LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 622, 19 July 1851, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday, July 15, 1851. Captain Smith presented a petition from a Hutt-settler named Storah, praying for compensation for damage sustained during the disturbances by the rebel natives at the Hutt in 1846. Mr. Bell wished to ask the Attorney General of New Zealand whether the Land Fund Appropriation Ordinance, passed by the present Council in June, was not repugnant to the Act of Parliament passed in July, 1847, authorizing the New Zealand Company to receive, on the reversion of their lands to the Crown, £268,000 from the future sales of land in New Zealand. The Attorney General, in reply, stated that it was not repugnant to that Act. Sir George Grey said it would be evident to members of that Council that the charge by the Act of Parliament on the land fund was only a temporary charge, which would cease when the claims of the Company were satisfied, but the other was a peimanent measure which would remain for all time ; taking therefore the strongest view of the case, the powers granted by the Land Appropriation Ordinance could only be inoperative for a time, and would come into operation when the payments to the Company had been made. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, the Marriage Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary of New Munster the Census Ordinance was read a third time and passed. CROWN LANDS AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of the Attorney General of New Zealand the Council went into committee on this Bill. Mr. Uautley moved an additional clause after clause 6, requiring that in proclaiming any Hundred one year’s notice shall be given to any stockholder, if more than one fifth of his run is included in the proposed Hundred, and authorising the Governor-in-Cbief to revoke any Proclamation proclaiming hundreds j‘ by the Governors of Provinces. A good deal of discussion arose on Mr. Cautley’s motion, particularly the last part of it, in the course of which

Sir George Grey observed that the latter part of the clause was unnecessary, and that t le only way in which the subject had been fought under discussion was a case at the orth, when the wardens of one Hundred had w 'shed to encroach on the boundaries of an , joining Hundred, but their encroachments oad been successfully resisted. The effect of ? a J nent^ aient would be to make it doubtful iether he had the power to revoke or alter a reclamation once issued, relating to a Hunfm ’ c^ aUse might declare that fcr the tt Ur J’ before the Governor shall proclaim a n if the Hundred should include more a °, ne of any stockholder’s run, then indivL 8 n . ot j ce should be necessary, so that an ual should not be dislodged unless the

wants of the community require it, and then that he should not be utterly ruined by removal, but should have sufficient time to allow of his making arrangements for disposing of his stock. Considerable discussion took place on the 9th clause, Mr. Bell contending for a more general wording of the clause, so as to extend the powers of the pastoral wardens, as he conceived there were many regulations which might be conveniently entrusted to them to make besides those relating to the safety of sheep, such as the marking of boundaries between runs, settling the year marks, and other matters which were of considerable importance to stockholders. Sir George Grey quite agreed with Mr. Bell that there were many other duties that would devolve on the pastoral wardens, but he was not now prepared to say what those duties were ; he thought it more advisable to let the matter grow in a similar way to the course pursued with reference to the other Hundreds. In these larger districts he should prefer seeing the Council legislate cautiously and rest satisfied with conferring powers suited to their development. He thought in the present bill they were going quite far enough. The remainingclauses were considered and agreed to, the Ist September, 1851, being fixed as the time at which the bill should come into operation. The committee then adjourned. ’ ESTIMATES.

Sir George Grey said he would now lay on the table the Appropriation Ordinance and Estimates for the current year for both Provinces, and in doing so he did not think it either his duty or that it would be becoming in him to enter into details, because there were present members of the Governments of both Provinces who were able to afford every requisite information on those points. His own duty, as Governor-in-Chief, was to give such a general outline as would convey a clear idea of the present financial state of the colony. In attempting to do this he would recall to the recollection of hon. members that the expences of the general Government of the colony, the salaries of the Governor-in-Chief and the Bishop of New Zealand, the expence of the colonial brig, the expence of schools, and hitherto the cost of public works on which natives were employed, were defrayed by the liberality of Parliament and of the British Government. Leaving aside the consideration of this latter question (public works) the general expenses he had alluded to amounted to between £7.000 and £B,OOO per annum. He was glad to be able to state that the financial condition of the islands was extremely good. As far as he could give an approximate estimate there was a balance of £9,000 lying in the chests of the various settlements, exclusive of a sum of £1,600 still due from the Canterbury Association, and no portion of the parliamentary grant for the current year, although nearly four months of it had elapsed, had yet been drawn, so that there were large balances to meet the calls which might be made upon them. Looking at the general revenue of these Islands he estimated the whole revenue at £59,900, and the expenditure at £57,400, leaving a balance of £2,000 in favour of the colony ; but he believed that in this calculation the revenue was underestimated. Turning to details, in New Munster it would be necessary to incur an expenditure of £27,154 0 10, while the estimated revenue was £29,710 0 0. A considerable number of charges were thrown ou the estimates of this Province which they had not hitherto borne, as, for example, some portion of the cost of the roads in New Munster. The whole expence of the management of the waste lands was also thrown on the revenue, while the Council were aware that one large portion, and that the most valuable portion of the lands of this Province, were in the hands of an Association, and that nothing could be expected from that source; and from the unsettled state of the lands no revenue could be safely calculated on for the present year. On the other hand there were certain expenses, as the Surveys, the expense of keeping offices open to give information as to lands, the issuing of Crown Grants, which must necessarily be incurred, and which would be only partly defrayed by the fees to be received from grants, licenses for runs and other sources. If he had committed any error in these estimates it was in favor of the public.. He had thought it better to charge these expenses on the revenue than on the parliamentary grant, leaving the latter available for public works. In New Ulster it was •necessary to incur there an expenditure of £30,322, whilst the estimated revenue amounted to £30,268, leaving a deficit of £54, but a considerable portion of the expenditure was of a productive kind ; for instance the sum of nearly £3,000 was set apart for constructing a public wharf at Auckland, which, when completed, would reclaim i from the sea between six and seven acres ,of : valuable land, so that that part of the ex-

penditure might be regarded merely as an i advance, leaving a considerable profit on the outlay. In the same way a considerable sum in that Province was estimated for Educational Institutions, which ex* pense was incurred for the sake of the natives, who contributed largely to the revenue. As far as both Provinces are concerned, the balances in the colonial chests, instead of decreasing, would probably continue to augment. No estimate had been made for public works on which natives were to be employed, which would continue to be defrayed, as hitherto, from the Parliamentary grant. The Council would see that the financial condition of the colony was in a very prosperous state. One cause of dissatisfaction existed in the distant parts of the colony which, in the absence of necessary information, rendered it impossible to decide on the amount to be expended. In this respect New Zealand differed from any other colony. It was, for example, nothing like South Australia, where there was one settlementfrom which the population radiated, as from a centre, into the surrounding country districts. Here a number of separate settlements had been formed at a considerable distance from each other, each requiring a government to be controlled by a central power, and it was almost impossible for one man, or one government, adequately to discharge this duty ; but by the passing the Provincial Councils Bill the Council had provided for these settlements, isolated as they are, the means of regulating their internal affairs, and for administering that portion of the revenue which would remain after providing for the expense of the general government. By this arrangementthe local revenues would be better administered, the public funds would, he hoped, be more satisfactorily applied, than under the present system. With regard to the balances now available, he had encouraged this accumulation, because Government should take care that no Province should be called into existence in a state of debt, —that it should not, at its outset, have to contend against financial difficulties, but rather have the pleasing duty of disposing of a surplus revenue in the execution of public works, and of increasing, if necessary, the salaries of public officers. From the statement now made, he hoped that these objects would be kept in view, and that the Provinces would enter on the discharge of their new duties unembarrassed by any financial cares for the future.

NOTICES OF MOTION. Mr. Cutfield gave notice he would move, on consideration of the estimates— That it is expedient that the Militia at New Plymouth be called out and trained, and that the Governor-in-Chief be respectfully requested to insert an item in the Estimates providing for the payment of the same at the rate of not less than two shillings per diem whilst so serving. That this Council respectfully request that his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief will be pleased to place an item in the Estimates providing for the making of two or more main roads into the New Plymouth forest with a view of inducing persons to settle there. The Council then adjourned to Thursday. Thursday, July 17, 1851. The Attorney General of New Zealand wished to ask the chairman of the subcommittee on the New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill when the committee would bring its labours to a close, and to intimate that if it was the intention of the committee to recommend an appeal to the Supreme Court from the Commissioner of Crown Lands, who was authorized to hear, examine, and report, he should move as an amendment that the Commissioner should be authorized to hear, examine, and decide on all claims. The Lieutenant Governor said the labours of the sub committee were drawing to a close and be hoped on Tuesday next to bring up their report. CROWN LANDS AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of the Attorney General of New Zealand Council went into committee on thijs bill. Mr. Cautley moved the following amendment, which he substituted for his former resolution on Tuesday—

And Whereas it is expedient that the provisions of the said recited Ordinance should not come into operation within the limits of any Hundred until a considerable portion of the land comprised therein shall have been granted by by the Crown, and shall be in the actual occupation of the grantee, or others deriving thereirom. Be it enacted that the said Ordinance shall not come into operation within any such Hundred until by Proclamation to be issued by the Governor of the Province, with the advice of the Executive Council thereof, it shall be proclaimed and declared so to do. Provided always that if more than one fifth part of any licensed run shall be comprised within the limits of any such Hundred, such portion of any such run shall not be deemed to form part of such Hundred for any of the purposes of the said recited Ordinance until the expiration of twelve calendar months from the date of such Proclamation as aforesaid. The hon. member observed that the amendment did not give as much security as he at first proposed, but it restrained the Crown

from needlessly interfering with the holders of runs. The amendment was seconded by the Attorney General of New Zealand. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster presented a memorial to the Governor-in-Chief from certain residents at Nelson referring to this bill. Mr. Bell rose to call the attention of the committee to the assessment imposed by the clause in the old Crown Lands Ordinance upon stock depastured outside the limits of hundreds. Before doing so, however, he wished to notice one point in the memorial

just read. The memorialists complained, on the one hand, of the unjust and careless manner in which the present stockowners had been allowed to monopolize the Wairau district to the exclusion and injury of the memorialists, and they prayed for a new survey and re-adjustment of the runs : on the other hand, they proposed that every man who- got a license under that re-adjustment should have at least 12,000 acres. Now the quantity of land leased by the Company among about thirty-five persons was very much under 400,000 acres of land; but the memorialists, with their minimum of 12,000 acres each, would, in their re-adjustment, give 420,000 acres, at the least to these thirty-five persons ; and he was at a loss to conceive therefore how, on their principle, they would get anything for themselves. This inconsistency was an illustration of the want of practical information with which one had to contend on such subjects. He would now beg to refer the committee to the question of assessment on stock. The assessment fixed by the ordinance was 6d. per head for great cattle, and Id. per head for sheep; and by the ordinance now before the Council, that assessment would of course be extended to the Southern Province. He considered that it was too low, and would propose to the committee to double it. At present there was in the pastoral districts of this Province an immense extent of country occupied for depasturage, upon a very inadequate rent. A stockowner possessing 1,000 sheep, for which under the regulations now before the Council he would get a license over perhaps 10,000 acres (to allow for five years’ increase) would pay under £4 as head money for the first year. If he commenced with 12,000 sheep, which would give him the first year from £l,OOO to £1,500 worth of wool, besides the whole value of the year’s increase, he would, under the present assessment, pay but £5O as his rent. It was obvious that to double the assessment would therefore inflict no serious injury on the stockowner, or impose a rent which he could not afford. It must further be remembered, that although under the Company’s leases, the rent was Id. a-head for sheep, those leases were for a very short and uncertain term. The Government now proposed to give fourteen years’ leases, and in most cases (considering the vast extent of land that would be leased) the restriction of the land being proclaimed into hundreds would be practically inoperative during a great part, if not the whole, of that term. It was but fair that while the use of such immense tracts of country was conceded, something like a fair return should be made, especially as a contribution to the emigration fund. Take, for instance, the Wairau, in which 400,000 acres, or perhaps 600,000 acres wonld be leased very soon for fourteen years ; the rent for the next year would not be more than £4OO, for above 80,000 sheep;

and merely to ask .*£>Boo as rent would not be too much for the stockowners to pay. On : the whole, therefore, as he considered the public interest would be benefited without.any serious injury to the stockowners, he would move that the assessment on stock depastured beyond the limits of hundreds should be, on great cattle Is. per head, and on sheep 2d. per head. Captain Smith said that although he was a stockowner, he should feel great pleasure in seconding the amendment. In reply to an objection by the Attorney General as to the effect of the amendment in interfering with stockowners in the Northern Province.

Mr. Bell observed that as his proposal might interfere with the rights of persons owning cattle in New Ulster, if it were confined to sheep it would facilitate the arrangement. The Colonial Treasurer suggested the difficulty would be better met by excepting the present Crown leases from the operation of the amendment. Sir George Grey said that, addressing himself to the present question, he could not recognise any difference between Crown leases, and the understanding on which persons holding stock were allowed, as at Wairarapa, by the Government to occupy the land. The leases hitherto granted were merely from year to year, there had been nothing like a fourteen years lease yet granted, and it would be the justest course to suffer the present leases to expire, and to charge the increased rate ca

all fresh leases to be grafted. But be was not satisfied with the policy of the present proposal which, to a certain extent, was to be regarded as one for the imposition of a kind of property tax. It bad been calculated hitherto that the payments made by the stockholders would be sufficient to pay the expense of managing those districts which they occupied, and it was to pay such expenses that the present assessment was imposed ; but the Committee now proposed to levy a tax like a property tax on so many sheep, not to defray the cost of management bat as a source of revenue. If this were to be the question, it was not sufficient to double the rate, to substitute two pence for a penny a bead on each sheep; if they were to impose a property tax on the stockholders it would be necessary to consider whether they could afford to pay to such a tax, and then to determine what its amount should be. The stockholder invested a considerable amount of money in stock, the Government gave him no absolute tenure of property, the utmost tenure he received was this, he could not be deprived of his whole run without twelve months notice, and even this notice was not given for the sake of the stockholder, but for the sake of the community which would suffer great injury from bis ruin. He conceived the real case to be this ; there was a certain quantity of waste land in a state of nature which yielded no profit to the public; this the stockowner was allowed to occupy, and to make from it what wealth he could. The stockowner was subject, with other classes, to the ordinary taxation of the colony, and in addition had to pay such a tax as would enable the government to maintain order, and provide for the regulation and management of the pastoral districts. If a property.tax were to be imposed, the stockholders would immediately say they have rights different from those which they now possess, and it might be found difficult to dislodge them from their runs when they were required for sale. The proposed increased impost might not press upon them now when the price of sheep and wool was so high, but it might hereafter be found to be very burdensome. Estimating sheep at their present market value, which he believed to be 15s. a head, the increased tax would not be felt much now, but if hereafter they were to be reduced in value to Is. 6d. a head, as had been the case in some of the neighbouring Colonies, or even to 3s. a head as he believed might prove to be the case in this country, the tax would prove oppressive. Though disposed to yield to the wishes of the Council on this as on every other point, be did not think an increased rate would be a very judicious measure. Mr. Bell observed that the expense of managing the runs, on the part of Government, would not at the present time be much less than the amount which would be produced by doubling the assessment. The rent, for example, from the "Wairau district would not amount to more than £4OO which would be inadequate to meet the expenses of management, and this was therefore, he conceived, a fair reason for increasing the amount to be levied by this tax. The hon. member referred to the license fees paid by Publicans and Auctioneers which, in his opinion, might be regarded as a kind of property tax ; and observed that if the expenses of managing the Pastoral districts were not met by the present tax; the deficiency must be made good from the public revenue, and the public would; in fact, be called upon to contribute to the relief of a class who, perhaps, were better able than any ether .class to Support their share of taxation.

Sir ueorge trrey said his views were not in any way altered by what had fallen from the hori. member ; in reply to his argument he should remind him that the fee demanded from the publican and auctioneer was not a property tax, but was usually regarded as a bort of guarantee that persons possessing a certain stake and respectability should exercise those callings. Admitting the assessment on stock, as at present levied, was not sufficient to defray the expense of management and regulation of. the pastoral districts, in a few years it would yield an enormous profit. If they were to suppose that the Middle Island would only carry ten millions of sheep, the assessment would produce £40,000, which would be very much more than sufficient tn doFray all ex—penses. But he had heard it stated/on competent authority, that the Middle Island would carry from sixteen to twenty millions of sheep, which, at the present assessment, would produce a yearly amount of £BO,OOO. It was also to be borne in mind that, in the commencement of every colony, the establishment and expense of Government was always very large-in proportion to the population and revenues of the community, while,..as the numbers and wealth of the colony augmented, the expense of the Government did not in any degree keep pace with those augmented means. In a few years the Wairau would yield a considerable revenue from the present assessment; he therefore did not feel inclined id increase the present rate.

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster confessed he could not agree with his Excellency’s view of this case. He could not look upon the head-money paid upon stock in the light of a property tax. It seemed to him that the only fair way was to look upon it as the rent paid for the land used by the stockowners. Even if the tenure of the latter was in some sort a tenancy at will, still it was certain that in most cases they would enjoy a fourteen years’ lease undisturbed. They had then a monopoly to that extent of the Crown lands. Were they not to pay for this? The agriculturist had to buy lands of Government; and Government in his case not only put a considerable upset price upon it, but secured all it could for the land in addition thereto by the system of sale by auction. But it was notorious that stock-farming paid very much better than agriculture. Was it not fair then to make the stockowner, to whom you gave the most beneficial occupation by far of the land, pay the worth of it in rent ? It was stated that the only object was to provide funds for the management of the lands so let. But it was allowed to be probable that for some years at least the present rents would not meet this expense. During this period, then, it would be justifiable at all events to increase them. Sheep farming was most profitable in the earlier years of the occupation of any country ; and so long as the profits were high, the additional head-money might be fairly demanded. As a temporary measure it could not be objectionable. And, as these laws were not like the laws of the Medes and Persians, there was no reason why, whenever this head-money became oppressive, a new regulation might not be made. But there were other expenses besides Commissioners’ salaries and leases. The memorial he had had the honor to present to Council insisted on the necessity of rough surveys of pastoral districts being made. This would add considerably to the cost of managing these lands. But was there any reason why, if even all this were paid for, the stockowners, having a beneficial monopoly for a certain time of lands belonging to the public, should not contribute something to the funds for emigration as well as the purchaser of of agricultural land ? But at any rate there was no reason why Government, in addition to giving the public lands to stockowners, should also require the public to pay, as it was acknowledged would have to be done at present, for the control and management, of these lands. It was to be observed also that the seconder and some of the supporters of the resolution were sheepholders, and kiiew as well as most people what they were able to pay.

Mr. Cautley thought no one in Nelson would be satisfied until a rough survey were made of the Wairau, which it would be desirable to have done if it were only to disabuse the minds of the settlers of erroneous impressions they had received as to that district, and he thought the sheepowners would themselves prefer to pay these expenses. With reference to the regulation before the Council, he should be disposed to prefer paying a higher rate of head money and a smaller license fee, which pressed heavily on those who were forming stations.

Sir George Grey hoped the Council would permit him to add one remark more, as he was utterly unprepared for so important an amendment as that which had been proposed, and of which no previous notice had been given ; and the more he considered the sub= ject fresh arguments presented themselves to his mind. One important duty of the Council and Government was to endeavour to increase the real wealth of the colony, not by an increased amount of taxation, but by what would give immediate wealth, by having the country filled with sheep and population, which would be a much greater advantage to each class than a prospective revenue to be derived from a large assessment on stock. In framing his measures he had kept in view the practice of the ancients in founding colonies who held out every inducement to lead as large a number of persons as possible to join the first body. He had left the rate of assessment generally the same as was levied in the Australian colonies, and had reduced the license fee one half, and as soon as it was neara in Australia that such liberal regulations had been made, it would occasion a large importation of stock into New Zealand, but if it were reported that the rates were doubled it would deter great numbers from coming. That one circumstance would decide them in judging of the regulations, that fact alone would determine them in their opinion oil the policy of this measure. He (Sir George) did not consider so great an advantage was to be derived from a prospective large revenue as the Council appeared to believe, whilst numerous flocks, increased commerce, and population would greatly increase the wealth of the country, and he would not willingly do anything that would have a tendency to prevent this advantage from accruing to the colony, as it was quite certain that an extension

of commerce and population would increase the wealth and prosperity of the whole community. Mr. Bell said that although the amount of labour required by the stockowner wassmall, yet it operated, to a certain extent, as an abstraction of labour from the market which pressed inconveniently on the agriculturist. If the principle were admitted that the stockowners should pay for the management of the pastoral districts, be thought they should also contribute to the importation of labour to which, although they occupied an immense territory in proportion to the agriculturist, they contributed nothing. Although some years hence this tax might produce a large revenue, it would be found insufficient to meet present expenses. Several districts were known to exist in connection with the Wairau, but which were not available for pastoral purposes for the want of roads; and he conceived it would be unfair to require the Government to t>»v fnr roads to new nastoral districts when the expense of making them ought to be borne by those for whose use they were required. He thought the amount of the tax to be raised under his amendment would be cheerfully paid by the stockowners, and referred, in support of his statement, to the fact that it was seconded by a stockowner. Although it had been objected that the increased tax would check the introduction of stock from Australia, he considered it would be dangerous to encourage the introduction of large flocks belonging to persons residing out of New Zealand, which would prevent the real colonization of these Islands by persons who were actual colonists. At the same time, as this was a Government question, and being himself a Government officer, he had no desire to press his amendment. The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand considered the arguments to be so strong on both sides the question, that he would move an adjournment to give time for the further consideration of the question. The motion for an adjournment was not seconded.

Sir George Grey hoped that on this, as on every other occasion, hon. members would give their opinions and their votes according to the best of their judgment; he had in the same spirit stated his own views and opinions, in order that they might each profit by the free expression and interchange of sentiment. He had heard nothing to change his opinion, and must confess he did not understand what was meant by real colonization and real wealth. He could not understand the terms in the sense in which they had been used. They were told if stock were sent by owners not resident in the colony it would prevent the increase of population, to which he answered let those flocks be sent, and with them increased wealth, increased commerce, and increased population would soon follow. If such arguments had been used with reference to Sydney, instead of being, as it now is, the wonder of the world, it would have remained to the present time an insignificant village. He understood the simple meaning of real colonization to be, not the shutting out of persons from using the waste lands by taxation. If such persons were prevented by injudicious regulations from using the land by squatting, another bar would be put in the way of the prosperity of the country. If the stockowner simply poured his flocks into the colony, although he himself did not reside in it, from the weaxtb he realized an increase of population must soon follow ; the stockowner would probably be induced to purchase estates and ultimately to become a resident in the colony ; but, at all events, great exports must produce large imports, and considerabe commerce and trade. He (Sir George) would by all means encourage the introduction of population and stock into the colony, and he did not know anything which would have so prejudicial an effect as a tax tending to discourage the introduction of stock into these Islands, which stock he hoped to see largely introduced in the course of the present year. The Attorney General of New Zealand was opposed to the amendment, which he considered would be unfair to the stockowners at the North.

The Council then divided on Mr. Bell’s amendment, when there were for the amendment S-against it 8. Amendment lost. lhe Committee then adjourned and the Report was brought up and adopted. NT ° n e raotion of tlie Colonial Secretary of New Munster the Naturalization Bill was read a third time and passed! Or. the motion of the Colonial Treasurer, the Appropriation Ordinance was read a first time.

notices of Motion. The Lieutenant Governor gave notice he would bring up on Tuesday the Report of the Sub Committee on the New Zealand Company s Land Claimants Bill. Mr. Bell gave notice he would, on Tuesthl considerali °n in Committee of the Building Societies Bill.

The Colonial Treasurer would move the second teadL 0 of Appropriation Ordinance. L 4 Ta H } The Council then adjourned k T- , —