LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 621, 16 July 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

Friday, July 11, 1851, CROWN LANDS AMENDMENT BILI. The Attorney General of New Zeal M U moving the second reading of this bill 2 that as it had been sometime before the C Oa cil, and as its principal object was to en d to the whole of New Zealand a law which h already been in operation in the Northm Province, it would not be necessary for him to occupy the time of the Council by an . lengthened explanation of its provision/ About two years ago an Ordinance was et acted for regulating the occupation of ife wastelands of the Crown in the Province d New Ulster ; the operation of that Ordinance was confined to the Northern Province, because, at that time, the waste lands of the Crown in the Province of New Munster wee placed under the management of the Nev Zealand Company. By the Ordinince ii question the Governor was authorised to ap. point Commissioners of Crown lands, whose duties were defined by it; and also to mah rules and regulations for the management o| the waste lands of the Crown. The Ordinance also provided for the granting of depasturing licenses, for the levying of an assessments cattle depasturing on the waste lands of th Crown, and for the prevention of squattinga other unlawful intrusion thereon. But tit provision of that Ordinance most deservitj the attention of the Council was that whit gave the right of pasturage within the limit of a Hundred, and the apportionment ofi exclusively to the persons who should take* a depasturing license. In the enactments! this subject the Council would find a perfs model, on a limited scale, of a system of presentative local self government. , In & persons holding depasturing licenses wiilii any Hundred, the exclusive right of pastarage and the apportionment of it was vested without any limitation, or restriction, or appeal. The license fees were paid over tothes and placed at their disposal, to be expended in the improvement of the run. They w® also, for the like purpose, authorised to h’l an assessment on all cattle depastured on the waste lands of the Crown within the Hundred and to elect from amongst themselves aDDi' ally, without any qualification or restricwl whatever, wardens for the management of th Hundred. And for the purposes of providiij for the safety of the cattle to be within the Hundred, for improving the and for preventing the intrusion of therein, the wardens so elected were eßl ' powered to make byelaws, and to imposep«‘ nalties upon persons offending against same. That Ordinance had been for t ,f years in operation in the Province of N’ Ulster ; it had been found to work well, sD ’ to the satisfaction of the public, and had been confirmed by the Crown. Thus teiU by experience and sanctioned by authority was now proposed to extend its operating the Province of New Munster, whose w lands, since the dissolution of the N« w e . land Company, had recently reverted W Crown. But the pastoral character 0 Southern parts of the Islands of J to which it was now proposed to e xten Ordinance, had suggested an additi° a provisions. For many years the P aSt0 ’ ,l j“ e | triets would be too thinly peopled to adffl their being divided into Hundreds, at t e time it seemed to be desirable that the owners should have the power of tßkl^ sJ f e iy sures for providing for the health a° of their flocks. It was accordingly P by the Bill then before the Cotinci Governor should be empowered to p certain pastoral districts to come tcf! operation of the Bill, and that the fl» c f) of every such district should have 11 | through persons to be elected ho® l | themselves, to make such bye laws | lations for preventing the sprea 0 . fl y | amongst their flocks and their de sl)C |idi s '| dogs, as the circumstances of e #c ball trict might require, Believing |

•aid more than enough to secure for the bill the favourable consideration of the Council, he [would conclude by moving its second reading, i The bill was then read a second time. | On the motion of the Attorney General the [Council went into committee on this bill. Title, preamble, and first six clauses were tread and agreed to. r Mr. Cautley moved an amendment on 7th clause to limit the power of the Governor to [proclaim Hundreds without the consent of Executive Council. He thought too great security could not be given to the leaseholders as it would afford them encouragement in improving their stations. The Attorney General observed the Council would be overstepping their powers in passing such an amendment, the effect of which might be to cause the disallowance of the bill. Sir George Grey thought that, although the Governor had the power of proclaiming Hundreds. the effect of this bill wss totally vis—tinct from the purpose of proclaiming Hundreds. The Governor might proclaim counties and Hundreds, but had not authority to create corporations such as were proposed by the bill, and it was competent for the Council to limit the districts within which these rights were to be exercised. He did not think the amendment would be found necessary in practice. It was suggested the wardens appointed by this bill should be called pastoral wardens to distinguish them from the wardens of Hundreds.

On the 9th clause being read ( Mr. Cautley proposed that, owing to the Jdifficulty of communication between the difgferent settlements, the bye laws made by the gwardens should come into force before they •had received the approval of the Governor, and that the fine for driving scabby sheep across a run should be five pounds. Captain Smith proposed that a fine of not less than five pounds, and not exceeding £3O should be imposed; in some cases the mischief done to the owner of a run in spreading disease among his sheep would be very great. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster thought it would be better to fix the maximum, and enact that a fine not exceeding £3O should be imposed ; he also considered it would be desirable to keep the proviso which requited that the bye laws made by the wardens should be subject to the approval of the Governor, to preserve some uniformity among the different bye law's. Mr. Bell did not see the necessity for any interference on the part of the Governor with the bye laws made by the wardens. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster thought some supervision of the bye laws to be made by these bodies was absolutely necessary. It was to be remembered that they were formed of persons chosen entirely from one class, and representing only one interest. It was quite possible under these circumstances that they might make laws, no doubt being advantageous to themselves, but possibly not so advantageous for the rest of the public. To prevent prejudice to the interests of the latter some check and superintendence was required. Sir George Grey, without knowing the stockowners of those districts, conceived such a case might happen as this, that if the holders of runs in the Wairau or the Rangitikei were to pass a bye-law that, for the safety of the sheep in the district, no sheep should travel through it, such a law would practically l prevent the occupation, bv new comers of the districts beyond. He thought the object of the bill was hardly understood ; the pastoral wardens had much larger districts under their control than the wardens of hundreds ; and there was also this important difference; that the wardens of hundreds had considerable funds arising from the rents of lands and assessments, and from the third of the purchase money received from sales of land in their hundreds, placed at their control; they were made to a certain extent rich bodies, to secure efficient persons who would be willing to discharge the duties of wardens: on the contrary, in this case the pastoral wardens would ■ be wealthy stockholders, with a good Jeal of power but with no public funds under their control; and there was this remarkable difference, that in certain instances their byeraws would override the laws of the Provincial Legislative Councils. Looking to the extent of districts, it was necessary to secure uniformity that the Crown, or some officer on the part of the Crown, should give assent to these bye-laws, that the power should virtually reside in the Governor-in-Chief, or the senior officer of the community. It was absolutely necessary that another thing should Rm cons *d ere d. The Provincial Councils “Hl had now become law. These provincial ounctls would be large municipalities with xtended powers, and with a large control er the revenue, and it was a question wheoth f Wou ’d be advisable to create these nnJT P astora l municipalities of the nature flnihJ >rO P O r C d l ’. (Sir George) could not 1 e satisfy his own mind as to whether he

was going too far. On the one hand the pastoral interests were an important interest in this country. A feeling might arise against them in the Provincial Councils, and by calling this body into existence those interested in pastoral affairs might establish nuclei to enable them to unite in resisting any injustice from the Government, or from any other quarter. This provision might, on the other hand, make the stockholders less careful to send members of their body to the Provincial Councils, so as to secure their due share of influence in those Councils, and thus the composition of those Councils might be deteriorated. In wishing to provide what was best for the country, he had not been able to decide whether it might not be the means of creating a future difficulty in regard to the composition of the Provincial Councils. Mr. Cautley considered the establishment of such a body would be highly desirable, as the Provincial Councils might be made up of men unconnected with pastoral pursuits. He also thought, unless means were provided for making improvements, unless some funds were placed at the disposal of the pastoral wardens, it would lessen their usefulness.

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster said he had little hesitation in exnressing his opinion that the advantages to be derived from the establishment of these cdected wardens, even under the points of view alluded to by his Excellency, would greatly outweigh the possible disadvantages. These bodies would act as a balance and, in some degree, a check to the Provincial Councils. Such a system was in ihorough accordance with what might be called the fundamental principle of the British constiiution, and the balance of power being provided for among the settlers themselves would work much better than if the counteracting power was in Government, or some body above them. Nor did he think that the stockholders who included among them, as his Excellency had observed, generally many of the most intelligent persons in each settlement, would lose their interest in the Provincial Councils from the importance of the powers conferred upon them as wardens under the new system, which would tn fact reduce Provincial Councils to Municipal Corporations with extended powers, the former would have so much of the public revenues to dispose of —for all but the portion of the civil list reserved from each would be in their power —and so many general questions to deal with, that he could not conceive but that the stockowners would take as much interest in the Provincial- Councils as if no such bodies as the elected wardens existed. With respect to the supervision of the bye laws, another reason in its favour might be stated. It was of the utmost importance that persons intending to emigrate and engage in stockkeeping, whether from England or the neighbouring colonies, should know exactly what rules and regulations they would be placed under. Now, as there would be many districts, and a body of wardens in each, without some supervision such diversity might be introduced into the various systems of bye laws that it would be impossible for immigrants to make themselves acquainted with them all. The doubt and uncertainty which would result, would greatly impede the speedy occupation of the country by such immigrants, he would therefore vote decidedly for the retention of the clauses establishing the bodies of wardens.

In answer to an objection by Mr. Dillon. Sir George Grey said if the bill, for exJimnlf* vn a e liaccnrl U nrnnrl nvnorkw* V* n ..a*, j/wjjvu uo xk ouvuu av uc (Sir George) should send a circular despatch, inclosing the land regulations, to each Lieutenant Governor or Superintendent, directing him not to assent to any bye laws infringing on those regulations. If this bill were passed, it would establish a system of checks which might be found to work beneficially. Every individual in the community, whether poor or rich, under the regulations which would be in operation, would soon come to regard the administration of the waste lands with the greatest possible concern. If the Provincial Councils might feel disposed to press hard on the pastoral interests, the latter, if united in a compact body, would be able to afford the Governor support in protecting them from aggression. The Council, in commencing such a course of legislation, would find it impossible to stop, neither should he desire it. In a first attempt it would be impossible to meet every contingency, but at the next session of the General Council a more perfect measure might be devised. He (Sir George) was not prepared, until he saw how the system worked, to propose so perfect a system as might be devised. Mr. Bell said the view opened by His Excellency was so much larger than the words of the bill appeared to convey, that it would be better to adjourn the consideration of the clauses. He thought the words hardly conveyed those extended powers alluded to by his Excellency. The Committee then adjourned.

BUILDING societies bill. On the motion of Mr. Bell the Council went into committee on this bill. Mr. Bell observed that the criticisms on this bill by the Colonial Secretary of New Munster bad had the effect of causing him to cut out a good deal of surplus verbiage: he intended to submit the bill to the Attorney General of New Zealand, and hoped that with the assistance of his learned friend, the clauses already considered by the committee might also be considerably shortened. The remaining clauses were then considered and agreed to. Sir George Grey gave notice he would on Tuesday next lay the financial papers before the Council. NOTICES OF MOTION. The following notices of motion were given for Tuesday— The third reading of the Marriage Amendment bill by the Colonial Treasurer. The third reading of Census Bill by the Colonial Secretary of New Muuster. The Council then adjourned.