NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL SPEECH OF SIR JOHN PAKINGTON, EXPLANATORY OF THE PROPOSED ALTERATION IN THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VIII, Issue 757, 3 November 1852, Page 4

NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL SPEECH OF SIR JOHN PAKINGTON, EXPLANATORY OF THE PROPOSED ALTERATION IN THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

Sir J. Pakington, having presented petitions from persons connected wiih New Zealand, said those petitions were .all of them to the same effect, expressing strongly the desire that this bill should be allowed to pass. The petitioners called attention, some of them to one part, some of them to another part of the bill, hut the general conclusion of the whole was that the bill should pass. The last of those petitions was from Mr. Gibbon Wakefield, the prayer of which was particularly directed to the question whether there should be Provincial Legislatures, or whether there should be a Central Legislature and Legislatures for particular localities. With his usual ability, Mr. Wakefield discussed the subject, and earnestly prayed that the hill as it stood might pass into a law. Before moving that the Speaker do leave the chair on the House going into Committee on the New Zealand Government Bill, he (Sir. J. Pakington) was disposed to hope that he would save time, which he held extremely valuable in this case, if he entered into some short explanation of the changes which it was his intention to propose in this bill. Since the second reading of the bill he had received suggestions from seveial quarters, but principally from seme members of that House, of the highest eminence and distinction, gentlemen with whom he had no political connexion, and whose courtesy and kindness of feeling in offering these suggestions and the manner in which they had done so he would really be wanting in justice to his own feelings as well as to the manner in which, as he had said, those suggestions had been tendered, if he did not take that opportunity of acknowledging. From those gentlemen he had received suggestions entitled to the greatest weight, not only as coming from them, bat entitled to the greatest weigl-t from their intrinsic value, offered in a spirit entirely opart from party feeling, and intended to put ibis bill in such a shape as should be most effectual for its objects. He had staled before that his whole object in this bill was to give the inhabitants of New Zealand the best government, and the best government for themselves, consistently wiih considerations which must be kept in view. The suggestions to which he had alluded related principally to two points. He would, with the permission of the House, direct its attention to them, with reference especially to the very difficult question, as he had always thought it, of what was the best mode of providing governments for the different provincial districts of those colonies. He had to choose out of three alternatives, namely, the bill as he had ventured to submit it to the House ; next, a suggestion, coming from a quarter to which he was bound to pay the greatest respect, that, instead of taking the bill as it stood, and giving Provincial Legislatures, he should rather follow the precedent of the Australian Government Act of 1842, and give distinct municipalities, that was to say, municipal bodies with enabling clauses to legislate on certain subjects, and that they should be restricted from legislating on all subjects beyond those specified. The third suggestion he had received was that, instead of putting into the bill either Provincial Legislatures or Provincial municipalities, it should be left to the Central Legislature, when formed, to provide for the municipal government of these separate districts in such manner as they might think best. Those were the three alternatives he had to consider. He thought the House would see that between the bill as it stood and the second of these alternatives, the distinction was really rather one of name than of fact. As he had drawn the bill and announced when he first moved it, his intention was that those Provincial Legislatures should in fact be municipal. As he had drawn the bill, those local bodies were to legislate on all matters of interest to the locality, being restricted from legislating on certain specified subjects, those specified subjects embracing the main objects of what he might call a colonial or imperial legislature. It was a question whether they should legislate on all except certa'n important restricted subjects or should legislate on certain specified subjects, those being very large and comprehensive. After the fullest consideration, he had come to the conclusion that, looking to the nature of the restrictions on those bodies, they could hardly be regarded as colonial Legislatures ; and minor objects of interest to a colony might be touched witboul entering on the specified subjects. He had, on that ground, ventured to prefer the course he now took. To the other course, which the bon. baronet opposite (Sir W. Molesworth,) was going to propose, namely, that the House having nothing to do in this bill with provincial legislation, the provincial general Legislature should settle what they

were to have, — there were, lie thought, obvious objections. First, there was a loss of time. In the next place, looking to all precedent and experience, the House would find that colonial Legislatures had not shown themselves disposed to part with powers once entrusted to thorn in favor of anything like rrinor districts. He rather thought he might adduce Australia as an instance, but the case had been so strongly put by Mr. Wakefield that he hoped the House would permit him to refer to an extract, in which Mr. Wakefield said that this was a case " where prevention was more easy than cure, because if once a provincial government were established, these who composed it were little disposed to diminish their authority." He (Sir J. Pakington) should not trouble the House wi'h more extracts. Mr. Wakefkhi dwelt at considerable length on the subject, and that was the view taken by him. II the Housp, as it appears to he, were disposed to give the different localities power of independent government for their own interests, it would be better to lay down in this act broadly and distinctly the basis on which those governments were all to be formed, than to leave those localities to the uncertain result of the view which the central legislature might take of the matter whe,n they came to deliberate on the powers they should | intrust to- the local legislatures. He would now advert to a fourth plan recommended by the ri^ht hon. member for the University of Oxford, who, j if he rightly followed the right hon. gentleman in a former debate on this subject, expressed great objection to the conrse he (Sir J. Pakiogton) had taken of establishing asupreraelegislature. Knowing the weight of the right hon. gentleman's authority, he should say, with great respect, that he could not agree with him in his view. With reference to the loral legislature, the right hon. gentleman wished that they sboulJ have no concurrent power, that their powers should be defined, that they should act, so far as those powers went, in a perfectly independent manner, and that the central legislature should act on equally broad and defined independent powers. If that plan were | adopted it would lead to very great confusion. It would practically be found extremely difficult to define the boundary between the powers of the Provincial and the Central Legislatures. He could not yield to the right bon. gentleman's objection to the concurrent power. It not was so much a concurring as an over-riding power which would be vested in the Central Legislature ; and he could not but think that for the future welfare of those colonies there should be oue supreme Legislature, superior to those minor bodies, which were employed and dealt only with tile interests of their own localities, subject to the paramount authority of the Central Legislature. Having had those suggestions thrown out, to which from the manner in which they were given, and the quarter from which they were offered, he repeated that he felt bound to give every attention, and having unusual opportunities of consulting those connected with the colony, having opportunities of consulting parties directly conuected with Nelson, Wellington, Otago, and Canterbury, namely, four out of six localities, — be thought, with this choice before him, his best course was to avail himself of the period intervening between the time when these suggestions were offered and the piesent moment, to take the opinion of those gentlemen possessing great local knowledge, and taking a deep interest in the welfare of the colony. He had consulted, then, with those interested in the colony, both in London and in the country, and he was now enabled to state that which was proved by the petitions he had presented. He was bound to say that those who were interested in the colony unanimously desired that he should proceed with the bill as it stood, lather than that he should take either of the two alternatives of granting only municipalities, or of empowering only a Centra! Legislature to prescribe what those governments should be. Anxious to meet suggestions offered with much weight from different ! quarters in that house, he submitted to the gentlemen so interested in the colony whether, if he retained the bill essentially as it was, but made certain important alterations, they would accept those alterations ? The answer he received was, that they not only approved of the alterations, but gratefully accepted them. Anxious, then, to meet the suggestions made, and anxious to meet the views of the colonists, he determined to make a very important alteration with respect to those localities. The alteration was that, instead of the superintendents being nominated by the governor of the colony, they should be elected by the same constituencies as elected the Legislatures. He had not made ithis alteration without very serious consideration. He had had to consider how far it was consistent with the BritUh constitution that he should venture to enact an elective Executive. The noble lord whom he had succeeded in the office he now held, with reference to this very bill, laid down broadly — and he (Sir J. Pakiugton) begged to say be agreed with the noble lord, — that anything like an elective Executive was unknown to the British constitution. Agreeing in that proposition, he (Sir J. Pakington) would be no party to any measure making an Executive elective. But he looked upon these different districts in New Zealand not as separate colonies, but as so many municipalities of one colony, In whatever ratio they were distinct colonies, in that ratio he should be opposed to the creation of an elective Executive ; but, in whatever ratio they were municipalities, then, in that ratio the proposition came within the spirit and practice of the British constitution in making the heads of those municipalities elective. Looking at the wording of the bill, — knowing what were his own intentions in introducing it, — believing, moreover, that these districts partook so largely of the nature of municipalities, and being conscious that he intended they should have that character, be thought he was not open to the charge of departing from the spirit of the British constitution in proposing that these superintendents should not be nominated, but elective, and that by the same constituencies who were to elect the provincial Councils. (Hear, bear.) It was also his intention to strike out of the civil list the provision of salaries of £500 for each of these superintendents, leaving it entirely to the option and discretion of each provincial Legislature whether they would or not v,ote a salary for these officers. (Hear.'hear.) This was an important alteration with reference to the government of these localities which it was bis indention to make. The next clause .in the bill to which he would refer was oue on which, there had already been more discussion than he had expected, and he hoped what he was about to say would not lead to any further discussion on

the subject ; he alluded to the clause relating (o the rights of tbe New Zealand Company. The right hou. gentleman, the member Jor the University of Oxford, and the right hou. baronet (Sir Ja,i es Graham) had adverted to that clause. He had endeavoured to take a ground upon this subject to which he thought the House could no! make any fair exception. At least, be, bail acted upcn the spirit of strict justice, and bad taken a. ground from he roust say he could not depart — a ground beyond which he did not think it bis duty to go, but less than which he was .dot justified iv taking, namely, that whatever might betbe equitable claim of the company under the act ofl£47 r he was bound to see secured to them by this bill.* The bill, as was well known, was not intended, originally, to apply to the. New Zealand Company; it was intended to confer the blessing and advantage of self-government on New Zealand ; but still be thought it a paramount duty on his part to take care that the effect of the bill should not be to leave the New Zealand Company in a worse condition than that in which he found it. The only question, then, was ; how best to 'carry oat that principle. He thought the house would go with him one s'.ep further, and that they would admit, looking at the act of 1847. that he had' no right to consider whether tbe bargain between the | New Zealand Company was a good or a bad bargain. It was a bygone transaction. An Act of Parliament had settled it. That act was confirmed and explained by the conespondence which had passed between Lord Grey and the Company. i A question had been raised whether Lord Grey was justified in taking upon himself to put the construction he had done on the act of 1847. fl ; ith that he (Sir John Pdkington) lad nothing to do : be felt himself bound Ly he contract as it stood. The only difference I etween the act of 1847 and the present bill was this : — The act of 1847 prescribed that the jroduceof every townland sold in New Zealand should be divided in>o three portions ; and that one portion should be devoted to emigration, anoher portion to surveys, and the balancp, wh.tever it might be, should go to the New ZeaLnd Company. The fault of the act was that while the produce of the sales were so divided, it said noihi g about tLe proportions. By analogy, however, with what had occurred in Australia, it had been held and argued that half of the money should he devoted to emigration. The act, however, did not so state, and Lord Grey 'bought that one- fourth would be a fair proI or ion to be given to the New Zealand Company. Now, assuming the price at£l, and 10s, thereof to be the proportion for emigiation, there would then remain the surveys to be defrayed, and then the balance for the Company. It was a matter of doubt whether tbe surveys would require more thai) ss. in the pound or not. If it did, then it was questionable whether the balance would meet the equitable rights of the Company. He would not, however, enter into the question whether Lord Grey was justified or not in taking upon himself to construe the act of Parliament as be had done; but this he thought, that the noble Lord had taken a ve»y convenient course, and a very just and very mo rerate course; and, looking at the whole transaction, and at the construction which Lord Grey had put upon the act oi 1847, he would ask the House, and he did so with some degree of confidence, whether he was doing morn than justice is proposing to give to the New Zealand Company one-fourth of the produce of the sales of land iv that colony. In .the interviews which he had had with persons connected with that Company, they had said there were many districts in which the land would sell for more than £1 an acre, and they asked why the sura of ss. only should be paid to the Company. But, on the other hand, it was shown that in some districts the land would sell for less than a pound ; theiefore it was asked why give tbe Company so much as ss. ? His answer to these objections was, that they should set one case against the other. On the whole, be thought the fairest plan would be to abandon the clause which gave ss. in the pound to the New Zealand Company, and to enact that tbe Company should receive one-fourth in every case. For himself* he would say that he should have no objection to adopt the ss. clause. But he had now explained what his wish and object was, namely, to do the Company justice — not more. Considering that the subject was incidentally introduced into the bill, he hopi d the house would not allow it to be made a roarer of protracted discussion, but that the clause wou'd be allowed to pass either in one or tbe other s 1 ape, the Company, on their part, he believed, being quite disposed in either case to be satisfied. There was only one other poiot to which he wished to advert. Strong feelings of approbation h..d been expressed by petitions and otherwise cf the part of the bill which placed the lands of the colony at tbe disposal of the Legislature. (Hear, hear.) Upon that subject perhaps he might be allowed to add one word more. In these days it was impossible to say in what colony those extraordinary discoveries of gold might not take place. He knew that in New Zealand expectations were strong among tbe populace that gold might be discovered ? he therefore wished to say, in addition to the placing of the lapd of New Zealand at the disposal of the colonial Legislature that in the event of any gold mineral discovery in that colony, he should be prepared to advise the Crown to place the who'e of tbe discovery at tbe disposal of the Jocal Legislature. (Hear, hear.) He hoped he should not be considered as travelling unduly beyond the object on which he was now addressing the Hojase if he stated that by the mail which left this country yesterday, he had announced to the Australiau Governments, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that it was the intention of this Government to place unrestrictedly at their disposal all the revenues which might be derived from any gold discovery in those colonies. He had now concluded the observations which he had to make as to the alterations he intended to propose in committee. He had done so for the sake of saving time, and in the hope that, in committee, he should experience a continuance of that forbearance from all sides of the House which was so desirable when deliberating on a measure intended to promote the welfare of an important and rising colony ; and that they would now merge all differences of a minor^ nature in order to go into that committee as- speedily as possible. . ' *