MEETING AT THE HUTT FOR DISCUSSING THE LAND QUESTION.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 817, 1 June 1853, Page 2

MEETING AT THE HUTT FOR DISCUSSING THE LAND QUESTION.

A Public Meeting was held at the long room of the Aglionby Arms, near the Hutt Bridge, on Friday last, in , accordance with a circular which had been previously issued,,for discussing the land question. The room was quite full, and several persons who were unable to gain admittance, remained outside the building. Upwards of 200 persons were present. Shortly after one o'clock Mr. G. Scott, having been called to the chair — • The Chairman, in opening the business of the meeting, said they had met to discuss a question which was deeply interesting to all who were connected with New Zealand. .He .stated they were lully aware that Mr. E. G. Wakefield, a gentleman who had taken a most- prominent part in the concerns of the colony, would give his opinion on this question. He highly eulogized Mr. Wakefield for the active part he had taken in the' different questions affecting the interests of the colony, and appealed to the justice of the* meeting and their lovej^fair play as Englishmen to give every man, whatever his opinions, a- fair and impartial hearing, and not to allow any boisterous clamour to disturb their proceedings. A He expressed his resolution to prevent the discussion from becoming a party question, in which he' hoped he would be supported by the meeting, and after having read the outline of. the matter proposed for discussion, as previously' arranged by the committee, called on Mr. Wakefield to introduce the subject, who spoke as follow*, Mr. Chairman, Gentlemen, — I "rise in obedience to what appears to be a call from the meeting that this discussion should .be opened by me. * It would have been more agreeable to rr.e if others were to state their opinions .first. But as ihe meeting decides otherwise,' I submit myself to their wish. The printed programme, or outline of the subject for discussion, which you, Sir, haveiead to the meeting,' and of which I hold a copy in my hand, embraces such s variety of distinct and yet complicated topics, all of them more or less important, that an attempt by any man to expound his opinions with regard to them would occupy more than the whole-time of the meeting. lam not going to make so ' futile an attempt. 1 came here, hoping rather to hear the opinions of the leading public men in this Province, than intending to set forth my own, which have been published ovei and over again in all sorts of forms — in Parliamentary papers, in pamphlets, in newspapers, and in thick volumes of print : but I did expect to be examined here with regard to ray opinions, as I understand that others who may differ from me, are prepared to be examined with regard to theirs, (hear hear.) For the purpose, therefore, of submitting myself to suc.h examination, I will just touch upon the principal topics mentioned in this paper : and I shall very much wish, if the meeting will so far indulge me, to dwell upon two or three of them sufficiently for the purpose of fully explaining my view of some questions of the deepest moment to the Colony, and to this Province in particular, which 'must be practically and promptly solved when the General and Provincial Parliament* of New Zealand shall be got into session. It would likewise be a great satisfaction to me, if this meeting should, kindly give me an opportunity of correct? ing some misapprehensions with regard to my own opinions and objects (hear, hear), which prevail in the colony, and more especially in this Province, where these misconceptions have been cultivated by long and assiduous misrepresentation. Such an opportunity has been the" objept .of ray wishes from the moment when I landed .on the beach at Wellington. Some of those who have .misrepresented me (not wilfully, I am anxious to believe), are present here to day ; and they will have au opportunity of repairing the injustice they have done me, if you, Sir, and the meeting, should be pleased to hear from ma a true representation of the matter (cheers). - s The first question raised ,by this outline of the subject for discussion, is whether the General Assembly or the Provincial Governments should administer the disposal of waste land. Upon .that poin.t I have no sort of doubt or hesitation. If I, could have had my own way altogether when the Constitutional Act was passed through Parliament, the Constitution itself would have set'led the question, by placing the administration of waste land in the hands ,of tbe, six Provincial Councils. In June last, when writing to the colony some account (which has been, published here) of the Constitutional Act, I mooted tbe question of Provincial Administration of waste land ; and I intimated an opinion that the Imperial Governm nt woujd readily assent to any ! Act of tbe General Assembly for that^ purpose. Such an act I believe to be indispensable to a good administration .of- the waste land, whatever the plan of disposal may be. If an. nngel descended

to us and formed a plan for us, which everybody should deem absolutely perfect — in which nobody should be able lo discover a single defect — that plan would be Utterly spoiled in the administration, if all control anil management were retained by the Central Government. Let us imagine, Tor example, that we should this day hit upon an immaculate plan ; and that the same should be adopted by the General Assembly as a plan for the whole colony. We must suppose such a jrian to comprise special arrangements for this ot that Province, where special circumstances would demand a peculiar mode of proceeding. But now, who would have to administer the plan ? Why, officers of the General Government ; that is, officers appointed by the General Government, and responsible to it alone. Well, the General Government canuot sit in more than one place at a time. Let us suppose that it was sitting in this Province. From hence its Land-officers would be sent to Auckland or Otago ; from hence its commands to those officers would be issued ; here alone would those officers feel that there was any responsibility for them. But distance alone would put real, responsibility out of the question, just as it would surely render orders issued by the Central authority inapplicable or miichievons to the distant Provinces. (Hear, hear.) The attempt to administer rightly from Downing-street in London, a plan formed by angels, would not be more sure to fail. (Cheers.) Then, what would the people of Otago say ? what those of Auckland ? Fancy a Wellington man whose ties of association, and habit, and affection, are all here — who knows' little about Auckland, and cares less — sent to Auckland as Commissioner ol Public Lands (they have not been Crown Lands since the Constitution was proclaimed,) with instructions framed here by a superior officer just as ignorant and indifferent with regard to the distant Province of Auckland, and not in the least accountable to the people of Auckland. How do you think the people of Auckland would like it ? Now turn the picture a little, and say bow you would - like it, if Auckland were the seat of the General Legislature and, Executive? You would not like it at all ; oh no ! you would hate it most cordially. (Cheers.) But you would prefer a central administration if the seat of government were here, (No, no,) you know you would, though you may not choose to say so, (no,) yes, you wonld. (Load cries of no.) Being human, with human passions and weaknesses, you could not help liking that the patronage of the Auckland Land Office— its clerkshipt, and s uryeyorshipg, and commissionerships, should be "enjoyed by Wellington people. (" No," laughter, and cries of " yes.") And not you, but only the people of Auckland, would feel the inevitable mis-management of an Auckland Land-office dependent on Wellington. What are their feelings to you l Your own feelings are what you care about; and of course it is the same with them. The people at either place would prefer a central administration if its seat were amongst them (repeated cties of "no ") : they would hate it, if its seat should not be amongst them. Once more I say yes, (cries of *' no,") but in order to illustrate my meaning — io make it plain to every one — I 'will, with your permission, tell a short story. The Mayor of on English town,~a popular leader, a great Radical he is said to have been, was in attendance on the troops during a riot, in order, according to the Riot Act, that a civil magistrate should be present to determine when the soldiers might fire at the mob. The mob was very violent, and committed many excesses. , The officer commanding the troops, when matter* were getting serious, asked frequently for permission to fire. A* rotten egg had struck him in the eye, and he was very angry. (Laughter.) But the Mayor continually refused, preaching forbearance and patience to the military. ~ At length, however, an indiscriminating egg broke upou his worship's shirt frill, who instantly shouted " fire, fire, fire." (Shouts of laughter and cheers.) The story is applicable. If Auckland should suffer from a central administration, you will be admirably tranquil, as silent as the tomb ; if Wellington, yoUjWill scream murder. In one word, justice — -that heavenly law which all alike revere — (cheers) — demands that the management of waste land should not be central, but that for each province, equally and alike for all of them, it should be within the Province, and nowhere else. (Cheers.) You agree with roe ; I agree with you ; there cannot be two opinions on the subject. All the reasons which justify the separation of New Zealand into six distinct colonies (for such they are,) with a federal Jie for some few general purposes, are reasons io favour of decentralizing the administration of waste land. (Cheers.) Can anybody mention a reason against it. (" No," " no.") No. Then this is a point not susceptible of discussion. It might ai well have been left out of the programme for to-day, and I should have to ask pardon for dwelling on it so long, only that in truth we have taken a very useful step in settling this question. Instead of thinking about all New Zealand to-day, we may confine our attention to the* Province of Wellington, whose past sufferings and present needs, in relation to the disposal of waste land by Government, you at least folly understand. (Hear, hear, hear.) If Ido not rightly understand them, it is not for want of having taken pains to do bo by the most diligent enquiry ever sine* my arrival in the Province. (Cheers.) • The second question in' this 'circular asks— What are the right objects of a permanent system for the disposal of waste land? That" question might .be answered by another. What are the objects with which people leave their native country when they go forth to subdue and replenish a wilderness ? They are objects which may be by one word — colonization. The land is held by the Government as a trustee for' the people.* The people want to use the land; and the most important business of a colonizing Government, such as each of the six Provincial Governments of New Zealand will soon be', is first to open the land for use by the people, (hear, hear,) and then to take good care that it be not locked up again. (Cheers.) For why do people emigrate ? ("Jb get land/") Yes, to get land : it is because the country of their ''birth *is overcrowded — because the people are too many for' the land ? Therefore, the more adventurous go forth to look for land — to take possession of countries where the soil is unoccupied — 'to woik' out their own independence and happiness by means of acquiring property in iand. As was truly said by an honorable friend of mine at this place not many weeks past— the

darling object of almost every emigrant is to possess land in .the country of his adoption. (Cheers.) If he is poor, as most emigrants are, he desire 3 of course to woik for wages until iiis savings provide him with the means 'of settling upon land ; but when once he has turned this point in his career as a colonist, he longs to work for himself, and not upon any other man's land as a tenant, but upon lnnd on which be can sa y — «« This is mine own, and the fruits of whatever labour I may expend on it will belong to my family." (Loud cheers.) In a new country where there is plenty of unoccupied land, tenancy is as contrary to the nature of things as proprietorship is agreeab'e thereto. (Cheers.) Freehold property, is at one and the same time, the great means, the chief incentive, and the principle of colonial industry, (Cheers.) It follows that the main duty of a colonizing government in disposing of the public wastes for the general good, is to facilitate the acquisition of freehold property by the industrious classes ; not to place the emigrant upon. land the moment he leaves his ship, without experience of the country, without money to support his family, without capital of his own accumulated by working some time for high colonial wages. (Hear, hear.) No ; that would be the height of folly, though it has been frequently practised, but always' with results disastrous to the people with whom }he foolish experiment was made. (Hear.) It is as good for newly arrived emigrants, as for those who have preceded them, that they should work for wages during a term. (Hear, hear.) All classes gain thereby ; the new labourers who learn how to become employers of labour, and the *' old hands" who formerly worked for wages, but who, having got land of their own with capital to work it, are now in urgent need of the assistance of other labour than their own (Cheers.) But the term of labour for hire should be as short as possible consistently with those objects. I have always said so : I have never said anything to the contrary ; and I only repeat myself by eayii-g now, that in ray opinion, subject to the above conditions, that which Mr. Carter termed " the darling object of Xhe industrious classes," cannot be made too easy of attainment. Knock away every impediment that can by possibility be removed. Make the way as smooth as it can possibly be made. This (I would say to a colon : zing government) this should be the aim of all your deliberations, your land offices, your surveys, your regulations, your whole motive power and your whole machinery of government as respects the disposal of waste land, (Cheers.) Keep that principle steadily in view ; never lose sight of it ; make it the guide and test of eveiy step you take; stick to it perseveringly notwithstanding all temptations to the contrary : do this, and so surely you wM do all that can be done by government to promote the most rapid colonization of the wilderness and the permanent happiness of the people (Cheers). Such, gentlemen, is my notion of the objects with which regulations for the disposal of waste land should be framed. I have sai.l so over, and over, and over again, till I was tired of repeating it; and, though ignorance, or jealousy, or the malice of thwarted speculators and monopolists, and all these combined, have represented me as the advocate and promoter of impediments to the acquisition of freehold hnd by the industrious classes — by people willing and able to converOhe wilderness into fertile fields — I feel proud in the consciousness of having done more than any other man has done or attempted, in the work of giving effect to thp.t great principle of colonization (Cheers,) So far as to objects ; lot us now look at ihe means. First of all, before the Government can dispose of land, the laud must be theirs to dispose of. It is absurd to talk of acquiring freeholds from the Government, when the Government itself has no property in the land. It. is worse than absurd in a Government to pretend that they have plenty of freehold land to bestow ! when in fact they have scarcely any ; when they have no control whatever over those portions of the country in which the people most desire to obtain freeholds. This is not so much a folly as it is, to use an expression of Lord Denraan's "a mockery, a delusion, and a snare." (Hear, hear.) Seven years ago 1 quarrelled with the New Zealand Company because they continued to offer freehold land for sale after it had become certain, or at least highly probable, ."that they would not be able to fulfil engagements to that effect. In this Settlement and at Nt.w Plymouth for example, there was at that time scarcely any available land not .tabooed from colonization by the Native Title. In such a country as New Zealand, and especially in this Island, extinction of Native Title is the indispensaLle first step in the work of laying open the land for appropriation and use by the industrious settlers. I ask f' r the most prompt extinction of Native Title in the Wairarapa District. There is a gentleman present, an honourable friend of mine, who, I am told, came hers with the belief in his own rond, and with the intention of saying, that I am for putting difficulties in the way of the" acquisition of .land by the people. I would ask him where, save in the Wairarapa, there is any large extent of available land — that is, land fertile, not densely timbered, and readily accessible — for the use of the people whom mountains hem into the Port Nicholson and Hutt District, and who, as Mr. Moody lately said here must swarm, and will swarm, whatever Government may say or do to the contrary. (Loud cheers.) Does my honorable friend wish that the Wairarapa should be opened without delay for regular and systematic settlement? '(Yes, yes, from Mr. Revans.) Will be assist in promoting that object by helping to get the Native Title extinguished ? Would he, if a member of the House of Representatives, urge the General Government to lose no time in providiDg* funds wherewith to buy out the Native Title in the Wairarapa, and open the land there for use by hard-working settlers swarming over the Rimutaka range ? (Yes, from Mr. Revans.) The ruoney could be got, either in England or Australia, if the .Government of this Province, aided perhaps by the General Assembly, were in earnest about trying to get it. With a full sense of the folly and danger of committing oneself by pledges which it may be impossible to redeem, I will nevertheless undertake that this much needed money shall be got, and got soon too, if my honorable friend, and others who enjoy the confidence of the people, will allow me to join with them in a vigorous effort to obtain it (cheers.) I mention this case as a sample. The same tbing must be done in the Provinces' of Auckland and New Plymouth, unless colonization there is

to languish as it has heretofore done through being "cabined, cribbed, confined" by the existence all round it of a debarring Native Title. Unlock the land ! (Cheers). As a New Zealand colonist, if I were young and strong enough to engage in parly politics, I waul 1 join with no party that did not inscribe on its banner the words "unlock the land !" (Lour cheers.) But the iron barrier which separate's the people from the land has more than one lock to be opened ; and the first key to be used is extinction of Native Title. It is a goldfn key. (Hear, hear.) No other will fit. And if we don't make haste — if we potter and delay about it much longer — not unlocking, but breaking down the barrier will be the process adopted with disaster and sorrow for all concerned. Oh, why is there so much delay in constituting a government capable of handling this difficult and delicate question ? (Cheers.) Next comes the matter of surveys. Waste land not surveyed, is not land open for the people generally ;- it is only land open for a particular class — for the speculators and monopolists whose trade is land-jobbing, and who, directing their whole attention to the subject, with plenty of time at their disposal, can make their selections knowingly without the aid of a survey. This class do not call for ample and accurate surveys. Not they; for 'if the surveys were both ample and correct — if they presented on paper a true and distinct picture of the country — there would in the matter of selection, be equality for the hard-working classes ; and the landjobbing class would no longer enjoy the great advantage which the want of proper survey gives them over all the other classes. (Hear, 1 hear.) - Much experience in various countries has given roe a, general knowledge of the subject of colonial surveying ; and I declare that nothing so bad, — so utterly useless for the true purposes of a survey — ever cime under my notice, as the pretended surveys of the land office here. One of the maps was shewn to me lately by an official gentleman, when I was seeking for information with a view to making a selection of land. A space in the map being left in blank, appeared to represent unselected land ; and the general situation was agreeable to me ; but near to this blank space there were writton words to the following effect — " this block is subject to some unsettled claims." I asked the official gentleman which was the block alluded to. He answered (it was in the presence of four people who have recorded the fact,) " the block upon which the words arc written, to be sure." This was said petulantly, as if I had only shewn my ignorance by the question. I apologised for my ignorance, and looked more closely at the map, when I saw the words were written upon — what do you suppose 11 — not any block' of land at all, but part of the sea in Cook's Straits. (Laughter.) When this was respectfully pointed out to the official gentleman, he, like -a true Jack-in-office, turned up his nose and grunted contemptuously. (Much laughter and cheers.) And this they call surveying for the purpose of colonization. Howe\er, real surveying there must be, both ample and correct, if colonization is to go on well ; and before it cat! Flo so ; for the survey is a preliminary step. It costs money ; like extinction of native title. Where is the money "lo'ccfrne from? Not at first-from sales of land, because the sale does not come till after the survey. Sufficient money would not, probably for some time to come, be got from the ordinary yearly revenue of the Province or the colony. If so, the money must be got by borrowing in England or Australia. I believe that the money would be got, if our government were one to inspire confidence, but not by wishing for it, — not without thought, and care and trouble. (Hear, hear.) Has anybody in the Province yet troubled himself to think carefully over this matter, and mark out what he considers the best mode of proceeding with a view to ample and accurate surveys for the use of tbe people ? I suspect not. (Hear 1 , bear^ I Jiave never heard the subject mentioned b v j|£any of our public mm. But there is no 'jfrae for pursuing tbe subject now. Indeed, I 'ba-v'e only alluded to it for the purpose of declaring these two convictions of my own mmd — first, that the offer of waste land to tbe people without surveys and maps for enabling them to choose on equal terms with the speculators, is a delusion practiseJ on the people ; and secondly, that any one v/ho speaks confidently and authoritatively about the disposal of waste land without attaching great importance to surveys, has but a superficial or shallow knowledge of the whole subject, and is a dangerous guide. (Cheers.) The next question in the order of our pro-, gramme is, whether the land should be disposed of by grant free of cost, or by sale. Upon this point it will be unnecessary for me to detain you more than a few minutes. About twenty years ago, the plan of granting free of cost was in force throughout the colonies of England, 'it produced a variety of very mischievous consequences. The only means by which property in land could be acquired, was favour with the Government ; and this even in colonies having as popular * constitution as that which New Zealand is wailing for. With trifling exceptions now and then, for the sake of keeping up appearances, the whole of the land was profusely jobbed away to people who had go means of using a hundredth part of what they got, and seldom the intention to use any of it themselves. In Western Australia, for example, one man, the cousin of a cabinet minister at home, got 500,000 acres in a block ; and on tbe same day a small number of people got several million acres. In the colony of Prince Edward Island, the whole of the land was given away in one dny, principally to absentees. In New South Wa'es, enormous grants to favourites of the Government, whether at home or in the colony, effectually locked up whole provinces against settlement by the people. The universal effect of the system was to lock up the land, and to keep it for years and years in a stste of wilderness. Nobody gained by it, excepting only the monopolizers, who exacted tribute from people wanting to acquire land, and who, by means of their immense possessions, got everywhere to be masters of the Government and tyrants over the people. (Hear, hear.) ' Of all the plans of colonization ever tried in the world, that is the one which most effectually debarred the industrious classes from acquiring property in land. The system has been' called a hideous monster; and you would not" think the expression too strong, if you knew what multitudinous and grievous evils it occasioned. -That hideous monster, iM may repeat the expression, was struck dead, com-

pletely dead, by one blow ; and that blow was | given by him who lihs now the honour of addressing you (cheers), and who has been described as a promoter of the monopoly of waste land. In one day, at my instigation— "-in compliance with arguments and entreaties addressed by me to the Imperial Government — a the plan of free grants was abolished throughout the colonial dominions of Britain, and the plant of sale established in its place. Never was there; such an unlocking of the land as that (cheers.)' One effect of the change, "amongst others, has j been, taking British North America into calculation as well as the Australias, to enable, not only thousands, not only tens of thousands, but actually hundreds of thousands of industrious people to obtain a freehold properly in land, which never wc/uld have been theirs, which would still have been locked up in the iron grasp of monopoly, if the old system had been preserved., (Cheers.) Shall we revive that system here (cries of " no.") If we did, in few months all the public land in the colony would be given away to a handful of monopolists ; and I suspect that, in the case supposed — if favorites of the Government could get Crown land in large blocks for the asking — very strenuous and very suceessfull efforts would be promptly made to extinguish Native Title for the purpose of converging Ka'ive land into Crown* laud. Who would get the first and largest block ? — half of the Wairarapa for example ? Probably an honorable friend of mine, who is no colonist of New Zealand, but a stranger sojourning amongst us. Mr. Revans rose to order, and protested against such allusions to a gentleman who was absent, and who had a perfect right to keep out of public meetings and discussions if he pleased. [i was most unfair, and unjustifiable ; and again be protested against it. Mr. Wakefield resumed, saving, I cannot understand the objection of ray honorable friend. The gentleman to whom I have alluded is a public character. He meddles assiduously with our. public affairs, and with one affair in particular which is of vast importance to us. Only the other day he signed a public document relating to that aflair and by doing so, if he had not meddled with public matters before, he would have made himself a public character (cheers). I am fully entitled to allude to him, and will do so notwithstanding the interruption of my honorable friend, whose experience of public meetings at home, and in London, should have taught him that in the allusions made by me to that sojourner amongst us, who meddles with our public affairs without being a co'onist, I was strictly in order. (Cheers.) Say, I will, therefore, that he is a stranger in the colony, with no visible occupation but that of dealing in our land, that of meddling with our Land Question, and that of both entertaining and instructing the leisure hours of our Governor with his intimate conversation (cheers.) But others would come in for large slices ; •friends of the working rain;" bawlers for '* cheap, land," (like my honourable friend, whose tongue, if not the loudest in uttering that cry, is certainly one of the most- persevering and iudefatigable ) ; foes of monopoly and inequality ; grantees of Compensation Scrip, and virtually grantors also (for^ they helped themselves) (cheers) ; constant frequenters of the Land Office ; laborious students of maps and plans, and Land Proclamations, and Official Notices about land (cheers) ; the very vermin of colonial life (I "say it with all personal respect to the individuals, some of whom are my personal friends) whom Compensation Scrip has made what they are in the political sense ; excellent gentlemen in private life, but who, with loud professions of regard for the working classes, have never, in all their dealings and doings with land, taken care that the real wants of the working classes should be really supplied, (cheers,) but have managed to divide araq,)gst themselves a very large proportion, to say the least, of all Crown land which has become piivate property since the first sales by the New -Zealand Company (loud cheers). No! we shall never revive the system of free grants : for power in this matter is no longer in the hands of Downing Street, or of a Governor, or of a body of officials, or of the land-monopolizing class, but solely in those of the people—of the industrious wanters of land for use by themselves — who constitute a majority of the electors under our Constitution, and who, when we get that Constitution (it cannot be withheld much longer), will be able through their representatives to settle the whole Land Question once and for ever (cheers). They will cast away the plan of free grants, and adopt the only alternative, which is that of sale (much cheering.) But now I am led on by a natural step from what has just been said, to examine briefly the fourth question in our programme, before going into the question of price. The fourth question ask 3 what are the future evils to be remedied ? It strikes me that the evils to be averted as respects the future, are just the same as those which ought to be remedied immediately. I said just now, that the industrious wanters of land in this Province constitute a majority of the electors* The remark is pregnant with important truth. I was told to-day that in this Valley, out of 279 electors, there are not, exclusive of non-residents, so many as 100 freeholders. (Hear, hear, hear.) Many of these own but small pieces of land. Our friend Mr. Cundy there, who is an old colonist and hard ■ worker, is a "freeholder, owning how much land do you think ? Why a quarter of an acre. (Laughter and cheers.) This proportion of freeholders to electors is the reverse of what usually takes place in colonies. Throughout the United States and in the British Colonies of North America, the freeholders are always a majority of the electors. In some cases, five out of six of the electors are freeholders. It may not be so in New South Wales, where the granting and leasing plans have thrown the bulk of the land into the hands of a very small minority. But I feel sure that the general proportion of freeholders to electors is very far greater than in this Province. The very small proportion here shows how mischievously and cruelly the land is locked up • from appropriation by the industi-ious classes. (Loud cheers.) What ! after thirteen years of colonization, most- of it having taken place in the first three or- four o£ those years, more than half _ of the colonists entitled to vote at elections, arid in this Valley more than two thirds are still without land of their own, or without enough for -the most productive employment of their industry, (Hear.) What has caused this most evil .state

I of things*?/ Let us say that it has arisen, in a great measure,, from errors of the Home Government in' thwarting the New Zealand -Company and the colonists, when colonists antl Company ' ttere pulling together in the same Ifeat; fronV*'_the effetenrss of one Governor, adad. the*' fevfotualion of another (I purposely •'abstain :dji this occasion from all allusion to itTie-«;pi?e,§ejlt (Governor) ; from non-extinction •6f ' Native Title-as to much land ; from long 'flelty in extinguishing Native title as to that land' for which Crown grants have at last been given;" froriv the large proportion of land originally -acquired by absentees, who would not unlock their property for purchase and vise by the'industrious classes; from, in some measure, the Same unwillingness to part with .their .land Uy the resident proprietors of more ? : than the^'could use themselves ; and, finally, Jfromithe'rtwihopoly to a great extent by the non- ' working- "ckssies of the compensation in land -which wai-'gifanted by the Company, (cheers.) Admit that/these were the causes of the evil, -still there 4s tfife evil staring us in the face. Whatever the<causes thereof, the industrious classes intt&ftsettlement have suffered, and are still Wfferfiajl^the evil of being debarred from gaining prorcrty in land. And it is a suffering /tttt-akißJwHb (hear, hear). The other classes wha had from the errors of the GovernmenUsi»the errors or misfortunes of the Company-&snjose sufferings were described as "losses" pwwuced by their being kept out of the enjoyment of hind which they had paid for — obtainedcompensation. Their wrongs were redressed. Verily their compensation was not quite fairly distributed, but just the reverse in my humble opinion ; for many obtained compensation who hud never suffered at all, but had gained by their original investments, whilst others, who suffered greatly, obtained no com-pensation-at all, (cheers). But there was justice in the principle, however erroneous it might have been in other respects ; justice, that is, so far as compensation was due to those who had really , suffered, (loud cheers). The injustice crept in when the plan of scrip was adopted, (hear, hear, hear). In the whole plan, however, independently of unfairness in the distribution of scrip, there was this giand injustice — that those colonists who had suffered most of all — : some of whom had been reduced to feed at times on native cabbage — all of whom had been . disappointed and thwarted in the pursuit of the darling object of almost every emigrant — were left out of the plan altogether (loud cheers). '• Kthey had had representative governmeit then, the case would have been mightily different. Nobody took care of them, and they could not take care of themselves. Their wrongs, including the wrong of having been totally neglected or forgotten by government, and company, and claimants of compensation, are still unredressed. The industrious classes as>a .body suffer ,now the very evV.s which they have suffered all along. After a most careful examination of the subject I, for one, am of opinion that they are justly entitled to redress ; that they have a most equitable title to compensation (cheers). And as justice is, I think, the first consideration in politics — 'as.inmftifff'nfeVeFfdicfes work well-and smopthly in *J^jß»ftnagem'enß of public affairs— so lam clea\:lyVof opinion",' as a matter of policy, that this moss just claim of the present wanters of land for use should be satisfied before Government disposes of any land in any other way (cheers). ■Justice is always politic ; injustice always the reverse. The idea is broached ; the principle is uttered : if they are sound, a sound plan of execution will grow out of what I have just said. At the task of forming such a plan, I shall be happy to work with any who may please to work with me (clieers). We must take good case not to fall into the errors of the Company's plan of compensation scrip (hear, hear). Without pledging myself to an) details, I would mention that a feasable plan seems to me to be the appointment of a responsible Commission (all Commissions will be responsible soon), charged with the business of ascertaining who, amongst the industrious classes in this Province, are real wanters of land for their own use. It would be impossible to distinguish minutely between those who had suffered for a longer and shorter time. The selection should be liberally made, so as to make sure of including the bulk of those who would make good use of land if they could get it. Then to each of these, the Government should award a certain number of acres — suppose we say a hundred — to be given cost free, as Land Compensation has been given to the classes who could take care of themselves. Then a sufficient amount of really available land, and in the most eligible positions, should be placed at the disposal of the Commission, for the purpose of being by them distributed, in sections of 100 acres each, amongst the intended grantees. The principle of distribution might be that of determining the order of selection by lot. In the order of selection so determined, T would have every maa chuse for himself, out of the whole quantity, just where he pleased. In order to render this freedom of choice possible, it would be necessary to have an accurate survey, depictured on a map, multiplied by lithography, so that everybody could carry a map about with him when examining the country with a view to gaining that knowledge which would enable him to selert judiciously. With such a map for use, the selections would be made without a dispute, as they always have been made in the Canterbury block; and the last stroke of work — namely, giving possession by the surveyors of the Commission, — would be performed without delay or difficulty. However, if any number of the class in question wished to join together in founding a Township on some such plan as that of Mr. Masters, I would let them chuse their land in a block for that purpose ; and for the purpose of enabling them to work out a joint-stock plan without danger of suffering from individual responsibility for acts of the Company, I am sure that the Government ought to give them a charter of incorporation and limited liability. There is an outline of my views with regard to a mode of remedying " present evils." It would be for the people themselves, in their representative assemblies to take care that such eiv/s did not grow up again, and necessitate^another exception from the wholesoE^geliei ai rule of sale instead of grant. Tb^Twho wish to misrepresent me, will say- that in making this proposal, I abandon my own principles and opinions. Nonsense! the principles and opinions which I have formed iv the abstract — tli t

is, without relation to special cii curastances — remain untouched by this proposal. Gross mismanagement and a wide departure from what 1 deem right principles, have produced in this settlement an evil state of things which must be remedied somehow (cheers.) It is an exceptional state of .things ; and I believe that it can only be remedied by a process exceptional from principles which are right in the abstract. I believe, too, that unless, and until, it shall be remedied, right principles have no chance of a fair trial. Therefore this special proposal is not inconsistent with my hostility to free grants, but logically, and most strictly, consistent with it (cheers.) In conclusion, with regard to this subject, it seems highly probable that in other provinces than Wellington, but especially in Auckland, New Plymouth, and Nelson, similar evHs call for a like remedy. I am not sure on that point ; and I only mention it (as there are Reporters present) in order to invite the settlers in the other provinces to supply me with information on the subject* If they will favour me so far, I shall feel greatly obliged to them. Turning to the 7th, Sth, and 9th questions in the programme I would begin by drawing comparisons between a uniform fixed price, and different fixed prices according to quality and situation ; also between the plan of a fixed price or prices, and the plan of sale by auction with an upset price or prices. These questions are briefly considered in a paper which I hold in my hand, and which was published four or five years ago. It sets forth my own views, briefly but with sufficient fulness. With the permission of the meeting, I will read it, premising, that it describes a plan which has been most successfuly adopted in the Canterbury Settlement : (Mr. Wakefield here read a long extract from a treatise " On -Surveying Waste Lands," and then continued.) I come now at last to the question of " cheap land " and " dear land ;" and I am npt going to blink the question by playing tricks with words. If you will be so kind as to listen patiently for a little while, my inmost thoughts on the subject shall be laid bare to you. It would be easy for me to cry "cheap land," and to denounce " dear land." What can be easier than to do that ? Nothing so easy as vague professions, in words to which different meanings can be given: nothing so easy as to acquire a popularity depending.on a parrot-like repetition of the same vague cry (hear, hear.) But there is a true old proverb which says, that things very easily got are the reverse of nice. Let us therefore come to a thorough understanding of what we mean by " cheap '» land. I mean by it, land which is cheap a the price ; not cheap in comparison with other land of more value in the market, but cheap in the sense of being worth more than its price. For example, there are two horses for sale. The price of one is £30 ; but he is only worth £20. This is a dear horse. The price of the other is £40 ; but he is worth £50 : therefore he is a cheap horse. Anything for sale is dear or cheap m proportion as it is worth more or less than its price (cries of " hear.") I wi§h_ the price of land to be such, that every buyer* shall inevitably make a good investment ; such a price, in other words, as will deter no true settler from buying, though it may deter mere speculators and monopolizers, and, by so deterring that class, may keep the land open for true settlers to buy whenever they want any. For mind, we are talking about a permanent system to he established according to my view, after justice shall have been satisfied — after present evils shall have been remedied— by a distribution of land cost free amongst present real wanters of land for use. And in framing a permanent system, the first object should be, as I have said before, to keep the land unlocked for acquisition by the industrious classes — to prevent a general monopoly of land by speculators — an aim which, long study and experience have taught me to believe, can only ] be accomplished by means of such a price as will deter the mere speculator. So, according to ray view, land which the mere speculating jobber would call" dear," would be " cheap land " for the true settler, because its price would have been the means of keeping it open for purchase by the true settler class at a price which will not deter men of that class from buying. You will not have failed to observe* that the loudest and most eager advocates of what they call " cheap land" are the greedy speculators) who long to acquire without intending to use. By cheap land for themselves as buyers, which they undoubtedly mean, (trust them for that) (cheers,) they intend dear land for buyers from them as sellers ; which is dear land for the people (cheers.) Now I mean that the land shall be as cheap as possible for the. people, so that it be dear enough for the speculators to keep those harpies off the people's rightful domain. You see what different meanings the words " cheap " aud " dear " will bear according to the objects of him who uses them. My object is to preserve the people's domain from wrongful monopoly by speculators (cheers), and, at the same time; to avoid doing anything which would deter the people from acquiring private property in land (cheers.) In seeking to hit upon the right price, all these considerations would weigh with me. And then, having regard to a permanent system, I believe ' that apublic revenue derived from the saleof waste land may be so used as in a short time to double, treble, and often multiply five-fold, the market value of every acre sold by the Government. When that effect is produced, then, I «ay, there is cheap land for buyers ftom the Government. (Cheers.) Bare land alone, without extinction of Native title, without surveys, without roads, bridges, ferries. &c, •is absolutely worthless, and would be dear at half a farthing per acre ; nay, would be dear if the Government paid the owner for living upon it, (Cheers.) Looking to a permanent system, I should endeavour to* provide, not indeed such an immediate revenue as would pay for extinction ot Native title, surveys, roads, &c, in respect of all land sold, but su*tfh a revenue in prospect, as would' induce capitalists out of New Zealand to lend us, on the security of future sales, plenty of money for these puTfH|es. I am conscious, (and I published my befef by anticipation, immediately after the re<ieipt in England of news about the gold in Australia) that amongst other momentous consequences of Australian gold for all this part of the world, it has become

idle to think of paying for labour emigration from Britain to New Zealand by means of a New Zealand land revenue (hear, hear ;) but I hope and believe that some other means will be found of providing help, and increased means of production, for every true colonist who settles upon land of his own, so that he may not only be a landowner, but also may become comparatively rich as such. (Cheers.) Therefore I do not quite lose sight of -labour immigration as a means of prosperity for this colony, and as one amongst other means of making the value of land far exceed its original price-; that is, making it cheap at the original price. But independently of labour immigration, land would be dear at any price unless we had a prospective land revenue, on the security of which to raise money for all sorts of purposes which add to the value of land. Consequently, I think that the original price of land should be such as to hold out the prospect of a land revenue as a security for loans. The considerations which I am laying before you, are numerous and complicated: They, and perhaps many more, are the guides by the help of which a colonizing government would endeavour to find the right price. I -am not a colonizing Government, j As a mere private person,without either responsibilityor power, I have always refused to undertake the task of suggesting a price for waste land. Hypothetically indeed — that is arguing on supposititious cases — I have of.'en gone through a sum which brought out a price. I have calculated thus : if so and so is the case, then the proper price would be so and so. But making a calculation full of " ifs" with a sum at the end, is not naming a price. I have always carefully avoided being such a goose as to say positively — this or that is the right one. In 1849, just after drawing a price ouf of one of those hypothetical sums, — sums full of " ifs" — I wrote and published what shall now be quoted :—: — " It is quite true lhat I have been frequently and tauntingly required to mention what I deem the sufficient price. But I have hitherto avoided falling into the trap, which that demand upon me really is. I might have named a price, and stuck to it without giving reasons ; in other words, I might have practised a Colonial Office ' shift,' by, " deciding categorically, so as not to expose the superficiality in propounding the reasons;" [Please to understand, gentlemen, that the words •deciding categorically, so as not to expose the superficiality in propounding the reasons, 1 are not mine, but snme of the obscure and pedantic language which is commonly used by tho Colonial Office. In the present case, these words would signify naming a price without giving any reasons for it. I will now proceed with the quotation from what was published by me in 1849.] "or I might have named a price, and attempted to justify the decision by reasons : but in the one case, you Mr. Mothercountry would have been entitled to call me a charlatan, and in the other a goose. For there is no price that would be suitable for the colonies generally : the prce m 'st needs vary according to peculiar natural ana other circumstances in each colony ; and in order to determine the price fox any colony, practical proceedings of a tentative or experimental nature are indispensable. If so, what a mess I should have got info, had I responded to the taunting call of Mr. Mothercountry and his allies !'* I have never professed, and I do not now profess, to do more than indicate the considerations which should weigh in fixing upon a price. Nothing is easier, except crying " cheap land," than to name a price. Mr. So-and-so names ten shillings. Why not five, or four, or one ? What are the reasons of Mr. So-and-so's price ? That is what I want to hear. (Cheers.) In proposing to grant some land for nothing, as I have done to-day, I gave my reasons in full. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) An honorable -friend of mine who is strongly in favour of ten shillings, told me the other day, in so many words, that he felt warmly, very warmly, on the subject, but could give no reasons for his faith (laughter and cheers). Surely that is not a faith at all, but only a droll kind of sentiment. Now, so far as I have ever had a sentiment on this subject, ! I have felt it to be either most unwise or not quite honest, to name a price without having reasonably got at one by entering fully into a great number of considerations, and carefully applying them to the peculiar circumstances of the colony for which the price was to be na- I mcd (Cheers). That difficult and delicate task ; I have not had time to perform with regard to New Zealand, or even to this Province. And therefore I decline for the present to name a price. But I have proposed a means whereby J time for deliberation would be gained (hear, hear). Let us begin by doing justice (cheers). The settlement of a hard question in political economy will come afterwards. There is no hurry (except indeed for the speculators, whom it will a be satisfaction to" thwart) if we take care that actual wanters of land for their own use get some for nothing before anybody else is served. This is my price for the present (cheers.) I feel sure the plan will work through to a successful issue. I say to j the people — don't buy land scrip ; never mind how cheap it becomes when the success of my remedial plan of justice for the industrious classes shall be generally deemed pro- j bable: never mind, though scrip should.be offered to you at five shillings : don't buy a morsel. All the present selections are illegal, and are liable to be set aside. lam inclined to think (and this is no new opinion, but was formed in England), that actual crown grants in respect of land scrip may turn out to have been unlawfully made ; yes, both to Residents and to Absentees (hear, hear). If so, the whole thing may be overhauled, and all selections of land in virtue of scrip may turn out to be untenable. No doubt, if it should prove so, the General Assembly will do justice to those who have really deserved compensation ; but in the meanwhile, I say to the people, " Don't buy an acre of Compensation Scrip, or Compensation Land. You will be- served, and better served, in another way." (Cheers.) In saying that I do not speak hastily, but most deliberately. The subject has been well considered by me ; and I have formed this plan with a full sense of the responsibility I incur by engaging to carry it into effect ; for let me say for the first time in public, that I am to all intents and purposes a New Zt aland colonist, having finally resolved beyond any possibility of change of mind, that my bones shall be laid in this country. (Cheers), My responsibility is therefore very real. Fully aware of it, I repeat nevertheless, that if you abstain from buying scrip or land, you will be better served in another way. Who will help me to realize the prediction ? (Cheers).

Mr. Fitz Herbert said it would be extremely difficult for any one to follow Mr. Wakefield ia the different arguments brought forward in the very able address, or he should rather say.elaborate essay, which that gentleman had just read to the meeting. He confessed he had not the ability to cope with Mr. Wakefield, and had no intention of attempting it, but it appeared to him the only result of that address would be to lead them into a maze in which they would completely lose their common sense. Of all the sophistical addresses he had ever heard, this beat everything. (Interruption, and cries of turn him out, Mr. F. supposing them applied to him continued) If it was their wish he was ready to retire, he did not address them from any pleasure it gave him, but from a sense of duly. He then complained of the extremely partial conduct of the chairman, in the manner in which he had introduced Mr. Wakefield to the meeting, and said if it was intended on an occasiou like the present to make use of the meeting either for the glorification or condemnation of one mnn, it ought to have come from a different source. (Order.) He (Mr. F.) had not the ability to follow Mr. Wakefield through that tortuous maze, but because be Bald that he was not to be bamboozled, nor^ wquM he have them led like so many sheep, "he would do bis best to substantiate his assertion that that address was an insult to their common sense. The programme of the sports had been arranged for Mr. Wakefield's convenience under nine heads, like so many nine pins. He (Mr. F.) would bowl for the King, though cheap land, which was his King, was Mr. Wakefield's common pawn. He (Mr. F.) bawled out cheap land, that was the front of his offending. If they were all so many of that uneasy class about whom Mr. W. had said so much they might sit down to consider these present and future evils in as comprehensive a manner as possible, but after twelve years' experience did they know nothing of their own wants ; had they been so hug out here and were tbey now to be told by this concentrated essence of the New Zealand Company what they wanted ? If they did not know what they wanted, then were they indeed geese, and he would leave them to say who was the charlatan. He (Mr. F.) believed in the main they were as gifted with common sense as any community. He wished to bs toM what this mysterious sufficient price was, he wanted to have this difficult and delicate question answered in a plain manner. If, when he cried for cheap land he were asked to name his price, he would say ten shillings an acre was better than either one pound or three pounds. He believed the Land Proclamation to be illegal and unconstitutional and advised them not to buy land under it. In a recent conversation with Mr. Wakefield the latter bad told him Mr. Wakej?iet.d rose to protest against his private conversation being repeated at a public meeting. He would not be guilty of the practice himself, and if, after this protest Mr. Fitzherbert went on, it would bo a breach "of the ordinary rules observed in private life which forbad a private conversation to be repeated at a public meeting. Mr. Fitziierbert denied having been guilty of any breach of private confidence. He said if ten shillings an acre was cheaper than a pound, a fortiori it was cheaper than three pounds. But he had heaid it somewhere recently said that the only cheap land in New Zealand was that at three pounds an acre at Canterbury. They were about to enter into the arena of public life, and the sooner they acted up to the functions they had to discharge the better, and he thought a rain ought not to say one thing in private life and another on the platform. After expressing his approval of the auction system, Mr. F. said with reference to the question of an upset price he should observe a little delicacy or they would not value him, but he should consider 2s. 6d. an acre a good upset price. A great deal had been said about compensation, but no man in this settlement had been at greater pains than himself iv laying bare the iniquity and jobbing of the New Zealand Company. He had never received an acre of compensation, he had paid in hard cash for every acre he had, and many a hard bargain he had to drive for it. He had ever firmly and consistently advocated the rights of the real settlers, but he thought with regard to compensation it had had the same effect as the taste of human blood was said to have ou the Lion, when once ho had tasted human blood he always thirsted for it. And the effect of compensation iv reducing the price of land had at least done this good ; it would prevent them from ever recovering their taste for a sufficient price ; they would never rest satisfied until they got cheap land. A3 a private individual compensation was a sore subject to him, he did not get any and no one deserved it more. In awarding compensation, there might be many hardships in detail, but in principle it was right, aud it had had the good effect of giving them a taste for cheap land, He had been much disappointed, he had expected Mr. Wakefield would bave told them what the sufficient price was, but when that gentleman sat down he (Mr. F.) was as wise as ever. But he (Mr. F.) ' would tell them that ss. and 10s. an acre was a very vast improvement over £1 and £3. An attempt had been made to cast a slur on himself and others, and it had been asserted they had joined in the cry of cheap land with a view to the coming elections, but they could refer with confidence to their former opinions on this subject. One thing was clear, Mr. Wakefield had not named a price but esconced himself in the sufficient price. Mr. Fitzherbert concluded by disavowing all intention of bitterness, without however detracting from earnestness in the expression of his opinions. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Ltjdlam thought that every one should state his opinion on this question. In this settlement a uniform price of £\ an acre had been established. At first starting the plan so far was a good plan, but it had been , hampered with ahsenteeism which was an evil, though it was necessary to provide funds on the first formation of the settlement. As soon as the funds were expended they came to a stand-still. No more land had been sold, but an immense quantity had been given away, more than 100,000 acres had been swallowed up, not sold. (Hear.) An ira-_ portant question for them to consider was whether the management of the land should be given to the Provincial Council or to the General Assembly. It wa« impossible for the General Assembly to pass laws which would be I suitable to each Province. Another important 1 reason why this power should be given to the I

Provincial Council was the fad that the General Assembly would not meet every year. If tny law passed by the Provincial Council was unsatisfactory, in twelve months it might be amended, but the General Assembly might not meet once in three years. If the management of the Land Fund was left to the General Assembly, every Province would scramble for the lions's share and the strongest would get the day. The question was, what was to be done, with the Land Fund ? Formerly funds were required lor emigration, in a few years there would be a want, not of population, but of land. The first thing was to provide funds for the purchase of land from the natives ; then there was the debt of the New Zealand Company — but the great object was to get such a price as would enable them to make roads. (Hear.) He, for one would be glad to see a minimum price of 55., and that the land should be sold by public auction. The difficulty of the auction system was the settler might find another person outbid him, but that might be remedied by introducing a clause like that in the Proclamation, let him pay 10s. an acre and at once take possession of the land. He objected to the power given to the Commissioner under the Proclamation to determine the value of land ; it would be impossible to satisfy every one, and he would be open to imputations of all sorts. He differed with Mr. Fitzherbert in considering 2s. 6d. an acre a good upset price, as after paying the New Zealand Company's debt there would be little or nothing left. With respect to compensation, though he had been sneered at and taunted with it, he for one had never claimed it because he believed he never had a conscientious claim, (Cheers) though he had a much better claim than several who had received it. He denounced the whole affair as a rank job, and sincerely hoped all thB proceedings connected with it would one day be made public. (Cheers.) He had never coaxed the working classes or tried to obtain popularity by the bait of compensation to them. He never would have the land given away except for public purposes. (Hear.) The two great interests of the country were the agricultural and the pastoral ; he thought the agricultural intere-t should be protected and the pastoral interest should retire before it. But there was a time when the pastoral interests had suffered severely, and the settlement would not now be in its present prosperous state if the stockholders had not taken on themselves the riskof going with their stock among the savages. (Hear.) It was not true that the stockholders were opposed to the sale of Wairarapa by the natives, he had ouly known of one case of opposition among them. With respect to the price of land he thought the fairest way would be to regulate it by the market price of scrip, so that the public should have the same advantage. The working classes have an enhanced price to pay to the monopolists, to those who buy land with no intention of using it, and he would propose to tax the absentees' land. (Cheers) Mr. Wake-field had referred to Australia ; that country was essentially a country of monopoly — there the great want was the want of water, and those who bought the water holes virtually had the command of the surrounding country ; but the case was different in New Zealand, where there was always plenty of water. To stop monopoly they must lower the price of land, the high price bad been tried, and had proved a complete failure. (Cheers.) Mr. Re vans' wished briefly to offer one o*r two explanations. A reference had been made to the Wairarapa settlers, he begged distinctly to state they desired to be tenants of the Government rather than tenants of the natives. He also thought it unfair that any individual should be brought forward in public, as had been done by Mr. Wakefield, unless he was a consenting party. In listening to Mr. Wakefield's address he fancied himself back again at the Adelphi. Mr. Wakefield's theory was the perfection of order ; but he (M. It.) had seen many circumstances since which induced him to think his system fallacious. He had never overlooked Mr. Wakefield's merits, but he had some mind and dared to exercise it ; he dared to think for himself (hear.) Mr. Wakefield had done a great deal to promote colonization. Formerly emigrant ships were slave ships, and if they were so to Canada, they were a thousand times worse to Australia. Mr. | Wakefield had turned them into passenger | ships and abolished slave ships (hear.) He had made colonization respectable, and equalized the pioportion between the sexes. (Hear.) He (Mr. R.) came out a Wakefieldite, and if he had abandoned those principles he was not ashamed formerly to have held them. The land question was a large subject which he was not then' prepared to discuss, but he thought he could shew why practically ss. an acre was better as a purchasing price than £1. The maories understood the Wakefield system and talked of reserves, and wanted to know why the Government gave them only 2d. per acre and and charged £1 . To the North this' question was still more important, and in discussing the question of a high and low price for land they should remember if they had to buy land from the maories, it would be found the price to be paid them, would bear some proportion to that paid by the settlers to Government. As for bush land, he should be glad if the Government could afford to give it away. (Hear.) They, were hampered by that wretched debt to the Company, whom he admitted had done some good, but he believed that not more than £86,000 was fairly due to them. Whatever was really due should be pa/d, for he believed that Englishmen were not fond of repudiating* (Hear.) He (Mr. R.) believed there would shortly be an immense population here, and he thought a portion of the fund should be devoted to bringing out females so as to equalize the sexes. If only a part of the passage money had been paid by the New Zealand Company, instead of granting free passages, the European population of this settlement would now, be 20,000 instead of 3000 or 4000. With reference to Mr. Wakefield's system he was prepared to support what was right and to oppose what was wrong in it, and to that extent he deviated from that system. (Hear.) Mr. Masters objected to the auction system as injurious, and wished to see the land at a low price, and to be sold in small lots, as otherwise the working man would not receive any benefit from the alteration. Dr. Evans would offer one or two words to the meeting, but must plead the same apology ai his friend Mr, Wakefield, that of indisposition, for not addressing them at length. He might

congratulate them on one tbing as the result of this meeting, that many obscurities bad been cleared away and a great deal of verbal dispola* , tion would be avoided for the future, He thought it bad been clearly demonstrated by Mr. Wakefield, that land might be dear in some situations at the smallest price, and that dear land io others might prove substantially cheap. With regard to compensation he, like others, had just cause to be sore and irritable on that subject. He had preferred a claim for compensation to the committee, which bad not been rejected by them, but it had been set aside. Mr. Wakenold had on the present occasion, and for the first time, proposed a plan of compensation to the industrious working classes which he ventured to say would never be thrown into oblivion. The scheme had taken him by surprise, and be had said to himself it was not dissimilar to the effect produced by the Reform Bill on a member of the House of Commons, who said when he first heard of it; it took his breath away ; so on first hearing Mr. Wakefield's scheme of compensation propounded he must confess it did take his breath away (laughter), but those who knew Mr. Wakefield's industry would feel confident of his success in accomplishing his object. It was .essential that their minds should be disabused of many circumstances, that the calmest judgment should be exercised on this question, which should be regarded not with a view to their immediate advantage, but to the exclusive benefit of the whole community. He entreated them not to allow this question to be used as a stalking horse for popularity by persons who talked about cheap land in general terms. He could not conceive a greater insult to their understandings than this bidding for popularity by a kind of Dutch auction, in which each man tried to outbid his neighbour. (Hear.) One man was for 10s. an acre, another to outbid him was for 55., while a third not to be ou'done would vote for 2s. 6d., and at last some political quack would offer them the land for nothing and a pot of beer into the bargain, (laughter and cheers.) This was not a question for clap trap. He would remind them that the waste lands were their property, they were the public domain, and the question for them to consider was how this property should be most judiciously, prudently, and advantageously administered for the best interests of the colony. They should not suffer it to be made use oF for the purposes of electioneering or political tergiversation, but consider it with a viow to those future millions who ! were to occupy and enrich this glorious country. (Cheers.) It was of the greatest importance to prevent the public from being deceived and cajoled on this question. They might, if they pleased, pass a law to divide the land among themselves, but that was not the way to treat the question. It was necessary that certain objects should be provided for without which the land was not worth having. Suppose', for example, the district of Manawatu was obtained. It would be necessary to complete the road and establish ferries that the settler might put his produce in his waggon and take it to market. The main subject might be fitly reserved for the House of Representatives; they will best fix the price which was not to be disposed of in that way. He would only further observe that the land ought to be sold without any profit, and at the smallest possible cost to the actual settlor, and this could not be done without knowing how much was to be spent on it. As an old settler be had never shrank from expressing his opinions, and he begged them to reserve their opinions on this question, and not to be led away by auy of the mere arts of popularity. (Cheers.) • Mr. Harding said he should be sorry to find the working classes agree to accept Mr". Wakefield's proposition. The first compensation was a fraud, and he thought he knew the working classes better than to suppose they would suffer themselves to be led away by the clap trap of compensation which had been held out to them. The Government offered them cheap land, they could purchase the best land at 10s. an acre, and Mr. Wakefield's offer was- clap trap and nothing more. (Hear.) Mr. Renall in referring to Mr. Fitzherbert's attack on the chairman; explained that Mr. Scott was forced into the -chair against his" inclination and chiefly at the suggestion of Mr. Fitzherbert. A great deal had been said about cheap land, but if it were even sold at 3s. 6d. an acre it would be dear enough before it reached the working classes. He would not touch upon the old sore of compensation further than to remark that after they saw the land owners grab at compensation so eagerly, it was not to,.be wondered at when they set the example,. the working men should be disposed to follow it. (Hear.) After one or two other speakers had addressed the meeting, Mr. Fitzhebbbrt rcse to move that a vote of, thanks be ■ given to their chairman for his able conduct in presiding over the meeting; in doing so he passed some very complimentary remarks upon Mr. Scott's general character which were warmly responded to by the meetings Mr. Scott said, before leaving the chair he was anxious to make few observations. He had been accused, since taking the chair, of behaving, in a partial and improper manner by Mr. Mr. Fitzherbert, , and he consequently felt astonished at that gentleman, after making such an accusation, moving a vote of thanks to him as chairman. He was completely at a loss to understand such a proceeding, and must say he did not feel gratified by any such hypocritical expressions of general esteem ; if he had misconducted himself in that chair, as had been alleged, he merited their censure, and if he had done his duty, merely, he conceived he was not entitled to any thanks, as every man should so act, whatever position he was called upon to fulfil. (Cheers.) , Considerable sensation was produced by these remarks and the , animated manner of., the speaker. Mr. Wakefield offered a few words in explanation, and at, last, moved that Mr. Renall take the chair/upon which Mr. Fitzherbert addressed the meeting, and moved that the thanks of the meeting be given to Mr. Scott for his able conduct in the chair. This was seconded by Mr. Wakefield, and carried bj acclamation. Three hearty cheers were givtih for Mr. Scott and the meeting separated, - ,