PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Friday, December 16, 1853. MR. GRIMSTONE'S CASE.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 875, 21 December 1853, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Friday, December 16, 1853. MR. GRIMSTONE'S CASE.

After several notices of motion had been given Mr Moore "in moving the adoption of the "report of the select committee on Mr. Grimstone's case, which in obedience "to the order of the Council he had brought up on & previous day, ventured to hope for their favorable consideration, because he believed it would be fount! I to embody the substantial merits of the case. Whatever difference of opinion there might be as to where the petition should htve been preferred ; he thought there was no difference of opinion as to the grounds of the petition, and little, if any, as to 'where it must ultimately life, and that was in his opinion the Province of New Munster. Some, he knew, held that the General Government was the proper source to apply to, Btill as he believed it must come at last home to the Province »f New Munster, it mattered Httle how it catne "before them, and it must be borne in mind that the report only recognised such share of any liability as might be proved, and as might fairly be charged upon Wellington in its relative proportion to the other Provinces of which New Munster was formerly composed, namely, Nelson, Canterbury, and Otago. It was true that by far the largest amount would have to be borne by the Province of Wellington — perhaps two thirds or three fourths of the whole, but whatever it should be, they were, in his opinion, bound to tidmit it. Another great claim upon their favourable consideration was the late adjournment of the Council; in this case he ventured to call it an unfortunate adjournment, because if it should be that this Ceuncil should refuse to adopt the report, or otherwise favorably to consider the petition, then by the delay which had taken place the petitioner's chance of success in any application to the General Government would have been c6neiderably damaged, and OBe of his most reliable sources perhaps closed against him. But the strongest claim to be urged in the petitioner's favour appeared to be in the acknowledged value and length of his services as an. efficient public onicer, and this had never been denied, 'then with regard to the principle recognised in the report, he apprehended nO opposition, for it seemed to be universal, It was acted upon in the mother country, in America, and in the neighbouring colonies to a much greater extent than he was disposed to go, still he quite agreed with the principle. He would cite the Report of ihe Privy Council dated May Ist, 1849, where it was strongly laid down and appioved by the Queen in Council. In Lord Grey's recent work upon the Colonies^ various passages might be quoted bearing upon the question, and strong in its support. In the instructions from Earl Grey to Sir C. Fitzroy, and through him to all the Australian Governors, it is expressly laid down. It is urged by Sir J. Pakington. in his despatch accompanying our New Constitution Act, and by Sir George Grey in his despatch, covering the late Provincial Councils Ordinance* and he had never yet heard it denied or contested by any one. Then, admitting as he did the principle> he was bound to say that he took a modified view of its application, he thought in applying it, they should carefully take into ! consideration the circumstances of the Colony and of tlie petitioner, and bearing in mind that men suddenly thrown upon their own resources here were in a very different position from those in the Mother Country in like Cases, he was only prepared to advocate a modified application of the principle depending on the features of the case, and in this view he moved the adoption of the report Mr. Revans suggested that this was not a petition to be properly brought before this Council. The applicant was a servant of the General Government, who had spent his time in the service of that Government, and there were several principles involved which would occasion serious difficulty in dealing with the petition. He (Mr. R.) would hold as a principle that a person serving Government should be treated on the same footing as one serving a merchant in the town. He would apply this as a future principle in cases similar to the present, and would not admit the right to compen* sation. The present was a case of extreme difficulty ; in apportioning the amount of compensation to be granted there was this difficulty, the portion sanctioned by this Province might be repudiated by the other Provinces; and under all the circumstances he thought this matter should not properly come before this Council, but before the General Assembly. The Provincial Secretary rose to oppose the motion, which he did very unhesitatingly. If a discarded servant applied for compensation to a private employer it was competent for him to adopt a generous course, but every distinction was to be drawn between public and private service, and he should decidedly oppose this petition for recompense. There was also this marked distinction in the case. The Governor had written in the strongest terms to the Colonial Minister that the public servants who should lose then office by the change of Government, and should not otherwise be providec for, should receive compensation, but this bar not been adopted. He had no intention to diminish the value of Mr. Grimstone's claims, but during & portion of the time he had served Government he was in the employment of the Government of New South Wales, and

ftiat of Governor Hobson, and they could not be called upon for compensation for that period. Then the report stated the clam might have been averted by the Superintendent by the offer of employment ; now he conceived there was only one meaning to be attached to tills statement, namely, that the Superintendent by hia neglect had imposed a burden on that Province which he 'might have avoided if be had acted- discreetly. Such a statement compelled him to give information, that in the correspondence "that had taken place between the Superintendent and his Excellency, the greatest pains had been taken to place Mr. Grirastone in a favourable position, and he regretted the more that such f»n imputation had been tbrown in a quarter ' where it wa9 least deserved, since Mr. Grim - stone had expressed his approval and gratitude that every, step had been taken to place his • claims in'a favourable light, and had intimated that no situation would be worthy bis acceptance other than that of a head of department. Such a course was incompatible with his Honor's resolution to carry out the principles of Responsible Government, and any other mode was prevented by Mr. Grimstone's declaring to take any inferior situation. He had no desire in anything be had said to undervalue Mr. 'Grimstone's services, but he conceived his Claim to be against the General Government, " and Mr. Grimstone had put himself 1 out of 1 court by declining any subordinate appointment. If this case were admitted by the Council, ' others would undoubtedly follow, and siuce His Fxcellency the Governor had already provided ' for other servants of the Government, it bad undoubtedly struck every one as remarkable in this case, that Mr. Grimstone had not also been provided for. "Mr. Ludlam observed that the principle of compensation after a service of several years ' was one which bad been decided in the affirmative in all departments of public service at hc-me, and there could be no difficulty in the admission *of the same principle by this^Council. If they took the funds which had been banded over by ' the Government," they took also the obligations connected with those funds, which might %aye been deducted from the revenues of the Province. Great stress had "been laid on certain expressions in the report, as imputing blame to the Superintendent, but he (Mr. L.) did not attach such meaning to those expressions in ' the report. The Prov. SecbEtart said he had shewn " the greatest delicacy in not wishing to damage Mr. Grimstone's claim, and nothing but the clause to which he referred had induced him to make the cOmmnnication lie had done, which ' lie had withheld to the last minute. Mr. Ludlam differed from the Provincial 'Secretary as to the meaning of that portion" of * the report he had referred to, and considered if tfce General Assembly had met, this Province would have had to pay its proportion of compensation to the petitioner. Mr. Bill in a long address concurred with the Provincial Secretary in considering Mr. "Gfnnstone/s case * to be one which should be referred to the Geneial Government, and concluded by expressing his intention to vote ■for the rejection of his claim. Mr. Wakehem) wished to'Temove a ground of misapprehension which appeared to be fur-> niched by the Committee's report. The Com- ' mittee had no intention whatever to east a re- ' flection on the Superintendent, by saying that the Province, through its Superintendent, had enjoyed, but bad not cl.osen to avail itself of, »n opportunity to avert Mr. Grimstone's claim "by giviDg him employment. The report showed that there were two courses open to the Superintendent ; and the Committee only 'meant to say that he bad not chosen the one which would have averted Mr. Grimstone's claim. There was no imputation of blame in 'merely slating that the choice between two courses made by the Superintendent, had left Mr. Grimstone's claim to be dealt with by the Province. Upon the claim itself, be (Mr. W.) would say but a few words. When he 'first heard of it, he deemed it totally inadmissible, and had, be believed, called it preposterous: and to ,b friend of Mr. Grimstone's, who spoke to him on the subject, he had said that Mr. Grimstone would only lose his time by attempting to get compensation from the Provincial Government ; se clearly was he of opinion that the future General Government alone could deal with a claim for compensation from an officer of the Government receritlydefunct. But when he came to read the whole of the correspondence, the case appeared to him to be one of such extreme injustice and hardship, that he had felt bound to examine it "with care. Indeed to show this, it would be necessary to read only a small part of the correspondence. He begged the attention of the Council to a letter from the Civil Secretary to "Mr. Grimstone. Civil Secretary's Office, Wellington, 29th July, 1853. " I am directed hy Governor Sir George Grey to acquaint you that from and after the Ist day of Angutt next, you will receive your instruction! from, and make your reports to His Honor the Superintendent of theTrovinee of Wellington. "In communicating these instructions to you, Hia Excellency hss directed me to express his thanks for the seal and fidelity witb which you "have for io long a peri ad performed your duties. " His Excellency feels that you hfcve thus materially «J3ed him and lightened the difficult duties be tin bad to perform : and in returning you hit sincere acknowledgments, His Excellency feels every confidence you will continue to serve the public a? efficiently henceforth as you have hitherto done." Here then was a public servant transferred by the bead of the Government from one service to another, without an intimation or a hint that he was in any danger of losing his employment. But now lit them see how completely he was misled. The Superintendent wrote tbus : — Wellington, August Ist, 1853. " With reference to the letter addressed by the Civil Secretary to yourself, find which you placed in my hands for perusal, I think it only fair to give you the < earliest intimation in my power, that I am not in a position nt present to avail myself of your services, and 'that I cannot hold out any remtonaWe piospect of my being able, under -future arTanneniPnlß, to confer upon you such an office at your length of service may probably lead you to expect." Thus this unfortunate gentleman, between %mo stople, found himself on tbe ground, or, M might ho ?nid, " planted" ; struck down without any fault of hie own, and without any

d rteans of redress. Ii was therefore that the »r Committee had been induced to enquire n whether this unquestionable injustice and hardit ship could be remedied. They had been very l- careful in their enquiries. It had come to c their ears, "that in fact the Superintendent bad it made to Mr. Grimstone an offer of employd ment, wh : ch was declined a 9 being inadequate c to that gentleman's pretensions; but on enr. quiry, they were led to believe that no soch r- offer had been made. If they had been credid bly informed that Mr. Grimstone had declined d any employment under the Superintendent exn cept an head of a department, their report c would have been of a very different character ; Ii because it was clear that, under the new system, r which required heads of departments to sit in - that house, Mr. Grimstone's refusal of any mee ferior office would have been tantamount to dcs clming employment altogether. But Ihe hon. d the Provincial Secretary did not even then in- - form them that an inferior eroplovment was of- :. fered. As a committee, they could only go by s the correspondence before them. If the report s were set.t back to the Committee, they could c obtam further information. On such a point, d which affected, as he understood, the very sube sistence of the Petitioner, and his large family, •. it seemed but fair that the Council should have s precise and conclusive evidence. As to the :, general principle of compensating 1 public serif vants for loss of office through no fault of their :. own, he (Mr. W.) wished to say, for himself, , that, according to all his experience and obsers vation, it was impossible to obtain efficient ser1 vice in the permanent and laborious offices of 3 Government, unless some provision were made b for meritorious public servants, whom age or 3 changes in the administration of Government compelled to retire. Of course the observaf tion did not apply to the plan of departments s now happily established in that Province, under - which heads of departments must sit in that , Council, and must retire whenever they lost the i public confidence. If that class of public serf vants were to be pensioned on'retirement from f office, they might be induced to leave us in ? such quick succession, that we might soon have ; a number of idle pensioners on the hands of • Government. He ventured, in conclusion, to « congratulate that Council, and the Province of > Wellington, on being the first to attempt that t system of responsible Government, under which i a certain class of' public servants would have no sort of right to compensation on retiring i from office. Mr. Brandon while admitting Mr. Grim. > stone's case to be a hard one, and that the i Province had derived great benefits from his i services, 'could not «gree to the proposal that Wellington should be saddled with the coraI pensation of this claim which had been so of- ' ten referred to. It had been said the words : in the report were not intended to throw any slur on the Superintendent, those words must imply some meaning, and he was at a loss to attach any other meaning to those words.which he considered to be highly objectionable. Mr. Moore explained that no intention existed on the part of the Committee to throw the slightest blame on the Superintendent ; they simply meant to express, that as Mr. Grimstone had not received any appointmpnt he was entitled to compensation for the loss of his office. The Pnov. Secretary said he fully accepted the explanation of the clause in the report, which had been Offered by the hon. member. After some further observations from Mr. Moore the report of the Committee was withdrawn, on the unders'anding that it would be brought forward iv an amended form on another day.

EMPOWERING ORDINANCE. Mr. Bell on rising to move the amendment that the Weights and Measures Ordinance be •dded to ihe list of excepted Ordinances, said that he did so in no spirit of opposition, bat really tolielp in the passing of the Empowering Act without errors. He had communicated privately with the hon. and learned gentleman the Provincial Solicitor on the subject, and had submitted to him objections which he was bound to say the hon. and learned gentleman had listened to with courtesy, but having failed to convince the hon. and learned gentleman of the validity of those objections, he felt it his duty to bring the matter before the Committee. He was at first of opinion that by eliminating such clauses in tbe Weights and Measures Ordinance as contained powers essentially belonging to the General Government, the remainder of the Qrdinnnce might be left to come under the operation of the empowering Act, but on a more careful examination he became convinced that it would really be necessary to' except the Ordinance altogether ; and he would ask the indulgence of the Committee while he went through the various clauses of the Ordinance which seemed most inapplicable to the Provincial Government. Mr. Bell then referred to the Ist, 2nd., and Bth clauses, as giving powers which should be confined to the General Government. With respect to tue 15th clause, he would illustrate his argument by the following supposition. The clause provided for the appointment of an officer who should make calculated tables for the purpose of ad- ! justing various weights and measures now in 'use, to those brought into force as the standard of the colony ; immediately on the publication of which tables, the Collectors and other revenue officers were to be guided by them. Now he admitted that if those calculations were made simultaneously throughout the Provinces, there would be no difficulty, as they would necessarily agree under simple rules of arithmetic. But if the Empowering Act was not the same in all the Provinces, then tables would exist at one port and not at an another, and that would of ittelf cause a number of different standards, instead of an uniform standard, to prevail in the colony. Supposing that the Superintendent of this Province, under the power proposed to be given him, were to appoint the officer contempLted by the law, andtables were published for Wellington, while the Superintendent of Nel. son had not the same power conferred on him, or did not make a simultaneous appointment and provide for the simultaneous publication of tables for Nelson ; wbat would be the result ? Why a vessel arriving from England at NeUon would find her duties calculated according to one guage, and upon coming on to Wellington would find that the duties were to be calculated according to

: another guage. It was all very well to saythat the Empowering Act did not give a regulating power ; but he would ask the Committee what, in the case he had stated, would be the opinion of the commander of the vessel, or of a merchant ? For all their purposes the regulation at one port would not be the same regulation as at another port, and the difference of regulation would be caused by the exercise of the power proposed to be given to the Provincial Executive. Now it was eelf evident that there should be one absolutely uniform standard of measure throughout the colony : if then he were right in the view he had taken of the possible effect of including the Ordinance, it was clear that it ought to be excepted, in order that the matrer of all others on which the public were entitled to tlemand perfect accuracy and uniformity should be secured even from tie risk of error or variaiou, Mr. Brandon had listened to the hon. member without being convinced by the arguments he had brought .'orward. There had been no intention on the part of the Provincial Government to confer on the Superintendent any un« due authority, and referring more particularly to the observations of the hon. member with regard to the Weights and Measures Ordinance, he would state they had simply endeavoured to provide for regulating weights and measures, not of deciding what the standard of weights and measures should he. Mr. Wakefield said that the real question before the Council was, whether, by this Empowering Bill, they were legislating on subjects which the Constitution Act expressly forbad the Provincial Legislatures to meddle with. He had no doubt' that they were. , Tt mattered not whether the forbidden subjects were cf great or small importance : if they were forbidden, the Council, by touching them, would expose the whole Bill to the greatest danger of being: disallowed for illegality. He could not pretend to describe all the numerous cases in which this Bill proposed that they should legislate on a forbidden subject, because he could not pretend that he had m»de himself master of all the ordinances, i elating to the thirteen forbidden subjects, which the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brandon) ought, according to the plan of his bill, to have put into its schedule ; but he {Mr. W.) would mention a few cases by way of example. The Empowering Ordinance of the Legislative Council of New Munater (Session 1, No. 5) gave powers vested in the Governor of the Colony or the Governor or Lieutenant-Governor of the Province, under 29 ordinances enumerated in its schedule (Book of Ordinances, Appendix p. I. ix.) The schedule of this bill only enumerated 7 Ordinances as excepted from the proposed transfer of powers. Among the 22 which remain, he would begin by selecting the •• Sale of Spirits to Natives Ordinance" (F. 2, Session 8. No. 3.) The sth clause of this Ordinance empowered the Governor to modify, alter, or stjspend the provisions of the Ordinance, and to substitute others for them, as may appear to him expedient. The 6th clause enabled the Governor to proclaim the Ordinance in operation in such districts as he pleases. By not including this Ordinance among those excepted by the schedule, the hon. and learned gentleman asked the Council to make a law giving these powers to the Superintendent. They are clearly powers (he would now quote from the Constitution Act, clause 19, section 11) to "inflict liabilities or restrictions jon persons of the Native race, to which persons cf European birth or descent would not also be subjected." Again, by the " Marriage Ordinance" of 1847, (H. 2, Session 8, No. 7) clause 44 excepts the Natives from the provisions of the law, but authorises the Governor from time to time to proclaim the Ordinance in operation, in any district he pleases, with respect to marriages of the Native race. To make a law giving this power to the Superintendent, would be to make a law for " regulating marriages," which is forbidden by clause 19, Section 9, of the Constitution Act. Thirdly, by the " Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages Ordinance, (H. 3, Session 8, No. 9) clauses 1 and 2 provide, that the Governor shall appoint provisionally, until her Majesty's pleasure be known, Registrar Generals, fee, who have to perform various duties relating to the collection of fees, and otherwise to the " regulation of marriages." Clause 6 empowers the Governor, by proclamation, to divide the colony into convenient Deputy Registrars' districts, and from time to time to alter, revoke, and renew such division. Clause 37 excepts Natives from the operation of the Ordinance, but gives the Governor power to proclaim it in operation in respect of their births, deaths, and marriages, when and where he pleases. Surely, to make a law giving all these regulating powers to the Superintendent, would be making a law for " regelating marriages" contrary to the Constitution Act, clause 19, section 9. Moreover, the Registrars and other officers appointed by the Governor under this Ordinance are designated by the Marriage Ordinance before cited, as the officers to carry out regulation of marriages. Next came the " Land Registration Ordinance" (J. 9, Sessioa 2, No. 5.) Its title was "an Ordinance to provide for the Registration of Deeds and Instruments affecting Real Property ." Clauses 2, 3, and 4, empower the Governor to appoint Registrars holding holding office during good behaviour ; to approve of appointments, by Registrars, of inferior officers ; and to determine the security to be given by the Registrar for the due performance of his duties. Clause 49 enacts that the Ordinance shall come into operation at such time and place as the Governor, with the advice of his Executive Council, shall proclaim. Now, where this law is not in force, the law with regard to real property and wills is different from what it is by clauses 17, 19, and others of this Ordinance. It follows, that by leaving this Ordinance out of his Schedule, and thereby authorising the Superintendent to exercise its powers, the hon. and learned gentleman asked the Council to violate that part of the Constitution Act which forbids Provincial legislation for regulating the course of inheritance of real or personal property, or on matters affecting the law relating to wills. To show how carelessly the schedule was prepared, he would now mention a power which was omitted, though it ought to have been inserted. The •• Slaughter House Ordinance," (F, 4, Session 8, No. 5) appears not to have been included in the Schedule of the New Munster " Empowering Ordinance." At least ikis not

in the Schedule appended to the analysis of the latter Ordinance in the book of Ordinances of New Zealand (Appendix page lix). This may, by possibility, be a misprint — the " Copyright Ordinance" (E, 4.) having been inserted instead —especially as the Copyright Ordinance con. tains no powers to the Governor, and as Lien* tenant Governor Eyre did, on the 27th May, 1 8 J 8, exercise the powers of proclaiming districts, giren to the Governor by the first clause of the " Slaughter House Ordinance " (Book of Ordinances, Appendix, p. xlvii). Could *he lion, and learned gentleman say whether the "Slaughter House Ordinance" was really in the Schedule of the " Empowering Ordinance of New Munster " (Session 1 , No. 5) ? It was most desirable and perfectly constitutional that they should give to the Superintendent the powers of the Governor under the " Slaughter House Ordinance ;" but if that Ordinance be not in the schedule of the " Empowering Ordiuance of New Mnnster," then the Bill before them would not give those powers at all. Turning now to a power given which ought to have been withheld, he (Mr. W.) would remark that the hon. and learned gentleman said that his Bill gave to the Superintendent powers exercised by the Governor under the " Harbour Regulations Ordinance" and the "Weights and Measures Ordinance" (E, 1, and 2, 3). But neither of these Ordinances appear in tho Schedule of the "Empowering Ordinance of New Munster." How then could they be included among the Ordinances under which the powers of the Lieutenant Governor would be given to the Superintendent? Even the Lieutenant Governor appears never to have had them by law. If they were in the Schedule or were otherwise vested in the Lieutenant Go. vernor, some of the powers by them given to the Governor, catinot be legislated on by this Council, since that would be making laws con. cerning " the imposition of dues and other charges on shipping at any harbour, &c/ (Constitution Act, clause 19, section 8). So important has the power of making this and other " Harbour Regulations " been considered hitherto — so much, as it were, a matter affecting Imperial interests— that by the " Harbour Regulations Amendment Ordinance" (E, 2, Session 3, No* 1^) it was enacted that "No such regulation's are to continue in force for more than two years, unless, in the mean time, they should receive Royal confirmation to be notified in the Government Gazette." He had intended to say something about the " Weights and Measures;" but the speech of his hon. relative had disposed of that subject with such lucidity of statement and force of argument, that he (Mr. W.) would merely add it to his list of examples of unlawful legislation proposed by the hon. and learned member. He would not weary the Council by further reference to these tiresome details of legal techno calities ; but had he not brought forward enough ca3es to show that the plan of the hon, and learned member's Bill was incurably defective ? By that plan they were made to legislate negatively ; not affirming that the Superintendent should have powers mentioned in the law, but that he should have all the powers not mentioned in the law, and no others. By the plan of the Bill, powers weretnentioned for the purpose only of witKbeWrag them from the Superintendent. This imposed on the Council the necessity of finding out whether the hon. and learned icember had included in his Bill all the powers, in a great variety of Ordinances, which could not be given without violating the Con- , •titution Act. That was a task which it was simply impossible 'for the Council to perform sa- i tisfactorily. The only safe course for them was to alter the plan of the Bill, mentioning specifically the powers which they intended to give, and withholding all others. By this means they would, at least, know what they were doing. There appeared to be no other means by which the Council could make sure of not legislating l contrary to the law which authorised them to legislate, at the imminent risk of having their Ordinance disallowed for, illegality. The Prot. Secretary would observe that if any powers had , been conferred by this Ordinance on the Superintendent to which he was not entitled, it had been owing more to inexperience than to any design on their part to usurp undue authority. He then briefly ad- j verted to the objections raised by Mr. Wakefield and Mr. Bell, and said the conclusion to which he arrived was, that if there was any real doubt on the subject, it would be better that the Chairman report progress, than that any- ' thing should be done which should cause the disallowance of the bilk : Mr. Ludxam was of opinion that the bill ; should have been drawn up in a totally differ- ' ent manner, so as to show what the powers given to the Superintendent really were. One | of the strongest cases brought forward, he ' thought, was the sale of Spirits Ordinance; 1 that Ordinance is still in force ; and the powers ' under that Ordinance were given to the Gen- ] era! Government ; he was quite willing to give the Superintendent the necessary powers for ! carrying on the Government, but he thought , they should be careful not to interfere with the powers of the General Government. Mr. Brandon complained of the unnecessary delay caused by these discussions ; the bill had ' now been six weeks before the Council, and he had heard no reasons advanced to induce him to change the framing of the bill, or in any ' way to alter its powers. ' Mr. Brown supported the view taken by Mr. Wakefield, particularly with regard to the ] Sale of Spirits Ordinance, the powers conferred i by which he thought could only be exercised i by the Governor. Mr Brandon thought it perfectly competent for the Council to legislate on the Sale of Spirits to the Natives. He thought they were i attempting to draw these distinctions to a tremendous length. In regulating the law affect- ; ing wills, lihey were riot passing a law which should exceed the powers given to them by the ■ Constitution Act, so also with regard to marriages; they did not attempt by this Ordinance i to say what should or should not be a legal i marriage. , Mr, Wakefield said, that as the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Brandon) denied that the Registration Ordinance affected wills— a ; subject excluded from their legislation by the ! Constitution Act — he would state, that if a New Zealand 'settler owning land in the colony, djed in England, or one of the neighbouring colonies, leaving a will whereby his property was

t disposed of in favour of Ills wife and children, F or otherwise, his heir-at-law might aullify the- , will, by registering a claim, »s heir-at-law, bei fore the will could be brought into operation ; I for the Ordinance gave an absolute preference • to titles in the order of their registration. . What then could the hon. and learned gentle- , man mean by saying that the Registration . Ordinance did not affect wills ? The power of j language could not make his error plainer than ; j it appeared from the statement just made ; but s the statement seemed to make no impression ; on him. He was impenetrable. Notwithstani ding the clearest proof that reason could give » of the futility of his objections to the arguj ments addressed to him, he continued to repeat t those objections over and over again, in the . same terms, as if they had not been refuted. • For example, he would not be persuaded that • administration was included in a regulating law. f He admitted that the Council were incompe- . tent to settle rates of postage or impose duties. , of Customs, but denied that they were incom- , petent to meddle with the administration of . these departments ; and why ? because mere- [ administration was not regulation. If that were j true, the Council might legally authorise the . Superintendent to remove postmasters and aps point others in their place : for that, according , to the hon. and learned gentleman, would not $ be " regulating the post offices and the carriage f of letters within the Province" as prohibited by . the Constitution Act. 5 Mr. Bkll said that he could not doubt all . the members were sincerely desirous of assist- » ing the hon. and learned gentleman, at the [ same Mmc they felt it necessary thoroughly to - Hnderstand the matter in hand. The Corn- . mittee did not quite deserve the censure of the , hon. and learned gentleman, when he said that } the Bill had been a long time on the table, and . that they ought to have found out the objecr tions before. It was not a question of policy, ' nor could it involve any party consideration ; , it was a question of dry law, on which the house [ had had a right to 'rely on the hon. and I learned gentleman as the le^al adviser of Go- . yerament and the only professional gentleman r in the house : if therefore they had been somet what late in discovering legal errors in this , most important act, they were hardly to blame. r For his own part, coming for the first time to > the House, on Friday last on his return from s Wanganai, and within five minutes after hear- \ ing the hon. and learned gentleman's speech, 5 he pointed out to the hon. gentleman the Pro- . vincial Secretary, and shortly afterwards to the i hon. and learned gentlemai himself, two subt jects on which it seemed to him there was j error, one of which the hon. and learned gen- . tleman with much courtesy at once admitted. 5 and the other was the occasion of b. s present . amendment. Now what had occur ed to him . then was, that if there were two there might | be two dozen, and he had earnestly begged the , hon. and learned gentleman to go over all the . Ordinances again with minute care : on this . account he had not given close attention to . them himself, and he confessed his astonish- ( ment at hearing the numerous instances, ad- , duced by the hon. gentleman the member for the Hutt, in which it was likely the Empowering Act would trench on the subjects reserved from Provincial Legislation by the Constitution ! Act. The fact was, a feelin* of real alarm had arisen in his mind, and he believed in the minds of other members on the matter (hear, hear, from several members) : snd he did trust that the hon. and learned gentleman would give time for a more thorough investigation, in | order that the Bill might not be hurried through in an imperfect, much less an illegal state. Hon. N members did not need to be reminded that the bills they were passing would gothrough the hands of a gentleman they all knew to be distinguished for ability, and who had the reputation of high legal attainments. The Attorney-General of New Zealand had a. good deal to say in the matter, and it was quite certain that legal errors would not escape his keen and practised eye. Supposing that there really were the legal errors suggested, it would be the inevitable duty of that functionary to advise the disallowance of the bill : this would take place after the prorogation, and the house would be left in a stupid position, but*the hon. i and learned gentleman would be left in a more stupid position still. With regard to ihe remark of the hon. gentleman the Provincial Secretary upon the ter-*» " Lieutenant Governor " m the last clause of the Weights and: 1 Measures Ordinance, he would only say that it was indispensable that officer should be named, inasmuch as there was at that time noGovernor, and Sir George Grey was only Lieutenant-Go-vern or ; but it was not intended thereby ta vest the powers in the Provincial Executives. Mr. Brandon would not now undertake to move this mountain which had been made by hon. members out of a molehill ; he would therefore consent that the Chairman should re-, port progress. Tb.2 Prov. Secretary expressed the highgratification afforded him by this debate, as°it | manifested a careful spirit of legislation, ant independence, and an earnest desire on the part of hon. members for the prosperity of theProvince which could not fail to have' the happiest effects. Mr. Wakefibld said that it might be useful if he stated, that it had come to his knowledge, that a Superintendent had intimated to the Governor the probability that the Council of hisProvince would legislate on the Registration Ordinance, whereupon the Governor, in retnrn,. intimated to the Superintendent, that if they so. meddled with a forbidden subject, their lawwould be disallowed. The Chairman then reported progress. The Prov. Secretary moved the first read— I ing of the Loan Bill. Mr. Ludlam moved that the Council td-. journ to Tuesday, and that the meetings of the : Council be on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,, and Friday, as heretofore, as he wat convincedthe House would get through more business by sitting only four days in the week, and that such an arrangement would be attended with greater convenience to the members, and ensure a more regular attendance. The motion was agreed to unanimously, and the House adjourned.