the object of his motioo on a former occasion was biaearneat desire, from a conviction of the great importance of the aubject, to draw the attention of the legal adviser of the Government to this bill, rather than to do anything which should aavour of opposition to Government, and to give time, of which the Government might avail themselves, carefully to consider its provisiont. If Government would go on with this bill on their responsibility, he should bow to their decision and raise no further opposition to the bill. Mr. Brandon h*d, since the last sitting of the Committee, carefully gone through the bill and considered all tbe objections that had been raised; he had not seen the slightest reason to change his opinion, and was perfectly willing to tike tbe whole responsibility of the measure on his own shoulders. Mr. Ludlam had hoped tht Government would have adopted tbe opinion expressed by the House on a former occasion, and have stated affirmatively, iustead of negatively, what laws were included in this Ordinance. It was a curious coincidence that the Nelson Provincial Government bad drawn up tbeir Empowering Ordinance affirmatively, and bad included in tba Schedule all those Ordinances, tbe powers of which it was desirable the Superintendent should possess, and he considered this to be tbe piefeiable course. The Sale of Spirits Ordinance, be thought, was essentially one the powers of which could only be exercised by the Governor of the Colony, It was out of the power of the Provincial Council to confer its powera on the Superintendent, nor was any advantage to be gained by his haviog these powers, which wert larger than thosa of any other Ordinance. Mr. Bhandon said if be bad adopted the course suggested by the bon. member, from the number of recitals required tht Ordinance would have reached half a mile in length ; it was not such a task for members to go through the Ordinances, as it was to make a volume of one Ordinance, by setting forth in detail th« powera to be vested in the Superintendent. With regard to Nelson, he should not feel disposed to follow their example, and a principal reason for saying so was, the omission in tbe Nelson Empowering Ordinance, of one Act conferring the most essential powers, he alluded to the Resident Magistrates Ordinance. With reference to tbe sale of Spirit* Ordinance that tbe strict literal inter-

pretttion did authorise the substitution of provisions in place of the present ones be vis not prepared to sty, but before doing to it would be necessary to remove those provisions which were h binding is any that coold possibly be made. If the native was prohibited from purchasing, the settler was equally prohibited fiom selling wine ■nd spirits. As civilization advanced among the natives, pow«r was given to modify and alter the provisions of the ordinance, not to repeal, but to subsume other provisions. In con lernng this powei they had no desire to impose restrictions. The Superintendent might be suppoied to be best acquainted with the local affairs of the Province, and might be called upon to act at a few days notice, should he then have to send to the Governor at Auckland ? Members could not be blind to the fact that the nati es were hanging about the public houses, and offered, if the publicans were fined for supplying them with spirits, to pay the fine themselves. As the Superintendent was most interested in keeping the Natives of the Province quiet, be should be empowered to substitute such provisions as would' came the law to be obeyed. Mr. Bkowh contended, not against the desirability, but tbe legality of the course pursued by the legal adviser of the Province ; he said tbe Empoweriog Ordinance was a piece of legal machinery, and be should be glad if th« boo. member would try to meet the arguments urged against it, and if he could, refute them. The Prov. Secretary looked upon this discussion in the light of a vexed question, hot however (hat anj doubt was entertained on the question by the officers of Government, but they were desirous on all occasions to encourage rather than stifle discussion. Having a just confidence in the opinion of the legal adviser, he should be sorry ta give a silent vote on this occasion, nor would it be bis duty ; but as to the question of the ««lc of spirits, he differed from his learned colletgue, who considered the provisions of the Ordinance to be so stringent it was impossible to conceive any more binding. Now be conceived its restrictions might be carried further, if by any tortuous construction tbey could be made to apply to the odour and smell of spirits, so that not eveu ■ hnttlfl «hnnl* »~ nnnnrlcetj j n an y nubile }mi> gf

and if such a law were proposed in Council, be would oppose it even if be stood alone. To remove any doubt that might remain remain, he wouid siateihat the drafts of certain Ordinances, and among them the Empowering Oidmance, were submitted to bis Excellency the Governor ; at first sight it appeared to him the old mode affirming certaiu Ordinances was the best, but after some days' re= flection he expressed an opinion thai the present Bill was t great improvement on the old mode. So far from following the example of Nelson, he thought the Nelson Council should rather imitate the course pursued by this Council. Mr. Brown moved as an amendment that the Sale of Spirits Ordinance be included in the Schedule of ezcepied Ordinances ;' on a division hie motion was uegauved, the numbers being — ■ for the amendment, 3, against it 9. Mr. Wakefield .aid that he intended no opposition to the motion, nor any further opposition to the Bill. His own views with regard to the latter bad been so fully explained, the objections which he held to the Bill had been so forcibly stated by others, the whole subject had beeu so thoroughly sifted, that it wouid be a waste of time to pursue the controversy further ; and the morr, because the most cogent objections were without effect, because they had no weight with tbe boo. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brandon), because they made not the least impression on his mind. His present assurance to them that he took the whole responsibility of the measure ou himself, would not console them by anJ by, if the law should be disallowed for illegality. To be lure,, tbe announcement made to them by the hon. Secretary that Sir Gjorge Grey had approved of the Bill, insured that it would not be disallowed by him ; but be was leaving tbe colony ; and a new Governor, suppotted by the General Assembly, was not likely to pursue the policy of disregaid to tbe Constitution Act, of wbich the usurpiug form of this Bill was ( ne of many indications. The Government had resolved to stand by the Bill in its objectionable form ; they were backed by ft majority ; and further opposition would be idle. The Chairman then reported progress, and tbe bouse resumed. The Prov. Secretary moved tbe first reading of tbe Fencing Bill ; also the first reading of • Bill to establish and regulate Ferriei.

PENNT POSTAGE. Mr. Bkli., in a long and able speech moved tbe adoption of an address to hia Excellency th» Governor, and another to the Superintendent, on the eittblishment of t uniform Penny Postage throughout the colony. Mr. Dorset moved, the appointment of a Select Committee to enquire into tbe management of tbe Hospital, to consist of Messrs. Bell, Ludlam, Revaos, Wallace, and ibe mover. Mr. Bell proposed to substitute the name of tht Spaaker for bis ovrn, which was objected to by the Pro?incial Secretary, on the grouud that being of tbe same religion with tbe Colonial Surgeon, it might be inferred be bad entered tbe Committee with foregone conclusions. A long diacussion ensued, ultimately it was agreed the names should stand as first proposed. On the motion of the Provincial Secretary, t Select Committee on Emigration was appointed* to comist of Messri. Revans, Wakefield, Wallace, Lyon, and the mover. The Council then adjourned at bilf-past 11 o'clock.