LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 615, 25 June 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

Thursday, June 19, 1851, After prayers, the Colonial Secretary New Munster presented a petition froni t | Licensed Victuallers’ Society in Wellin 6 complaining of the increase of duty onSpU*’ ami of die defective state of the preseinp’ censing Ordinance. On the motion of Mr. Hickson the Cou n t cil went into committee on Customs Bill" I when the additions to the Schedule propcsed by the Collector of Customs were considered On a duty of 7s. per cwt. on printing pa J being proposed 1 r Sir George Grey stated an application had been made to the Government by the Mis sionary bodies for the admission of printin? paper duty free. Large quantities of pape f were used by them in printing books in the native language for missionary purposes, and on one occasion as much as £GO had’been paid by them in duty. It was therefore deserving the consideration of the Council whether printing paper ought not to be admitted free of duty. From the exertions that were making by the Missionary bodies New Zealand was becoming the centre of their operations, and this was a tax on the diffusion of knowledge affecting the highest interests of the human race, He thought every encouragement should be given to New Zealand being made the centre of Missionary operations, and to render it the metropolis of the -islands nf the -South Seas. The several items having been gone through, the Bill was ordered to be printed and recommitted.

A discussion arose on a motion by Mr, Hickson that flour, wheat, meal and bread stuffs be admitted duty free. The hon. member pressed his motion on the ground of the recent increase of the duty on spirits, which would more than compensate for the deficiency occasioned by the remission of duty, and on the advance in flour which would take place in the neighbouring colonies, on which we were dependent for supplies, consequent on the discovery of gold in New South Wales. Mr. Cautley proposed as an amendment that the duty be remitted for one year. Conncil divided. For the amendment 9, againstil4. Amendment carried. Mr. Hickson’s motion for the permanent abolition of the duty was then put when there were for the motion G, against it 8, motion lost. A motion was made by the honorable C. Dillon to increase the duty on wine to 3s. per gallon in casks, and to Bs. per doz. of two gallons. The committee divided. For the amendment —4, against it 10, amendment lost. Committee then adjourned,

NEW ZEALAND COMPANY’S LAND CLAIMANTS BILL. On the motion of Captain Smith the Council went into committee on this Bill. The chief discussion arose on the amendment of Mr. Cautley, that the surplus, if any, of the fee of £1 for each title to land be spent in immigration. Sir George Grey said it was very difficult for the Government to do anything with tl |e proposal in its present form, as it would bo extremely difficult to arrive at the proportion of expense incurred, by the surveys necessary for preparing the Grants. To enable tbe Government to put persons in possession ol their land certain expenses must be incurreui he thought it was necessary by all means 1° give persons a clear and indefeasible title t® their lands with the least possible delay, on it could afterwards be determined whether these expenses should be defrayed by D® Company out of the £208,000 to be paid to them or should be borne by the Governffl ent ’ The Committee then adjourned. Several notices of motion were given a n ine Council adjourned.

Friday, June 20. NEW ZEALAND COMPANY’S LAND CLAIM* 1 * B!LL. . After Prayers the consideration o ’ New Zealand Company’s Land Clatnw Bill was resumed in Committee,

ff After some discussion it was arranged Bjiat lion, members should move the amendffioents on this bill of which they had given Notice, and state their reasons in support of jheir amendments, and that those members Opposed to them, should state their objections without coming to a division on them, Krhen the bill might be allowed to stand Stiver for a few days. I The Colonial Secretary of New Munster moved the following amendments :— I Where the Commissioner shall have adjudicated upon any adverse claim, or upon any disluted boundary, or upon any claims arising out gf any contract for compensation with the late jfew Zealand Company, the party grieved by inch adjudication may appeal to a Judge of the Supreme Court, who shall decide upon such llaims summarily, and who shall have power to amend, revise or confirm such Commissioner's report, or make such other order or report as to such Judge shall seem meet accord|ig to the equity and justice of the case, and according to the true intent and meaning of |his Ordinance. 3 It shall also be lawful for any Commissioner, Bl case he shall have any doubt respecting any Hisputed claim or disputed boundary or other■ise. at the request of either party, and at such Commissioner’s discretion, to submit a case for opinion of a Judge of the Supreme Court, gather generally upon the whole case, or conHned to such point respecting which such doubt small have arisen, whereupon such Judge shall -Certify to such Commissioner his opinion according to the true intent and meaning of this Ordinance. a It shall also be lawful for any Commissioner in all cases, whether upon claims disputed or ;got, and without the request of the claimants »r of either party, to submit a like case to a ffiidge of the Supreme Court for such CommisBoner’s own guidance, and such Judge shall thereupon certify in the manner hereinbefore Provided. g| In all cases submitted to a Judge of the Su®eme Court as well as in all cases of appeal to Such Judge, it shall be lawful to such Judge to ||ear and decide the case without argument by Counsel and without any further evidence than ®iat which shall have been submitted to such commissioner, but if the parties shall desire to be heard by Counsel, it shall be lawful for such Sndge, at his discretion, to direct that Counsel be heard, provided that no costs be allowed as Between party and party, saving the right of Jie client to have the Attorney’s bill taxed as by law allowed, and provided also that if such flidge shall be of opinion that the equity and justice of the case require other and better evidence than was given before the Commission, ft shall be lawful tor such Judge to require and jennit such evidence to be produced. 0 In any case where land has been mortgaged two or more mortgagees, it shall be lawful for such Judge at his discretion to directan ejectment to be tried.

No fees whatever shall be charged in any appeal or reference to any such Judge. always that nothing herein cons' be deemed in any way to affect any flgbt or prerogative of the Crown, whether exIttcised by her Majesty or his Excellency the governor under and by virtue of his commis®B°n ° r dle Charter of the colony. --Several objections were urged against them by the Attorney General of New Zealand aid or New Munster, both of whom appeared tp concur in the opinion that it was inexpedient and objectionable to refer those claims to the Supreme Court. | The Lieutenant Governor moved as an amendment that the clause authorising the y sue °. 1 scr *P struck out, and said his object in doing so was to bring on a discussion on this subject, as no hon. member had called attention to the considerations it mvolves. Under ordinary circumstances contract would be completed when the (jlaimunt was put in possession of his land, |But this clause went further and affirmed that under some circumstances it mav be desirable to allow land to be exchanged for ?crip. He thought there were some other circumstances to be considered and it miriit be poubted, Ist whether the land thrown up hnght not prove of very little value; 2ndly if a large amount of land were Inrown up, it might not affect the population | some smaller settlements ; and Rtdly whether these exchanges of land for Orip might not materially affect the future EPnd to be derived from the sale of lands. ]>c had no desire to press his amendment, - had simply brought it forward that the question might be raised in order to elicit , le opinions of hon. members, a pause the amendment was secon- | e d by Mr. Hickson. ; 5 The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand c^ause w bich he considered I 0 * t ‘? e most just features of the measure, aptain Smith said he had had the honor setf] COn^UC^n ? th 6 surve y s i n this llm which, owing to the urgency of &ani/ ett erS ’ Werc carried on in the most L Wa y> and sufficient facilities could not, the be affordcdof of deiicn Ure country sections from the ? h? atUr< ; forest. He therefore hospd ,v. ° n 1 iat and other grounds the pro--1 o. eas ure to be an equitable one. rcult^n?! Gre y felt considerable diffiI on thio ° . course to be pursued by him I^Uothinrr'°] Ccasion » since there was in fact l-Mil e Or ® Council to which he re'iade . a vigorous attack had been ®hew of n' e P llnc, pi e °f the bill, and some I rgumeu used, he might have

been able to defend it, but no discussion had taken place ; all that had been done was to suggest doubts on points which had long since been fully considered. In framing the present bill it was necessary to lay down a general plan for the adjustment of a great difficulty. It was to be borne in mind that the New Zealand Company in their arrangements had proposed something very different from merely giving land to their purchasers ; each of their settlements had been formed on a specific plan, and it was necessary that this plan should be carried out to give value to the land. For example, at Nelson the purchaser had not only bought land, but was also entitled to other advantages, he was entitled to certain rights of commonage, which it was proposed to sweep away, and he was therefore entitled to compensation. But he would go a great deal further. He (Sir George) considered the colony in a critical state at the present time ; in addition to the natural obstacles which separated the different settlements, artificial obstacles had been created which interfered still further to separate them. He remembered, in cases of difficulty, in the earlier stages of the colony, applying to enable a settler of one settlement to exchange his land for land in another, as for instance from Wellington to the Nelson settlement, and he was told that it could not be done, that the different plans <>f the two settlements interfered to prevent it. Now this was in effect to say that in addition to the natural obstacle of Cook’s Strait which interposed between the two settlements, the ingenuity of man had invented further obstacles to keep them apart. He therefore proposed at once to sweep away all those barriers, and to proceed for the future on one uniform plan, and he fully believed such a course would be most conducive to the interests of the colony. An hon. member had explained to them the way in which the earlier surveys had been conducted. It was manifest that in many instances an individual had obtained land that he could not use, and which, inasmuch as it had not been surveyed, had never been really given to him ; his capital was locked up in land which he could not get possession of, and which was comparatively valueless to him, and he had been forced to direct his attention to other pursuits. It was in the power of the Council by this plan to set that capital free, and it was for them to decide whether they would stop short for doubts that had suggested themselves, but which had not been supported by one argument. If the land was valueless to the individual, if he had never seen it, and did not know where it was, it was not fair to say that individual had been put in possession of his land. He (Sir George) thought the proper light in which to regard this question was, that the individual had paid so much money towards founding the settlement, that this money, in effect, had been borrowed from him, and the Council would give this individual back his money, and by enlarging his capital, afford him the means of extending his business, and such a course would be useful to the settlers by freeing money which, being locked up, was of no use to the public. He (Sir George) denied that such a course would destroy the land fund. It would enable a man to go to fresh districts, and in a few years with improved means to have the power of purchasing more land. But it had been said that if a person were allowed to go to new districts, that he would be enriched by obtaining the most valuable land. He (Sir George) would say for God’s sake let him go, to shut him out would be to pursue a policy at once selfish and ruinous to the colony. If, in consequence of money obtained from these individuals, these districts should be opened, why should the the Council hesitate to do it. Instead of persevering in the present restrictions let us have no such word as settlement, let New Zealand for the future be one colony. If a valuable district were discovered it was said that scrip would be used to purchase land, but he would ask if the district were now open to purchasers, if there was sufficient wealth in the country to purchase it with cash; when however the individuals who purchased such districts with scrip had acquired sufficient wealth, they would then come back and purchase land in the vicinity of towns at an increased price, and thus create a land fund. It had been asserted that if the Company’s scrip were exchanged for Government scrip then fertile districts would be bought up with it, and this would have a tendency to destroy the land fund, and that it would have the effect of preventing the formation of new settlements. He (Sir George) would rather see the settlers rely on their own efforts, and on the natural progress of the colony, than be dependent on Associations for extraneous aid, and attempt to purchase this aid by keeping those who had founded the colony in a state of poverty, by shutting them out

from those lands which would best reward their industry; and that other persons would be attracted to the colony by the report that they would do well to go there. If the scrip were to be funded, after a short period money instead of scrip would be paid for land, and this would also be equivalent to their enacting that scrip should not be sold below a certain value. The great object appeared to be to prevent the scrip from being depreciated, which he thought would be effected by such a course, and persons who had received scrip would then understand they had received property of a valuable nature. Nothing in the shape of argument had been advanced against the principle sought to be established by this clause, doubts had indeed been suggested, difficulties had been raised, but he had to combat with mere shadows, ghosts through winch tPIO v>n»n n n ...Ul. 4. - - MWW4V4. puoovo YVIIJIUUL producing an impression. The Lieutenant Governor said the object he had proposed had been gained in directing attention to a clause of so much importance, and thought such an explanation as had just been given by his Excellency would be more satisfactory than if the clause had been passed over without explanation. Mr. Hickson said that, seeing the resident .and owners bad in many instances been compelled by their necessities to sell their scrip at prices varying from ss. to 9s. per acre, he thought the absentees ought not to receive scrip at £1 per acre. The absentees were not entitled to much consideration, as the majority of them had bought their land as a commercial speculation. He was of opinion that some inquiry should be made into absentee scrip before their claims were allowed. The hon. member concluded by moving the following amendment to the 14 clause : —•

In case, the said Company shall have contracted with any purchaser for the disposal of a particular section of land in respect of any land order or contract,, and it shall not be in the power of the Government to give possession of ? Uc " * and to the person entitled to the same, it shall be lawful for such person within six months from the time of the passing this Ordinance to select an equal quantity of land in lieu thereof, or in respect of sqch serin as aforesaid. Provided always that all land so to be selected as aforesaid, shall be selected within the boundaries of the respective district to which such land order, contract, or scrip may refer. Sir George Grey observed that the same objection had presented itself to his mind, and it appeared hard to give such persons an increased value. But the Government was obliged to give that number of acres somewhere else ; no loss therefore could accrue to the public. 1 he public had got a certain number of acres they would give less in return. A great plan was to be put in operation for all time; the Government had received certain districts from the New Zealand Company, if the Council allowed individuals to select elsewhere, the question between the Government and the Company could be adjusted afterwards ; the only loss that could occur would be that of some 10,000 acres which the Government might not get from the New Zealand Company, but they would get this question settled cheaply, if purchased at such a cost. Mr. Bell was strongly opposed to Mr. Hickson’s motion and should consider it unjust if the absentees, who had subscribed five or even ten times as much as the residents should receive no compensation. With regard to the motives that influenced them he had reason to know that many bought land from philanthropic motives, and from the interest they felt in promoting colonization. Mr. Hickson admitted the claim of absentees to compensation but considered that those claims should be previously investigated. Many of the most valuable lands in Wellington and its vicinity were held by absentees. He considered it to be the duty of Government to institute an inquiry into their claims previous to granting scrip. Sir George Grey considered there were two great principles to be observed on this subject, the first was that certain tracts had been received from the New Zealand Company by the Government subject to certain contracts. By reopening contracts of this kind they would be entering into unknown liabilities which there would be no means of satisfying, All they could do was to take care that justice should be done. The other principle was that, without questioning the motives of the absentee purchasers, it was the bounden duty of the Legislative Council to set an example that public faith would always be maintained in this country, that they should obtain a reputation for this country that unshaken faith should be maintained with the public creditor. Mr. Bell said that in the case of holders of land at Nelson, who bad paid 30s. per acre for their land, if these persons were allowed scrip according to the amount of money paid, an undue advantage might be taken of the privilege. Several plans had been pronosed to. meet the difficulty, but had failed to do so Methought that where a higher price was pai for the land a portion of which price, as in the

Nelson scheme, was to be devoted-to other objects that the Council should in no case give the means of obtaining more land than what had been given up. Mr. Cautley, in moving his amendment on the subject of scrip, said he regarded the giving of scrip more as a liberal compromise than as an act of strict justice, and that his motion was intended to check, as far as possible, exchanges of land for scrip, the cxcessive amount of which he thought would have a serious effect on the future land fund of the colony. The hon. member spoke, at great length, as to the effect of so large an amount of scrip in injuriously affecting the future immigration to this colony, and preventing the formation of new settlements, without granting exclusive privileges to the associations forming them as a protection from the injurious effects of the scrip. .Sir George Grey observed, in answer to the objection that an individual who had paid thirty shillings an acre will receive more land than he purchased that the bargain was not complete, one party had paid his money while the other part of the agreement remained unfulfilled, and the paity who had not fulfilled it proposed to break through the agreement. There was a further fallacy in stating that a large debt would be entailed on the land * und - lbe G° verDme nt, in undertaking the liabilities of the Company, owed a certain quantity of land, which must be paid in one condition or another, and heavy expenses would be incurred to liquidate the debt by paying in land ; if the Government were obliged now to survey the valueless districts in which many persons had selected lands, a great expense must be incurred, whereas no expenses would be incurred in an unprofitable manner by the proposed plan. To assert that New Zealand can only flourish by the formation of new settlements was a dangerous doctrine • he believed this country would prosper without new settlements. Even if Christchurch had not been formed he believed the settlers in that district would eventually have realized wealth, and that the settlement would have crown in the manner South Australia and Port Phillip had done, while fresh settlers would flock here as to a field to reward their exertions, instead of trusting to a system which discoaraged exertion. He felt certain that the colony would grow prosperous, and he would rather see the settlers rely on their own exertions than depend on the extraneous assistance of persons at home, and of the temporary excitement occasioned by the formation of a new settlement. Mr. Bell withdrew his amendment on 9tb clause and gave notice of an amendment to bar dower. The Committee then adjourned and Council resumed. On the motion of the Attorney General of New Munster, the Debtors Writ of Arrest Bill was read a third time and passed. Several notices of motion were given and the Council then adjourned to Tuesday.