LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 612, 14 June 1851, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

I Wednesday, June 11, 1851. 8 e Council met at the usual hour. •• Chappy 8 l’ av ’ n c been read by the Colonial I Com a^’a ' n S ra ’th moved the consideration in 1 j J 1 the New Zealand Company’s I Claimants Bill. ‘ \ I read ? su SB es ted that the preamble be j n Paragraphs, as divided, in order that

the attention of the Committee might be given to each paragraph. Alter the preamble had been agreed to with a few verbal amendments and the two first clauses considered, Mr. Dillon moved the adjournment of the Committee ; so many persons were interested in the bill that he thought it very desirable it should not be hurried through the Council. Sir George Grey, without wishing to force members, was very desirous of hearing their opinions on the next clause, and suggested the reading of the 3rd and 4th clauses together in order to bring on a debate on them. The clauses having been read, Captain Smith proposed the Ist of January, 1853, as the limit within which all claims to land should be sent in, by persons in the colony, and to extend the period'in favour of claimants living out of the colony to Ist January, 1854. Mr. Bell was of opinion it would not be expedient to allow tins question to be left open any longer, a certain extension of time might be given to persons in England, but he would fix a short limit lor persons residing in the colony to give notice of their claims. Sir George Grey felt inclined, as a better mode of procedure to that proposed by the bill, to conform to the usual practice of the Government in issuing titles to land. The Government was not at present in possession of the records of the New Zealand Company’s transactions with respect to lands in this settlement, but he had reason to believe these records would shortly be given to the Government, which would then be in a position to issue grants to those entitled to land in the usual way. The public interests required that this question should be immediately disposed of, and he (Sir George) thought that nearly all the claims in the colony might be settled within a few months, It should be borne in mind that these were bond fide claims to land, that the individual preferring a claim had actually paid a sum of money for what Parliament declares the Government is to give him. Cases may possibly occur where persons, from weakness of intellect or supineness, might not take steps to prefer their claims, and he thought the better course would be if any claim were not preferred within a certain limited period, the Governor should send the claim to the Commissioner and that it should be dealt with by him as if it had been sent by the individual. He apprehended the greater part of the claims wouldpresent no difficulty and might easily be disposed of, and be would throw’ out this suggestion as preferable to the mode laid down in the draft of the bill, as by the course he proposed if, from any oversight on the part either of the individual or of the Government, the claim was not sent in to the commissioner, it would not be forfeited but the individual land-order would represent so much land whenever produced. He (Sir George) would be inclined to allow only six months to persons in the colony, and fifteen months to persons living out of it for sending in their claims. There was no reason to suppose the Commissioner would do more injustice than the SurveyorGeneral. If the individual did not send in his claim to the Commissioner, the Crown would do so, and the Commissioner’s decision would be final. Such a course would be entirely consonant with the present practice and and would form part of a uniform system. It would also, be thought,remove an appearance of harshness which the clause, as it now stands, at first appearance presents.

In answer to an observation from Mr Bell,

Sir George Grey said the precise words need not be considered now ; some general amendment might be prepared which would afterwards be submitted to the Committee. Mr. Cautley alluded to the case of certain persons at Nelson holding leases of lands forming the private estate of the Company which they believed to be valid and binding, but which it was reported were illegal ; as the holders of these leases were for the most part of the labouring class, and as they had spent considerable sums on these lands he thought it would be of importance to frame such a clause as would meet the peculiar circumstances of their case.

Mr. Bell explained that many of the leases alluded to had been granted by the Agents of the Company acting under the authority of a Power of Attorney, and the question had been raised, and a strong opinion given, as to whether a lease granted by an Agent of the Company without having the corporate seal of that body affixed to it was valid. The suggestion, if acted on, would protect a class of persons highly deserving the consideration of the Council. The Committee then adjourned. The Attorney General of New Zealand gave notice of his intention to move the following amendment on the New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants bill, viz : —the following addition to the 7th clause : — Provided always—that in every case in which there shall have been two or more

claimants for, or in respect of every such land order, contract or scrip, as aforesaid, such report shall state the names of the several claimants, the nature and grounds of their respective claims, and the evidence which may have been adduced in support of the same respectively. and the following addition to the 19th clause, to be inserted after the words Colonial Government— . And by the Colonial Treasurer of the Province of New Ulster in or towards the purchase of cemesne lands of the Crown in any part of the said Province of New Ulster, not being within the limits of any Hundred, which may from time to time be offered for sale by or on benalf of the said colonial Government.

interpretation ordinance. The Attorney-General of New Munster moved the second reading of Interpretation Ordinance. The bill having been read a second time the Council went into Committee on this bill. After some discussion the several clauses were agreed to except the third and seventh, the consideration of which was postponed. CENSUS BILL. In the Committee on this bill the Colonial Secretary for New Munster proposed several new clauses, so that the bill would stand as follows, the two first clauses would fix the times tor taking the census, then power would be given to appoint collectors, one penal clause would impose all the penalties inflicted by the bill, and a provision at the end would name the clauses, to avoid tautology. The changes were so extensive that he thought the bill had better be reprinted. Hon. C. Dillon was' of opinion a clause should be inserted, making it penal for collectors delaying the returns; complaints had also been made by individuals of their private affairs being made known by the collectors, who should be punished by a penalty for doing so.

Sir George Grey thought the effect of imposing a penalty would be to lessen the punishment. The infliction of a penalty would be a dangerous principle to affirm. The proper course would be to make a complaint to the Executive, who would inquire into the circumstances, and, if necessary, punish the offender by dismissal. He (Sir G.) had never been able to prevent persons from gossiping, and had often heard things repeated which he was sorry to bear, he had even beard his own intentions reported as to certain subjects before he had made his mind up on them.

The Colonial Secretary of New Munster thought if the punishment were to be inflicted by the Executive, they would be constantly exposed to petitions for a remission of the penalty, which would not be the case if the penalty were inflicted by the law. Sir George Grey objected to the infliction of a penalty; there was no reason why the persons employed should be exempt from their liability to punishment by the law the same as any other individual. The law only authorised them to ask certain questions, not to go gossiping about the country; but he thought it would establish a dangerous principle, if a person in the employment of Government were to be punished for divulging information he might have obtained in another way.

The Colonial Secretary for New Munster said the objection to giving the information sought for arose chiefly from the use which might be made of it; and the motive for imposing a penalty was to restore the confidence of the public on this point. The returns might be sent in sealed, and after the aggregates had been taken, the returns might be destroyed. The only object was to get rid of the disinclination of settlers to afford the information required.

Mr. Bell stated that the disinclination alluded to existed chiefly among the labouring classes at Nelson, and the true key to their reluctance to give information, was, that being for the most part uneducated persons, and of saving habits, they had no desire to be considered richer than they appeared to be; by and bye, when the immense advantage of statistical information was generally felt, this disinclination would be got rid of. Sir George Grey said the progress of the human intellect divulged some strange truths, an illustration of which was afforded in the course of the present discussion. It was stated by an honorable member that the only persons who have an objection to make these returns were the ignorant, the prejudiced, and the uneducated, and instead of supplying these with information, instead of endeavouring to remove their prejudices, the effect of the proposed amendments would be to say to them, you are required to answer these questions, and the person who asks them is under a penalty not to divulgeyouranswers,and here is the Colonial Secretary, who is an old friend of yours,going tobave these papers burnt as soon as he receives them. The effect would be to make such persons ten times more prejudiced than they were before; while future historians of New Zealand, in the absence of sta-

tistical records to refer to, w’ould say these people were so inquisitive that they destroyed their public documents because they were afraid to keep them. He thought the best course would be to ask such plain simple questions that no honest British subject need be afraid to answer them. 1 he bill was then ordered to be printed. INTERPRETATION BILL.

The Attorney-General for New Munster moved the second reading of this bill. The Council then went into committee on the above bill. The clauses were agreed to with the exception of the third and seventh clauses, the consideration of which was deferred to the next sitting. In answer to an observation of the Colonial Secretary for New Munster, the learned mover of the bill said he had no objection to postpone the seventh clause to the third reading. I Several notices of motion were given, and I the Council then adjourned, Mr. Cautley gave notice that he would move to morrow for Returns of the quantity of land sold by, the New Zealand Company in the settlements of Wellington and Wanganui, Nelson. New Plymouth, and Otago, with the price of. the same I per aepe or allotment; also of the names of the several districts in each settlement in which such lands may have been selected, together with the distance of such district from the principal town of the settlement to which it belongs, and the gross amount of land originally surveyed, and the number of acres selected in I each of such districts. Also, a return of all ; lands in cultivation, or preparation for cultiva- ! tion, in the above-mentioned districts, and the > amount of scrip awarded by the New Zealand ' Company, or their agents, in the above-named | settlements. I Several other notices of motion were given i after which the Council adjourned.

Thursday, June 12. The Council met at the usual hour. Prayers having been read by the Colonial I Chaplain, Mr. Cautley, in moving for the returns of the amount of land sold by the New Zealand Company of which he gave notice yesterday, said that only the gross amounts would be required ; in so important a bill it was very desirable the Council should have before them all authentic information the Government could give them, at present they could only speak as to hearsay. As to selected lands be thought a good authenticated map would be sufficient. Sir George Grey said that up to the prei sent moment the Government was not in possession of the records of the Company’s transactions in lauds in Wellington and Wanganui ; those at Nelson and, he believed, at New Plymouth bad been given up. At Otago, in consequence of a dispute between the Association and the Company, he thought the records would not be given up. As far as the Government was in possession of information required by the hon. member it would be furnished. In answer to a question by. his Excellency Mr. Bell said he could furnish an approximation to the quantities of land sold and prices paid at Nelson, which would be sufficiently accurate for the purposes of legislation. The Attorney General of New Zealand moved the first reading of the Provincial Councils Bill.

Sir George Grey said he would take that opportunity of presenting a memorial signed by three persens on behalf of a public meeting at Nelson for extending the franchise, and praying that the word ‘tenement’ should be substituted for ‘dwelling house,’ as many of the houses in that settlement were so bad as not to come within the description of the Act. The petitioners stated their reasons at some length and offered proofs of the correctness of their assertions. The petition was ordered to be printed. INTERPRETATION ORDINANCE. In the Committee on this bill the Attorney General for New Munster moved that the third clause be divided into two, after the word “swearing,” and proposed some amendments in what now forms the fourth clause. Sir George Grey explained that what had been done in the clause last proposed was to give the same power to the officer administering the Government of any Province as to the Governor in Chief of New Zealand. In many cases this might be found necessary while no inconvenience would arise from such power,as the chattel confers on the Governor-in-Chief the supreme power with authority to define and prescribe the powers of the Governors or Lieutenant-Go-vernors, so that by this clause they would have the fullest power io act in cases of emergency, while in ordinary cases they would be restricted by the instructions of the Governor-in-Chief, and he thought the Council in giving this power would carry out the intentions of the Home Government. The Attorney General of New Munster pursuant to notice moved an amendment on

the 24th rule of Council, that bills when passed be “ printed in duplicate” instead of “ engrossed” on parchment, and that after rule 25 a new rule be inserted to the following effect — When any bill shall have received the assent of the Governor the said duplicate copies thereof shall be duly authenticated by the signature of the clerk of the Council. The Colonial Secretary of New Munster asked the Attorney General of New Zealand when he would be ready with the Building Society’s Bill, as a wish had been generally expressed that it should be brought on at an early day. The hon. member said he had •only just received the bill referred to. NOTICES OF MOTION. The Attorney General of New Zealand gave notice he would move on Wednesday next the second reading of the Provincial Councils Bill. Mt. Hickson gave notice he would move to-morrow the resumption of Committee on ■Customs Bill. Notice was given of the following amendments in Committee on the New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill, — By Mr. Bell—to substitute the following for the 3rd and 4th clauses:—

3. Every person resident within the islands ■of New Zealand who shall be desirous of taking advantage of the provisions of this Ordinance, shall by himself or his agent on. or before the first day of January, 1852, give notice in writing to the Colonial Secretary of the Province of New Munster of his desire and intention so to do; and every person resident elsewhere who shall be so desirous as aforesaid shall by himself or his agent on or before the first day of January, 1853. give a similar notice in writing to the said Colonial Secretary of such his desire and intention. Every such claimant shall in such notice specify the nature of his claim to any such land as aforesaid, and whether the same shall arise in respect of such landorder, or in respect of such scrip as aforesaid, and whether such claim be original or derivative, and if derivative, on what title the claim of such person may be founded. 4. No claim to land in the islands of New Zealand, in respect of any such landorder, contract, or scrip as aforesaid which shall not have been preferred in writing to the said Colonial Secretary on or before the said first day of January, 1853, shall be deemed by the Colonial Government to come within the provisions of this Ordinance for the adjustment thereof, unless it shall be made to appear to the satisfaction of the Governor for the time being that any claimant preferring his claim after the said date was from some reasonable and sufficient cause unable to give the notice within the prescribed time: in which case it shall be lawful for the Governor to refer such claim to a Commissioner as hereinafter provided. and the following addition to the 9th clause, Provided always, that the lands, tenements, and hereditaments comprised in any such Grant shall continue and be subject to such equitable estates, charges, and liens, if any, created by the purchaser or purchasers named in the landorder, contract, or scrip to which the same shall relate, or any person deriving title from, through, or under him, her, or them, as at the date of such grant shall be subsisting, or be then or thereafter capable of taking effect, and the rights and interests of the parties interested as or through the purchaser or purchasers named in such land-order, contract, or scrip (inter se) shall remain unaffected thereby.

By Mr. Cautley—the following amendment on the first part of 16th clause, It shall be lawful for the Governor to issue to any person who may be found by such Commissioner to have purchased an allotment of land in any of the settlements of the New Zealand Company, Scrip to the amount of the original cost of such purchase of every separate allotment as duly ascertained and reported upon by such Commissioner. Provided always that m case of one portion only of an allotment as aforesaid being offered to such Commissioner for exchange for Scrip, an appraisement of the value of the portion of the allotment to be retained by such purchaser shall be duly made or caused to be made by such Commissioner, and a balance of Scrip shall be given for the portion of the allotment so to be surrendered which, together with the value of the portion of the allotment to be retained, estimated as aforesaid, shall not exceed the original cost of such allotment. Provided always, &c. and the following additional clause —- And whereas by the second clause of an Ordinance passed in the tenth year of the reign of her Majesty Queen Victoria, and entitled “ An Ordinance to repeal the Crown Grants Ordinance, Sess. 5, No. 3, and to impose fees for the delivery of all Crown Grants,” it is enacted that a fee of twenty shillings shall be paid on the delivery of all Crown Grants, Now be it enacted that the said fee of twenty shillings to be received under the authority of the above recited Ordinance for Grants from the Crown for land purchased prior to the date of the passing of this Ordinap.ce in the settlements of the New Zealand Company, shall be chargeable in the first instance with expenses incurred in the issuing of such Grants, and the balance, if any, shall be applied to the introduction of immigration to the settlement in which the land so granted shall be situated exclusively, any thing in the above recited Ordinance or any other Ordinance to the contrary notwithstanding. By Mr. Cutfield —the insertion of the following words in the 14th clause after the words “ entitled to the same,” :— It shall be lawful for such person within calendar months after the passing hereof to select an equal quantity of land in any district which may be appropriated to that purpose by

his Excellency the Governor, or in the event of such person failing or declining to make such selection then it shall be lawful, &c. Captain Smith gave notice he would postpone till Tuesday the further consideration in Committee of the New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill, to allow sufficient time for the preparation of the returns moved for. The Council then adjourned.