LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 614, 21 June 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday, June 17, 1851. The Council met at the usual hour. After prayers, the Council went into Committee on New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill. The following papers relative to the bill were read, copy of a Despatch from the Lieutenant Governor of New Ulster, letters from C. E. von Alzdorf on Mr. Ibbotson’s claims, and letters from the Resident Agent at Canterbury on the claims of Messrs. Deans, and other persons at Canterbury and Akaroa. Mr. Bell’s amendment on 3rd clause adopted. Some discussion arose on the bon. member’s amendment on the 4th clause, when Sir lieorge Grrey observed the amendment was hardly sufficient to satisfy the end to be attained, he thought it should be specifically enacted that, if the individual did not refer his claim, the Governor should be empowered to do so, when a record would remain of what had been done. In buying land from the Crown the whole transaction might be traced out from the first application, through its subsequent steps, to the issue to the purchaser of a Crown Grant, and he (Sir George) was desirous of having in this case a similar record which might at any time hereafter be referred to. It was then agreed a clause should be framed to the effect proposed by his Excellency.

A discussion arose on the suggestion of the Colonial Secretary of New Munster as to whether it would be desirable for the Governor to appoint three Commissioners to determine appeals in disputed cases, or whether there should be an appeal tothe Supreme Court. It might, he thought, be considered desirable to give the opportunity of referring these cases to the decision of the highest legal authority. Sir George Grey, with reference the latter suggestion, said that the Executive Government could never openly declare the grounds of its decision, and the dissatisfied party generally contrived to raise an impression in his favour. If he was to be a martyr for the public good, in this province, he (Sir George) had no objection to it, but a plan should°be devised by which the Governor could make the ground of his decision public. He should be very glad if the Council would relieve him from the responsibility of deciding on these claims, as although his great object was to do justice, yet where there were two parties it was impossible to give satisfaction to both, and the party who had received an adverssi desision would impute it to political feeling. There was this further aggravation, that while the Judge gave his decision in open Court and stated the grounds on which that decision was founded, the Governor decided in the solitude of his c am er, the reasons of his decision were not known. It was a cruel position to be placed in, after months of anxious consideration, after having taken every care to arrive at a just conclusion, after obtaining the best possible opinions, to be accused of having acted from personal motives. In referring to what had actually occurred at the north his Excellency observed, an individual whose claim had been rejected invariably protested against the decision, he then appealed to the Secretary of State, he pays no fee and ■is subject to no damages for delay ; in hardly

any instance however was the cU; • the Local Government reversed l s lon of instance referred to the party was suff the no expenses, but in an appeal to preme Court some expenses would hcurred. If a disappointed suitor werV? accuse the Judge of being actuated in kdicision by personal motives he wonki 7 laughed at, but this feeling did not • with regard to the Governor. Those object to the decision of the Jud ge n ' Vho carry with them the sympathies of th«> ?? lie, who prefer having their claims de£ in open Court. ue< * The Committee then adjourned. CENSUS BILL. On the motion of the Colonial Secrpf of New Munster the bill in its amend? form was considered in Committee. The several clauses having been disno of, on the consideration of the Schedule Hon. C. Dillon objected to the q as tothe religious denomination of th* — son making the return, and other hon. mem bers concurred in this objection. The Colonial Secretary of New Munstw thought the information important in a sta tistical point of view and also for other reasons, and reminded the Committee of the practice of forming class settlements in New Zealand which rendered such returns of great value.

Sir George Grey was in favour of seeing this question stand for these specific reasons’ A new system of taxation was, it appeared about to be introduced into certain districts of New Zealand, by which a person was to be compelled to pay one pound for each acre of land he purchased to a church he might disapprove of. It was a very hard position lor a settler to be placed in whoperhapshad established himself in the district before the Settlement had been formed, that he must either ruin himself by not extending his property, or pay a tax in support of a church which he disliked. The arguments usedwith reference to this system was that it interfered with no other faith, and injured no other interests ; but he (Sir George) considered it a very hard condition that the wild lands of New Zealand should be subject to such regulations: it appeared now that an attempt was being made to include part of the Nelson district in the Canterbury settlement, and to bring it under the same regulations as to the sale of lands. The New Zealand Company had commenced operations by claiming certain r districts as their private property, and they had therefore an undoubted right to do what they liked with their own estate, and if any Association should buy a million of acres, they clearly would have a right to do what they liked with their own; but in this case it was stated they wished to obtain possession of a certain tract of country without advancing any money for it, and then to prevent all other persons, even those already there, from occupying any farther portion of that country unless they paid laige sums towards objects of which they might not approve. Hon. C. Dillon withdrew his objection, and a strong feeling was expressed by members with regard to this question. Mr. Cautley gave notice of his intention to move

For any documentary information which may be in the possession of the Government on the subject of any proposal to unite the whole or any part of the Nelson settlement to the Canterbury block, or any other information on the subject in the possession of the Executive Government which they may be able to afford. The Lieutenant Governor, pursuant to notice, inquired of his Excellency the Go-vernor-in-Chief his intentions with respect to the Education Ordinance. Sir George Grey said the same difficulty which existed in Europe with regard to this question had not, it appeared, been got rid of in New Zealand. All parties were anxious to see an appropriation from the general revenue for the purpose of education but they could not agree as to the way the money should be applied, and in this respect they shared the common lot of statesmen. He thought his own duty, as Govenor-in-Chief, had been performed in introducing a general measuue in one Province; that measure wss working satisfactorily, and if in New Munster that system was not approved of, the remedy had better be applied by those to whom t 0 measure was distasteful, as any attempt on t 0 part of the General Legislature to inforce it’ plan would only unite all parties to defeat itThe great difficulty was to find proper P e * s ° n ’ to conduct educational establishments. Thro years ago a sum had been set apart by Government for the purpose of Education 1 this Province which was still lying idle int 10 Bank. About the same time a sum had bee given to establish a College at Pnrirua, a0 _ the only persons who had as yet been bene were the sawyers employed in cutting timber, and the Bank. Thirdly, a sUin been appropriated to a College at Besides these sums the Government pat to the Schools at Wellington, and at certain sums were paid to the Bishop °

Zealand, to the Wesleyan schools, and to Mr. Campbel’ B schools. Something therefore had been done, and be was disposed to look hopefully to the future. But he thought he should ict more judiciously by leaving the question jo the decision of the Provincial Council than In attempting to force a new system which might be distasteful to all parties. ' Several notices of motion were given and [he Council then adjourned. Wednesday, June 18, ! The Council met at the usual hour. Prayjrs having been read, f The Attorney-General of New Zealand, pursuant to notice, moved, that an alteration >e made in the rules of the Council, so that t may be no longer necessary for strangers to rithdraw, as of course, on a division of the Council, or of any committee thereof. 1‘ Motion agreed to. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer if New Munster the Valley of the Hutt Fencing Bill was read a second time. PROVINCIAL COUNCILS BILL.

U The Attorney-General of New Zealand, in ffipoving the second reading of the Provincial Councils Bill, said, Sir— pursuant to notice, W have now the honor to move the second Weading of the bill to provide for the establishment of Provincial Legislative Councils, Ind for the election of members to serve herein t and I think it would be almost suficient, to insure for this measure the favorable consideration of the Council, if I were .Bierely to state that it has for its object the .introduction of the representative principle into the Councils of the colony. Before proceeding to offer any observations on the measure itself, I think that it may be desirable Shat 1 should briefly advert to the circumstances under which this Council became possessed of the power to provide for the establishment of Provincial Legislative Councils, as also to the circumstances necessary to be jakept in view by this Council in the exercise gpf the authority so conferred upon them. It will be within the knowledge of the members Shat during the first seveu_years of the existence of the colony, that New Zealand was tone undivided colony, having a single Legislature, consisting of the Governor, the Colo4iial Secretary, the Attorney-General, the . Colonial Treasurer, and the three senior JusI 1 .< ogives vi wins a cave ui new zjuaiauu ; ana mac to such Council full and exclusive power of legislation, for the peace, order, and good of the colony, was confened by Ser Majesty under the authority of an Act of She British Parliament. But, in the year 1846, New Zealand was divided into Provinces, and measures were taken, notonly for giving to each of them a local legislature, but Jor confining, within very narrow limits, the Jurisdiction of the General Assembly of the colony. It was immediately represented, jhowever, by those in authority in this country, that the proposed Constitution was un|suited to the then condition and circumstances d)f the colony ; and the noble Lord at the

|iead of the Colonial Department promptly Jook measures for suspending its operation ; •nd it is but an act of justice *.o Lord Grey declare that, while most men at so great a .’distance would have failed in framing a Constitution suited to the very peculiar condition |and ciicumstances of New Zealand ; few men would have had the good sense, the moral ; .courage, and the right feeling, so readily to : abandon a favorite measure in deference to jibe opinions of the local authorities, During .the suspension of the Constitution of 1846 jthe original Legislative Council was again jcalled into existence, with such additions to gits members as might be made by the Gover-.nor-in-Chief, and to this Council, so constituted, the power was given of framing such ■Legislative Councils for the Provinces as to those having personal knowledge of the colo||R might appear to be suited to the condition ' and circumstances of the country. Almost after this power had been coa|ferred on the colonial legislature, a sudden alarming calamity befell the Province of • New Munster, and it appeared to be desirable that a power of local legislation should, at | once . be established in the Province, in order to meet any emergency which might arise. ; itcumstances did not, at the moment, admit • the delay consequent upon the preparation 0 a »y measure of a permanent character; aa the prompt establishment of some local e gislative authority, appeared to be more important than the particular form or Constitu--1011 w *'ich such temporary authority should | ass urne. An Ordinance was accordingly passi with the least possible delay, simply givng to the Provinces a Legislative Council, - naogoyg t t h e General Council, but with j ts material difference, that the unofficial i tii Cri *r- r ? r ere alwa y s to exceed, in numbers, iarri° <t C ' a^meni^erB, But the time has now I tba/n’j^* w^en h ' s proposed to repeal 1 a r lr,ance and to mature a measure of iw|S r ?. Permanent character, and the bill a , Ve now the honor to move has been rei > on behalf of the Government, with

a view to the introduction of the representative principle into the Provincial Councils of the colony. Now, Sir, in order that a fair estimate may be made of the measure thus submitted for their consideration, it is necessary that the Council should keep clearly in view, not only the limit of their powers, but also the particular circumstances under which those powers must necessarily be exercised. In the first place, then, it is to be remembered, that the power of this Council, great as it undoubtedly is, does not authorise them to provide for the establishment of the entire legislative system of the colony, but only for that of its provincial legislatures. In the second place, that it is not a question for this Council whether New Zealand ought to be divided into Provinces—or whether the Provinces ought to have local legislatures—but, the colony having been divided into Provinces with distinct Provincial Councils, what shall be the form, constitution, and jurisdiction, of those Councils. Thirdly, that the present General Council, which will have a controlling power over the Provincial Councils, however they may be constituted, contains none of the element of the representative principle. And lastly, that a change in the constitution of the General Legislature of the colony may shortly be expected to be made by the British Parliament, but what will be the nature of that legislature this Council are entirely in the dark. Under such circumstances, Sir, the bill now before the Council must be viewed, not by any means as complete, final, or perfect; but, looking to existing circumstances, and to the limitation of our powers, on the one hand, and to the liberal nature of the elective franchise proposed by the bill —4o the absence of a property qualification for members—and to the frequency of their election, as being a measure as comprehensive and liberal in its character as may, at present, be prudently enacted by those to whom the power of legislating on this subject has been so unreservediv confided. Reserving, Sir, the details of the bill for consideration in committee, I will now proceed to offer some observations on its principal provisions. Taking them in the order in which they stand, the first to which I would direct the attention of the Council, is that which provides that the Provincial Legislative Councils shall consist of a single chamber. Believing that the opinions which may be expressed by the members of this Council on that subject will not be without influence in determining the nature of the Constitution of the Supreme Legislature, I would desire not to be misunderstood in giving my assent to a measure for constituting a Council with a single Chamber. On principle, then, and with reference to the constitution of the General legislature of the colony, I have no hesitation in expressing a decided opinion in favor of a double Chamber. But with reference to the particular question before us—the constitution of the Provincial Legislature-seeing that it has a limited jurisdiction, that it is of a subordinaie character, subject to the authority of the General Legislature ; and believing that, at present at least, there would be a difficulty in filling a double chamber in so many Provinces, I think it desirable that the Provincial Legislative Councils should consist of a single Chamber. I now come to the consideration of that part of the bill which enacts that one-third of the members of the Council shall be appointed by the Crown. Yielding to no man, Sir, in a desire to see the princiciple of representative self-government brought into practical operation within this colonv, T cannot but think that some of the supporters of that principle have attempted to carry it beyond its legitimate limits. To claim fo? the scanty population of a newly settled dependency, founded at the cost of the parent state, the absolute .power of disposing of its unoccupied territories, and the exclusive and uncontrolled power of legislation throughout its limits, appears to me to be claiming that which, on whatever other grounds such claim may have to rest, cannot fairly be claimed as being a practical application of the principle of self-government. I believe, Sir, that a densely peopled country like Great Britain, needing extensive fields of emigration for its overflowing population, has no little interest in providing that the unoccupied territories of its dependencies should be disposed of to the greatest advantage, not only for the thousands who may first have landed on its shores, but for the millions who may be expected to succeed them ; and also in providing that the laws to be enacted in such dependencies shall not be of such a character as to repel from its shores the overflowing population of the parent state. For this reason it has always appeared to me to be, not only the right, but the duty of an Imperial Government to retain to itself a certain amount of influence in the Councils of its dependencies, so long at least as those dependencies continue to possess unoccupied territories available for emigration. On this ground alone, and for the

sake of Imperial interests, 1 am myself prepared to support the principle that the Crown should retain to itself the power of at least being heard in the Provincial Councils of New Zealand. Nor is that the only ground on which that principle should be supported. I believe, Sir, that wherever there is responsibility, that power should accompany it. Now whatever may be the constitution of the colony, the Government will always, and very naturally, be looked to. and to a certain extent held responsible, for its peace, order, and good government; and I would maintain that such responsibility cannot fairly be imposed upon any Government, unless the Executive possess some power in the framing of its laws; and, therefore, on that ground also, the Executive Government of New Zealand ought to be represented in the Councils of the colony. But there remains to be considered yet another reason why in New Zealand, iu particular, Great Britain should retain to herself some share in the exercise of legislative authority in this country. I allude, Sir, to the existence of a numerous, powerful, and intelligent native race; the owners of by far the greater part of the soil of the country —fellow-subjects with ourselves—and, as such, entitled to all the rights, powers, and privileges, of British subjects. Now, to give the European colonists the exclusive and uncontrolled power of legislating for the colony, would not be to confer upon the people of New Zealand the power of self-government, but would, in effect, be to give to the European minority the power, not only of governing themselves but the whole of her Majesty’s subjects in the country. The existence, then, of the native race presents a consideration which can never be overlooked in determining the nature of the Constitution to be established in New Zea~ land. Under the peculiar circumstances with which we have to deal, I think there are but three courses open for our adoption : —either to extend to the whole of her Majesty’s subjects in this country, without distinction of race, equal political privileges ; or to except the native race from the legislative jurisdiction which may be granted to the European colonists ; —or to adopt the course proposed to be taken by the Bill now under the consideration of the Council. With a sincere desire to see them fairly treated, I have never been one of those, Sir, who have either entertained or expressed any maudling sentimentality in favor of the natives of New Zealand ; but I think that we should but ill discharge our obligation towards them were to confer upon them political powers, which they not only do not desire to possess, but which, for want of preparatory training, they are, for the most part, at present unprepared to exercise, and thus attempt to rid ourselves of our responsibility for their substantial good government, by conferring upon them the theoretical, but I believe in such case, the illusory power of governing themselves. Neither would I desire to see so broad a line of demarcation drawn between the two races as would in effect be done if the jurisdiction of the local legislative authority were confined to the European colonists alone. Seeing, then, that the natives of this country are, as a body, at present unfit to exercise the elective franchise with advantage either to themselves or the country at large—believing that they would be impatient of the uncontrolled dominion of their Enropean fellow subjects, but believing that, having ceded their independence to Great Biitain, they are content to be governed by the justice and wisdom of the Crown, I think that Great Britain would best discharge the responsibility she has undertaken in favor of a people who have freely confided themselves to her justice and good faith, by carefully and gradually admitting them to El participation in the exercise of political power—retaining to herself, in the mean time, such a degree of influence in the colonial legislature as will enable her to initiate and advocate such measures as may, from time to time, be required for promoting their advancement in the social scale. For this reason it is that the measure now proposed for the consideration of the Council makes no distinction between the two races, while, at the same time, it is so framed as very gradually to admit the native race to a share in the exercise of political power ; and, by providing that a portion of the legislature shall be appointed by the Crown, thus secures to the Crown that influence in its Councils which is necessary to enable it to fulfil the responsibility which it has voluntarily undertaken, and raoraliy incurred. For any one of these reasons, Sir, I think that the Imperial Government ought to secure to itself the power of being heard in the Councils of its dependencies —and the whole of these reasons, taken collectively, present to my own mind an irresistible and unanswerable reason why Great Britain should retain, to herself some influence in the Provincial Councils of New Zealand. I would now direct the attention of the Council to that provision of the Bill which enacts that the mode of election

shall be by open voting. With my present knowledge and experience of the people of this country —neithei hastily acquired nor limited in range, I feel that I should be offering them a studied insult if I were to propose to protect them, in the exercise of any political privilege, by the secrecy alleged to be secured by the ballot. But it is not merely from taste or feeling that I should be opposed to secrecy in the exercise of political power, for I believe it to be at direct variance with one

of the first principles of political science. When political power is not distributed on x . the principle of universal suffrage—when a portion of the community are content to forego the exercise of political power, and to see it vested, it may be, in a minority—that portion of the community, so excluded from power, have still, I would contend, an undoubted right to know how that power is exercised by those on whom it has been conferred. To vest political powe', then, in a portion of the community, and to enable them to exercise that power in secret, is not only to confer upon the electors, but to subject the whole community to the dominion of irresponsible power. But there is another reason, partly of a local and partly of a general nature, why secrecy is uncalled for and impolitic, I believe, Sir, that at present the people of New Zealand are in prosperous circumstances, and of an independent spirit, by no means likely to be influenced in the exercise of any political privilege which may be conferred upon them, by either bribery or intimidation, And should the time, Sir, ever arrive, when any considerable portion of this community shall become so dependent in circumstances, and so mean in spirit, as to be open to venal influences in the exercise of a public trust, it will then be time to consider, not whether they shall be screened and encouraged in the betrayal of that trust, by the secrecy of the ballot, but whether, consistently with the welfare of society—and consistently with any sound principle of government —such persons are fit to be trusted with any share whatever in the government of their fellow men. Entertaining these views on the subject, I rejoice in having the opportunity of thus publicly expressing my cordial approval of that enactment in this Bill which emphatically declares that the mode of election for the vincial Councils of New Zealand shall be by open voting. I come now to that part of the Bill which dispenses with any property qualification for the Members of Council, except such as is required for the general body of electors, While it must be admitted that this is a somewhat novel enactment, I think that both on principle as well as with regard to the circumstances of the country, and to the proposed constitution of the Council, that it is an enactment deserving the favorable consideration of the Council, I care not, Sir, how careful this Council may be in conferring the elective franchise on those who may possess the well-grounded claim of fitness for its exercise, But having ascertained and determined who may safely be trusted with the power of electing their own representatives, it appears to me to be a direct infringement of the very principle of representative government to limit the range of their choice by an arbitrary rule, founded on the possession of a property qualification. For it is to be remembered that the mere possession of property is not the only qualification required, but it is looked upon as a test of the possession, on the part of the owner, of the other necessary qualities. In an old settled country, I admit, that such a test is as trustworthy as any other which could easily be devised. But in a new and prosperous colony, where it is the rule, and not the exception, for the industrious class rapidly, and in a few short years, to become independent, and not unfrequently to change places with the rich— the mere possession of properly is no longer a reliable test that its owner posseses the education, integrity, intelligence and ability necessary in those who may be trusted with the power of making laws for the government of their fellow men. Far be it from me, Sir, to underrate the possession of property, but, with Englishmen, and without any enactment on the subject, I believe that property always has had, and I believe always will have, a due share of influence in the exercise of political power. Iu a small community, then, where the range of choice must, under any circumstances be small, to limit that range still further by an arbitrary and delusive test, is not only an infringement of the representative principle, but would have the effect of depriving the community of the services of many of those best fitted by their talents and character for exercising a powerful and beneficial influence in the councils of the country, On the subject of the elective franchise I will trespass on the time of the Council with very few remarks. Although not founded on the principle of universal suffrage, the franchise adopted by this Bill will be found, practically, to fall but little short of it, so far at least as regards the European colonists—but with this great advantage ; if the principle of universal

suffrage were adopted by the Council, and fairly carried into operation, we should not only be conferring upon the majority of the people of this country political powers which at present unprepared to exercise, but we should be committing the curious anomaly (the natives being the more numerous of the two races) of subjecting the civilized to the dominion of the uncivilized race. But under the provisions of the Bill the natives will, by degrees, be admitted to a share in political power, at the same time that every sober and industrious immigrant, when he shall have been long enough in the colony to become acquainted with its wants, will be able, by the savings of his industry, to purchase the qualification, and so become entitled to the franchise prescribed by the Bill. Having considered the constitution and composition of the Council—the mode of election of its members—their qualification—and the qualification of the electors, I will now’ proceed to offer a few remarks on the limitation proposed to be placed on the jurisdiction of the Council. It may be within the knowledge of honorable Members that by the Constitution of 1846 it was provided that the Provincial Legislatures should possess a general power of legislation, subject only on eight or nine •enumerated subjects to the controlling power of the General Assembly ; while the jurisdiction of the General Assembly, instead of being general, was confined to such eight or nine enumerated subjects. Itwas immediately seen, that, under the operation of such a legislative system, that there might be as many different laws on the same subject, in one and the same colony, as Provinces into which the Colony might be divided. This objection was stated and generally concurred in, when the “ Provincial Councils Ordinance”, now in force, was under consideration by the Legislative Council in 1848; and I have reason to believe that the arguments then made use of, have not been without influence with the Home Authorities ; for not only have the restrictions imposed by that Ordinance on the jurisdiction of the Provincial Councils been confirmed by the Crown : but her Majesty’s Secretary of State —the author of the Constitution of 1846— has himself concurred in the objection ; and has himself suggested that an addition should vc made to the number of subjects to be withdrawn from the jurisdiction of the Provincial Legislatures, with a view to avoid as far as may be the evils referred to. I think therefore that the Council will see the expediency of excluding from the jurisdiction of the Provincial Councils, the several subjects enumerated in the 29th section of the Bill. Whilst on the subject of the limitations to be imposed on the jurisdiction of these Councils, although it may be travelling somewhat out of the order I had prescribed to myself, I may perhaps be permitted to call the attention of the Council to the 24th section of the Bill which provides that the Laws to be enacted by the Provincial Councils shall not be “ repugnant to the Laws of England.” I believe, Sir, it has been objected that such a restriction is an uncalled for and vexatious limitation on Colonial Legislation: for myself however I have never been able to concur in that Objection. It has never appeared to me to be an unreasonable thing for an Imperial Government to retain to itself the powerof legislating for the Empire, or of providing that the laws ui its uependencies, shall not be repugnant to the general spirit of the laws of the parent State. But apart from this general view of the subject and to come to a more practical consideration of the case, when I remind this council that it is itself prohibited from maxing laws which may be repugnant to the '■ law of England, I shall have said enough to prove that it would be a legislative anomaly first to establish a Tribunal of subordinate and inferior jurisdiction, and then to exonerate it from a restriction to which the superior Tribunal is itself subjected. And when I ' further remind the Council that by the Constitution of 1846, it is enacted that the Laws to be made by the Provincial Legislatures not be repugnant to the Law of England I believe that the Council will agree with me • in thinking that it would be unwise to remove this provision from the Bill. I have now, Sir, fully, freely, but I hope temperately, stat- - ed the grounds on which I think that the leading provisions of this Bill are entitled to the favourable consideration of the Council - arid it now only remains for me to apologize to them for the length at which I have trespassed on their time, and to thank them, which I do

very sincerely, for the patience with which they have listened to my statements. lam quite aware that the opinions I have expressed may be deemed of little worth or entitled to little ’ Weight, and that many of them may be at ■ < variance with the opinions of other members of this Council, but I have not on that account shrank from giving them expression, feeling the utmost confidence that these opinions will receive from this Council, the same fair, tolerant, arid candid consideration which each mem-

her would desire for his own. But unimportant as these opinions maybe, the Council may be assured that they are not the hasty, ill considered opinions of one careless of the welfare of New Zealand, but that they are at least the the sincere convictions of one who always has, who still does, and who I believe always will, take a livelyinterest in watching the progress, and in endeavouring to promote the prosperity of the Country. (Cheers.) The Lieutenant-Governor said, —I rise for the purpose of seconding the motion of the honourable the Attorney-General of New Zealand, that the Provincial Councils Bill be now read a second time, and I do so because I believe it to be the duty of every officer acting under any Government to give his full support to whatever measures affecting the policy of the administration the head of such Government may deem essential, either for the proper conduct of the administration, or for promoting the general interest and welfare of the community. But at the same time I deem it not unbecoming my position to express some of the views which suggest themselves to me in reference to the particular measure now before the Council, and I also would not willingly give a silent vote upon a question of so much importance, and involving as this does the groundwork of the future political institutions of the country. The chief feeling which I entertain in reference to this Bill is one of regret that it was not enacted in IS4B in the place of the Provincial Councils Ordinance, No. 1, Sess. 9. I believe that had such been the case it would then have given general, and I think I may say so far as New Munster is concerned/ universal satisfaction to all classes and to all parties ; and it would then too have afforded in its working a fair test of the value ans suitability to New Zealand, or otherwise, of the system of Provincial Councils; which test certainly cannot be said to be given by the operation of Ordinance No. 1, Session 9, as during the two years and half that Ordinance has been in existence a Provincial Legislature has only once met foi the despatch of business in New Munster, and not at all in the Province of New Ulster. I wish I could feel that the same universal satisfaction, which I believe would have been given by the enactment of this measure in 1848, would yet be experienced by its enactment now, but I cannot realise this to myself. It appears to me that the lapse of nearly three years, and the changed circumstances of the Province, have created a different feeling in the public mind, and one which I fear will render the measure before the Council less palatable to them now than it would have been in 1848. This change of feeling may, I think, be traced to two causes. First* the lapse of time which has brought the period when the Act suspending the Constitution of 1846 will expire, so very near that an impression naturally prevails that if that Constitution is remodelled, it will not be in a less popular form than that ancient constitutional one prevalent prior to the commencement of the nineteenth century, which has been recommended by a Committee of her Majesty’s Privy Council, and which, in point of fact, . was adopted by the Crown and sanctioned by Parliament in the case of New Zealand in the Constitution of 1846. The other cause, operating to produce the change of feeling which I have alluded to, may be found in the progress of the Province itself, and in the establishment in it of the new and important settlements of Otago and Canterbury, circumstances which have brought more home to the colonists of the various settlements the conviction that, isolated as those settlements are from each other, and disunited as they are in matters of local interest, Provincial Councils do not afford that medium of local administration which they are so anxious to obtain. I believe, therefore, that the Colonists of New Munster generally would rather have only one General Legislature for the whole of New Zealand, than in addition to it a Provincial Council which, meeting at one settlement only, would not afford a large measure of local self management to each settlement of importance. They appear to me to be rather anxious for Municipal Institutions with extended powers and privfleo-es than for the creation of subordinate Legislatures, and I cannot better express the opinion which I believe extensively prevails on this subject than by quoting a short extract from an address which was presented to your Excellency by a portion of the Nelson settlers, and which, with the permission of the Council, I will read— For a country like New Zealand, offering here and there upon its coast tracts available for settlement separated by formidable physical barriers, it seems to us that a form of government which should confer upon the several dis-r tncts large powers of dealing with all local questions, would be the most satisfactory and efficient. The Municipal, using the word in its widest and most ancient sense, appears to us the form best adapted to the requirements

of this country. Provincial Councils do not fulfil the desired end, and are cumbrous, expensive, and ostentatious. For unless the Provinces of New Zealand were multiplied to an amount which would entail upon the colony a ruinous Government expenditure, it would be impossible to divide it in such a manner as not to include within the same limits districts of dissimilar interests. And such districts would require local enactments of a different nature according as their predominant pursuits were commercial, pastoral, or agricultural. * * * Looking to the very great differences, physical as well as social, which distinguish the Northern from the Middle Island, to the great extent of natural pasture in the latter, and the nearly total absence of native inhabitants, it would almost appear as if they were intended by nature for two separate colonies. But, abstaining from pressing this point further upon your Excellency’s consideration at present, and looking upon New Zealand as at present constituted as one colony, we would suggest that one central Legislature and Executive would be quite sufficient for every purpose of good government. Local peculiarities might be met and satisfied by the Municipalities of the districts, the consideration of all subjects of a general nature, and affecting the colony as a whole, being reserved for the General Legislature. The employment of steam vessels upon the coast would remove all the obstacles which at present exist to this form of government, and entirely supersede the necessity of Provincial Councils.

These sentiments I believe to be fully shared in by the settlers of Otago and Canterbury, and to the general principles enuntiated, I cannot but cordially assent, and I should have been glad, therefore, if any measure could have been brought forward during the present session for creating such Municipal Institutions, and for placing at their disposal a certain proportion of the revenue of each settlement for local purposes. For the reasons, then, which I have mentioned, I believe that the state of feeling in this Province has so far changed from what it was in 1848, on the subject of Provincial councils, that the Bill now under discussion will not, I fear, be so favorably received (if passed) as it would have been in that vear. I fear, too, that this will be still more the case than I had even previously supposed, since I learnt from your Excellency’s opening address that it was the intention of Her Majesty s Government to pass an Act during the present session of Parliament creating a General Legislative Council for the whole of New Zealand, but, as I gathered inferentially, not regulating or defining the nature or character of the Provincial Councils, but giving full powers to the General Legislature to modify or alter the subordinate Legislatures to any form they may think fit. It is, therefore, possible that as the Act of Parliament may be received by the end of the present year, any General Legislature which may be called together under it might alter or modify the form of Provincial Councils which this Bill w’ould create, even before any one Provincial Council shall have been assembled under it. On the grounds then which I have stated, I cannot but express my regret that this present measure was not enacted in 1848, or that it is not now postponed for the consideration and decision of the General Council which may be called together under the new act of Parliament which it is understood will be passed during the present session. I regret it also because, when I remember the feeling which exists in the Province in reference to what is called nomineeism, or the nomination of members of the Legislature by the Crown, and that this feeling has been so general and so strong as latterly to prevent s altogether the Local Government from getting together a Provincial Council under Ordinance No. 1, Session 9, I am unable to satisfy myself that there may not be some room to doubt whether the same occurrence may not take place in reference to the measure before Council, and thus the object of the measure may possibly be defeated though the Bill itself be passed and become law. With these general observations, and expressing my cordial concurrence in the liberal provisions contained in the Bill before the Council on the subjects of the nature of franchise required, the system of direct representation and the duration of the Councils, I beg to second the motion that the Provincial Councils Bill be read a second time.

Hon. C. Dillon, although opposed to the ivision of the colony into Provinces, which be regarded as cumbrous and expensive, gladly accepted this Bill since, the Council being bound to provide for legislation in the Provinces, the measure before them provided or he expression of public opinion by establishing a liberal franchise. He should prefer, to a cut and dried constitution from home a nucleus round which the settlers might work’ and make a constitution for themselves, and should support the bill, because it gave them tue power ot beginning this work. Mr. Cautley agreed with the two previous speakers, and objected to Provincial Councils to which the settlers of Nelson were general-’ ly opposed. The memorial from Nelson showed that the inhabitants of that settlement

desired municipal councils havin enact such laws as’might be madoV”" M I cial councils. At the same til (MBi not oppose a hill containing So 8 be Mj |l provisions as the present one I a greater amount of power than 3 pected from Parliament. Mr. Bell thought it a matter of dutv ■ give a silent vote on a question of y " Ottl importance to the interests and welra/ II settlements, and as it undoubted! tlles! grave responsibility for a Council * as » as that Council was, to introduce ?? I change in the constitution of the c 1 ’ I was incumbent, he thought, upon the 1 11 - allow the measure now before them n ° lLi 1 advanced to its second stage without ' 0 I discussion of its principles. His h I learned friend, the Attorney-General'Jfv l I Zealand, had indeed fully explained h’ able speech, the object and scope of t! ‘‘ I sure, and by the clear and concise ord! which his statements had been divid i H nau muvii .aiiiitaivu me UISt’USSiOD, ffef ' '' proceeding further however, fi e L j ,‘ t!i 9 state that he should have strongly obiecH * -/i the introduction of the present Bill J* H should not have given his assent tothes'eM H reading, if he could have hoped that the * sure, which it was not improbable was * I the consideration of Parliament, for COD [ I ring representative institutions onNew?- I land, would contain more, or even as lib i H provisions as that now before them; but' - thought there were good reasons for the contrary. It would be in the ■ of the Council that the Act suspending Lori I Grey’s Constitution was on the point of ej piring, and that Her Majesty’s would have to get another constitution enact. 3 ed, so as not to allow Lord Grey’s to revive B Now, it could hardly be expected that aij | form of constitution passed by Parliament S’ New Zealand would be more liberal than lh| 3 which last year had been conferred upon tlj other Australian Colonies. On the contrary, the latter having been more fully discussed ij both Hooses than any previous colonial measure, it was next to certain that it would b; & taken as a model for the New Zealand Aci if indeed a still less liberal one were not ' adopted. For among the members of Pat. liament who had actively engaged in colonial | affairs, and in particular among those vbiK had devoted their attention to this colony, B there were many, and those the most abbf and influential, who had long ago proposed measures even far less liberal than the Aus- | tralian Constitutions Act of last session, Il 3 would not be forgotten, for instance, that Sir ffl William Molesworth, in his celebrated props- • sal for the government of New South Wales, had supported a very high qualification fa | members of the colonial assemblies, namely, £2,000 in land for the lower house, aoi £4,000 in land for the upper. Such a qua- s| lificatioo, or any thing approaching it, va t|| manifestly impracticable for this country; and it was not unreasonable to expect that the same persons who would press for sueba qualification would equally attempt a high 3 electoral franchise, which would also be stterly unsuited to New Zealand. While he | hoped therefore to see the Bill now before the Council rendered yet more liberal than it war, still, as it stood, it was better than the Australian Act, and much more liberal than tbs proposals of the colonial party at home: B on that ground he was prepared to vote for g its second reading. But in giving that vote, g he was desirous not to be misunderstood as I expressing any concurrence in the system cfg Provincial Governments: on the contrary,te g thought that in islands like these, in which I the settlements would necessarily be scatter- g ed along an immense line of coast, with very I infrequent communication between them, B scheme of Provincial Governments wm |sJ ß cumbrous and expensive to be of any beneSl'K and, in the long run, he did not doubt MB every one would agree that, without resorlitiW to the bureaucratic system of centralization ■ existing in France and other European states, ■ the best form of constitution here would I that which gave to one general govern®® 11 E the direction and control of general questionSi k and left all local matters to the manage®®” g of municipalities in each settlement. Sl ''B that Council was not sitting there to deci E whether there should now be provincial g veruments or not: the supreme authority 0 g Parliament had long ago divided the colei ■ into provinces, and the practical lueSlJ1 ueSl J| )e g therefore was, how best to legislate fo r I Provinces actually in existence. The P I vision of, perhaps, the greatest import a " c g this Bill was that which authorized the f E to nominate a portion of the members o ■ Provincial Councils. Now, while he & ’ I agreed with the learned Attorney-^ 6ll ./ I that the Crown, which had to protect t'l. terests of our unrepresented Nati ?e K should have a voice in the making 0 E here, he entirely differed with him 1 ■ opinion that it should have the ® ■ minating any membersnot

sible for their share in the proceedings of the Council. He thought it a legitimate argument to use, that the whole power of legislation should not be vested in the hands of a minority of the Queen’s subjects ; but an illegitimate extension of that argument to insist upon power being conferred, in a halfRepresentative Council, on persons not responsible for its exercise.. The hon. and learned mover had dwelt at length on the safeguard which a number of Nominees would afford for the interests of the Natives being cared for in the legislation of the Provincial Councils ; but this Council would remember that the Bill itself expressly prohited any legislation inflicting disabilities on the Native race, or affecting them separately from the Europeans. And even if that restriction had not been sufficient, the Gover-nor-in-Chief had ample power, by the exercise of the Crown’s veto, to prevent any injustice to the Natives. He should oppose, therefore, the introduction of nomineeism into the proposed Councils, but would not refuse his assent to a portion of the members silting in them in an official character. With respect to the absence of a property qualification for members he entirely concurred. But while he would give that provision his cordial support, he could not equally approve of the proposed franchise, which was not sufficiently extended. He feared he would stand very much alone in the Council in any attempt to introduce universal suffrage; but he would nevertheless express his deliberate opinion in its favour, and his objection to the franchise being conferred upon one and withheld from another. But while he did not hope that the principle of universal suffrage should be adopted by that Council, he did trust they would so extend the franchise, as to give it to every real colonist of good character in the country. If the “ household ” suffrage proposed were to to be altered so as to give the franchise to every one in the occupation of a piece of land also, it would enable many colonists to vote who were industrious and frugal, and who had preferred to invest their savings in agriculture, and in the purchase of stock, rather than build fine houses for themselves. Numbers of these, who were perhaps the best settlers in the country, would be excluded by the present bill; and as he believed, from what had passed at an interview between his Excellency and a deputation of settlers at Nelson, that the Governor’s real intentions had been to give a larger franchise than the bill gave; he hoped the Council would give true effect to those intentions. Reserving to himself the right of introducing in committee such amendments as would meet the views he had expressed, he would conclude by giving his assent to the motion for the second reading. Sir George Grey said he had not intended to trouble the Council with any remarks on the measure before them, as he had so repeatedly explained his views with regard to this measure in his despatches to the home Government as to render such a course unnecessary, but he was desirous on one or two points to set himself right with the public. The Lieutenant-Governor had passed some some severe censures, not only on the measure before them, but also on himself. In answer to those censures he would state he had never solicited the support of any member of the Council to any measure of the Government, or sought directly or indirectly to influence his opinions; it was not necessary, therefore, for the Lieutenant-Governor to state that he supported the measure from a sense of duty. During the period he had the honor to administer the Government of this colony it had been his good fortune generally to be on good terms with the members of his Government, and even on terms of personal friendship with them. He bad gone to them for advice, hehad carefully weighed their suggestions, and could confidently appeal to them whether any, even the slightest, change of temper had ever been manifested by him on their differing from him in opinion. He therefore thought it ought to be understood he did not consider there was any necessary duty on their part to support his measures. With reference to the censures which bad been passed on him by the Lieutenant-Governor for not introducing this measure in 1848, he would not enter again into the discussion of this subject, but would state that he considered it an important part of his duty to provide that this country took no harm. Hon. members must know the European convulsions that had taken P ace, the imminent danger that had existed of t e interruption "of peace, when he had lived lorn month to month in expectation that the loops would be removed from the country ; ey must remember the financial difficulties w ich existed on his assuming the government e Colony. Under such circumstances, he sieved it to be his duty, as q great officer of

a great Empire, to prevent harm, and he would appeal to hon. members whether that trust had not been fulfilled. What harm has happened to any European ? Are the settlers impoverished ? What evil has overtaken the Native population ? Are they discontented? He believed he had done his duty in not hurrying on changes, and he had the faction of appealing to the past, to the prosperous state of the European settlers, to the order and general tranquillity of the Native population, in proof of the correctness of his views. He did not wish to claim the merit of this. How nobly he had been seconded by those who had acted with him could only be known to himself, and to those persons whose support and assistance he had received ; but he claimed this merit to himself, that he left them free scope for their exertions. As soon as he saw the country was in a fit state he bad not hesitated to propose this measure. But he was now told he ought not to have proposed it at this time, when Parliament was about to legislate upon the subject of representative institutions for New Zealand : the answer was, that the condition of these colonies appeared to be greatly misunderstood both by Parliament and the Government at home. He thought he was right in coming to this conclusion from what had taken place in Parliament, and from the Australian Bill, which had been passed during the last session. Knowing that it was intended during the present session of Parliament to pass an Act for regulating the government of this country, if be (Sir George) had consulted his own selfish ease, if he had regarded his own private interest, he need not have stirred in this matter, but have suffered things to take their course. But believing Parliament to be misinformed on this subject, he had prepared the broad outline of a measure for their information, which was so liberal in its provisions, and in the extension of the franchise, as to be likely to give offence to powerful parties at home. In endeavouring to serve the interests of the Colony, he had exposed himself to the risk of displeasing influential parties at home, and of not satisfying all parties here. He believed it was owing to the representations he had made that the franchise had been extended in the Australian Colonies Bill, and that the system of directvotinghad been substituted for the system of votingindirectly through corporations. He also contemplated two measures which appeared almost extraordinary in these times; Istly, requiring no qualification from a member, but that he should be a voter; and, 2ndly, the payment of members, a measure in which at first be stood almost alone, but the necessity for which was beginning to be I generally admitted. He had sent a copy of i the Bill to the Home Government, so that it i would be received before the opening of Par- I liament, and if he was deserving of censure ' for what he had done, he could only say he : had acted from a sincere desire to promote i the welfare of the country. He was also desi- ; rous of correcting one or two errors which some j of the members who bad spoken had fallen : into, in stating that large municipalities were ; desired, which they asserted were not expen- j sive, and may be made numerous : they bad also stated that great dislike was entertained to Provincial Councils, but he believed if the provisions of this measure were properly understood it would not be disliked. If it were understood that these Provincial Councils would eventually lapse into municipalities with extensive powers over the revenue, he thought these Councils would become highly popular, especially when it was known that there was no necessity in the different Provinces for an officer of higher rank than that of Superintendent. He (Sir George) would further re> mark on the censure which bad been cast upon him for not introducing municipalities, that there did not appear the least desire for them ; and so strongly was this indifference shown, that when on a former occasion he had thought of doing so, and had mentioned his intention in this Province, he had been strongly desired not to do so. He might at least claim this merit, he had been the first Governor of a colony who had proposed the division of the country into hundreds, and the appointment of wardens to be elected by the inhabitants, for the rnanagemant of the affairs of those hundreds ; he might claim the merit of being the author and introducer of the system by which ail the rents and one-third of the land fund was placed at the disposal of these wardens for the purpose of local improvements. In contemplating these great changes, when he had found the colonists indifferent or indisposed to their introduction, he had nevertheless gone on accumulating funds for large public charities, so that Corporations, instead of being a mere machinery for taxing the inhabitants for improvements, might start with funds at their disposal, and that these Institutions might be placed on such 3 footing as to call out the

sympatnies of the highest and noblest minds in the land. He could conscientiously assert he bad done his utmost to introduce these Institutions into the country • he had that very morning put the last touches to a measure for a municipality at Auckland, which had been prepared with the assistance of his friend the Attorney-General of New Zealand. In referring to the past, he could unhesitatingly say he had done his utmost to get municipalities introduced into this Province. He had been very anxious to constitute a municipality at the Hutt, but owing to the want of information which prevailed, he had experienced the greatest difficulty in inducing the inhabitants of that fertile district to accept it. Taking himself to task on this subject, therefore, and submitting his conduct to the severest self-scrutiny, he (Sir George) did not think he was deserving of censure'for the course he had pursued. (Cheers.) The Lieutenant-Governor explained that he did not intend, in his observations, to cast any censure on the Governor, and said that although bis Excellency had on no occasion requested his (the Lieut.-Gov.) support in any particular measure, he did not thereby feel exonerated from this duty. His principal object had been to convey to his Excellency the prevailing feeling of the settlers of this Province, and with no intention of casting censure on the present measure, to express his opinion that a Bill which would have satisfied the settlers in 1848 might fail to satisfy them now.

The Colonial Secretary of New Zealand wished to state, in the strongest manner, the absence of all interference on the part of the Governor-in-Chief as to the course pursued by the members of Government, and the desire of his Excellency that they should on all occasions use their own discretion as to any measures before the Council. He considered tho present measure as a link of that chain of the development of the government of New Zealand, which, commencing with the first Council, limited in its numbers, had been gradually extended with the increase of population and the advancement of the colony. He was opposed to universal suffrage, which hsd been advocated by an hon. member,, and would support the adoption by the present Council of the principles embodied in this bill.

After 3 few words from the Colonial Treasurer of New Munster, the Bill was read a second time.

In answer to Mr. Cautley’s enquiry for information as to the proposed extension of the Canterbury block, Sir G. Grey said that any information on this subject, in the possession of the Government, rested, he believed, solely on his own personal knowledge. All he knew regarding it was that the Agent of the Canterbury Association had read to him the draft of a letter, m which, as far as he remembered, was a recommendation that an application should be made for an extension of the block of land which was to be subject to disposal under the peculiar rules of that settlement. He had, however, heard rumours on the same subject from other sources. As far as he was informed of the intentions of the Home Government and of Parliament, he believed that they were in no way desirous that this particular mode of disposing of lands should be forced upon the inhabitants of this country. In fact they were solely desirous of promoting the -welfare of the inhabitants of New Zealand, and of consulting, m as far as practicable, their wishes. It therefore was the duty of those persons who disliked the portion of the Islands they lived near being subjected to such regulations, to state their objections to them. The points which appeared to require attention were these: A district containing nearly three millions of acres, inclu- j ding within its boundaries Banks' Peninsula, and embracing one of the most fertile districts in New Zealand, which contained also —before the present regulations were esta-blished-many persons of a different faith from that of the Church of England, was placed under the control of the Canterbury Association, and then regulations were made, an important feature of which was, that until three millions of pounds were paid for the purposes, of the Church of England, the whole of that district could not be used, as their necessities required, by civilized man ; nor could any part of it be used for these purposes, until the proportionate part of the three millions of pounds which was due under these regulations upon that part was paid over for the purposes of the Church of England : even for depasturing purposes the land could not be used under the present regulations, except at a rate which, calculating that a hundred acres would feed thirty sheep, required a payment of nearly 2d. per head per annum for the same pur-

poses. Now, as he understood from rumours, it was intended to ask that a further block of perhaps 3.000,000 or 4,000,000 of acres should be placed under the same reregulations, so that the case would then be that before the whole of this block could be used, seven millions of pounds must be paid for the purposes of the Church of England —and no part of it could be used until the proportionate amount due on that portion had been so paid. This appeared to involve questions worthy the consideration of all classes in New Zealand, as the power of the humbler classes to acquire properties for their families was involved in it, the amount of the produce of the country was involved in it, and the extent and value of its commerce greatly depended on it. The only argument he had ever heard used in defence of this arrangement was, that Great Britain had done much for New Zealand, and therefore had a right to make such regulations for the disposal of its lands as were for the benefit of the population of the whole Empire. This argument he admitted in its fullest extent; but he could not consider it for the benefit of the mother country that one of the most fertile portions of the Empire should be closed by such restrictions, which, in as far as he understood them, placed obstacles in the way of industrious men raising themselves from a state of want, by the use of lands which, in their wild state, were useless to mankind. As a Churchman he viewed this attempt with the utmost alarm, although on this subject he spoke with great diffidence, as he had the highest reliance upon the judgment of many members of the Association, indeed two Right Reverend Prelates belonging to that Association were his intimate friends; vet it did not appear to him—at the time that so large a portion of the population of Great Britain were in such distress—to be in accordance with any rule of Christiamtv, that the poor of the earth should have closed against them by such restrictions so large a tract of fertile country which a bounteous Providence had placed at the disposal of the human race. It did not appear to him to be in accordance with the principle that those who preach the Gospel should live by the Gospel, because it wrung contributions to a Church from those who were not friendly to that Church, but whose absolute necessities compelled them to buy land necessary for their operations; and because it made the clergy, in the early stages of the scheme, dependent for their support, not upon their flocks, not upon the members of the Church, but solely upon the amount of land to be sold; so that, almost involuntarily, men might be led to aid in the sale of lands—a duty foreign to their calling. He thought, therefore, that this system of obtaining an endowment was objectionable, whilst he thought the endowment itself far too large, and likely ultimately to introduce habits of sloth and negligence into the Church, and thus to be injurious to its own welfare. He would far rather have seen the virtuous and industrious, who could find no place at home, encouraged to occupy such a country upon terms which would have enabled them easily to acquire homes for themselves and their families, and readily to develope the resources of the country, and to have seen a busy, active clergy, by acts of kindness and Christian virtue, gaining from the members of their own Church in that fertile district a love and gratitude which would readily have yielded ample endowments for all their wants. He feared the present system would injure the Church ; it led men incautiously, even in the publications issued under the authority of the Association, to hold out the clergy as a feature of attractiveness, and even to use ■such language in support of what is termed ! the religious principle, as that “ the merest land speculator has an interest in the Canterbury Bishoprics.” He thought that such arguments, whilst they might gain endowments for the Church, must injure the very religion they were meant to support. It therefore behoved those who objected to having the lands in their vicinity placed under such regulations to state their views upon the subject. The Council then adjourned.