LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 610, 7 June 1851, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Thursday, June 5, 1851, The Council met at the usual. w-q 1 Prayers having been read by the Colonial Chaplain, on the motion of the Attorney General for New Munster, the Council went into Committee on the Debtors Writ of Arrest Bill. On the preamble being read Mr. Hickson urged as an objection that as the Judge in this settlement lived three miles out of town, and as the road to his house was a very bad one, it might often happen that immediate access to him could not be had so as to allow persons to avail themselves of the powers of this bill. Sir George Grey thought this objection referred more to the first clause, the preamble merely recited the nature of the bill. On the first clause being read Mr. Hickson moved that the words “ front the settlement” be added alter the words “ Judge of the Supreme Court,” The Colonial Secretary for New Munster was cf opinion that when the Judge was still in the settlement, it might be necessary to grant this power to the Registrar of the Supreme Couit on occasions of emergency. The Attorney General for New Munster explained that the intention of the bill was to reserve to the Registrar of the Supreme Court the power formerly granted to the Cofflfflissioner of the Court of Requests ; he saw no objection to Mr. Hickson’s amendment, if k the opinion of the committee it made the clause, more explicit. Sir George Grey wished to direct the atten* tion of the committee to a very important al* teration made in the reading of the clause by the substitution of the word settlement for c0 * lony ; if the alteration were adopted that pad of the clause would then stand “ for the ap* prehension of any person so intending to leave the settlement.” The Collector of Customs said that unless some such amendment were made, important debtors, men owing large 'sums of moneyi would go from one settlement to another an eventually leave the colony, so that no rente y would be afforded by this measure. , The Attorney General, in reference to t ® observations of the last speaker, said he kfl“ of several cases in which debtors pretending to go to other settlements had afterwards e the colony. On the second clause being read , Mr. Hickson moved an amendment to effect That every person leaving the Colony she” give 48 hours previous notice to the Coll oi Customs of his intention, and inflicting .. j. nalty of £10(1 on any master of a v f s , n ot. from the Colony any passenger who. given such notice.

In the discussion which ensued Sir George Grey observed that a similar law to the proposed amendment prevailed in many other colonies, and that application had been made to him for its enactment here, but this objection presented itself to his mind, that the tendency of legislation in the present day was to discourage persons from affording too great an extension of credit by throwing on them a proportionate risk, and that it was not fair to put the whole community under disagreeable restrictions to encourage others to go into debt. This law existed in Western Australia and of Good Hope, and he had been memorialized to pass such a law in South Australia; it was a law very much desired by the mercantile portion of the community, but he thought it opposed to the general interests, and the enactment of such a measure would be taking a step in retrograde direction. The Colonial Secretarys of both Provinces and the Attorney General of New Munster expressed themselves strongly opposed to the amendment, which not being seconded, was lost.

The other parts of the bill were agreed to with sortie amendments, and the Attorney Genetai having brought up the report of the committee, the amendments were adopted and the committee adjourned. CUSTOMS BILL. Mr. Hickson moved that the Customs Bill be considered in committee. Mr. Cautley said that at the last sitting of the Council His Excellency had laid on the table a petition from certain persons at Nelson on the subject of the duties on tobacco, and he thought it advisable, in the absence of actual representation, that every petition presented to the Council should be read in order, as far as possible, to make known the expressions of opinion made to the Council, he would therefore move that the petition be read. The petition was accordingly read.

Mr. Bell rose to propose an amendment to the effect that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, to inquire and report upon its provisions, and especially upon the schedule attached to it. The proposed alteration in the mode of levying the Customs revenue was one of so much importance that it was essential it should receive ample consideration by the Council; and the schedule of articles, in respect of which a fixed duty was substituted for the existing ad valorem duties, was one which required the strictest and most minute investigation. He confessed that he for one was utterly incompetent, with the information at present before him, to form any correct opinion on the propriety of inserting the articles named, much less on the propriety of the rates proposed to be levied ; and as other members not connected with commerce were, equally with himself, unaware of the exact ground on which the schedule had been drawn up, he thought the Council should not hurriedly legislate upon it. He moved therefore— That the Bill be referred to a select com - mittee, with instructions to report how far the proposed duties may be an equivalent for the ad valorem duties at present collected, the committee to consist of the Collector of Customs, the Colonial Secretary for New Munster, Mess. Hickson, Cautley and Beli.

Sir George Grey did not see what object was to be gained by such a reference as was proposed by the hon. member; if bis object were to satisfy himself that the calculations had been correctly made, still those who were not on the committee would not be more satisfied than they were now. A calculation of the duties had been made in both Provinces, and the results agreed so nearly as to confirm their general accuracy. The calculations had been made in this Province in two ways, first i on the average value of the importations and I the 10 per cent, ad valorem duty, and secondly | °n the amount of duty paid and the duty cal--5 elated. He apprehended that persons must | m a great 1 measure take such calculations on bust. In this case they had been made by a - committee of mercantile men, the Government I iiad also caused them to be recalculated by Hs own officers, and the Government was satisfied that the calculations were fair and good. He therefore could see no advantage to be arri ved at by the course proposed. After a further discussion, in which Mr. Mr. Hickson, and Mr. D. Bell took part, Sir George Grey said there was nothing to gained by the proposed amendment, as after re port was made by the select committee, it Bt fi* be the duty of the Council to dis8 each article separately. It would be a * u^*^erence the schedule had been t blank, as they would have to start from e same point; explanations would still be le ?uired on each article. ove C°l' ector of Customs said he had gone satisf Calculations very carefully and was to th 160 the y Were 80 c, i° se an approximation diffi« e ? reB ! nt sca k of duties that it would be Mr n° I ? prove them * Gelino • perce * vei i there was a strong 6 against the appointment of a committee, ...

but he still felt it his duty to press his amendment.

On a division there were for the amendment three, against it twelve, the amendment was therefore lost.

It was then proposed to consider each article in the schedule seriatim. On the first item

The Colonial Treasurer proposed as an amendment that ale and beer in casks should be exempt from duty, and would supply the deficiency by a large increase of duty on spirits; It was easy to understand the effect of the comparative cheapness of spirits on newly arrived immigrants in increasing drunkenness, particularly among those from the country districts in England where, from the high rate of duties the use of spirits among the labouring population was almost unknown. The amendment was not seconded.

The Collector of Customs proposed that where the duty was in fractional parts of a penny per lb., to prevent unnecessary delays in calculation, it should be expressed in the schedule at the same rate per cwt. On the item coals being proposed. Sir George Grey said he thought coals should be admitted duty free, and the deficiency made up by an increased duty on some other article. He felt satisfied that coals would become one of the objects of prime necessity in this colony •, in the introduction of steam on our coasts an extensive supply of coals would be indispensable, and no coal yet discovered in New Zealand was found to be available for this purpose. Again, if smelting works were conducted on an extensive scale in this country, a large quantity of coal would be requisite; and the copper ore of New Zealand contained so small a proportion of metal as to render it important it should be smelted on the spot. Steam machinery might also be used in uiuerent parts of the country for sawing timber and for other purposes ; in fact so many interests depended on a cheap supply of fuel that it was clear on his own mind it would be necessary to take off the duty. The Collector of Customs stated the duty hitherto received on coals in this Province was inconsiderable.

After some further discussion it was agreed that coals be struck out of the schedule and added to the articles imported free of duty. A discussion arose on the proposed duty on grain, the Colonial Treasurer thought the weight per bushel should be stated, as the same duty was levied on articles, one of which was twice as heavy as the other; and moved as an amendment that the duty be levied on grain “ per bushel of 561b5.” Mr. Hickson said the difference between the price of oats and wheat was very trifling, oats varied from 4s. 6d. to 6s. per bushel, and wheat was seldom higher. The Collector of Customs objected to the duty on imported grain being taken by weight, this would not be a fair way of levying the duty as imported grain might be damp and damaged, and in this case would have to pay a higher duty. Sir George Grey thought there was some misunderstanding, the amendment seemed to assert that one bushel of oats was not equal to one bushel of wheat, but that 11b. of oats and 11b. of wheat were equal. The Colonial Treasurer explained that the importers of grain paid duty on the measurement and sold the grain by weight. Sir George Grey was more puzzled than ever by the Colonial Treasurer’s explanation, the question was whether equal weights were of equal value, if they were not, nothing would be gained by the substitution.

Amendment lost. On the duty on articles of Iron being proposed 1 ,

Sir George Grey inquired if any quantity of hollow-ware was taken by the native population ; he thought the duty on anchors and chain cables should be as low as possible, as an encouragement to the colonial trade which was of great importance, but he was unwilling to see any unnecessary reduction on articles consumed by the natives who ought to contribute to the support of the Government from which they received protection. The Collector of Customs considered there was a great defect in the present Customs laws, he thought that anchors and chains and stores for coasting vessels should be free of duty ; he would not allow them to be imported duty free, be would leave the duty on importation as it stands at present, but would allow the duty when these articles were taken out of bond for use.

The Attorney-General for New Munster said it was contradictory to legislate for protection in a tariff on free trade. After some discussion in which Mr. Bell and Mr. Carkeek took part, Sir George Grey said,he thought the question was misapprehended. He agreed with the Collector of Customs that they should go to the fullest extent in allowing every thing requisite for the outfit of vessels engaged in the coasting trade. Then a wide question was raised

which it might be worth while to consider fully hereafter : the present question was not one of protection but of revenue. New Zealand was a group of Islands where hardly any communication existed between the numerous settlements which had been formed, and which essentially depended on the shipping interest for their prosperity. By fostering the coasting trade and encouraging that particular interest, the Legislature would not be protecting it to the disadvantage of any other but would really benefit every interest in the community. The question was whether they would raise a revenue from that interest, or whether, by promoting it in a legitimate manner by a remission of duties on some articles it mainly required, they would assist in rendering New Zealand a great maritime country. The islands abounded with timber and afforded great facilities for shipbuilding, and from the nature of the neighbouring islands, their inhabitants might be induced to take vessels from this country as the natives at Auckland had done. The question was simply one of revenue, and toplace it on its widest basis, if the revenue were to be raised only on tea tobacco and spirits it could hardly be contended they were protecting other interests ; and the consideration might well arise whether it was not worth while to increase, if necessary, some duties payable on articles of luxury, if by such a course a growing and most important commerce was fostered and developed in the manner proposed.

On the item munitions of war being proposed it was agreed they should be struck out of the Schedule : his Excellency observed they would then be brought under the operation of the 10 per cent duty; they were virtually prohibited and only introduced with the permission of the Government, and when introduced would pay only 10 per cent duty. A good deal of discussion arose in committee whether some articles, as honey, syrup, and split peas, from which very little duty was collected should not be struck out, as in the opinion of some members encumbering the Schedule, and placed among the articles admitted duty free. The Committee then adjourned. Friday, June 6. The Council met at two o’clock, and went into committee on Customs Bill. Mr. Hickson proposed to reserve the consideration of the duty on spirits, as it would probably be found advisable to recommend an increase of duty. On the duty on tobacco being proposed Mr. Cautley proposed an amendment with the view of producing a discussion on this subject, He directed the attention of the Council to the petition of the sheepowners of Nelson, and strongly urged on their consideration the reasons advanced in that petition for a remission of the duty, if only for a limited period, to enable them thoroughly to eradicate the scab from their flocks, which, from the present high rate of duty, they were unable to do. In many cases a loss of one-third to one half the wool was occasioned by the disease. The value of wool from the Wairau was £lO,OOO, and if half this sum were lost from the prevalence of the scab, the injury to the community would be greater than the loss of revenue through the remission of the duty, which would be a great boon to the sheep farmer. It would not be difficult to frame such regulations as would effectually guard against any attempt to defraud the revenue, and if this boon were granted there would be an immense increase in the quantity of tobacco consumed in New Zealand. He proposed to insert the word ‘ undamaged’ before ‘tobacco.’

Sir George Grey thought the insertion of the word ‘ undamaged’ would hardly meet the object proposed. The whole matter had better stand over for further consideration, whether tobacco should be taken out of bond for sheep washing, or whether it would be better considerably to lower the duty. An argument in favor of a reduction of the duty was that in New Zealand it was impossible to prevent smuggling, and tobacco was an article more easily smuggled than any other. A large number of the whalers that frequent the harbours of New Zealand were temperance ships, they did not carry spirits, but had always an immense quantity of tobacco on board, and to such an extent was smuggling carried on that the natives came now to consider smuggling in tobacco as perfectly harmless, and though they gave notice to the Government of any attempt to smuggle spirits or ammunition, they took no notice of smuggling tobacco. Another argument in favour of a reduction of the duty was that the growth of tobacco was not a profitab!e pursuit for this colony, if the duty was high it might enrich a few individuals, but by lowering the duty it would prohibit the growth of tobacco by preventing the diversion of capital to an employment not profitable to the colony. The Council would have to consider whether the duty should be raised, and damaged tobacco be allowed free for sheep washing, as was the case in some of the Australian colo-

nies, or whether the duty should be lowered and all pay alike. It would also be desirable to ascertain whether a low duty would have the effect of defeating the experiment of attempting to eradicate the scab, and perhaps it would better to make some enquiries on the subject. The list of enumerated articles in the schedule having been gone through, the Committee was adjourned. LAND VUND APPROPRIATION BILL. Lieut.-Col. M'Cleverty moved the consideration in committee of the Land Fund Appropriation Bill. The title and preamble having been disposed of, Col. M‘Cleverty moved the following amendment on the first clause— Provided always that not less than one-third of. the sum, so authorised to be applied as aforesaid,, be expended by such corporation withir. the limits of the hundred within which such sum shall have arisen. Sir George Grey said the intention of the amendment was to provide that the wardens of hundreds may not be overborne by the municipality, and to secure a portion of the proceeds of the lands sold in the hundreds being spent -on the roads and other improvements in the country where they were most wanted.

Mr. Bell, while acknowledging the great propriety of the clause in its amended form, still considered the proportion proposed to be reserved for appropriation in any hundred was not sufficient, and should propose that at least one half of whatever sum was appropriated by the Government out of the proceeds of the sales in any hundred should be given to the wardens of such hundred. But a further question had arisen in his mind, after giving his best consideration to the Bill, and having consulted with other members, he would lay his views before the Committee. The Royal Instructions gave the Governor the power to make the appropriation, but it was not incumbent on him to make it; what he wanted to see was an obligation on the Local Government to - devote a specific sum out of the proceeds of sales in any one place to the exclusive benefit of that place, and under the sole direction of the inhabitants themselves. The declaration of a defined right to receive back and expend themselves a known proportion of the sales of Crown lands in their own districts would be of all others the greatest inducement to them to associate themselves into municipal corporations, and would thus accord with the tendency of all enlightened legislation, which was to encourage by every means in all communities the power and habit of directing their internal affairs. Sir George Grey said he would state the facts to the Council, leaving the law of the question to be decided by the proper officers of the Government. At present all public lands vested absolutely in the Crown. He (Sir George) had recommended a certain appropriation of them, namely, that one-third the gross proceeds of sales of land in any hundred should be given to the wardens of such hundred for making roads and other improvements, and had justified this appropriation by similar arguments to those made use of by the hon. member. He had used the further argument that individuals appeared to think they had no interest in the lands of the Crown, and were iudifferent to any attempt made by persons to get possession of them by improper means ; that by giving up a certain portion of the proceeds of the land sales to their management, people would be disposed to assist in preventing any misappropriation of these lands from the direct interest they would feel in them. The Crown had accept- f ed his proposition and had sanctioned the appropriation of one-third of the gross proceeds of the Crown lands as recommended by him. The Council could only empower the Governor to make such arrangements as were contained in this bill. The Council might address the Crown to make the arrangement permanent, but he thought if once the practice were to grow up generally, and a considerable number of hundreds had the power conferred by this bill it would not taken from them. x In answer to some further observations from Mr. Bell Sir George Grey said the effect of the present measure, with others now in operation, would be to place the whole of the rents of the Crown lands, and one-third of the gross proceeds of the sales of lands within the hundreds in the hands of the wardens ; so that, with the exception of the expense of surveys and of immigration, the Crown really gave up the whole of the proceeds of the land to the corporations and hundreds within which they were situated. Mr. Bell’s amendment was then agreed to, the report of the Committee brought up, and the amendments adopted. The Attorney-General for New Munster gave notice he would, at the next sitting, move the first reading of the bill for shortening the language used in ordinances. The Council then adjourned to Tuesday.