LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 624, 26 July 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday", July 22, 1851. The Council met at the usual hour. After prayers Mr. Cutfield presented a petition from J. Brown of Taranaki, praying the removal of three natives from his estate. The Lieutenant Governor hoped that the report of the sub-committee on the New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill, which was nearly complete, would be ready to be laid before the Council to-morrow.

Sir George Grey said he would take that opportunity of making a few observations on two subjects of importance. The first was that it was believed in other colonies that he would make some regulations prohibiting the exportation of flour from the Colony, and he had received a communication from the Lieutenant Governor of New Ulster with reference to this subject. But the Lieutenant Governor was not aware, at the time he made the communication, that it was in contemplation to remove the duty from flour and bread stuffs imported into New Zealand, and that having been done by the Council, he (Sir George) did not propose to take any other steps in reference to the subject. His Excellency then stated he had yesterday received a Despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies dated 19th February, 1851, an extract from which he laid on the table and staled its purport to the Council (the extract was published in our last number). Sir George said the Council would’perceive they had, in passing the Provincial Councils Bill,’ done what he°(Sir George) had by this despatch been recommended to do. Her Majesty’s Government had entered into his views with regard to the subdivision of the Colony into fresh and in order to carry out those views it would be necessary to alter the Constitution of 1846 that be might be empowered to constitute those Provinces. The despatch, an extract from which he had laid before them, was in answer to one written by him on the subject of the resignation of their seats by various members of the Provincial Council, 20th September, 1800, and in October he had transmitted to the Secretary for the Colonies a draft of the Provincial Councils Bill. The moment the Charter was received, no delay should exist in making the necessary arrangements. He would add that the form of Constitution which it was proposed by the British Government to introduce would consist of two Chambers, both of which would be elective, but he could not state the nature of the qualifications or the franchise.

On the motion of Capt. Smith, the extract from Lord Grey s despatch was ordered to be printed. estimates. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, the Appropriation Ordinance was read a second time. lhe Council then went into committee on this bill.

Mr. Cautley objected chat this bill provided for the appropriation of the revenue of the year 1852, and proposed to limit its operation either to the sth April or Ist July, 1852, so as to ensure the assembling of the Provincial Council within the next twelve months. Sir George Grey thought there were considerable objections to the proposal of the hon member. This bill provided for the expenses of Government to the end of the year 1859 According to the Colonial Instructions it was his duty immediately to send home a statement on which Parliament can act; if nnv larliamentaiy aid was to be obtained for the Colony, which of course he was anxious to secure, it was necessary, in point of fact, to be able to made a precise statement of the probable expenditure for the ensuingyear. The Charter empowered him to constitute new Provinces, but in addition there would be the whole duty O f dividing these Provinces into electoral Districts, and as there would be many persons in each province to be consulted he was desirous that these arrangements should not be made hurriedly; he was not therefore prepared to say that the whole system could come into operation in twelve months. If the law they had passed were to come into operation three months after its passing, there would be great danger in adopting the pro! posal; he should therefore for every reason desire to see the bill remain as it is. h" would however, assure the Council that no “meni eloStin ~y

<hi“ xptaX' XPreSSeJ him “ lf Ba,isM wl ‘«* on the item RnL P ? P J a ° U agreed l0 ’ and tion nf M soads5 oads b emg proposed, on the moMr. Cautley the committee adjourned whethe! t 0 inqUiry fr ° m Mr ’ Caut!e y» '™ l ‘ l be a »ep. rXv f he ? eW Charter ’ he could only give } general answer to this question. The

Despatch proceeded on the Sh « there would be only f our p. Position ,i wanklreat with to create. The Jeepateh inli general powers would be confer e , th < lor this purpose. retl Upon Several notices of motion WerP the Council then adjourned. 81VeD

Wednesday, J Uly ?3 NEW ZEALAND company’s LAND cr His Excellency the Lieutenant B| H pursuant to notice, brought up the » °% subcommittee on the New Zealand Claimants Bill and explained tha*°’ had only been completed at a it'* previous evening. The report panied by the evidence taken bv t mittee, and the propositions formii .i * of the report. The committee subject their careful, anxious, and ] consideration and, with one excenf 11 unanimous on the conclusions at had arrived. The report, which was of con M length, was read by Mr. Bell. 81 Ms Sir George Grey understood the • object of the committee was to justice was done to the land pur > I here were two parties to the contr was the individual who has the other the person who has to pay i t j l ' report he understood it was recommend public should pay these claims, and theC« cil should understand this before they adj The Lieutenant Governor said ifthe re.„ were printed, particular expressions mioS altered without altering the spirit of °t e ' port. The committee wished tbatsubsJd justice should be done to the land purchase! Captain Smith moved the Council sM go into committee on the Land Claimants® lhe Colonial Secretary of New Mud® thought it would be desirable, before tbeyiceeded with the bill, to know whetherih Council would adopt the report. Mr. Cautley said he had objected in cos. mittee to the report, but any further objeciia on his part would be useless now, after eis out of a committee of nine members ® adopted the report. He confessed the douba he had at first entertained were changed kb certainty, and he had stated his objections’!! the committee as fully in detail as be cooß He would therefore withdraw his amendms; bnt he was of opinion the report gave eve; thing to the land owners,and would carryes to the fullest extent the arrangements of th New Zealand Company, The Colonial Secretary of New Munsia said the members of the Sub-Commite formed the majority of the Council, sa although, adopting Mr. Canning’s qaotaM on afamous occasion, theyhad a giant’s strenji they would not use it as giants, but wouH wish to give those members in the minoritj time to consider the repoit, and state the: objections. This would occasion a delay«!

a few days in the progress of the bill. Sir George Grey thought it would bebetta to adjourn the present discussion, and M Friday to move the adoption of the report He had by the last mail received a despatch dated February, 1851, bearing on this question, in which he was told in a few words,is reference to the instructions he had given fw the purchase of the Rangilikei district, tbsl the Secretary of State had no doubt they were judicious, but the means were unavailable the purpose, and recommended that the funds should be provided out of tae general resources nf fLn rni J omniinlc 111 fjtl .x.v vuiuuj, me uuspavCu amnunis to instructions to pay a certain proportional lhe general revenue of the colony for chase of lands, and these were to be soil partly to pay the debt due to the New Zealsii Company, so that the effect of advancing nnt nf VUlUIJiai ICVUIIUU LUI inv - of land would be to a certain extent to advantf money to the New Zealand Company. was another point of view which, looking lo the present state of the case, rendered W' rable the adoption of some measure by the whole question would be brought t» ! close. They were told by an bon. that the committee had a giant’s slreng l l but that they would not use it like giants- 83 he (Sir George) was not a giant and was Bll acquainted with the manner in which gi 3ll use their strength, he could not say how In would act, but he supposed giants, h&8 °', e j people, would use their strength for out their own views, and probably the c° mittee would do the same. If tße re P or ' the greater part of it, became law ( completely settle the question as regar e purchasers, but there would still , reDlB ' a jjt New Zealand Company to deal witu» greatly depended on the Council whether _ would, by granting him the necessary authorise some arrangement between t 1 lonial and the Home Government by the claims of the Company might be sa On hearing the report read, be «eA . c , way in which the question could no i torily settled would be by a re # u a I

■ which only one half or one third the purchase money of land should be paid in scrip and the rest in cash. He thought some plan might "g be arrived at by which the whole question SI- could be settled ; the measure as it had come up from the committee was good as far as it HI went, but was imperfect, as it did not provide for the settlement of the whole question. He Would see if, on Friday, any plan could be gK submitted to the Council by which the objects he had alluded to might be attained. B The Committee then adjourned to Friday, S when it was intended to move the adoption of 2® the Report. ■ The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand moved for the following returns, — Return shewing the quantity of Land cultivated by, and the number of Stock belonging to Europeans at the Principal Settlements in meht New Zealand at the termination of the year K 1850.

A complete Statement of the Revenue and Expenditure of New Zealand during the years 1848, 9, and 50. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster deferred to Friday to move the adoption of an address to the Crown on the subject of a uniform system of disposing of the waste lands. ESTIMATES. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, Council went into Committee on Appropriation Ordinance. In reply to Mr. Cautley, the Lieutenant Governor gave some explanations of the expenses of Lieutenant Governor’s Establishment. In the survey department Sir George Grey recommended an alteration by which the surveyor’s salary would be made £3OO, on his relinquishing forage money and receiving in addition £2O allowance for a horse. The surveyor was an old servant of the public, and other surveyors employed were getting £3OO a year.

Mr. Cautley regretted to see so large a sum placed on the Estimates for the Commissioner of Crown Lands, whose salary was equal to that of the Colonia] Secretary, an officer next in responsibility to the Governor. So large a salary fixed as a precedent a high scale of remuneration to the Commissioners which he thought was objectionable.

Sir George Grey conceived no analogy could be drawn between the Commissioners of Crown lands in this colony and those of the Australian colonies. In one respect the estimates were very unsatisfactory as they did not adequately provide for the remuneration of the superior officers of the Government, but he hoped there would be no difficulty in a short time in making such arrangements. Of such responsibility were the duties which the Commissioners would have to discharge that perhaps the Council would hardly believe that the first time he (Sir George) was appointed Governor he also held the appointment of resident Commissioner of lands, so important was the office considered. The Commissioners were charged with the whole land department. In the other Province there was a very large survey department, and the chief surveyor, who received nearly £7OO a year, discharged most of these duties. It was due to the officers holding these offices to state they expressed their wish that the salaries should not be so high, but as it was his duty to fix the duties of their office, so the responsibility of fixing the amount of their salaries rested with him also, but he had 'given way on one point, and had not added an allowance for a horse from their unwillingness to press upon the public.

On the estimates for the post office being proposed

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster referred to a strong resolution passed by the Provincial Council, recording their wish that the chief officer in this department at Wellington should be placed in a less anomalous positinn • of nmcont L» j • y ajv »> vativu UIC VICI ft. 1U the post office while, in fact, he was to all intents and purposes Postmaster General of the Province, the accounts from the other settlements in this Province passing through his hands, he would therefore move an alteration in the wording of the estimates to that effect. Sir George Grey said that the Postmaster General at the North is the Collector of Customs ; the simple effect of such a resolution Would be to deprive the present officer of his place. In reply to an observation of the Colonial Secretary Sir George Grey considered the practice to e inconvenient of the Council wandering tom their specific duties. The committee were at present engaged in th? estimates not m promoting, officer?; > j u le Secretary, was still of opinion wording of the estimates should be al- ; the present clerk had always been described as acting postmaster,. th leutenant Governor explained that e post office had been under the former Colieclor Customs ; when the present Collector la een appointed, he had not officially been B Ppomted head of the post office.

Sir George Grey would be sorry to see the Council do what was irregular, as he was himself a great lover of regularity. If it were attempted by indirect means to force him to make an appointment, he should be obliged to resist it. He had no objection to a mere alteration of words if it was intended he should not be obliged to confer the office on a particular individual, but if such a course were contemplated he should then consider what, under the powers conferred on him by the Charter, he should have to do.

On the item of Extras in the Post office DepartmentSir George Grey explained the additions were made at the recommendation of the chief clerk, who was a most zealous public officer ; he had adopted his recommendation, and he thought the Council might do so also. After some further discussion on the Colonial Secretary’s amendment, Sir George Grey said he thought the whole subject misunderstood ; the questions related to the whole of New Zealand, and the simple effect of the amendment would be to prevent any general arrangements for the Post office of this Colony from being carried out. The real cause of delay arose from bis still being in correspondence with the Home Government on this subject, and until some plan was well devised for the whole Colony, it was not his intention to do any thing. He considered this to be a general question affecting the whole community and should be sorry to see it unadvisedly interfeted with. In the Customs an objection was made by Mr. Cautley to the increased estimate for extra tide waiters, and that some of the subordinate officers received higher salaries than the sub-collectors at the other settlements. The Collector of Customs explained that the collection of the Customs at this port entirely depended on the landing waiter, who did more than the Sub-Collector of any other settlement in the Province. Sir George Grey conceived the discussion arose through a mistake of names. In a large establishment a subordinate officer often received a larger salary than the chief of these distant ports. He was himself an instance of this rule, as there were many Lieutenant Governors in different parts of the world who received more than he did as Governor-in-Chief. In the item of Police Department. Sir George Grey explained that the forage money to the Sub Inspector of Police at Wellington had been disallowed in deference to the wishes of the Provincial Council ; but he thought the efficiency of the force would be greatly increased by allowing forage money to the Inspector and he should wish to see the addition made. In answer to an observation from Mr. Cautley on the item Native Interpreter, Sir George Grey said the addition of £25 to his salary had been authorised by himself. The Native Interpreter had represented to him that he received a less amount than any clerk but one in the Government service. He thought £lOO too small a sum, as the interpreter was not merely a clerk but was required to be master of another language. He also discharged the duties of interpreter to the Supreme Court as well as to the Resident Magistrate’s office. The interpreters who had hitherto been employed had frequently been uneducated men. On the vote for the Colonial Chaplain, The Colonial Treasurer said he would move the estimate as a matter ofiorm, but proposed to divide the Council and vote against the adoption of this item. Any thing like State support to any religion had been carefully avoided in New Zealand. He would remind the Council that‘an ordinance of the first session of the Legislative Council of New Zealand, the Church Extension Ordinance, which provided assistance for all denominations, bad been disallowed on these grounds, and be was extremely anxious the Council should reject this item.

The Colonial Secretary of New. Munster proposed the item should be struck out, seconded by Mr. Cautley, The Lieutenant-Governor intended to vote for the continuance of the Chaplain, who had several duties, as the hospital and gaol, to attend to. At the time the appointment was made there was only one minister of the Church of England in Wellington, and if from any cause he was absent it followed, as a matter of course, that the members of that church, who constituted the greater portion of this large community, were without any ministrations of religion. He should be sorry to see the Council refuse to sanction the appointment, as it was necessary a recognized person should be appointed to minister to the spiritual wants of our hospitals and gaols. The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand opposed the amendment. Mr. Bell, while professing the greatest respect for the person holding the office, should support the amendment because he conceived the proposal rested on the propriety or im-

propriety of supporting one religious denomination at the expense of the State. In reference to visiting the hospitals and gaols, he thought those institutions should be equally visited by ministers of all denominations. Sir George Grey would defend the.appointment of tne Colonial Chaplain on two grounds. Notwithstanding what had been said by hon. members, he considered the Church of England in New Zealand to be an oppressed church, not a dominant one. Instead of the law protecting the church, it was labouring under peculiar disabilities, and was therefore entitled to the compassion of ths Council. If he (Sir George) turned to the Church of Rome, he found they had the power of appointing bishops, of making districts, of sending priests, and of doing every thinu required for the constitution and discipline of a church. The Wesleyan Church had a perfect church establishment, in the appointment of their ministers, in collecting subscriptions, and in every thing relating to the internal government of their body. If he wished to see the Church of England with a complete government, the law prohibited it; and he would contend that, instead of dominating over other churches, it was by the necessity of the law below every other. The great majority of the community belonged to the Church of England, and it was the bounden duty of the Council to provide for the spiritual wants of the patients in the hospital, of prisoners, &c., and no church embraced so large a number of the inhabitants. He was perfectly satisfied the appointment ought to be made, as the great majority had a clear right.to the services of a chaplain. This question appeared to involve no question of religious liberty. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster confessed his astonishment at th e new view of the state of the Colonial Church of England put forth by His Excellency. He had certainly been in the habit of looking upon it as a body possessed of more wealth and influence than any other religious sect in the country. But if the law as it stood really bore so hardly upon this church, and it actually was in such a poor and oppressed condition as to have a claim upon the compassion of the Council, he thought a pitiful grant of £2OO a-year would not go very far to relieve it. He thought a better way to remedy the evil would be for it to exert its influence with the church in the mother country of which it was a branch, and whose wealth and power at least were undoubted, to get the laws that oppressed it repealed or amended. Nor could he allow that the line of argument taken by His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor justified the grant. Had His Excellency maintained that the Chaplain was part of his private establishment, one in short of a Governor’s staff necessary to bis state and dignity, he thought the position would be much more tenable. Then, at least, every Governor would have the right of choosing a chaplain of his own religious persuasion, and something like a fair principle would be gone upon. But as he rested the propriety of the grant on the general benefit to the colony, all the objections to partial encouragement of one religious body over the. rest were immediately admitted. Why should not the Wesleyans, the Independents, the Primitive Methodists, the Roman Catholics, claim equal assistance from the State ? It was said that by far the majority of the settlers belonged to this church. He believed their numbers had been overstated, and that they really constituted only about one-half of the whole population. But the larger their numbers, and as they contained among them certainly that portion of the commnnihj wkinl. !-»«-»~~ —l*l. * .1 .--u.vj •• uwu uuU ruuoi. wcauu, was urn uiiS the very reason why they should be the last to come for assistance ? Again, it was said, the grant was to provide for religious ministration to prisoners in gaol and patients in the hospital. But was it not notorious that ministers of other sects gave their attention gratuitously ? Had they not heard of public complaints, that the ministers of some sects, of one at least in particular, had been too assiduous in these attentions ? Did they ask for payment for these services? Then why should all denominations pay for spiritual ministration which would only be given to the prisoners and patients of one ? If it was necessary that payment should be given to secure such ministration, which he did not acknowledge, why not say so plainly, and pay every one alike for such ministration ? If that was to be done, he had rather see a sum fixed, to be paid for each visit of a minister of any persuasion to those of his sect. That at least would be straightforward and fair. He should certainly vote against the grant. After some further discussion the Committee divided, For the amendment 6, against it 7. Amendment lost. In the Item Colonial Bank of Issue the salary of clerk was raised to £125. The Committee then adjourned. Sir George Grey wished, before the Council adjourned, to say one word with reference to his previous observations on the Post office

department as he was always afraid of seeming harsh. If the Legislative Council had the power of promoting an officer they would also have the power of degrading him ; and he considered it was sufficient that an officer should be exposed to the ordeal of having his salary voted yearly without being exposed to •the risk of having his standing in the public service altered year by year. With reference to the gentleman holding the office in question, he could only add that he had a great respect for him, and considered him to be a very deserving officer.

several notices of motion were given and the Council then adjourned.

Thursday, July 24. Capt. Smith presented a petition from J. Storah, a Hutt settler, praying for compensation for losses sustained during the disturbances at the Hutt. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster piesented a memorial from the Committee of the Mechanics Institute at Wellington, praying for assistance, and expressed his intention of moving that a grant in aid of this Institution be placed on the estimates. ESTIMATES. The Council then went into Committee on the estimates. The remaining items of the estimates for Wellington were severally agreed to. In considering the items for Nelson Mr. Cautley alluded to the practice of confining lunatics in gaols, and regretted no lunatic asylum had been established in New Zealand. Sir George Grey observed on the subject of lunatics, that it was an object of the greatest concern to him there was no lunatic porrlnm Cm- 4-L.ziiw. J_ _ • .y ■» uuciL Acucpnuu ; in tue early stage of. the colony this was one of those wants, arising from so many small settlements which had been formed in these Islands, which it was difficult for the Government to supply. A lunatic asylum was a most expensive building to establish, bnt nothing would delight him more than to see such an institution formed.

On the motion of Mr. Cautley the sum of £oo was added to the estimates to provide a fire proof safe at Nelson for the reception of the sub-treasury papers and other documents. In reply to a question from Mr. Cautley, as to the course the Government would ultimately adopt with reference to medical and charitable aid and hospital establishments, and alluding to the proposed establishment of a hospital at Nelson, which as the settlers were generally well off, the hon. member thought likely to prove a nuisance :

Sir George Grey said it was only possible for him, in attempting to explain the general system of Government, to say what he himself intended to do. Among the different charges that had been made against his Government, this was the first time he had been accused of introducing nuisances in the shape of hospitals into the country. Hitherto in the Southern Province no definite plans had been acted upon; the only plan of endowment, by giving estates of land to these institutions, had been prevented by the existence of the New Zealand Company. At the north, estates had been set apart for the support of the hospitals which, with those institutions, would be placed under the control of the Corporations, so that they would not occasion much expense. The hospital at Nelson was not likely to prove an incubus; a building had fallen to the Government which would be appropriated to this purpose, land would be added, and these would *be placed under the management and regulation of the Corporation of Nelson, when that body was established, and he should without any degree of sorrow hand over to them the hospital. He thought the question in some degree misunderstood, a man meeting with an accident might have cows and other property, and yet possess but an indifferent house and few of those comforts which were required when lying on a bed of sickness, especially where operations were to be performed, and he thought such a one would gladly pay for the comfort and attendance he would receive in a hospital. As endowments were added he thought these institutions would prove of great utility, and would occasion but a little expense. All the Government had attempted to do, in the way of charitable aid was to pass a Poor Law, (the Destitute Persons Relief Bill,) the effect of which was to compel unwilling relatives to perform their natural duties, and the operation of which would be developed as the population of the country increased. The relief at Nelson was unfortunately extended from the sad occurrence at Wairau, and he should be glad to see, when representative institutions were introduced, pensions bestowed on those persons in. the same way as on those at the north who had been wounded while engaged in the operations against the natives. He (Sir George) thought these Institutions might he defended on these grounds.

The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand said that at the North the patients in the 14 rxCYAIt ol nal/l r* nnrfciln r\»«z> »»•» ~ C pc&tta Lt V>V«VU*» |JIVpUIUVU Uk LIICII rations; those who were able always Daid cheerfully. Mr. Cautley was very happy to bear testimony to the great utility of these Institutions as far as the natives were concerned, and thought if Europeans were to pay a portion of their expenses they would value them the more. On the item of £3OO for repair of roads at Nelson being proposed. Mr. Cautley expressed great satisfaction in seeing the sum of £3OO placed on the estimates for the repair of roads and bridges in that settlement. The hon. member then referred to two memorials he had presented in the early part of the session, the one requesting assistance towards the repair of the roads, the other for aid towards the erection of a bridge over the Maitai. On the former (the repair of roads) the hon. member, alluding more particularly to the Motueka district which was of considerable value, said the inhabitants would be satisfied if the roads communicating with the boat harbours of the district, from which they shipped their produce to Nelson, were put in a state of repair, which would probably require £2OO. The road to the Wakapuaka district would also probably require £5O for repairs. With regard to the Maitai bridge, he thought it hard the town of Nelson should still be divided into two parts by this river for want of a bridge which, in times of flood, would be of great use to those going or returning to Wairau by the new road. The Nelson settlers have already subscribed £lOO towards this bridge, and from the estimates made about £2OO more would be required. He would therefore move the sum of £7OO be placed on the estimates for the repair of roads, &c., and he thought if the roads were once put in a good state of repair the settlers would cheerfully tax themselves to maintain them in that state.

The motion was seconded by the Colonial Secretary of New Munster. Sir George Grey had no difficulty in agreeing to the vote if the Council thought proper. He believed the estimate of the revenue at Nelson was understated, as the fees of Crown lands and other sums arising from the same source would be added, but were not included in the estimates because the bill anthnrißincr fkom j <i_ . UUI jCi pilbbuu me Council. Of course it was understood if the revenue was not sufficient the sum would not be granted, but he had little doubt there would be sufficient funds to meet the amount. The sum of £7O was also voted for improving Nelson harbour. On the items of Resident Magistrate’s and Police Departments at Lyttelton being proposed, Sir George Grey explained that, although a salary was put on the estimates for the Resident Magistrate at Lyttelton, Mr. Godley, the Resident Agent of the Association, who was willing at the beginning of the settlement to unite the two offices, declined at the time of his appointment to receive any salary; but as it might become necessary, when he found the duties too onerous, to appoint some other person, the amount of the salary of Resident Magistrate had been placed on the estimates. At the time the Principal Agent accepted the office of Resident Magistrate, as it became impossible for him to discharge all its duties, he (Sir George) thought it better, instead of appointing a Serjeant-major of police, to appoint a superior officer as Sub-Inspector, who • , . , ’ i . ‘ UMC ‘ BUUW assistance io tne Resident Magistrate.

Sir George Grey wished to bring before tne Council a letter from the Resident Magistrate at Lyttelton enclosing certain resolutions passed ata public meeting, and referring to a memorial which he had not yet received. The resolutions, which were read, sought assistance from the Government for laying down moorings for the shipping at Lvttelton. b J Mr. Bell had had some experience in these matters and considered £lOOO would not cover the expense. The moorings sent out by the New Zealand Company to New Plymouth had cost £l2OO, and required to be taken up every six months, the ships required to lift them being larger than those for which they were laid down.

oir vreorge Grey thought the question had better be left for the present to the Government and the Resident Magistrate of that settlement. He would see the subject was not lost sight of. J In the estimates for Otago, on the Supreme Court department being proposed, Mr. Cautley considered a judge at Otago, ip a population of 1,500 persons, a most useless appointment, and, if he stood alone would divide the committee on this question. Sir George Grey considered this a mistaken view of the subject, as although the Judge’s salary was charged on the estimates

of O tago, it was really defrayed by the general revenue, and no Council would be able to interfere with it. He also thought that if the appointment was not absolutely necessary at present, a third Judge would be shortly required. The Judge at Otago was a Judge of the Supreme Court, and might sit in any part of the country. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster would support Mr. Cautley’s amendment. The Judge having been appointed by the Home Government, it would be difficult to dispose of him; but he considered there was hardly enough work for two judges. Sir George Grey would only state, with reference to this appointment, that the Home Government were not to blame, the appointment was made on the representation of the officer the Government of this Province, who had strongly urged the necessity of such an appointment. The only effect of pressing this motion would be to call the attention of the Home Government to the subject, and before the representation of the Council could reach them the necessity of the appointment would be apparent. Mr. Bell thought that, on the introduction of steam communication, one of the Judges might be dispensed with, and a great many other offices might also be suppressed with advantage.

Sir George Grey conceived that rapidity of communication would render necessary the appointment of another Judge, as increase of wealth would increase the number of appeals, which would require the appointment of a third Judge. If the Council wished to do anything on a basis likely to be permanent, and to produce a good effect, they might address the Crown, so that it might be perfectly understood that for the future no Judges should be created in New Zealand, until an address to the Crown from the General Legislative Council of the colony requested their appointment. It was perfectly possible that these Associations in connexion with New Zealand might send out their own judges without reference to the people in the colony, until New Zealand might be completely overjudged. After some further discussion His Excellency’s suggestion was agreed to. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary of New Munster, the sum of £228 :15s. was voted for repairs of roads and bridges in Dunedin. On a grant of £2OO to the New Zealand Society being proposed, Mr. vautley objected to the grant as premature, the Society having been but recently formed.

Sir George Grey was almost inclined to doubt whether New Zealand was not premature altogether, when he heard objections to the institution of hospitals, to the appointment of Judges, and to the grant to this Society, as being premature. The reason why no sum had been placed on the estimates for the Mechanics’ Institute was that it was a local Institution. He thought the New Zealand Society would prove most useful to the colony. _ The Society had been established on principles similar to that of the Van Diemen s Land society, which had now been in existence four years, and which had been productive of great benefit to that colony. The grant to the Van Diemen’s Land Society was £4OO, and he had proposed half that sum for this Society. The very fact of possessing a moderate share of ability should induce them to nurture what they had, and endeavour from the earliest period of the colony to cultivate and develop those talents that would be useful to societv. in recommending this grant he thought he was doing a wise act, and what would be really beneficial to the colony. The vote was opposed by the Colonial Treasurer, who wished to divide the committee on this question, but he was not supported. r

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster proposed a grant of £2OO to the Mechanics’ Institute at Wellington. The motion was seconded by Mr, Bell, and voted on the understanding that .£lOO was to be applied to the general purposes of the Institution, and £lOO to be devoted to the purchase of standard works, to form the nucleus of a library. The case of J. Storah was then referred to the Executive Government, His Excellency promising he would take care that justice was done in this case. The sum of £1,500 was placed on the estimates xor the erection of a gaol at Wellington,. The committee then adjourned. I Sundry notices of motion were given, and the Council then adjourned.