PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Saturday, December 3rd., 1853.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 871, 7 December 1853, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. S aturday , Decemb e r 3rd., 1 853.

On the assembling of the Council Mr. Moore gave notice of his intention on -Tuesday to .present a petition from Mr i: ,S. E. Grimstone. The SpßAKEß.said that -during the recess he had caused drafts to be prepared of the Stand, j ing Orders, embodying 'all) that had t -been approved at the.previous^sittings of jthesCouncil, with such additional rules as appeared to be necessary, and which he had directed (o be* laid on the table/- ' , ,J. ?t? t v ,/,\ /. ' x 'Mr. Brown gaye, BOtipe v of his^ -intention to movp a resolution, for r ,the purpose, of rj ascertain- , ing whether, or, ,not v th,e Council were legally qualified to deal 'with, the re veq,ue. «„ - ,] , The Provincial i Secrejcart wished ( to as|c the member for the Hutt (Mr. Wakefieldj a question -relative to some , observations .u^d .by him y at a late public - meeting referring to the resignation ' of ," himself "and .his, -, colleague, whether he had' said that fie" {Mr., F.) and^the | legal adviser of the Superinten^enfrhad first vacated their 'seats, and thenjcameapd yoted in the Council? ; ' '-,- r . . ' j Mr, Wakefield thought that some notice of ( j the Hon. /Secretary's .intention to put; such.;a [ question ought to have been." given. The .course of suddenly asking such questions without any notice, was most -uhusua). * And the notice ought to be in writing,; for he would nqt.himself, and he doubted whether any qffie'r member: <would, undertake to recite exactly the words of the hon. Secretary's question. If,, the Hon., Secretary would let" him have' the question, in

a distinct unmistakeable form, he would answer it in*the same manner. I , THe Provincial Secretary would be happy to meet the wishes of the hon. member, and in order to obviate any difficulty would adopt the plan suggested by him, and submit his question in writing on the next sitting of the Council. ' Mr. Wakepibld suggested that a copy of the question should be forwarded to him by the Secretary before the next meeting of Council.

STANDING RULES AND ORDERS, The Council then resolved itself into committee on the Standing Rules and Orders. Mr. Clifford observed that, as Speaker of the Council, he thought it requisite to see that drafta, of standing Orders should be prepared for discussion, and he would now, as an independent member, bring them forward in committee. Certain of the Orders had already been passed by the Council, additions and alterations had been made to these, and as the Orders were considered in committee he would point out those which were new rules, and such alterations as had been made to the rules that had previously been discussed. yOn v On the 2nd rule being proposed which fixed the sitting days, viz., Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, the Government business to take precedence on Tuesday and Friday. Mr. Wakefield thought that some inconvenience mi^ht arise from making it a standing order that such and such days should be set apart for the Goveinment business. It was doubtless most proper, and indeed necessary, that some days should be so set apart ; but it should, he thought, be done by c-orcmon order of the House, which might be altered at any time to suit the convenience of the House, not by a rule called " Standing,", and intended to stand during the four years' session of the Council. Standing Orders were not designed to include matters liable to freqnent alteration, such as the number of days in the week which an" Executive Government might from time to time need for getting through its business in the Legislature. There was no £uch provision in the Standing Orders of the House of Commons ; nor, he believed, in those of any other Legislative body. He would suggest, instead of a standing oider, a mere resolution of the House, which might be altered from time to time according to the varying state of business before th,e Council. The Provincial Secretary said he thought it highly desirable that some days should be fixed on which Government business .should have the precedence ; if found inconvenient they could be altered. He apprehended no difficulty from a sessional rule being mixed up wi*h the Standing orders. On the 3rd rule relating to adjournments and the time of the meetings of Council, some discussion arose. It was objected by some members that if the rule prescribed a specified time for the meeting "of the Council, if, from press of business an early sittingwere required it would involve a suspension of the standing orders. To meet this difficulty the words " unless otherwise appointed " were inserted after the words fixing 1 the adjournments to 3 o'clock of the following day. On the question of adjournments, Mr.- Wakefield begged to be informed why it was proposed that there should be no speaking on motions for adjournment of the House — why a member should not give his reasons for moving an adjournment. The Speaker said the proposed rule would hinder members from stopping the business of the House by repeated motions of adjournment. Mr. VVakefield said that such a power was one of the privileges of the House of Commons - -almost the only privilege of the minority. Motions of adjournment with the right of speaking in support of such motions, were the only resource of a minority when the majority was oppressive. In every session of the House of Commons the minority defended itself in this way ; and the wisdotn of the House of Comraonshadnot thought of depriving the minority of this privilege. Every privilege, no doubt, might be abused, by being used in an unjustifiable manner 5 but that was not a good argu- j ment against privileges. He could not help thinking the Council Would do well to take example from the House of Commons in this matter. • The General Orders, the Orders relating to motions, to Public Bills, to lapsed questions, ; and' the Rules for Select Committees, were then disposed of without much discussion. - .On the rule relating to Petitions not in the 1

English language, being proposed* .Mr. Wakkfield said he had ana former occasion objected to this rale, because it did not place the language of the two races inhabiting- the Province' oh a footing of equality ; and be must now< repeat the objection. The Constitution gave the same political rights to natives as to colonists ; and natives were entitled to sit in that House. If the Council ruled that all petitions.should be in the English' language, ori if in the' native language, accompanied by a translation into English, the native language would be. placed in an inferior and disadvantageous position. Though the proposed rule dfrr'not-men* tion the native language, ,j:here could- be no doubt, that it was solely intended to meet the caseiofapetitjonsm ( that language. There should, he thoughti.be no difference between the two languages, as ■ respects their reception by the Ccmnpil. , Perfect fairness and .equality would b,e secured, ,if a rule provided, tfyat a petition in either language, should, on the requisition of any member, be translated into the other, language, by an authorised translator tor be appointed- by the Speaker. He, ventured to recommend that course, and to beg of the House to .take care , that, they did not subject themselves to the -imputation of having made a dis- \ tincfion between the two languages unfavorable to that of, the, natives. ' On, clause 100 being read ' „ , That no Petition shall either directly or indirectly pray for a grant of public money. ' " " „ Mr. Ludlam wished to propose an amendment on this rule with a ..view to raise discussion/ He, would propose that the words either % and or directly, be stiuck out. Jt had been stated by the Provincial Secretary that by clause 25 of the Constitution Act , the Council were precluded fr_cm receiving petitions praying for Grants. of money, but, he thought this- a wrong construction of the^glaiise*. Readmitted the_ Superintendent jshouljlhavea controlling power, but he was

still of opinion that the question should be determined by the Council, whether they should receive petitions praying for grants of public money, and should then send them to the Superintendent. He thought the proper course would be for the Council to receive the petition, and if the sum asked for was reasonable, to recommend the Superintendent to place it on the Estimates. In many cases the Superintendent might find such a course inexpedient, and might not assent to the recommendation of the Council. It had been stated ■that the rule, as it now stood, was a standing rule in the House of Commons. No doubt such a rule would there be found to be very necessary, but in a young community and in a Council of this sort, he should be sorry to see the people prevented from petitioning their own Council. Mr. L. cited several cases from the Council in New South Wales, as reported in the Sydney papers, in which a similar course appeared to be pursued, and concluded by stating that he conceived the right of applying to their representatives was one of the privileges to which the public was fairly entitled. Mr. Mooius entirely concurred in the view expressed by the last speaker on this subject. There might be a great objection to the Council originating a money vote, which might have the effect of seriously interfering with the financial arrangements of the Government. Nevertheless he felt very strongly the right of the public to use that Council as the channel through which their wishes should be forwarded, and was very desirous to see the privilege of petitioning the Council preserved for the public. Mr. Brown followed on the same side. The Prov. Secretary, in reference to what had fallen from the hon. member for the Hutt (Mr. Ludlam) as to the difference between the practice of the Council of New South Wales and their standing rules, said he could not imagine the Sydney Council would adopt such a rule without acting upon it, and the course referred to must have been adopted to meet a particular case. No doubt in the instances adduced it would be found, if the full particulars were furnished, that the Governor had given leave for the introduction of the petition. The principle that all grants of money should originate with the Crown was strictly maintained at home, and adverting to the 25th clause in the Constitution Act, members would find the same principle carried out in our constitution. As long as the application was made in so indirect a manner as not to clog the Government he, should not oppose it, and he thought if the amendment were to be stretched so far, the Council would see the difficulty and set their faces against it. With this explanation he would consent to adopt the amendment of the hon. member. Mr. Ludlam said where the public wished for a grant of money the Council might present an address to the Superintendent, in which the : reasons for making the grant should be set forth. i A long discussion ensued on rule 104 rela- j ting to private Bills, in which Mr. Wakefield J urged the necessity of defining with some precision what should be considered private Bills. On the clause enforcing- the removal of strangers from the gallery and the body of- the House being read, Mr. Clifford observed that some row might occur in the House or the gallery in which such a rule might be expedient to enforce order. Mr. Wakefield said, in some case of extreme excitement in the House, or in the event of some very disorderly proceedings either in the House or in the gallery, it would without doubt be necessary to be able to drop the scene, and get rid of the disturbance. The remaining clauses were agreed to, when the Council resumed and the Chairman brought up the report of committee. Mr. Brandon moved the adoption of the Standing Rules and Orders by the Council, and that they be referred to the Superintendent for his approval.

NOTICES OF MOTION. The Prov. Secretary — To move for a select committee on the New Zealand Company's debt. Mr. Brandon — To move on Tuesday, the first reading of an Empowering Bill, of a Bill relating to fines and forfeitures, and a Bill relating to Licenses and Fees. Mr. Rbnall wished to ask the legal adviser of the Province if it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill for making r'oadsi . Mr. Brandon replied in the affirmative. Mr. Moore inquired of the Provincial Secretary what steps had been taken, or were in contemplation, for establishing a proper system of Audit. The Prov. Secretary said the Superintendent had had for some time the subject in serious consideration. It was in contemplation to establish a board of Audit, but when a decision was arrived at he would afford precise informntion. Mr. Ludlam wished to be informed when the Estimates would be laid on the table. 1 The Prov. Secretary said there would be no difficulty in laying the estimates on the table at the next sitting, but those estimates would be contingent on the way in which the question relating to the legality of the appropriation of the revenue by the Council was disposed of. Until that question was settled, and a3 the es- \ timates would refer to the raising 1 of a loan, it would be impossible, unless the Council should give their sanction to raising a loan, to submit the estimates to the Council. Mr. Ludlam said with regard to raising a loan, it would be necessary for the Council first to have- the estimates before them to know what would be required. Until the Council 'were informed the , amount of the revenue, and I what would be required for the expense of the Civil Government, it would be impossible for them to decide whether or not a loan should be raised. The Superintendent in kis speech had stated there would be a surplus after the expenses of Government were defrayed. ' The Provincial Secretary said the hon. member would see that his answer 1 applied to the supposition of a loan being raised, supposing the Council gave encouragement to that question ; in the alternative nf a loan not being sanctioned by the Counpil, the estimates would have to be framed^in another manner. The Council then adjourned to Tuesday, at three o'clock. > "