LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 611, 11 June 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Tuesday, June 10, 1851. The Council met at the usual hour. Captain Smith, in moving the second reading of the New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill, congratulated his fellow colonists on the very great alteration and improvement which would be effected by this measure, especially in its removing two great evils which had been so very generally complained of, one, the want of Crown titles to their land for which they had now waited more than eleven years, the other the pernicious effects of the lottery system, by the operation of which properties were scattered and rendered comparatively useless. An opportunity would be given by this bill of consolidating those properties, more people would be induced to go into the country, and immigrants would feel a security in the immediate receipt of titles to their land they never could have felt before.

The motion was seconded by the Attorney General for New Ulster.

Mr. Cautley, while agreeing with the general provisions of the bill, thought that it combined two distinct principles which it would be desirable to keep separate; in allowing purchasers to take scrip for their lands it appeared to enunciate a different principle from the preamble of the bill, and he wished to object to this principle before going into Committee. f < The Attorney General for Naw Munster wished to offer a Jew remarks in Support of the motion. The present was by far the most important measure ever submitted to a Council of this colony. Its object was to remove the evils which had existed for the last ten years with respect to titles to land, substituting order for disorder, certainty for doubt, and making that which was perplexed plain. It ffas impossible for him to exaggerate or even adequately to describe the grievances and annoyances that had been suffered by the settlers for want of titles to their lands, and he had the satisfaction of reflecting that the task of description was in a great measure rendered unnecessary in the presence of so many who had witnessed these grievances. The pop ll ' lation of these settlements had decreased more by this cause than by any other. Hundreds and thousands of persons had landed m this country with pieces of paper from the New Zealand Company, called land-orders, conferring no titles to land, and at most but an equitable interest in land ; aud in seeking redress, many were astonished to find they could not sue the Agent of the Company! that their action must be brought against the principals at the other end of the worl • These pieces of paper conferred nothing but® right of litigation against certain persons m Europe, an indefeasible right of inheritance to the holders of them, for themselves and their children, to a lawsuit against these persons. The most streo uous efforts had been made to remedy t’ 3 state of things, and a report had been P u ,„ lisbed in the shape of a book, which front I'° size he might call a monstrous book, C0IltaI ? e ing a correspondence without end; but 1 efforts of the colonists and the efforts at ho® to remedy these evils, though unceasing, a been in vain, aud in fact they were just as from the point so ardently desired as 1 were ten years ago. It was therefore imP sible for him to exaggerate the effect B

great and important a measure. To use the words of an eloquent writer on the subject of recent legal reforms, it would make that

which has hitherto been a sealed book a living letter ; it would render that which was perplexed and obscure plain and intelligible, that which has been used as an engine for oppression a fixed standard of rights as to real property, and an imperishable record of the titles of the whole community. Sir George Grey explained that in the bill in its present form there was no mingling of subjects essentially different. It could not be contended that an individual, who purchased land at auction from the Government and had received a title to his land, was entitled to scrip, as the result of such a course would be to destroy all the records in the country and create an absolute confusion with reference to titles to land. But where nothing has been done, it would be necessary to begin de novo, and first to give titles to land of which the purchaser was in possession, and then to issue scrip for the remainder. In certain districts, for example in the neighbourhood of the Horokiwi, the surveys were never completed, and the purchaser could not he expected to keep land be had never seen, there would still therefore remain an obligation unfulfilled. He therefore.thought it necessary to combine the two objects in one, which would go on concurrently together. The purchaser would state his whole claim, and would receive a grant for the land he had got and scrip for the remainder, and he thought if this system were carried out in no country would titles to land rest on a surer basis. Since the subject was last under discussion, he (Sir George) had received a despatch from the Lieutenant-Go-vernor of New Ulster stating that the prayer of the petition from Auckland that the holders of scrip might be allowed to purchase in any part of New Ulster, might be complied with without injury to the province if this permission were not available near the town of Auckland. Such a permission would interfere with the rights granted to the Wardens of Hundreds already established, and would have the effect of stopping public works, the funds of which had been advanced by the Crown on the security of the land •fund, but this limitation would only extend |o within a few miles round Auckland, I Mr. Bell in a long speech reviewed the nstory of the New Zealand Company in its elutions with its purchasers and the Goveruncnt, and excused the Company for not havng issued titles to its purchasers, as it was inly in 1848 they had any title given to hem. While acknowledging the evils caused ly the want of titles he thought it would be letter, instead of dwelling on the past, to conider what would now best meet the question, de then referred to the various claims by diferent purchasers, in some cases the surveys lad been stopped, in others land had been seeded only on a map without any possibility »f its being seen, in others, as at Waitera and Wanawatu, the land was not in the possession if the Company or Government, and it was lardly fair to say the contract had been fulilled in such cases, and therefore to issue crip would be perfectly fair and an essential neasure for fulfilling the contract. He alluled to landorders in which a right was conerred to selection in any part of New Zealand. and observed that such claims at this itne would be highly injurious and inconvelient. After considering at some length the peration of the bill with reference to all these ■ases, he concluded by stating that in his opinion no proposal could be so satisfactory as |he principles contained in this bill, though he fright he disposed in committee to offer objections to some of its details. fe Sir George Grey thought it neccessary to tf er an explanation in reference to what had Jpn said by a previous speaker that certain orders issued by the New Zealand Com- | a ny conferred a right to select land in any art of New Zealand, and that that right still übsisted. The law of the case was this. The >ght of selection existed in certain limited 'stricts either of land granted to the Comany» or of land purchased by the Crown and 1 ac ed at the disposal of the Company* These [stricts included a certain portion of this pro'nce but a much larger portion of it was not ed 18 pos^'‘on " These lands had now reverto the Crown subject to those contracts, f a that the Council was required to do iti S | to a k e gooJ any s P ecific contracts exng between the New Zealand Company e f Us Purchasers. His Excellency then al red ,0 ’he act of P ar l’ arae nt to shew the i on re f °i the contracts which upon the revernnn°. 1 r e i an^s t 0 the Crown it was called l u . ° and sa ’d that it would be the °ntraci t "h e .^° UnC V liberally to fulfil these Biion th S “ U . t “ tvouldnot be prudent to throw t ‘ e pu . blic any further debt. The land W nav^ S already mortgaged for £268,000 ■fanv ent t 0 tbe ew Zealand Company. Pas dnt^ rr ? n gf nQents were made by which it gat debt min ® rst t 0 ta ke upon themselves fey be L and en t 0 entail such a d ebt as Ure d hy other obligations entered

into by the New Zealand Company it would open such an illimitable field as he (Sir George) could hardly form a conception of. This extended view would throw on the Government the whole onus of the obligations of the Company, but the Government could only undertake to complete specific contracts between the Company and its purchasers in any way most advantageous to the individuals and to the community. Mr. Bell .explained that a person holding a claim of which he could not compel the fulfilment would have a remedy against the sellers; and the Government would only satisfy his claims by giving scrip, He should consider it a dangerous course to pursue to give extra compensation to indefinite claims; whenever a value existed the contract should be fulfilled but he certainly contended that nothing but a defined contract should be entitled to specific compensation. Sir George Grey said the question resolved itself into this, a person might come with a contract to select certain lands, and the answer of the Crown would be, we have no power over the land : as a great number of persons both within and without the colony were interested in this question, his object in making these remarks on his (Mr. Bell’s) extended views was to prevent any erroneous impressions as to the intentions of the Government, and to be as clear and explicit as possible. The bill was then read a second time. CENSUS BILL. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary for New Munster the Council went into committee on Census Bill. A discussion arose as to thebest time for taking the census; the 31st of March was proposed by the two Colonial Secretaries. Captain Smith thought December would be the best time as far as sheep were concerned, as after shearing an account of the stock was accurately taken. Mr. Bell was of opinion the great object to be attained would be to fix some month when the roads were open and the means of communication easy, and that the eud of the year might prove most convenient. Sir George Grey thought the Council were losing sight of the original intention of the bill. It was proposed that a census should take place in 1851 throughout the British empire. The time for taking it was originally fixed for October, but Parliament had altered it to March. It was impracticable to take the census at the time of year proposed in this colony, and this might also occur in other colonies, bat it would be necessary to take it in some part of the present year. Having fixed this point the Council might afterwards determine whether the census should be taken annually or at longer intervals.

After some discussion it was determined the census should be taken triennially. The committee then adjourned. On the motion of the Attorney General for New Munster the Bill for shortening the language used in Ordinances was read a first time. NOTICES OF MOTION. The following notices of motion were then given for the next meeting of Council. The consideration in committee of New Zealand Company’s Land Claimants Bill by Captain Smith. / The resumption of committee on Census Bill by the Colonial Secretary for New Munster. Second reading of Bill for shortening language of Ordinances by the Attorney General for New Munster. The Council then adjourned to to-morrow.