PUBLIC MEETING.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 834, 30 July 1853, Page 2

PUBLIC MEETING.

A Public Mketing of the Electors of Wellington was beld at the Britannia Saloon, on Wednesday evening, pursuant to advertisement, to take into consideration the propriety of requiring a Pledge from the Candidates at the forthcoming election, to resign their seats in the event of their forfeiting the confidence of their constituents. The meeting appeared to have excited very great interest, as the room was quite full from the commencement of the proceedings* Mr. Gibson was called to the Chair. Mr. Allion hoped the resolution he was about to propose would be fairly discussed and decided upon its own merits. He did not intend to make a long speech, but would rather, having introduced the subject, leave others to work it out, at the same time he deprecated the introduction of all personal matters, which he intended to avoid himself, and hoped that every one would receive a fair hearing. He regretted that so much apathy had existed amongst the electors, who he thought should have met amongst themselves and requested candidates to come forward rather than allow men to nominate themselves. Amongst other arguments in favour of the resolution, he adduced an instance at Adelaide where a member, who had bren called upon by upwards of one hundred and seventy of his constituents to resign, had returned for answer, he was elected for three years and defied them to do their worst. The Queen had reserved the light of removing the Superintendent through the Governor, ought not the people, the source of power, to exercise the right of removing their representatives if they exercised their trust unwisely ? Mr. A. then explained the nature of the pledge, and observed that there was a difference among his friends whether the supporters of the candidate or the constituency at large should exercise the ris*ht of calling upon the member to resign, and after expressing his desire to hear the arguments on both sides, concluded by moving the following re solution. That in ihe event of the Candidate forfeiting the confidence of his constituency hesh?ll pledge , himself to resign his trust into their hard* ' upon receiving a requisition to that .effect, signed by a majority of hit supporters, .such" requisition to be preceded by a public meeting of bis .supporters held for the purpose of inquiring into his conduct, he being preseut to explain. Seconded .by Mr. Churchill. Mr. Carter said t. at on a question of such importance he hoped ft fair hearing would be granted, and that it would be decided on i(ts merits. He had seen an advertisement calling the present meeting, in which the electors were called upon to protect their rights. He could not express his astonishment at hearing the resolution that had that night been submitted to them, it sould not have been greater if it had been proposed to petition His Excellency to create their chairman aJ. P. (LaugHter). Mr. D. O'Connell had said he could drive a coach and horses through any Act of i Parliament, and the came remark would apply to the pledge before them. Any one who should take that pledge could oppose cheap land, or saddle the New Zealand Company's debt on the Colony, or bring back the old price of land. Was not the candidate's ad. j dress in itself a printed pledge ? (Hear) Let them not be deceived, if a pledge were neces- \ sary the candidate must take not only that but : other pledges along with it. And if a member who had taken the pledge were to betray his trust, he would not scruple to refuse to resign when they .called upon him to do so. He then read his amendment, on which be proceeded to offer a few observations. With regard to cheap land which had been recently brought into operation, be said they had already had proof of its good effects. Experience had shewn that dear land did not prevent" speculation or land jobbing ; and though it was said that the speculator would buy up the land, they would find a land tax would put a *top to monopoly in land and prevent absenteeism. (Hear). Objection had been made to $jp difficulty of collecting such tax, but the difficulty would not be found greater than that of collecting the Income Tax in England. If their members were pledged to a land tax they would carry it, (Cheers). He then referred to the New Zealand Company's debt, and concluded b\ describing the pledge to be only clap trap, a" mare's nest with a red herring in it, which would be of no good to the country. (Hear). Mr, Carter then moved as an amendment. That this Meeting pledget itself to support no candidates who will not agree to support the following measures ;' — Ist.— Cheap Laud as passed by the recent Proclamation oi Sir Geotge Grey, 2nd.-— A strict investigation into the debt of the New Zealand Company, with a view to deduct all fraudulent charges, 3rd. — A Tax on land. Seconded by Mr. J. Blyth. Mr. Fit? Herbert considered the arguments brought forward in support of the original-re-solution to be so completely refuted by Mr,

Carter, that it was scarcely incumbent on hi 11 * to notice them, lie had hoped to see other" persons present there that evening. «nd he hatf attended himself because he would not have it imputed to bin) that he was afraid to face any' man. He* wished to say a few words as to thef mode in which the meeting had been called together i he believed it had originated with one or two persons, and not with the mass of the ; people. The resolution had been supported in j a very feeble manner, but he (Mr. F.) was glad of this opportunity of coming before them, and of explaining his opinions, because on the day i,of nomination, the number of candidates with their movers and seconders would leave to each person but very little time. He would begin by referring to some personal matters, and by explaining that the mover of the resolution had been solicited to be on his commjttee, and had been exceedingly desirous to press this* point of pledging, but finding he (Mr.F.) would not take any pledge, had declined to serve on his committee. He (Mr. F.) thought it necessary to mention he had not waited, asothers had done, to allow himself to be put in' nomination, he had net coquetted with the* electors or exhibited any delay in order to be? asked to become a candidate. He had put for--ward his address at once, and had fully explain* ed his opinions on all those points that were interesting to the electors. ' From the active part he had taken in the struggle. for Bepresentative Institutions he could have done no other- ' wise, but he was not greedy for power and would leave the matter as regarded himself in their hands. Notwithstanding the numerous promises in his favour his committee had received, he (Mr. F.) would absolve the electors, from every promise, if they lacked any confidence in him ; if they felt the slightest doubt or want of confidence in him he was willing to cancel every name out of his polling book (Hear.) He would now speak to the general principle of the original motion. He contended the pledge was unconstitutional, and unfair to the inhabitants of the Province, as a man who was returned by a section of the electors might be called upon to resign by a majority of that section, though perhaps the majority of the constituency were in his favour, and it was important for them to bear in mind that a member represented not merely the town for which he was elected but the whole Province. It was unfair to the representative, as it was an admission that they had no confidence in him and ought to keep him right, and was calculated to make him lose his selfrespect. It was an undue interference which they would not tolerate in common matters of business, and if they had not a certain amount of confidence in thbir representatives, they should withhold their votes. They had now a most popular form of Government (hear) ; but this was one of the rocks on which they were in danger of running. The evil of undue interference had been ohewn in the times of the French Revolution, and had led to the establishment of a, military despotism. It might happen here, that some, case touching the pocket might arise, some public work, perhaps a wharf, for which the -people of Wellington might wish to have the lion's share, perhaps half of the money available for improvements. He (Mr. F.) having .regard to the general interests of the Province might with for a more equitable distribution of the money ; in the excitement of the moment a public meeting might be held, and he might ho called upon to reMgn at once, and if he swallowed that pledge he must resign (hear.) He objected further that the pledge would open the door to all aorta of political intrigue, and put it in the power of an unscrupulous ,man to make a party by creating a few vacancies, and disturbing the community every six or twelve months with fresh elections. But there was another point which he thought a clincher. He, considered the pledge to be ineffectual, inoperative, in fact, quite harmless. It was mere political pap (laughter) and he considered this designation of it so appropriate that he was ready to make a present of a wooden spoon to every one who would take this pap (laughter.) A great deal had been said about the power being vested in the people; he thought the same, and would have this check rein not of papkthread but of good sole leather, Mr. Allen in his speech had described the pledge to be a simple but effectual apparatus for doing their business, but he (Mr. F.) was rather nonplussed as to its operation. Jf the horses were to run away with the coach, if they had no other check but that, they might as well attempt to pull them up at full gallop with a silken thread. Some question might arise-«rperhaps the price of land, the Council might meet, certain members might desire to have it at £3 an acre, the poor pie would be in an uproar, the members might express their readiness to resign, in the meantiaie the thing was done (hear.) He considered the pledge a mere pjJJ pf flour and water j ,the amendment vvoujd atid the genna, salts, and rhubarb that would make it operate (hear,), Itwas intended as a perfect blind, , The candidates had put forward their opinions, but ,thj» was to, be • substitute for all opinions, aa Mori,. son's pills were a substitute for all .other remedies (cheers.) He hoped he had said' enough to induce them to pass the amendment, and throw over the original jresolujion (cheers, and disapprobation). Mr. Hart said the observations made by Mr. Fitjeherbert at the outset of- his speeph, were a challenge to other candidates to pome forward and state their opinions upon the present question, and in doing so he (Mr, H>) would explain why, in acceding to a requisition to allow his name to be proposed as a candidate, he had volunteered the pledge in question. He (Mr. H.); had not sufficient confidence in bis own abilities to conclude that if elected he should be found fully equal to the onerous duties of the position. He could only speak and would go in only as the representative of others. For himself, he did not seek the position, he had not solicited and would not solicit a single vote (Hear). He could easily foresee that it may become the duty p{ their representative to act in opposition to his own personal feelings, to harden himself against influences which, he would find it difficult to resist. It was a pleasing power to distribute money arising from a common fund. It behoved the settlers to watch closely the conduct of their representatives. A very short time would suffice to shew whether the member does his duty or not, and he ought not to keep his place if he does not (hear,) But

* if they elect members for four years without - exacting some such pledge, able members will Ibe found saying — well, because I know better "than all the other inhabitants; I understand their want* better than they do themselves, "here I am and here I will remain. (Hear, hear) 'They had been told that the pledge if taken would be inoperative ; in other words that the •candidates who are now before the public are ao unworthy, so little to be trusted, that if the • electors prevailed upon them to take the pledge, "they would not keep it. Speaking for himself, Tbe declared that having taken that pledge if, Wing elected, he did not keep it they might foand him as the most dishonourable fellow *hat ever landed in New Zealand. And it appeared a strange thii.g to hear Mr. Fitzherbert ■in one breath tell them that if he had taken the jpledge he would be bound, on the occasion happening, to resign, and yet that it will be inoperative. (Cheers.) Mr. H. observed the resolution proposed, as an amendment was not inconsistent -with the original motion. He supposed the 3jreat majority were in favour of the objects by the amendment. So long back as 1845 he (Mr. H.) proposed a scheme for enforcing & land tax, to meet the objertions of those who' asserted that a land tax would fail to Teach absentees. - (Hear.) With regard to the New Zealand Company's debt, he would say -put them upon proof of it (Hear, hear.) He ufc terly ptotesed against. the admission of Id. of it as a charge against this colony until the justice of their claim has been established. (Cheers) It may be said the right of the Company is confirmed by Act of Parliament, but Acts of Parliament may be repealed, and now that for the Jirst time they, the parties interested, have an opportunity of being heard on the question they have a right to know the grounds upon which this charge is imposed on' the colony, He wanted- to know why a trading Company.having foiled after much assistance from the Bri ish public* was to charge the balance of their losses upon the colony. . They had spent, not merely* the price paid- for -the land sold, (that they had a right to do, after providing for emigration) in addition, to the money of the shareholders {that too they were entitled to do so long as the shareholders put confidence in them,) but also large sums supplied by the British public, and of that expenditure the colonists were not the parties to Complain. But when/ after all this, they- sought to enforce a right founded upon an Act of Parliament charging their losses upon a weak and dependent colony unheard and ■unrepresented, the colonists, for the first time having a voice in the matter, are bound to protest and ask to know the grounds, and lie believed that if the claim was steadifly ■resisted it would not be enforced. (Loud efceers.) As to .cheap land he (Mr, H.) was opposed to it when the Proclamation was fijst issued. A land tax was not then talked about. He feared the low price might operate to prevent the actual settler from ob aining laad, hat with a land tax to prevent monopoly be approved of thereductioß. Too much stress faad been laid on the idiffetence of araoeot produced (jy sale of land after raising the price itn the other colonies. The fact vss that so aauch 1 i«d bad previously been sold torsueculators, iksX urixaa the price was raised theytoould well afford to undersell the (Government. Mr. Hart eonduded by observing that. as four year* atthe present time may be of morei«jK)rtaaee€or good or evil than ten years at some future period, judging from hie iowfl feelings as an elector of what should be caquired from a candidate, he as a candidate had (volunteered the pledge and would auppbrt the .original motion • (Cheers.) Mr. Moojts would have hardly considered it to fcave epukea on this "question, were it not that fee desired td reply to Mr. Fitzher(bent's assertion that ifcwxM derogatory to any (Candidate to give such a pledge as that which had been brought before the meeting by Mr. Allen. He (Mr; M,) had upon mature deliberation and of his own free will and judgment already given the pledge, and he begged ♦noet distinctly to deny that there was anything (derogatory ia doing so. What was the meaning (Of becoming a Representative, and whom did * candidate represent but those who seat him to the Council. £f, then, at any time, or under any circumstances, he censed to represent them, if he falsified the expectations upon. which he obtained his seat, if his services ceased to be valuable or desirable to his constituents, he was bound to return at their request the trust to those who confided it (Cheers,) With as much justice rotght a man, who had received valuable consideration for something which he failed to perform, refuse the right of the party with whom he bargained to be reimbursed or repaid. The votes were given upon certain considerations, if these considerations were not fulfilled * what course ' could any honest man pursue but to return the votes to those who gave them. He could not understand why Mr, Fitzherbert who refused one pledge, warwilling to take three. (Hear.) In the present new and untried state of men and things he thought the electors had a right to some guarantee before- they parted" with' their votes (hear,) Mr/ Fitzherbert had said he should go to Council to represent ' the whole community of the' province, how could, he fairly assume to represent; those- who knew nothing about him.except perhaps his name ; and would not every section or class or interest in the whole province be represented by its own par- 1 ticular candidate ?. .With regard to the three pledges contained in the amendment, he perfectly agreed with them ; he wrb jn favour of the recent Land- Regulations, (hear.) he had already voted in Council fora tax on land. And while he was of opinion that not one farthing of the Company's debt was morally chargeable on the colony, he could not, deny that we had become legally charged with it, but he submitted only legally charged with such portion as upon strict investigation could be sustained. an<J if he were a party to any such scrutiny, the New Zealand Company would find in him no friendly scrutineer, and he would be glad to find that it could be legally as well as moraly resisted (cheers.) As the Chairman had assented to Mr. Fitzheibert's suggestion that after this discussion, other matters might be brought forward, he (Mr. M.) would remain to answer any questions, relevant to the coming electiuqs, upon which nny elector might desire inforroattpt, (Applause') Mb. Fitzhjjrbert wished to explain, in consequence of an observation that fell from Mr. Moore, that he would . instantly resign! if he

voted contrary to the ( principles contained in the amendment. Mr. Duncan thought the" present time rendered it imperative on' the electors to express their opinions with' reference to public questions. Several candidates had already stated their sentiments regarding this pledge, which had been extensively adopted in England. He thought Mr.' Fitiherbert's speech, though no doubt very able in many fespecW abounded in fallacies, and the greatest of them Was his evasion of the pledge that night. As an elector he had taken the opportunity of addressing them, and he would do so apart from any personal feelings. Mr. Fitzherbert had talked a great deal about wooden spoons, but it was clear to him that instead of a wooden spoen, they should present Mr. Fitzherbert with a tod of iron, as he appeared disposed to rule them in a very despotic manner (cheers and disapprobation.) Mr. Allen would say a few words on the amendment that had been proposed to the meeting. No doubt ridicule was a very powerful weapon, and Mr. Fitzherbert had made great use of it- that evening, but what could they think of the string of resolutions that had been brought forward as an amendment to the original resolution; which its opponents were ashamed to meet with a direct negative (uproar.) " Gentlemen, strike but hear." Mr. Allen then- proceeded to observe he had often heard Chartist orators in England, and their speeches seemed to be stereotyped and handed from one to another, many of their arguments had been borrowed by »he opposite side but there was nothing new about them, but it was new.to'himto see those who profassed tube the people's champions trying to keep down the people under their thumb (interruption.) He fully concurred in the amendment, which was not opposed to the resolution he had moved. The original resolution had broken the ice, if it was passed they could have another meeting at which" the candidates could enter intoany explanations they thought fit to make. A good deal had been said by Mr. Fitzherbert about the way in which the present meeting had been called, but it was necessary for some one to stir in the matter, somebody must bell the cat. (Hear.) They could not forget the way in which meetings had been called by the Constitutional Association, with John Dorset in the chair, and the platform filled by their own supporters and a lot of people summoned for the occasion. (Interruption, chiefly by Mr. Waters, who was so very noisy the chairman was obliged on several occasions to threaten to have him turned out.) Mr. Fitzherbert had been pleased to say the original motion had been brought forward in a feeble manner ; he (Mr. A.) regretted to see so few candidates willing to face the electors. Nine of them in their addresses had agreed to take the p'edge, but Mr. Fitzherb?rt had said they did not know what they, were about, and had talked of pills and pap in a way that stunk very much of the shop (bravo and uproar.) The way in which tlie amendment had been brought forwarJ re- # minded him of the way that physic was served "out on board ship. First came the lob-lolly boy, vd|« mixed up the dose under the doctor's direction, (laughter) then the doctor, but he (Mr. ,A) thought. the .patient' should have something to say in the matter. (Cheers.) He (Mr.A.) had come forward purely on public grounds, "and he . did expect to have seen the resolution fairly met, and not attempted to be got rid of by a side wind. When Sir George Grey's Land Regu- ' lations were brought out who \vere the men that had got up a cabal to defeat it? (cries of name) He <Mr. A ) had not alluded to any one individual and therefore he would- not mention any name: but it was well known' that many of those who professed now to be in favour of ckeap land, if they had n,ot been violent in their opposition to the Governor's Land Regulations, had been, to say the least, very lukewarm and tardy in supporting them. He (Mr. A.) contended Mr. Carter's motion was not an amendment, it was not opposed to the original retoiation and therefore could not set it aside. Mr. Fitzherbert had said a great deal to shew how the pledge might be evaded, and had compared it to a piece of packthread : to a well trained steed a silken cord would be sufficient to guide him, liut a vicious horse would not be held in by an iron chain. Mr. Fitzherbert argued as if he were the only honest man, and looked upon those who required the pledge to be a set of confounded rogues. He (Mr. F.) had said he would not wait to be asked, but would resign if he differed from his constituents, but he constituted himself the judge. Mr. A. • concluded by hoping that the meeting would deal fairly and openly with the resolution before them. (Hear, hear.) *~ Mr. Brown supported the original resolution, and expressed his disapproval of the sarcastic manner in which .Mr. Fitzherbert had referred 'to the way. in which the meeting had been called. He liked fair play, and thought anyone might call a ,nieeting. but it was at the option of the electors.whjether or not they chose to atten>l. He agreed with Mr. Allen thai the amendment did not contradict the original motion, and objected to the attempt, that had been made to get rid, of it. Mr. Hart, said that after the, exhibition of feeling by the meeting, he would propose that the resolution and amendment be incorporated, (and put, to .the, meeting as one resolution. (Cheers.) ' - >•„ Mr. Brown seconded Mr. Hart's motion. Mr. FixzHKRBKaT replied to Mr. Brown's observations, and said that while he acknowledged the sovereign power of the people, he desired to reserve the independence of the representative. It would be the happiest moment of his life if he were not elected, but whether elected or not lie would never take the pledge. Mr. Hart's amendment was- then put to the meeting by the Chairman, and declared by him to be carried. A great uproar followed this announcement ; . Mr^ Fitzherbert and his party accusing the chairman of partiality, and trying to overthrow his decision. After a short interval the chairman dissolved the meeting and left the chair. Another meeting was then and Mr. Barry was appointed chairman. Several ineffectual attempts were made by Mr. Fitzherbert and his party to get rid of the decision of the previous meeting. After some further discussion Mr. Moore appealed to the meeting and begged they .would respect the position in which

they had recognised the Chairman during the whole of the proceedings up to this point. They had the Chairman's decision that as far as he could judge, the meeting was in favour of Mr. Hart's amendment, (uproar) that question was therefore determined. (Interruption). If the Chairman had given a wrong decision he was responsible to public opinion for doing.s o, he did not think that he had done so,. there^wouM always be a dissatisfied paVty on one side :or the other, and if. the dissentients were' to be allowed to question their Cbairman.'s decisions in the way now proposed, no decision would ever be arrived at. Those who desired to question the decision had a course open to them by calling another meeting, and he had no fear for the result. It was not, however, to this that he now wished to speak, but as he understood that after the first question was disposed of, Mr. Fitzherbert and himself or any other Candidate would any questions from any Elector present, he was there for that object now, which jf not pursued he should leave the Meeting and he suspected many others would do the same. Mr. Brown wished to ask. Mr. Moore, as he referred to his past conduct as a guarantee for the future, when he accepted the office of Nominee if he was not aware tHe • majority of the colonists were opposed to at? -" Mr. Moore had no hesitation in answering ■ Mr. Brown's question. When he accepted a seat in the Council, the colony .was in a very different state from the present* and he did then, as he could but do now, what he conceived to be his duty ; he could not then derive any position from his fellow-colonists, they had it not in their power to bestow, or he might perhaps then have occupied the same position in which he now found himself ; but however that might be, when he saw the Governor thwarted and opposed* by those who ought to have been foremost to support him, when he saw that he offered , to all ( shades of interest and opinion an opportunity of aiding and assisting in the Government, and that those who from station and • talent, could have been useful in doing so, refused to aid in the only way in which the Government could be carried on, and attempted to bring it to a dead lock ; then under a strong sense of public duty he accepted a position for which he never possessed in his own estimation sufficient talent or influence; but had he and others influenced by the same considerations not done so, the Government would have probably been brought to a stand still, and the result, would have been anarchy and confusion. All would remember what a strong feeling had existed in regard to the Native question ; when at one time it was considered a reproach to be in favour of the Natives (interruption and cries of "Go on,") — He had acted from an honest conviction that the mild but firm and wise temporising policy of the Governor-in-Chiefwas the best course, arid had to his ability supported him, and the results of the last five years must have convinced everybody that that policy was successful, and in his (Air. M.'s) honest opinion had rather advanced than retarded the introduction of Representative Institutions (cheers.) , Were not the Natives, he would ask, a most important element in our progress, did not 'their production and consumption form most -considerable items "in the commerce' of. the' colony-^h'd if any attempt had been made at that \ time to coerce the Natives, as some of the leaders of public opinion desired, what might have been the re,sult? He regretted that he had:'%othad stfm'e preparation for this question — bethought someof the inflammatory articles of a portion of the press of that period would fully bear him out in fearing at least for the consequences, which had happily been averted because a man held the reins of Government who best knew how to grapple with and treat this difficult question* (♦Three cheers for Sir George Grey.) He believed the peace, happiness, and improved state of the natives, and the colony, generally to be entirely owing to the wise', prudent, and able administration of Sir George Grey. (Cries of ' that's true/ and cheers.) He ' needed no further justification of the course he had pursued, than a consciousness of having done his duty to the best of his ability ; if he had derived his position from the people-h e would have been accountable to them, but^from whatever source he had derived it he could do no other than he had done in acting and voting according to the dictates of duty and conscience, in rqspect to the legally constituted authority, and for the public good. — Well, laws were passed for useful "public objects, such as Avill have to be passed again, and he regretted to say that upon one occasion he had seen those who were bound to maintain and carry out the law, nay, had sworn to do ' so, banded together to try to defeat the law. (Cheers.) He should always desire to respect the law, and -when he could not do so he should consider, it his duty to leave the country. In accepting a seat in Sir George Grey's Council he had oecome the nominee of one man, the onlyt'o'fefe' having the pqsver to confer the office, and,ij&he. were elect ed by his fellow colonists hg would be the nominee of two, three, 1 or four "hundred, or as many as might vote for him. v '(Chfe>.rs.) Mr.'. M'Kbnzib attempted^ address the meeting, but after severa^ineff^c^a^effprts ,was utterly unable to obtain' a hearing" He then asked Mr. Moore if he wouliT demand an enquiry into the Parliamentary^GEant for New Zealand, and if he would vqte % far.annual parliaments. To the first question^Mr. Moore replied in general terms, andtoQ^he second referred Mr. M'Kenzie ,to Mr. .Fitzherbert, who was a candidate for the General Assembly, in which such questions would be entertained, and not in the Provincial Council, but said that his private opinion wa9 opposed to annual Councils. Mr. Fitzherbert met Mr. M'Kenzie'* question with a decided negative. In answer to some questions "relative to the Legislative Council l Mr. Fitzherbert explained that in his address to the electors, he had proposed that the Upper House should be elective, and had suggested a limitation of the franchise, and such other restrictions as would prevent it from becoming an unmeaning repetition of the other 1 house. He thought it desirable to preserve the conservative element as a necessary check on the lower bouse. He also thought the members should be older men, as a counterpoise to the rashness of the other Assembly. The best

qualification,- in . his- opinion, for that purpose was age. •After some farther discussion, a 5a s . vote of thanks was parsed to the chairman "and themeeting broke up.