HOUSE OF COMMONS. NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL, MAY 21. (Concluded from our last.)

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VIII, Issue 754, 23 October 1852, Page 4

HOUSE OF COMMONS. NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL, MAY 21. (Concluded from our last.)

Sir J. Fakington bad listened with great pleasure to the very able speech of the right hon gentleman, in many of whose principles he concurred. But when the right hon. gentleman argued, that the manner in which the very early settlements of oar American colonies were formed ought to be the model of our colonization at present, he could not concur with him, because he had lost sight of the mode in which they were formed, and had forgotten what a small and insignificant portion of our empire our colonies were. (Hear.) He did not think the right hon. gentleman bore in mind the effect which must be produced upon such questions by the enormous extent of our colonies over all parts of the world, by the effect which this, of course, had upon our relations with foreign countries, and the extent to which those relations had affected the mode in which we must deal with our colonies. Neither bad the right bon. gentleman remembered our extended commerce Pin consequence, nor that one-half of these colonies had been founded by the outpourings of our convict population. He did not advert to these topics with the intention of dwelling upon them at any length ; for, as they had bsen touched by the right hon. gentleman, they rather formed an essay on our colonial system than referred to tn.e question immediately before the House ; namely^, the bill now under consideration. The objections which had been made to this bill resolved themselves, he thought, into two classes. First, it had been objected, that at this period of the session the House ought not to think of proceeding at all with this measure ; and then, again, serious objection was taken to the provisions of the measure as they stood. Now, he (Sir J. fakington) had never concealed from himself or from this House the difficulty of an attempt to deal. with a question of this interest and of this magnitude, commenced not only at a very late period of the session, but at a very late period of a session under such peculiar circumstances as the present. (Hear.) But he had put it to the House distinctly, in moving this bill, whether or not the circumstances in which New Zealand was placed were such as to render it incumbent upon the Parliament to make an effort to legislate upon the subject in the present session (hear, hear) ; and whether or not, considering these circumstances, there was not established a necessity for legislation which the Hpuse were bound to attempt to meet? (Hear, hear.) The general sense

of the House on all sides upon that occasion seemed to be that it was a subject with which the Government bought to deal, and the principles which he explained .were tuch that the House ap. peared willing to enter upon them. (Hear.) As be had then explained his intentions, so it was the bill now stood ; he bad made no alteration whatever in its priaciple/ The question now was, whether there was any reason why the House should be deterred; by the lateness of the session, from making this an act of Parliament ? His own opinion was a strong one that they ought yet to proceed (hear ); subject to the pleasure of -the House be should endeavour to carry out that opinion ; and he saw no reason why they should not be successful, providing they approached the measure in a spirit indicated by the hon. member for Malton (Mr; J. E, Denison) and the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), namely, not to look at individual opinions, but to see whether the general principles of this bill were not sound and safe— whether it would not confer upon this colony a great blessing for which they were very anxious"; and, above all, to look to that which no one speaker had mentioned, excepting only the right hon. gentleman who had preceded him, namely, that be bad introduced into this bill large powers for the new Legislature, when constituted, to alter and remould their institutions in such manner as their own experience might prove to be the best. (Hear, hear.) He must say tbat when hon. members had urged either that- this bill ought not to be dealt with now, or tbat the arrangements contemplated were in themselves objectionable, be thought they had not sufficiently regarded the peculiarity of New Zealand in many respects. Hon. gentlemen forgot that with regard to New Zealand we had opportunities of getting to know the opinions of the inhabitants belter than those of any other of our colonies. There was in this country, the New Zealand Company, the Canterbury Association, and the Otago Association, connected with which were a large number of persons deeply interested in the welfare of the colony. (Hear.) There were also in England at this time very many gentlemen, residents in New Zealand, deeply interested, too, in the prosperity of the colony, and he believed tbat for every one of those persons he was entitled to say they were extremely. anxious for immediate legislation (bear, hear), and that, generally speaking, they approved of the provisions of the bill he bad ventured to introduce. (Hear, bear.) The right hon. baronet the member for .Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth) had stated that this bill was opposed to the feelings of the inhabitants ; but the fact was, that they had expressed no dissent, and he did not believe they were inclined to express dissent. It was perfectly true that meetings were held in opposition, but the parties who had promoted those meetings were now in England, and were among those who were urging them to legislate. There was no ground whatever to suppose tbat the provisions of this bill would be unacceptable even to the very gentlemen to whom the bon. baronet had adverted. The hon. baronet had objected very much to the division of the country into provinces, and to the provincial councils { he had talked of them as being little miniature colonies in themselves, but in the next sentence he bad proceeded to say tbat their acts would be null and void, and that they would be subjected to the control of the Legislature, thus complaining, in fact, tbat they were not sufficiently independent. This objection seemed, to say the least of it, a very inconsistent one. Then the hon, baronet adverted to New Plymouth in terms of ridicule, asking why it was to be created a distinct province with a Legislature of its own. He (Sir J. Pakington) must say that he heard with great surprise the extent to which the hon, baronet had turned the whole subject into ridicule. He always listened, not only with attention but with respect, to whatever fell from the hon. baronet on colonial subjects, because he knew that no man in that House had paid more attention to those subjects, or understood them better (hear, hear) : and he was therefore .surprised to find bi ra losing sight of the respect due to those colonies, their claims to popular institutions, and losing sight, also, of the manner in which New Zealand had been colonized. These colonies had not been founded round a nucleus of convicts (hear) ; be was sure the hon. baronet would admit that they were founded by the most respectable classes, by men of property and of education, and by men accustomed to the free institutionsof this country ; and that was the consideration which bore immediately on the objection which the hon. member bad urged. " Why," said the hon. baronet, "are you going to have all this cumbrous machinery ; why divide a small population of 26,000 persons into communities ?" But the House was bound to consider of whom lbese communities consisted (hear ) ; they were bound to consider tbat they were composed of men of education, men of property, men who desired naturally in going out there to enjoy still the institutions of this country ; and they would also bear in mind the advanced state of civilization among the native tribes. (Hear.) They had not only to deal with these 26,000 Europeans, but (and it was a thing for which we ought to be thankful) to deal also with i native population advanced in civilization, adranced in Christianity, and rapidly taking their places side by side with our European emigrants, md as desirous as they were for the enjoyment )f free institutions. (Hear, hear.) The hon.* jaronet the member for Southwark, as well as ■he right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford, had dwelt upon the objections which might be raised to the clause introduced in he bill with regard to the New Zealand Com>an'y. Now, he bad introduced that clause soley upon the principle of justice. He thought he ihould lay this bill open to very grave and serious ibjection if he should enable the New Zealand Company to say tbat, in making the attempt to lestow free institutions upon ■ the colony, he hereby put them into a worse position than they fere in before. (Hear.) He could not help toping, too, that he had been successful in bis enleavour to do justice, inasmuch as be was accused o-night of having done a great deal too much or the company, while the New Zealand Comiany had, done him the honour to pay him everal visiti complaining that he had noc done nough for them. (" Hear, bear," and a laugh.) le hoped, therefore, he had arrived at a , happy aediuro between the two parties. He did not bink that the position in which the company tood as regarded the Government was exactly bat which the right boo. gentleman (Mr. Glad-

a stone) supposed, for he believed he was right in c saying that the claims of the New Zealand Com5 pany did not turn exclusively upon that act of . Parliament passed in 1847 to which the right 5 hon. gentleman referred, but, subsequently to b that act, an arrangement was made, and now . stood in writing between the Government of this country ana the Company, in virtue of which » arrangement they were to receive one- fourth part , ,of theland. The right hon. gentleman also comi plained very much of the hardship of the colo- ) nists having their local acts hanging over their » heads for, two years before they knew whether t they would be dissented from by. the Imperial GoI vernnoent.. But he afterwards admitted that he • (Sir J. Fakington) bad intimated his intention r practically to dispense with that power. Whether t rightly- or wrongly, he did think it was advisable j that the power-should be reserved to the Governor c -to send -home for consent such acts as he might . be induced to tbink so much out of the ordinary J, course as to require it ; but his (Sir J. Paking- . too's) intention was that the Governor should act j under instructions from home ; but, as 'a rule, all i local acts, should be disposed of at once. (Hear, s hear.) The right hon. gentleman likewise ob- ,. jected that there should not only be a Central . -Legislature and local Legislature, but the lower t grade of municipal institutions. Now, we in this i country valued our municipal institutions very > highly, and it should be remembered that the bill t merely reserved to the governing .power in New s I New Zealand the right and authority which at present existed to call municipal institutions into existence as necessity might require; and the right hon. gentleman would admit that, although municipal institutions might be Superfluous now, in subordination to the local Legislatures, the day might soon come when, by the spread of population, new towns and villages would spring up in the neighbourhood of the existing settlements which would be glad to avail themselves of municipal institutions. (Hear, bear.) He would not detain the House further at that late hour, except to say a few words with reference to the important question as to the policy of making the Legislative Council elective or not. Now, upon this point he must say he differed widely both from the right bon. gentleman and the hon. baronet the member for Southwark. When he moved for leave to bring in the bill he urged a fact which could not be contravened" — that there we had no precedent for an elective Upper House. (Hear, bear.) The right bon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford said he wished to draw a precedent from the United States of America. His. (Sir J. Pakington's) answer to that was, that he would rather draw a precedent from Great Britain (bear), and he was disposed to think that, however lightly the right hon. gentleman might treat the idea/ it was a general feeling in our colonies. No complaints existed with respect to. a nominee Upper Chamber in any of our existing colonies. (Hear, bear.) It would be remembered that the proposal to give an elective Upper Chamber to the Cape of Good Hope excited very strong feelings of alarm in that colony ; that it was anything but a popular proposal even now ; and his (Sir J. Pakington's belief was that Parliament would yet be obliged to change it, in deference to the wishes of the colonists. (Hear, hear.) It was a well known fact that where there were two elective chambers, great difficulty was felt as to the mode of election which would give to the Legislature the full value derived from the check of an Upper Chamber. (Hear, bear.) Nothing, he believed, was more difficult than to find such a mode of election. Looking, therefore, to the extent to which it was desirable lo make the colonies a reflection of the constitution of the mother country : looking to the necessity of an Upper Chamber as a check upon the Lower ; looking, moreover, beyond that to tbe fact that, as he had said before, we had no precedent for an elective Upper Chamber, that the nominee chambers worked well in our colonies ; that the colonists had no desire to change them, and that tbe honour of a seat in them was much coveted by men of character and station in the colonies,— looking to all these considerations, he must say that his .feeling was a strong one in .preferring a nominee to an elective Upper Chamber. He hoped, therefore, that this point would not be a serious impediment to tbe progress of the bill. (Hear.) He did not understand that any serious opposition was intended to be offered to the second reading of the bill. (Hear) When this bill went into committee, therefore, he hoped the House* would deliberately and carefully address itself to .the question as to whether the bill should be met in a spirit of concession and comparison— whether looking to the large powers of alteration by the local authorities which it con-tained-r-tbe bill should not be allowed to pass at once, and thereby'put an end to the anxiety which prevailed in New Zealand, by giving them the advantage they had long prayed for, and which they were now urging as strongly as ever, or whether tbe bill should be met in a spirit by which every clause would be disputed, every nice point made the subject of long debate and division (hear, hear.) If they adopted the latter course, he .confessed be .should -be obliged to resort to the alternative oi passing a suspending act, because he could not allow the act of 1846 to be revived. (Hear, hear.) He hoped, better things however, He trusted that the committee would proceed to discuss the bill with a spirit that would enable them to pass the bill in the present session. (Hear.) Sir J. Graham would not oppose the second reading of tbe bill, and was ready to go into committee for the discussion of its provisions with * view of passing it this session. He, however, concurred .with Mr. Gladstone in regarding thai part of the. bill .relating to the New Zealand Compauy as of immense importance. Sir James offered sojne comments upon -the arrangement between the Government and tbe Company, respecting .which, ' ~ - - ' - Mr. Mangles gave explanations on behalf of the Company. r ' - ' . Mr. Walter, inclusion .to" m-iemark'o'f Sir J. Pakington, showed, the , essential distinction be-; tween an Upper, Chamber' in the United, States and -in this country. ' v " : '•"" After ».few observations from Mr/Anstey, the bill was read a second time. The otberbusjness having been disposed of, tbcHonse adjourned at half-past one o'clock, until Monday. . i >