LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 618, 5 July 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday, July 1, 1851. NEW ZEALAND COMPANY’S LAND CLAIMANTS BILL. The Council met at the usual hour. After prayers, the Council went into committee on New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill. Mr. Bell withdrew his amendment on the third clause. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster said so many amendments had been proposed, and the subject was of so intricate a nature, that it could notwell be considered in ageneral committee, and he thought the time of the Council would be saved and the bill furthered, if a select committee were appointed, to furnish themselves with information, and to report to the Council. Mr. Bell was opposed to delay, but as several members wished to investigate the subject more minutely than could be done in Council, and desired to obtain evidence on some points, he was prepared to vote with the Colonial Secretary for the appointment of a committee.

Sir George Grey only desired to secure that the bill should be approved of when it was sent home, that there should be no probability of its being disturbed when it arrived in England. One of the most important features of the bill was the scrip system, and it stood on record that the Lieutenant-Gover-nor had made amotion that the clause authorising the issue of scrip should be struck out of the bill. Such a motion would carry weight with it, it was therefore extremely desirable that all the objections that could be made to

the measure should be duly considered. Any delay of a few days from the appointment of a committee could do no harm, and might be productive of good effects at home. The Lieutenant-Governor said he had no other object, in proposing that the clause should be struck out, than to direct the attention ol the members of Council more particularly to the subject, and to elicit their opinions. Sir George Grey continued—The fact stands, however, that a motion was made by tbe Lieutenant Governor that the clause should be struck out, and it would be supposed his Excellency was influenced to make this motion trom serious objections io the clause, and this, he thought, would be the view taken at home by the Government, who would never commit so great an injustice to the judgment and penetration of the Council as to suppose, t ey won d have passed by such an important eature in the measure without bestowing on it the most ample consideration, or that Tt was necessary, in order to secure this consideration to have proposed to strike out tbe clause. It would be apprehended that some valid reasons existed why this clause should have been struck out, but these reasons had never been given, at least he (Sir George) had never heard As no valid objection exists to the measure as a principle, he should desire, believing it to be unobjectionable, that any evidence should be taken which would shew if any objection really existed. The principle

of issuing scrip was the same asthT/ 5 ” by the Home Government • if anv ; at,o pteil in England wished to purchase V Colony he would buy scrip f roni Emigration Commissioners, which h a,)(1 use at the land sales. If hon. me mh W ° Ul(i quite made up their minds he had hBi more to say on the subject. He thougS? delay of a single week would di spos f f 9 subject. But il from a lly circunL® ' 9 bill should be disallowed at home 1 ’ would be to make confusion worse co*

Mr. Bell alluded to Mr. Tollemacl le - Scl - which, he said, were of a peculiar nature ] might materially affect the arrano P n IPn , c 81111 posed in the bill. ° s P r °" 1 The following members were then annoin. > on the committee :—The Lieut.-Gov ' ed Col. M’Cleverty, the Colonial New Munster, the Colonial Treasurer Cautley, Cutfield, Bell, and Capt. Smith ‘ DEPASTURING REGULATIONS. The Council then went into committee the Depasturing Regulations. 011 The Cel. Secretary of N. M. would now mpose the clause of which he had given notfc recommending the adoption of a graduated scale of allowance for increase of sheep i the estimation of amount of runs to be gran” ed. The Committee, on a former sion, had favorably received the general pri n * ciple that it is more desirable that a large number of settlers with small flocks should be introduced, than a small number with lar»e flocks. The reasons were obvious. I n tjj e . former case the country would be peopled with small capitalists, who would derive small incomes from their flocks, which they would necessarily spend in the colony. They would probably be of a higher class than the stockkeepers who would be charged with the care of the flocks of large owners. The latter might occupy great tracts of land without living here, and give to another colony the benefits of the large profits they drew from lands belonging to the public. But he insisted chiefly on the benefit of getting a larger number of good settlers. But now for the objections that might be raised to the plan proposed. Some hon. memaers would no doubt assert that his proposal was an infraction of the rules of political economy, and assail him with the old phrases of “over legislation,” “ interference with capital and industry. &c.” But he would state his belief that however good, with qualifications, the rule of non-interference might be, it was a law of Nature’s, he might perhaps say of God s, (and as he took it, these laws were greater than even Jeremy Bentham's,) that in almost all human concerns human laws and human governance were necessary; and that without it they had a tendency to fall into confusion and evil. And this was wisely ordained, because thus many high qualities snch as forethought, vigilance, and ingenuity, were kept in continual exercise and activity. Laissez-faire might be good, but wise interference was mostly better. But to leave these abstractions, be would use another argument, which would perhaps convince hon. members of the necessity of some legislation on the subject. It was only yesterday he had received a formal application for a run —for

how much did the Council think? Not for 20 only, not for 50 square miles,- —but for no less than 225 square miles, in the other island. Nor would this tract of land be nearly large enough for the increase of the sheep proposed to be pul upon it if, as some hon. member wished, allowance was to be made for 5 years increase. About double would then be required, (even allowing only acres to a sheep) or no less than 450 square miles, considerably above 300,000 acres. And this

was required not by what he might call the great continental capitalists from the other side of the water —but by one of our own insular and comparatively small ones. And he had that day received two more appliestions for he believed some 140 or 150 square miles each. What then might be expected to be demanded by large stockowners from New South Wales? He would now proceed to meet some other objections. It w o al(1 possibly be said that, the object being to encourage the small flockowner, the prop 6l wa y was to let anybody introduce as many sieep as he could, to get the country stocked as fast as possible, whether by very large own ers or others, so that slock might soon -i plentiful and cheap, and small capitalist B readily supplied at an easy rate. 1 was a specious and very plausible argu® e9 • But in the first place he would reply that D* question was one of obtaining runs, stock. When the emigrant arriving small capita], or the industrious work> n B tier desirous of investing his savings m most profitable way, came to ask f° r 9 A what use would it be to tell him that s was cheap. It was land he would stan need of, and all the land would be 1 > hands of a few great capitalists. was it true that stock would sooner . 3 cheap -by letting the land go in g rca

|o a few capitalists ? He asked hon. members with what view did these latter introduce fstock ? Certainly not to make it cheap. sWould not their object be to introduce so fniuch, and let it increase, so far as to enable ahem to supply and to command the market Jhere; to keep the price not as low as possigble, but only so low as to exclude the comjpetition of fresh importers from Australia, nlnd would it not be much more easy for a Ifew large owners to combine to keep up the |price, than for a great many owners of moderate sized flocks ? Would not these latter Kiecessarily compete with each other, and so Bower the price so much the sooner? There could be no doubt of it. Another objection to his proposal was found in the difficulty of preventing the evasion of the regulation, by »wners who might for that purpose divide lheir flocks, make over portions to other persons, or spread them about, different places, £n<l apply for runs for them as for separate Mocks. He could not pretend to enumerate Sr foresee the various shifts that might be resorted to. But he thought by giving amHle powers to the Crown Commissioners, these Might be sufficiently met and frustrated. He Mad prepared another clause for this purpose which he would now read—

| In case of any’ questionsarising (in connection rith the calculation of increase to be allowed hr) as to the proprietorship of stock, division If runs, or of flocks or herds by the same proprietor, distances within which any proprietor s to be considered entitled to the benefits of he allowance aforesaid in respect of different jocks or herds, or as to any mode whatever by irbich the above regulations may be attempted p be evaded, or the benefits thereof unduly jbtained, the Commissioner shall have fullpower o decide them in such manner as may most Effectually carry out the said regulation in the rue spirit and meaning thereof. Ln hon. member had just suggested to him to iropose a maximum of acreage to be granted br a run. But he thought the graduated icale was preferable, because in fact it was huch.more liberal to the large owner, tinier it no absolute limit in all cases was put jpon the land he might obtain. When there las no competition for it, he might secure idditional tracts foi the increase of each suctesssive couple of years. It was only when some other owner required the adjoining land that he would be restricted. It was in presenting him from keeping others out, not from enjoying as much as possible of land not {cmpeted for, that the proposed system would fork well. It was in fact putting the onus H first moving to more remote districts, and »f forming new stations, upon the large Ipitalist instead of the small one. He |ould repeat that it was the bounden duty if the Council to take care that the advances of using the Crown lands should be distributed among as many of the public as fossible, not monopolized by a few. They »d heard of persons intending to come from be neighbouring colonies, who were only jaiting to hear if liberal regulations had been |tablished. It was a great thing to get the |untry peopled as fast as possible. But for i’s part he wished New Zealand to enjoy a yputation in those colonies for being a county most favourable for small capitalists, even bough at the expense of its credit with the Fge capitalists. He would only remind the (ouncil further that this regulation would not ® a law, but that the Government would

|ave power to rescind it without waiting for Mother session of Council, should it be found t'® work badly. It was therefore an experiEfient which might at any time be stopped, E|it which was surely worth a trial. He r would therefore move— ' I lhat this Council recommend that the followI®-' clause do form part of the rules and regulaB®>ns for depasturing cattle on waste lands;— ■provided always, that in estimating the suffi- ■ tV s . to 9 k f° r an y sheep run applied for, Bge Commissioner shall make allowance for naf increase according to the following scale : E g an y No. up to 1,000 increase, to be allowed for 5 years pg? •• .. from 1,000 to 5,000 .. .. .. 4 .. •• .. from 5,000t0 10,000 3 .. HH* •• •• 10,000 and upwards,, .. .. ». 2 .. IH Sir George Grey thought the principle protP°sed fey t be Colonjgl Secretary was unobjecR on able, as he did not consider it necessary for |^ e holder of a run to take out his lease until ■pessed upon. He might apply each year, and ■ fof 1 ’ ncrease b ’ s s heep on fresh land K which he could get a fourteen years lease. Bk rorn day the applicant is put on his land Bka rent ’ but the period of claiming his i e , Wou ld depend on himself. ■lt ne C°‘ on ’ a i Secretary thought such an ar- ■ m^- erneilt wou^d he better than prescribing a ■ Aft Kilis er . w observations from Mr. Cautley I committee adjourned. E .. canterbury association. »for th' CaUt ? ey ® ave not * ce he would move l|| n add a PP°' ntinent °f a committee to prepare llhnsio/nV* A° - he J Cr ° Wn ° n the P rc P osed ex - B ss ociati o n le ’r dlSlnCt the Canterbur y Brought - irom Previous discussions he Bad attem evi .^ ent tbe Canterbury Association ® et, letnen^. te L an encroac hment on another Hires* - ’ , should prefer seeing the adpared ' y the united wisdom and

judgment of three or four members than that so delicate a matter should be undertaken by himself.

Sir George Grey considered the best plan would be to agiee to an address in general terms, praying that no privileges should be granted to Associations which were not equally granted to all classes of her Majesty’s subjects. As an illustration of the principle which was at present in operation in the Canterbury settlement, if it were supposed that the block of land of that Association was to be extended in such a way as to embrace two hundred families who had been previously settled in the district then, as it must be admitted that it was not an extravagant supposition that a hard working industrious man should wish to increase his property to the extent of fifty actes, if the whole number were to purchase 10,000 acres they would have to pay a tax of £lO,OOO, for the endowment of a church to which they might not belong. It appeared very hard that a law should be suddenly made to this effect, that a settler could not increase his property without being subject to the operation of an indirect tax of this kind. If something were demanded in the first instance, if an Association were required first to pay for its land, in the same manner as the rest of her Majesty s subjects, a guarantee would be given that they would not ask for more than they could use. It appeared a hard case because a body of men possessed powerful influence, that they should be able to impose restrictions on the rest of her Majesty’s subjects to obtain advantages which were not accorded to them. Or toplace the argument in another shape, if it were supposed a working man could lay by £2O a year for the purchase of land, the effect of the regulation complained of was to say, you shall not become a proprietor of such a property as every man might fairly look to acquire, until you have worked two years and a half for a church to which you may not belong. It would be necessary that one uniform principle should be adopted to enable persons with confidence and certainty to embark capital in New Zealand.

1 he Colonial Treasurer thought that, apart from the consideration of the good or evil to that settlement, there was quite evidence enough before the Council to induce them to try to prevent the extension of this principle. From the mere working of the New Zealand Company for ten years immense difficulty had arisen, and the formation of other Associations with such privileges would increase these difficulties. He thought it would be better to address the Crown against the principle generally. Sir George Grey said the Crown lands should be disposed ot under one uniform system to all classes of Her Majesty’s subjects. If the object of an Association were to buy a million of acres, they would be able, under such a system, to do so, and then would be at liberty to do what they pleased with their own private property, but this was not the case at present. Her Majesty had formerly given up her power over all lands in the Australian colonies, and an act of Parliament had been passed, which declared that henceforward land in these colonies should be disposed of on one uniform system, and on equal terms to all persons. An act had subsequently been passed for the purpose of enabling the New Zealand Company to arrange their affairs, which repealed the Australian Lands Act as far as related to New Zealand; the effect of this repeal was that the Crown was again at liberty to make what arrangements it pleased with regard to Crown lands in New Zealand; and advantage was taken of that repeal to have upwards of two million and a half acres of land placed at the disposal of the Association, He wished to see the Council confine themselves to one principle, to the recognition, as a great national principle, of the establishment of one uniform system in the disposal of the waste lands of the Crown, and to the existence of an equal right in all Her Majesty’s subjects to obtain land under that system. He agreed with a previous speaker that they should do every thing in their power to promote the interest of the Canterbury settlers, but this Council might think it incumbent oii them to address the Crown, praying that land should, for the future, be disposed of on one uniform system, to make it perfectly certain that no indirect tax should be imposed on any classes of Her Majesty’s subjects, that no large districts should be closed against their enterprise, and to secure to all an equal right in the purchase of land. Mr. Bell thought it would be expedient to examine the various ways that land had been disposed of in this colony. There was no difficulty in coming to an opinion on the profuse grant to the Canterbury Association, but he should prefer entering into the more extended question. After some further discussion

Sir George Grey said he was afraid, unless a stopwereput to persons in England acquiring tracts of land, to try experiments on, without

being required in the first instance to purchase suchlands, there would be no land to try a uniform system upon. Her Majesty had formerly used most gracious and touching expressions on the subject, and wished to assist these colonies in every way. Only yesterday he (Sir George) had accidentally heard of a New Association to be formed, and that application had been made to the Secretary of State for a tract of land as compensation to certain absentees. There was already a debt of £268,000 owing from the colony to the New Zealand Company, 360,000 acres were admitted to be due to their land purchasers, and this additional compensation was proposed to certain absentees. It was desirable to revert to the former plan which would be acting in conformity with the Royal pleasure. No argument was necessary in England to establish this, as the whole principle was long since admitted by the most eminent men of all narties. In answer to a few observations by the Attorney General of New Zealand, Sir George Grey said at the present moment this feeling, which had never existed before, had grown to this height, that an Agent of a private Association should have the power to send home a recommendation that a large tract of land should be taken from her Majesty’s subjects, instead of sending it through the Governor, who could then have laid it before this Council for their information, and have taken the opinion of the colonists upon it. The first time he received officially a copy of the act, giving the Canterbury Association the entire control over their present large block of land, was in the Statutes at large. He had received a copy privately from an hon. member.

In reply to some observations of Mr. Cautley on the liberal provisions made by the Nelson settlers for administering their Trust Funds, His Excellency caused some merriment by asking the hon. member, as a proof of the good working of the system he had described in such glowing terms, to inform the Council when these Trust funds were paid, and bow they were applied ; and when the interest had been paid, and who had received it.

A » I \ 111 — * * ' _ T * n mi. gave uOiiCc lie WOUiu DQOve for A return in detail of the compensation granted by the New Zealand Company to its purchasers ; distinguishing the modes in which such compensation has been given, and whether by land scrip or otherwise; the total amount given to absentees and residents respectively; and the name of each purchaser, with the amount originally paid by him to the Company, the amount of compensation granted to him, and the total number of acres included in his original purchase and compensation together. The Council then adjourned.

Wednesday, July 2.

DUTIES OF CUSTOMS BILL. Mr. Hickson presented a memorial from merchants and others in Wellington, praying that the spirits now in bond be allowed to be taken out of bond, during the next month, at a duty of ss. per gallon, and that all spirits imported after the passing of the bill be subject to the higher rate of duty. The Council then went into committee on Duties of Customs Bill. After some discussion it was understood the bill would not come into operation until a month after it was passed. Mr. Hickson, adverting to the previous discussion on the duty on flour, said that the duty was retained under the impression of protecting the agricultural interest, but he would shew that the agricultural interest received ample protection in the freight and other charges on flour from the Australian colonies. The hon. member stated these charges to amount to £4:2:6 per ton of flour, exclusive of damage by sea water. Under these circumstances he would move for a total repeal of the duty. Motion seconded by Col. M'Cleverty. Mr. Cautley moved bis former amendment for the remission of duty for one year only, as he considered it would be unwise to adopt a permanent remission of duty on an article of such general consumption, and on which the duty was so easily collected. Mr. Hickson said the hon. member appeared to consider Nelson the whole of New Zealand ; he bad advocated the repeal of duty on tobacco for sheep-washing lor Nelson; he had also proposed the repeal of duty on agricultural implements for Nelson ; but he wished to continue the duty on flour, because Nelson does not import flour. Mr. Cautley considered himself rather unfairly attacked. He would gladly see ten times as'.much cultivation in the other settlements as existed at the present time. He should never be ashamed to watch over and promote the interests of Nelson in this or any other Council of which he had the honor to be member. The committee divided on Mr. Hickson’s motion, and the numbers being equal, the final decision of the question was postponed to the following day, the Governor declining to vote,, The committee then adjourned.

MARRIAGE AMENDMENT ORDINANCE. The Council went into committee on this bill. The amendment proposed on the three first clauses having been withdrawn, the clauses were agreed to ; the committee then adjourned, and the report was brought up and adopted. INTERPRETATION ORDINANCE. The Attorney General of New Munster moved the third reading of the Interpretation Ordinance. The Colonial Treasurer said that, previous to the reading of the bill, he would mention that a member of the House of Commons had moved for the repeal of a similar act in England as constantly intefering with the proceedings of the House, and gave as an illustration where the word “ male” was enacted to include those of the opposite sex. Sir George Grey referred the point to the two Attorneys General, who did not appear to consider the objection a serious one. The bill was accordingly read a third time and passed. ADDRESS TO THE CROWN. Mr. Cautley said that, seeing an attempt had been made by the Canterbury Association to encroach bn the Nelson settlement, he felt it incumbent on him to resist this encroachment ; leaving it, therefore, to another member to move a general address, he would move ".he following resolution : —- That this Council having reason to believe that it is the intention of the Canterbury Association to endeavour to obtain an extension of the limits of their present territory, a committee be appointed to report whether, looking to the principles on which the Association has been founded, and the position of the land adjoining to that territory, such extension would tend to promote the interests of the whole colony, in order that, if they be of a contrary opinion, an address to the Crown should be prepared by them to that effect, and should be submitted for the consideration of the Council on a future occasion : and that the committee do consist of the Hon. Colonial Secretary of New Munster, Mr. Bell, Mr. Cautley, Mr. Hickson. The motion was seconded by Mr. Hickson. The Colonial Treasurer thought it would be better the address should be framed on general grounds, as otherwise it might appear as if directed against the Canterbury Association, rather than against the principle of that Association to which their objections applied.

Mr. Dillon said a positive evil was inflicted by this encroachment. He believed the settlers atNelson were unanimously opposed toil. At Akaroa there were two hundred Roman Catholic families living there before the formation of the Canterbury settlement; these persons had not been consulted in any of the arrangements that were made, and would have to pay £1 to the Anglican church for every acre of land they purchased. The Colonial Secretary of'New Munster proposed that there should be two separate addresses, one referring to the peculiar injury caused by the operation of the principle complained of, the other on geueral grounds, he would therefore move—mat an address be presented to Her Majesty praying that, in order to enable the settlers of New Zealand to engage with security and confidence in the various pursuits connected with the occupation of land, Her Majesty will, in accordance with the course so beneficially followed by the Crown on a former occasion, in sanctioning the enactment by Parliament of the Australian Waste Lands Act, be graciously pleased to direct the adoption of some one simple and uniform system for the original disposal, in the first instance, ofwaste lands by the Crown, whether to individuals or associations, formed for the purpose of founding settlements on peculiar systems, with diverse modes of disposing subsequently of such lands, and to cause such uniform system to be rigidly adhered to for the future.

Sir George Grey said one difficulty presented itself to the motion in its present form, that the Canterbury Association was not the only Association. Some time ago a gentleman had informed him the Otago Association might obtain a charter if they pleased, he had also heard the absentees were applying for a large tract of land. If they waited until they received detailed information on the subject they would wait until the mischief was done. These Associations acted as if the people and the Government of New Zealand were not interested in the matter; no information was afforded, and they corresponded with their Agents as so many independent Governments. Both her Majesty and her Majesty’s advisers, in conlet ring these privileges, believed they were consulting the wishes of her Majesty’s subjects, and if they were opposed to such a system they should state their sentiments. A representation had already been.made upon behalf of the Nelson settlers, to the Governor which bad gone home. ;; The Council then divided on Mr. Cduilcy’w motion. In favor of the motion 7 ; against' it 6—Carried. The Colonial Secretary’s motion was adopted and he was requested to prepare the address. On the motion of the Attorney General of New Zealand the Municipal Elective Franchise Bill was read a third time and passed. The Council then adjourned.

Thursday, July 3, 1851. DUTIES OF CUSTOMS BILL. On the motion of Mr. Hickson the Council went into committee on Customs bill. Mr. Hickson moved, as an amendment, that the duty on flour be permanently taken off. Mr. Cautley opposed the motion, and in answer to the bon, member’s argument on a former occasion that the freight and charges on flour from the Australian colonies amounted to a protective duty, observed that it was well Known the freight from one settlement to another was as expensive as the freight from Sydney. The Collector of Customs said this was not a question of freight or of value, but the object being to tax as few articles as possible for the purpose of raising a revenue, the question was what articles should be taxed. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster said the duty on flour was easily collected and, being an article of general consumption, pressed more equally on all classes than any other duty. Formerly when duties were altogether removed, the revenue was thrown away. In repealing the duty on tobacco for sheep washing, the Council relieved an article necessary for production. Mr. Bell said this was a tax on one of the necessaries of life and pressed upon the poorer classes. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster wished to know who were the poorer classes? Such ah argument mightbe applicable in an old country, but he did not believe there was such a class here. Tobacco, on which the duty was remitted for sheep washing, was an ingredient required to assist in the production of the most valuable export in the colony. The committee then divided. For Mr. Hickson’s amendment 6•, against it 5 ; amendment carried. The Collector of Customs proposed a further amendment on the repeal of the duties on all articles of corn, meal, and flour, which was lost. Mr. Bell wished, as they had reversed the decision they had made a fortnight ago by repealing the duty on flour, they would reconsider the duty on another article. He would propose an additional duty of one shilling a gallon on spirits to make up for the loss of revenue by the repeal of the duty on flour, a loss which would be more considerable as population increased. He thought if the duty were taken off a necessary of life, it would be right to make good the deficiency by imposing it on a luxury, especially as the duty was removed from an article which was least likely to be smuggled. Mr. Hickson could assure the Council if the duty on spirits were raised to seven shillings a gallon, the amount of duty would be less than was received at present. The committee divided. For the amendment 5 ; against it 7. Amendment negatived. The committee then adjourned and report was brought up. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster gave notice he would move, at the next meeting, that the Naturalization Ordinance be considered in committee. The Attorney General of New Zealand gave notice he would move the following amendment on Naturalization Ordinance And whereas there are certain other persons resident at _ _ whom it is expedient to relieve irom the {liabilities to which aliens are by law subject, but whose names and description have n °* be en accurately ascertained. Be it enacted that all and singular, the persons who shall be declared to come within the operation of this Ordinance, by any Proclamation to be issued by the Governor-in-Chief, shall be deemed and taken within the Islands of New Zealand to be natural born subjects of her Majesty, as fully to all intents and purposes as if their names had respectively been inserted in the schedule hereunto annexed. Mr. Diilon moved for certain returns connected with New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill. The Collector of Customs said he hoped, when the new scale of duties came into operation, that all parties would be treated alike; if a difference was to be made in favor of those who had spirits in bond, an undue advantage would be given to mercantile houses here. He thought if a higher rate of duty were imposed, it should be imposed at once, whether on spirits now in bond or on fresh importations.

Mr. Bell thought the postponement of a month, in imposing the additional duty on spirits, would occasion a considerable loss to the revenue. Mr. Hickson said that it would make very little difference to the revenue whether the increased duty came into operation in a few days or a month as, in the interval however short, persons would raise money to take spirits out of bond. The Collector of Customs moved the bill be recommitted ; seconded by Mr. Bell. The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand was of opinion, as the intention of the legislature was, known in this settlement, the advantage of a, previous notice should be given to the other settlements.

Mr. Bell thought there were fair grounds for recommitting the bill, as during the absence of the Collector of Customs two important previous decisions of the committee were reversed. Ihe Collector of Customs, when he first proposed a date at which the bill should come into operation, had no idea any difference would be made between goods in bond and those imported. Col. M'Cleverty was of opinion the mercantile interest would gain by any delay in imposing the higher duty at the expense of the revenue, as they would obtain the spirits st the lower duty and charge the additional shilling a gallon to their customers. He referred to the Customs Ordinance of 1846, the last clause of which enacted that the Ordinance should come into operation at Auckland the day following the passing thereof, and at every other port of entry within the colony the day next following the receipt of a copy thereof by the principal officer of Customs of such port, and thought the Council should follow the example of their predecessors. Sir George Grey desired, after what bad passed, to see the bill recommitted, to obtain further information on the subject. In the first place, the present bill was intended to be a permanent measure, and would form the basis of considerable future modifications in the tariff. The intention was hereafter to take the duty off many articles, when the experience of the present system had shewn from the duty on which articles a sufficient revenue could be raised, so as to press the least on the community. It was desirable, therefore, that the measure should be brought into operation in such a manner as to do the greatest good, and to interfere least with existing interests. He apprehended if the bill were not brought into operation for a month, the spirits would sell at the same price ; if be were to allow that two years’ consumption of spirits would be taken out of bond, there would be a considerable loss arising from loss of interest, expense of store-room, and other causes, so that it was not certain that an additional duty of one shilling per gallon would be so great an inducement, as to cause so large a stock to be taken out of bond as was supposed, but these were questions on which he desired to be informed. The bill was then recommitted. Mr. Bell was of opinion that the bill should come into operation the day after its passing, in ellington, and at all other ports of entry in the colony the day after it was received. If the bill was an improvement on the former one it could not too soon come into operation, and he thought it advisable that the Council should come to a final vote on the subject, and bring the measure into operation.

Mr. Hickson observed that no alteration had been made in the duty on tobacco, except that used for sheepwashing. The increased duties on wines would considerably exceed what had previously been collected. Wine had been entered for duty at the average value of £5 the quarter-cask, which at ten per cent, produced a duty of 10s. A quartercask contained 26 gallons, and, at the rate fixed by this Act of Is. 6d. per gallon, would pay a duty of 395. After some further discussion Sir George Grey said there were several points that had not been touched upon. If the amount of spirits in bond were supposed to be 5,000 gallons, the total profit in saving the additional duty of one shilling per gallon would amount to £250 ; to obtain that a risk would be incurred of £1,250. the amount of duty paid at ss. per gallon ; for if any accident occurred on spirits in bond, occasioning •oss, the duty was not charged on the spirits so lost ; but if any accident occurred to them out of bond, the whole duty was lost. There, was also to be considered the loss of interest on the money paid for duty ; again the merchant could hardly hope to realize the whole of the additional duty as his profit, as from the effect of competition the profit would be divided among several persons, and to make that small profit great risk would be incurred. He thought, therefore, the profit that might be made was from these causes overestimated as were consequently the objections against allowing the bill to come into operation after the proposed delay. Mr. Bell said the spirits now in bond in this settlement were estimated not to exceed ten weeks consumption ; taking into account the discount on the money required for the payment of duties, it would still leave; a considerable profit to take the spirits out of bond at the lower rate of duty. The Lieutenant Governor was in favor of passing the bill as printed for two reasons, first, that even if the revenue should suffer by , spirits being taken out of bond at the lower rate of duty, it would be better to fall back on the general increase of revenue produced by the alterations now made ; and secondly he thought that due notice should be given to the public of so important an alteration.

The committee then divided on the amendment. There were in favor of the immediate operation of the increased duty on spirits 10; against it 3 —carried. The committee adjourned, and the report with the alterations was brought up and adopted. The Collector of Customs moved that the standing orders be suspended, and that the bill be read a third time. Mr. Hickson moved that the Council be adjourned, as he considered the suspension of the standing orders to be an extraordinary proceeding. The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand seconded Mr. Hickson’s amendment, and considered it unseemly and unusual that the bill should be passed with such precipitancy. Mr. Hickson could not conceive what emergency existed for requiring such haste in passing the bill. Mr. Bell said it was necessary to prevent the operation of the bill being frustrated, he for one should say let it be done. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster observed that all the reasons which apply for the delay of one month apply for one day. Unless bon. members wished to frustrate what was done they would let the bill be passed at once. Sir George Grey objected to the proposed course for the following reason. As the bill stood yesterday, it was not intended to come into operation lor several days, the 7th July having been fixed as the period for its coming into force. That kind of warning had been given, when a memorial was presented to the Council asking for further delay ; and on the receipt of the memorial an additional delay of one month was granted. That resolution was now rescinded, and it was proposed to pass the bill immediately. The memorialists may complain of having been thrown off their guard by yesterday’s proceedings and though, strictly speaking, they had no light, they might with some show of justice complain they had not received sufficient warning. He was not quite satisfied these sudden changes were judicious, and thought the proceedings of the Legislature should carry with them a certain degree of weight from the deliberate manner in which they were conducted. He should therefore much prefer the Council would allow these alterations to be printed, and that the bill should be passed to morrow, instead of hurrying it through the Council in the manner now proposed. The Committee then divided. For the suspension of the standing orders—9; against it—4. Mr. Hickson said the proceedings had taken such an extraordinary turn that he must decline to take further charge of the bill. The Collector of Customs moved the third reading of the bill, which was seconded by Mr. Bell, and the bill was read a third time and passed. The Attorney General of New Zealand gave notice he would, at the next sitting, move the third reading of the Provincial Councils Bill. The Council then adjourned to Tuesday.

Copy of a Despatch from Governor Grey to Earl Grey. Government House, Auckland, November 27, 1849. (Received April 8. 1850.) My Lord. I only yesterday received your Lordship’s confidential Despatch of the 16th July last, informing me that, in the judgment of Her Majesty’s Government, it had become proper and practicable to adapt the military establishment of New Zealand to the altered and improved general condition of the colony, and acquainting me that, in order to give effect to those views, it was proposed to reduce the establishment in New Zealand to two regiments, composed of six companies of 90 men each, which would make the strength of each regiment 540 men, and the total force serving in these islands about 1,080 rank and file. F"7 ™ y D es P atch No. 145, military, of thei 14th October last, your Lordship will find that your intentions have already been anticipated by me to one-half of the proposed extent ; and that I had already SS L,L J the adoption of the means your Lordship proposes to make use o f for ringing about a reduction in the force servthfs • [he f What ’ 10 effeCt ’ haS been done is !o’ tbe f ° rce . servi ”g h ere consisted of about 1,800 men; aoout 300 of this number are immedmtely to be permitted to purchase their the force will thus be reduced to about 1,500 men. Your Lordship however intends to have it reduced to about 1,080 men ; it will therefore be re° quisite to make a further reduction of 420 wi h and L^ lnk thatthat number of men ill be enabled to purchase their discharges further period of about from 12 to § lB months, which would make the whole numcharges 720 • W 10 <i P urc h as ed their discharges 720 , and, assuming the average sum

paid by each man for his the total amount so paid would I . 3 -. Your Lor dship’ 8 intentions I ject being so precisely j n ’ °, n %| what had been anticipated hem 41 tinueto act as heretofore re ea , ;• duction of the force in New Ze/. S tioning the purchase of their dilM such non-commissioned officers ’ ssl l apply for them, until your further 2 N reach me. IQstru ctioiJ 4. I beg, however, to p o i nt I Lordship that I think it in ever v ° Ut M sirable, not only to render the resT 81 * 1 * which is to serve in New Zealand “ Ced M as possible, but also to look forward’ e ® ci 'J further reduction of the military f tOa|| 5 regiment of 540 rank and fifo. ° rc . e M means could these objects be ’ so ™ H and certainly attained as by the estab??! of steam communication between th ■ settlements in New Zealand: which has been most seriously’feit d,,’ last year and a-half, during which H time there has been no armed steamed coasts. W

5. I think, therefore, that in makiw | proposed large reduction in the mili tatT k I serving in this colony, and conseq ue J I the military expenditure here, it would? | wise measure of precaution, and ultimate!,; l deed of very great economy, for Parlia I to sanction the expenditure of a serial I annually to defray a portion of the J of a steamer to run between the several! tlements. The probable additional J would be required for this purpose would! calculating on the most liberal basis £3,000 per annum. ’ | 6. The grounds on which this calculj is based are as follows : from the enclosj m Lord Stanley’s Despatch to my predecej No. 32 of the 17th August 1844, itapnJ that the total average cost of Her MajesJil steamvessel PbZcano for the three 1842, and 1843 was £6,248 per'annum J assume that this is an under estimate, and J it would be safe to calculate the average J of a steamer of the size of the Fo/cJ 8,000 per annum. ’ i To meet this sum of £B,OOO per and the following funds would be available aid ally ’ | £2,000, the amount annually voted i Parliament for the colonial brig. £2,000, the amount set apart by the Pn vinces from their revenues,is bonus for the establishment steam communication. £l,OOO, the probable amount whichwct be realized by the carriage ofp sengers and goods. £3,000, deficiency to be provided for.

£B,OOO. Leaving a deficiency of £3,000 to be annnt provided for by Parliament in addition toil present vote: and, as a justification of tk additional expenditure, I think it coolli shown that more than that amount woulfft at once saved by the reduction that then be made in the naval expenditure, si by the saving that would be fected in the cost of the transport of troop and the passages of officers ; whilst, after very few years of such rapid communicatitf from settlement to settlement, so great i change would be wrought in the country th one regiment of 540 men would be quite il 1 equate to its requirements. 7. Should your Lordship see fit to sancwthis arrangement, then, in conformity® the terms of the letter from the Secretary l the Admiralty to Mr. Hope, of the 13tl>August, 1844, a small steamer of the pr>' posed size could be sent out to New Zeals by the Admiralty, under the command of» officer and manned by a crew who could 1 attached to one of Her Majesty’s vessels < these coasts, and who, having handed over* steamer to the colonial Government,® I '' join their vessel, the steamer being then ta charge of by the Government in the sa ffie nlS ' ner as the colonial brig now is. 8. I feel quite satisfied that, shou f Lordship see fit to sanction this arrangerntj a great saving would be speedily eff eCie the prosperity of this country more , ce ( [ J promoted than by any other means tuaGbe adopted. I have, &c., (Signed) The Right Hon. Earl Grey, &c. &c. &c.